Hard To Forget, by Steve M. Yedinak Options

[Nam Quoc Son Ha]

Whether you dispute the fact that Vietnam controlled Khmer Krom for 250 years I don't care, all I know is that Vietnam has controlled that territory since 1750. So what if the French controlled Indochina fo around 80 years, even the French recognised that Khmer Krom was Vietnamese land and they simply held it as a "protectorate", a nice name for occupation.

France has never recognised Khmer Krom as Cambodian land but rather Vietnamese land. Thus there lays my name that Khmer Krom has been an inseparable part of Vietnam since 1750.

Do you really think that you people have any remote chance of taking back Khmer Krom? The UN don't give a toot about your claim nor the world cares about it. In fact, most of them don't even know of your claim to the land. Talking about the US, would they rather trade and be a good friend of a large country with 80 million people and vast human and natural resources or a country of some 10 million people (many of whom are illiterates) and poor as hell as a result of a brutal rule of a mad man?

[FKR]

Nam Quoc Son Ha,

This is what you wrote, "...even the French recognised that Khmer Krom was Vietnamese land and they simply held it as a "protectorate", a nice name for occupation.

Now compare what you said with what is written about Indochina in the Columbia Encyclopedia on line below. It is my hope that you will learn the truth about the status of the Khmer Mekong Delta. Also, please use the term "Khmer Krom" correctly. The place is called Kampuchea Krom which is formerly known as Nokor Phnom or Mountain Kingdom. In ancient time, the Chinese ambassadors called the place "Funan" which also means mountain. The French called it "CoChin China". The term Khmer Krom is not a place but the name of the Khmer people who have continously lived in the area for over 3000 years into the present.


The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.

Indochina

Fr. Indochine, former federation of states, SE Asia. It comprised the French colony of Cochin China and the French protectorates of Tonkin, Annam, Laos, and Cambodia (Cochin China, Tonkin, and Annam were later united to form Vietnam). The capital was Hanoi. The federation formed the easternmost region of the Indochinese peninsula (which it shared with Myanmar, Thailand, and Malaya) and faced E on the South China Sea. The cultures of Indochina were influenced by China and India. The centuries before European intervention saw the growth and decline of the Khmer Empire in Cambodia, the rise and fall of Champa, and the steady expansion of Annam. European penetration began in the 16th cent.; in the 19th-century race for a colonial empire, the French took (1862, 1867) Cochin China as a colony and gained protectorates over Cambodia (1863), Annam (1884), and Tonkin (1884). In 1887 they formed those four states into a union of Indochina, with a governor-general at its head; Laos was added to the union in 1893. In World War II, France was forced to accept Japanese intervention in N Indochina in 1940; the subsequent Japanese move into S Indochina (July, 1941) was viewed by the United States as a threat to the Philippines; it prompted the freezing of all Japanese assets in the United States and precipitated the diplomatic exchanges cut short by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Even before the end of the war, the French announced plans for a federation of Indochina within the French Union, with greater self-government for the various states. The federation was accepted in Cambodia and Laos. Vietnamese nationalists, however, demanded (1945) the complete independence of Annam, Tonkin, and Cochin China as Vietnam, and after Dec., 1946, these regions were plunged into bitter fighting between the French and the extreme nationalists, oftentimes led by Communists. The war in Vietnam dragged on for years, culminating in the French defeat at Dienbienphu. The Geneva Conference in 1954 effectively ended French control of Indochina.

The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Copyright © 2003 Columbia University Press. http://www.bartleby.com/65/in/Indochin.html


Show me proof with links that the area [Khmer Mekong Delta or Kampuchea Krom] was already agriculturally used by the Cambodians. Byron. Posted on Apr 21 2004, 07:45 PM

History of Cambodia: Pre-Angkorian Era

The Khmer Mekong Delta was called as Funan in the Chinese Chronicles. “The Chinese word “Funan” is the Chinese pronunciation by toponym for the Khmer word "bnam" (or phnom in modern Khmer) which means "mountain".” Funan was the first Khmer Kingdom and the Khmer have known it as “Nokor Phnom” or Kampuchea Krom in the present.

“There are evidences that Funan [formerly known as Nokor Phnom, aka Kampuchea Krom, and Mekong Delta] had once been a strong maritime state, actively involving in sea trades. Following the excavation at Oc Eo [O Keo], believed to be the kingdom's major port located in the modern Vietnamese province of Long Xuyen, the archaeologists found many artifacts which were trade goods and products from India, China, and even as far as those from the Roman Empire to the West.”

