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[tangawizi]

Thanks sparky, but can you answer this also?

At the time of the Prophet's life in circa 630AD, were the peoples of Arabia believers of these 'jinns' that has been mentioned in the Quran?

[pun187]

Allaah gave Adam the knowledge of all the languages.

It is not as they say that the first humans were cave people who communicated by actions and that fire was somehow discovered and bla bla bla - they say that because they want to say that they think we came from animals.

If you want information on the logical refutation of such theories I can expand in shaa' Allaah.

But it is important to know that Adam, his wife and children - although they were the first humans - they were informed about how to live. How to plant, how to use fire, how to speak.

They also did not resemble animals. They were not hairy!! The description of Prophet Adam is mentioned in Islamic references. He was much taller than humans now and Eve was created to suit his height. The people in Paradise will be in his height.
I don't see in your reply the name of any famous Arab linguist who said that.

And you can't deny the fact that it is mentioned in Islaam that Jinn are a type of creation that are made from fire - their father is satan.
It is mentioned by Prophet MuHammad that those who call themselves Muslim will be divided into more than 70 groups - only 1 will go to Paradise out of them - the mainstream.

I said it b4 Im not here to debate! If you want to debate just create a new thread in the D/P/R forum.
But Ill awnser these points right now (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Im not denying the fact that Jinns(devils) are made of fire,I know that they are described as having been born out of blasts of fire (from the cosmos).But what i wrote was about the word "JINN" in general and you can't deny that the word "JINN" is applicable to anything which lies beyond the reach of common sight or is invisible to the naked eye, got yourself an Arabic lexicon!!! Now when the quran tells us that the creatures b4 Adam(PBUH) were Jinns,it does not mean that they were devils,it could be everything which dwelled out of sight bc again this is what the word Jinn literally means "dwell out of sight".If you apply this word to the genii of tales and fables,then I'll say,In my view the Quran doesn't support your interpretation!

Now to the next part which shows me again that you need to gain more knowledge about Islam,Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) said that the Ummah will be devided into 73 sections(sects) then he mentioned that all will be in fire except one. Meaning 72 sects will be in fire while one will be safe! When someone asked him who the safe ones will be,the Prophet (PBUH) replied "They are those who will be like me and my companions"! Now you brother samsparky tell me are the "mainstream" muslims you are referring to like the Prophet (PBUH) and his companions ??? the "mainstream" muslims who are in Palestine ??? they are killing innocent women and children(which is forbidden! even in war! ) through suicide bombings(Suicide is forbidden in Islam!),or the "mainstream" muslims in Saudi Arabia ??? where women have not the same rights as men!!!(women and men are equal in Islam) Or Afghanistan and Pakistan where honour killings are happening every day in the name of "Islam" even tough it has nothing to do with Islam!!! Or Sudan where blacks are suppressed(all humans are equal in Islam) by whom ? mainstream Muslims!!! So according to your understanding these "mainstream" muslims will go to Paradise,right ??? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)

This post has been edited by pun187: Apr 6 2006, 05:07 AM

[tangawizi]

I knew you had to be a Sufi (pun187)! Open the door! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)

[pun187]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) 2

I knew you had to be a Sufi (pun187)! Open the door! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)

who knows who I am!
I am not in the mosque of the believer,
Nor in false rites.
I am not in the pure or the impure.
Neither Moses nor Pharaoh.
Who knows who I am!
I am not in the vedas or holy books,
Not in drug or wine.
Not in the drunkards wasted intoxication,
Not in wakefulness or sleep.
Who knows who I am!
I am not in sorrow nor in joy,
Neither in clean nor unclean.
I am not water, I am not earth,
I am not fire, I am not air.
Who knows who I am!
I am not from Arabia or Lahore,
Nor from India or Nagaur.
Neither a hindu or muslim from Peshawar,
Nor do I live in Nadaun.
Who knows who I am!
I cannot be unearthed in the mysteries of religion.
I was not born of Adam and Eve.
I am not the name I assume.
I am not in stillness, not in movement.
Finally, I only know myself!
I cannot know any other.
Who could be wiser than I ?
Who then, stands by ?
Who knows who I am!

[samsparky]

Tangawizi:

For your question, I can give you some info.

It is known that God gave Prophet Solomon a power over the jinn kind and so they would obey him. This was really special because jinn have more ability than humans in some things – like they can fly and move heavy things from place to place. And they could go down to the deep sea and get pearls.

At Prophet MuHammad’s time, there were people who had not yet met with him. One of them heard a voice without seeing the speaker. It was a voice telling in a poetic way to send the salaam to Prophet MuHammad and that Prophet Jesus, the son of Mary, told to follow Prophet MuHammad. After the man and the people with him met with the Prophet, it was discovered that that was actually a jinn believer from Prophet Jesus’s time.

It is highly likely that people did know about jinn from stories from their ancestors.

Pun:

Did I say that mainstream = sunni???

Mainstream is every person who takes the knowledge and follows it as the Prophet taught it to his Companions and they taught it to the Taabi^oon and they taught it to the Salaf after them who taught it to the khalaf who taught it to their students and whomever from us who learnt from this chain and followed it.

[pun187]

^^ sorry for calling you brother, sister (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[samsparky]

ISLAM, THE TRUE RELIGION

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. May Allah raise the rank of our master Muhammad and his Al and Companions and protect his nation from that which he fears for it.