“Being an extensive trader, Funan should have been more or less a powerful naval state with people of learned mind. It was found that Funan had adopted many cultural aspects from India whose civilization had been highly developed several hundreds of years earlier. This was the result of their close contacts with the Indian traders who were also seafaring at that time. The Indian traders brought with them knowledge and thoughts as well as philosophy and religious beliefs which significantly aided the development of this native kingdom.”
“The importance of Indian civilization over this territory could not be overlooked. Even a myth of Funan itself suggested that the world was created by a "Naga" King, a Hindu water deity, who drank up the flooding waters, and the origin of Funan [aka Nokor Phnom] started from the marriage of an Indian Brahmin Kaundinya to an indigenous "naga" princess named Soma. According to the Chinese Chronicle, the Funan [aka Nokor Phnom] rulers brought in many Indians of Brahmin caste to their courts to help in their administration. It was a known fact that in ancient time the Indian Brahmins is India's highest caste who held all the knowledge responsible for the achievement of Indian civilization.”

“Apart from cultural elements and religious beliefs of Hinduism and Buddhism from India, the Funanese [aka Khmer] natives seem to learn the engineering skill as well. Evidences of aerial photographs taken in 1930 show that there were extensive irrigation system in various Funanese [aka Khmer] settlements. Their ability to turn swamps of Mekong River basin into productive agricultural ground implied that they had good knowledge in agriculture in addition to sea trades.”
“The process of what the Indian culture had influenced over any other nation was termed by historians as "Indianization". Although the Indian influence affected many aspects of Funanese [aka Khmer] political and religious structures, surprisingly it did not infiltrate deeply into the life of this native people of Funan. In short, we may call this as "partial Indianization", which was obviously inherited to its successor the Angkor Empire [aka Khmer Empire].”

“Funan [aka Nokor Phnom] thus had laid a basic foundation for the evolution of Angkor Civilization in later centuries.”

http://www.cambodia-travel.com/khmer/funan.htm

This post has been edited by FKR: Apr 22 2004, 09:51 AM

[akara]

Khmer Krom helped America in the Vietnam war? Then that means the Vietnam communist regime has a right to oppress Khmer Krom, since they helped the Americans kill Vietcong troops.

Nobody has the right to oppress anybody. Didn't you learn that in church? Or are you that slow or inhumane?

The Vietnam war was fought over two contrasting sets of ideals, not to punish the opposing side. Did the south throw millions of people into death camps to deserve punishment? No, of course not! They were only fighting for the chance to run the country as they saw fit. So they lose. You see this as a chance for the victors to oppress your compatriots and their allies? You truly are sick.

It seems odd that the Khmer King would give that land to the Vietnamese for just a princess if the land didn't seem useless to him.

It seems to me that you don't understand the meaning of friendship. Think outside of your hate-filled box, Byron. You can give a piece of land to have an ally in return. Give the ruler of the most powerful kingdom in South-East Asia a little more credit than that.


Great post, FKR. Very informative. Thanks.

This post has been edited by akara: Apr 22 2004, 03:34 PM

[angkorwat19]

It seems odd that the Khmer King would give that land to the Vietnamese for just a princess if the land didn't seem useless to him.

i'm sure that wasn't the king's wish to give land to the viet. i'm definitely sure it wasn't the people's wish to give up land. khmer people never experienced the baby boomer like viets and chinese do. that's why khmers never had a problem with shortage of land.

[Jotmaimamoreaj]

Show me proof with links that the area was already agriculturally used by the Cambodians.



" It seems odd that the Khmer King would give that land to the Vietnamese for just a princess if the land didn't seem useless to him."

Could you kindly provided evidence or proof of any documentations pertaining to khmer king given kampuchea krom to vietnam over the vietnamese princess? According to many historians the land was occupied by the Vietnamese duirng the time vietnam was fighting with china . From the imploring of the Vietnamese princess,I forgot her name, king jayjatha the 2nd allowed the vietnamese refugees and he supported the vietnamese troops to fight against chinese.KAMPUCHEA KROM WAS NOT GIVEN TO VIETNAM.


And who cares if that land belonged to Cambodians for over 2000 years.


-" Fact is it belonged to Vietnam since 1750."

Kampuchea krom was not belong to Vietnam since 1750. Vietnam were the new settlers and sneaky starting 1750. At those period the land was still Cambodia. But occupied by Khmer the indigenious people and the new settlers,the Vietnamese.


And there was NO U.N back then. Stealing land is only illegal after the U.N was formed so it can protect the soveign rights of a country.

So in 1945 when the U.N came to power that land was in possession of the French. The French being the owners decided to give it to Vietnam because when the French first came there they saw that land was Vietnamese land since it belonged to Vietnam since 1750 before the French arrived.

It legally belongs to Vietnam now. Ancient ownership doesn't mean anything to the U.N only the lands that are used after 1945 matters. If ancient ownership did mean anything, then the White americans would go back to Europe, Blacks in the Carribean would go back to Africa, and so on.

Why do you think people are protesting Tibet, because China took that land after the U.N was formed.



THE FRENCH DECIDED THE FATE OF KAMPUCHEA KROM WITHOUT CONSULTING WITH THE INDIGENIOUS PEOPLE OR WITH THE UNITED NATION IN 6-041949.

you have to understand kampuchea krom belong to khmer people.

[supernovasp]

Show me proof with links that the area was already agriculturally used by the Cambodians.



" It seems odd that the Khmer King would give that land to the Vietnamese for just a princess if the land didn't seem useless to him."

Could you kindly provided evidence or proof of any documentations pertaining to khmer king given kampuchea krom to vietnam over the vietnamese princess? According to many historians the land was occupied by the Vietnamese duirng the time vietnam was fighting with china . From the imploring of the Vietnamese princess,I forgot her name, king jayjatha the 2nd  allowed the vietnamese refugees and he supported the vietnamese troops to fight against chinese.KAMPUCHEA KROM WAS NOT GIVEN TO VIETNAM.


And who cares if that land belonged to Cambodians for over 2000 years.


-"  Fact is it belonged to Vietnam since 1750."

Kampuchea krom was not belong to Vietnam since 1750. Vietnam were the new settlers and sneaky starting 1750. At those period the land was still Cambodia. But occupied by Khmer the indigenious people and the new settlers,the  Vietnamese.


  And there was NO U.N back then.  Stealing land is only illegal after the U.N was formed so it can protect the soveign rights of a country.

So in 1945 when the U.N came to power that land was in possession of the French.  The French being the owners decided to give it to Vietnam because when the French first came there they saw that land was Vietnamese land since it belonged to Vietnam since 1750 before the French arrived.

It legally belongs to Vietnam now.  Ancient ownership doesn't mean anything to the U.N only the lands that are used after 1945 matters.  If ancient ownership did mean anything, then the White americans would go back to Europe, Blacks in the Carribean would go back to Africa, and so on.

Why do you think people are protesting Tibet, because China took that land after the U.N was formed.



THE FRENCH DECIDED THE FATE OF KAMPUCHEA KROM WITHOUT CONSULTING WITH THE INDIGENIOUS PEOPLE OR WITH THE UNITED NATION IN 6-041949.

you have to understand kampuchea krom belong to khmer people.

However your king gave that land to Vietnam, therefore Vietnam rightfully and legally own that land.

[Jotmaimamoreaj]

His majesty Jayjatha 2nd did not give a piece of land to Vietnamese people. Please do not claim that. The khmer king mad mistake by allowing the vietnamese to stay there. Who would know in law will be enemy?

[angkorwat19]

His majesty Jayjatha 2nd did not give  a piece of land to Vietnamese people. Please do not claim that. The khmer king mad mistake by allowing the vietnamese to stay there. Who would know in law will be enemy?

they were witty and tricky people. king chettha II was simply out-witted by his vietnamese princess. khmer leaders should learn from his mistakes.

This post has been edited by angkorwat19: Apr 22 2004, 05:31 PM

[FKR]

No matter how incompetent the Khmer King Chey Chetta might be, the fact is that he ONLY ALLOWED the Vietnamese people to settle on the Khmer ancestral lands' just like the American government and othe receiving host countries had ALLOWED the resettlements of the various Southeast Asian immigrants. It was the same process. There is no recorded evidence that show that the Khmer King Chey Chetta had ceded an inch of the Khmer territory to the Vietnamese control. However, the country of Vietnam supported their nationals by sending its troops to take the possession of the Khmer land wherever there were Vietnamese settlements. This clearly shows that the Vietnamese were immoral, predatory criminals. In the modern time, it is well-known that in any host country that the Vietnamese have settled, they tend to form their own distinct ethnic enclave. Now would it make sense for those Vietnamese immigrants to say that the areas of the host countries that they have settled are their lands and should be under their rule????? What a hypocritical criminals the Vietnamese people really are when the historical records show that they started out as only settlers on Khmer ancestral lands, and then turned around and claimed the Khmer lands as theirs when they had the support of their army from their country of Vietnam!!!!!!!

Below you will find the evil designs of the Vietnamese against the Khmer people. Enjoy and learn the truth about their true evil criminal nature.


Relations between Cambodia and Vietnam

In 1618, the Cambodian king, Chey Chetta, was dethroned and a new ruler restored Khmer independence, and moved the capital to Oudang where it remained until 1867. King Chetta then married a Vietnamese princess and sought help from Vietnam, which was ruled by the Nguyen family.

Nguyen’s strategy was to get the Khmer ruler to allow Vietnamese settlements along the shared border. Vietnam then imposed the payment of tribute on the Cambodian government. Over time, Vietnam successfully claimed the lands occupied by its nationals.

In 1834, Vietnam began a systematic Vietnamization of the Khmer people, in an attempt to destroy their language, traditions and religion. Then in 1841, Vietnam annexed Cambodia, erasing it as an independent country.

However in 1845, the Cambodian population, aided by Siam, rose up against the Vietnamese. In exchange, Siam (Thailand) kept all the Cambodian provinces it had occupied for fifty years, while Vietnam permanently annexed the southern part of present-day South Vietnam. Then in 1855, the Cambodian king, Ang Duong, sent a letter to Napoleon III asking for French protection because he was afraid that his country would further be divided up between Vietnam and Thailand. The French protectorate treaty was signed in July 1863. On June 3, 1864, King Norodom, the son of Ang Duong, was ceremonially crowned at Phnom Penh, in the presence of French and Siamese representatives.

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/boatpeople/peoples/cambodia.html


The same, three centuries later, a princess of the Nguyễn dynasty, of the name Ngọc Vạn to whom the word "Cochinchina" or ( Cô chín Chine ) was attributed, was not late in following Huyen Tran's footsteps in becoming the concubine of Cambodian king Prea Chey Chetta II in 1618 in exchange of the facilities granted to Vietnamese in their settlement in the region Ðồng Nai Mô Xoài which is no other than the Saigon-Cholon <esaigon.htm>region today.

http://www.limsi.fr/Recherche/CIG/esacrif.htm

In 1620 the Khmer king Chey Chettha II (1618-28) married a daughter of Sai Vuong, one of the Nguyen lords (1558- 1778), who ruled southern Vietnam for most of the period of the restored Le dynasty (1428-1788). Three years later, Chey Chettha allowed the Vietnamese to establish a custom-house at Prey Nokor, near what is now Ho Chi Minh City (until 1975, Saigon). By the end of the seventeenth century, the region was under Vietnamese administrative control, and Cambodia was cut off from access to the sea. Trade with the outside world was possible only with Vietnamese permission.

There were periods in the seventeenth and the eighteenth centuries, when Cambodia's neighbors were preoccupied with internal or external strife, that afforded the beleaguered country a breathing spell. The Vietnamese were involved in a lengthy civil war until 1674, but upon its conclusion they promptly annexed sizable areas of contiguous Cambodian territory in the region of the Mekong Delta. For the next one hundred years they used the alleged mistreatment of Vietnamese colonists in the delta as a pretext for their continued expansion. By the end of the eighteenth century, they had extended their control to include the area encompassed in the late 1980s by the Socialist Republic of Vietnam (Vietnam).
Thailand, which might otherwise have been courted as an ally against Vietnamese incursions in the eighteenth century, was itself involved in a new conflict with Burma. In 1767 the Thai capital of Ayutthaya was besieged and destroyed. The Thai quickly recovered, however, and soon reasserted their dominion over Cambodia. The youthful Khmer king, Ang Eng (1779-96), a refugee at the Thai court, was installed as monarch at Odongk by Thai troops. At the same time, Thailand quietly annexed Cambodia's three northernmost provinces. In addition, the local rulers of the northwestern provinces of Batdambang and Siemreab (Siemreap) became vassals of the Thai king, and these areas came under the Thai sphere of influence.

A renewed struggle between Thailand and Vietnam for control of Cambodia in the nineteenth century resulted in a period when Vietnamese officials, working through a puppet Cambodian king, ruled the central part of the country and attempted to force Cambodians to adopt Vietnamese customs. Several rebellions against Vietnamese rule ensued. The most important of these occurred in 1840 to 1841 and spread through much of the country. After two years of fighting, Cambodia and its two neighbors reached an accord that placed the country under the joint suzerainty of Thailand and Vietnam. At the behest of both countries, a new monarch, Ang Duong (1848-59), ascended the throne and brought a decade of peace and relative independence to Cambodia.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/khtoc.html

This post has been edited by FKR: Apr 22 2004, 06:43 PM

[akara]

Three years later, Chey Chettha allowed the Vietnamese to establish a custom-house at Prey Nokor, near what is now Ho Chi Minh City (until 1975, Saigon). By the end of the seventeenth century, the region was under Vietnamese administrative control, and Cambodia was cut off from access to the sea. Trade with the outside world was possible only with Vietnamese permission.

Oh, I see. The king only allowed the Viets to build a custom-house. That's entirely different from giving land!

[DaMo]

However, the country of Vietnam supported their nationals by sending its troops to take the possession of the Khmer land wherever there were Vietnamese settlements.

This sounds like the Nazi idea of incorporating any non-Reich territories inhabited by Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans) into the Reich.

[Nam Quoc Son Ha]

However, the country of Vietnam supported their nationals by sending its troops to take the possession of the Khmer land wherever there were Vietnamese settlements.

This sounds like the Nazi idea of incorporating any non-Reich territories inhabited by Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans) into the Reich.

Please get your facts right before commenting and paralleling the Vietnamese incorporation of Khmer Krom into Vietnam to Nazi Germany. For your information, a Chinese general by the name of Mac Thien Tich developed the land and tributed it to the Vietnamese king Nguyen Anh.

[Thay_]

However, the country of Vietnam supported their nationals by sending its troops to take the possession of the Khmer land wherever there were Vietnamese settlements.

This sounds like the Nazi idea of incorporating any non-Reich territories inhabited by Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans) into the Reich.

Please get your facts right before commenting and paralleling the Vietnamese incorporation of Khmer Krom into Vietnam to Nazi Germany. For your information, a Chinese general by the name of Mac Thien Tich developed the land and tributed it to the Vietnamese king Nguyen Anh.

sure..

[DaMo]

However, the country of Vietnam supported their nationals by sending its troops to take the possession of the Khmer land wherever there were Vietnamese settlements.

This sounds like the Nazi idea of incorporating any non-Reich territories inhabited by Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans) into the Reich.

Please get your facts right before commenting and paralleling the Vietnamese incorporation of Khmer Krom into Vietnam to Nazi Germany. For your information, a Chinese general by the name of Mac Thien Tich developed the land and tributed it to the Vietnamese king Nguyen Anh.

Do you deny that the Vietnamese kingdom occupied Khmer and Champa territories that were inhabited by their emigrant nationals?

[Thay_]

Do you deny that the Vietnamese kingdom occupied Khmer and Champa territories that were inhabited by their emigrant nationals?

1699—Nguyen forces chase Khmer and Cham all the way to Mekong Delta

Ha Tien

1700’s great Chinese émigré trading port

Middle Broker for Cambodian goods (formerly sold by Angkor)

Mac Family

Mac Cuu Minh Loyalist from Guangdong (Remember Trieu Da? Old Yueh guys in Guangdong)
Mac Thien Tu
Mac Thien Tich

Still he will denied.

source: http://students.washington.edu/dbiggs/cour.../lecture10.html

[Nam Quoc Son Ha]

However, the country of Vietnam supported their nationals by sending its troops to take the possession of the Khmer land wherever there were Vietnamese settlements.

This sounds like the Nazi idea of incorporating any non-Reich territories inhabited by Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans) into the Reich.

Please get your facts right before commenting and paralleling the Vietnamese incorporation of Khmer Krom into Vietnam to Nazi Germany. For your information, a Chinese general by the name of Mac Thien Tich developed the land and tributed it to the Vietnamese king Nguyen Anh.

Do you deny that the Vietnamese kingdom occupied Khmer and Champa territories that were inhabited by their emigrant nationals?

If that is the case then all of the world's great civilisations were/are Nazi.