ALLAAH
Everything that exists, except Allah the Creator, is created by Him (The words "He", "His", and "Him" used in reference to Allah must not be construed to refer to gender). Allah has full power over every bit of His creation. Allah is not created; He existed always, having His attributes. Allah will never perish, nor will His attributes diminish. The attributes of Allah are uncountable, among which are: He has knowledge of all His creation; He sees the seeable things; and He hears the hearable things. His knowing, seeing and hearing are in no way similar to ours. Allah's Kalam (Speech) is not made up of language or sound, nor does it resemble the speech of man in any way. Allah does not need any of His creation for His existence and He does not resemble any of His creation in any way. This means that Allah is not a man or a woman; He is not "a Father" or "a Mother". Allah does not have a wife, a mother, a father, a son, or a daughter; He has no equal or partner. Allah does not divide into parts. No creation has "a part of Allah” in him, nor can any creation become like Allah. He is the only God.
Allah existed eternally before He created any of the places, such as Paradise, the skies, Earth, or the planets. Hence, we know Allah is now as He was before He created all these places; He does not need any place for His existence. Allah has always known about every part of His creation; there is no thing in His creation which escapes His knowledge or defeats Him. No thing goes against the will of Allah . Both good and evil occur by Allah's will. However, Allah orders humans to do only the good; humans make the choice to obey or disobey Allah. Our ability to do good or evil is given to us by Allah, the Exalted.

HUMANITY
Men and women are creations of Allah. They are distinct from plants, animals, jinn, and angels. They were created after the angels and jinn. The first man was created from clay. Allah puts a soul, which He created, in the human being, but in no way is man's soul Allah , or "a part of Allah". The first man was Adam, and all human beings come from his family. Adam had no mother or father; he was created and given life by Allah. Allah created a wife for Adam who bore his children. Allah created the human beings to order them to believe, profess the truth about Allah and His messengers, worship Allah only, and follow His orders during their life on Earth. Some of mankind do worship Allah correctly and obey His orders. These will be rewarded beyond imagination in Paradise. Some of mankind do not worship Allah correctly and will be severely punished by Allah in Hellfire.

JINN
Jinn are distinct creations of Allah, who are invisible to humans. The ancestor of all jinn is Satan. He was first a believer, then he blasphemed. Allah created him from the pure flame of fire. The jinn are male and female and have offspring. They exist here on Earth and elsewhere. Like the humans, some jinn worship Allah , but some do not. The ones who do not are known as the devils, whose head is Satan.

ANGELS
Angels are another distinct creation of Allah. They are not male or female and have no children. Allah created them from light. They never sin. They obey Allah in every matter. Humans have angels near them that record all they do. Some angels have appeared to people in the form of men (Some angels may appear to people in the form of men, but without sexual organs.) but they never take a woman's shape. Some angels protect people from jinn by Allah's will. Gabriel (Jibril) was the angel who conveyed the Revelations to the prophets.

PROPHETS
Prophets are the greatest men that ever lived. Prophets received Revelation from Allah and conveyed it to the people. The prophets received the Revelations and conveyed them in the language that Allah ordered. The language of the scriptures is created, but Allah's Kalam (Speech) is not. (The Kalam of Allah, has two meanings: one meaning refers to the eternal and everlasting attribute of Allah by which He orders, prohibits, promises, and threatens. Allah's Kalam is not composed of letters, words, language, or sound. The other meaning is the expression of Allah's eternal attribute which was revealed in the authentic Books of revelation that were given to the Prophets). A messenger is a prophet who comes with abrogating some of the laws brought by the previous messenger or receives a new set of laws. Prophets were intelligent, trustworthy, and truthful. They never commit major sins and never leave their Religion. Many prophets have lived in the past. Muhammad, may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him, who lived some 1400 years ago, was the last and greatest prophet.

Other prophets before Muhammad include: Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph (son of Jacob), David, Solomon, Moses, and Jesus, may Allah's peace and blessings be upon all of them.
The true scriptures were Revelations received by the prophets. Moses and Jesus both received scriptures, but what are now called the Torah and the Bible have been tampered with by man and are not the true Revelations received by the great messengers Moses and Jesus. The only scripture which is unchanged and will never be changed is the Qur'an, which is the scripture Allah revealed to Muhammad, His last prophet, in clear and eloquent Arabic. Allah has promised to protect the Qur'an from any changes by man. Hence, it has remained unchanged since it was revealed some 1400 years ago. Unlike the prophets before him who were sent to a particular people, Muhammad was sent to all people who would lived at his time and all people who would live after him until the Day of Judgment.

THE DAY OF JUDGMENT
On a day which only Allah knows (not even the angels or prophets know it), Allah will make all the creatures who are still living on the Earth and in the skies die (including Satan and other devils and angels). Then Allah will resurrect them all. Then He will judge humans and jinn on what they did during their lives. They will be rewarded or punished, by Allah's will, for what they believed, said, and did by their own choice.

PARADISE
Those of mankind and jinn who believe corrrectly in Allah, and believe in the Messenger sent to them and profess their belief (i.e., becoming followers of the true Religion) and die with that status will dwell forever in Paradise, which Allah has created for them. The life in Paradise is better than what any human living on Earth can imagine. Those in Paradise will experience it in body and soul, but the body will be a new body with no defects. Paradise is not allegorical. It is a very real and actual place. Therein will be wonderful riches, foods, joys, and peace. People will be married and have interaction with one another. Those in Paradise will be in various ranks according to their piety. Those who are rewarded with Paradise will never be sent out of it.

HELL
Hell, another creation of Allah, is the dwelling place for those of humans and jinn who reject the revelations of the prophets. Hence, they disbelieve in Allah and His messengers. Hell is also a particular place and its torture is not experienced here on Earth. The suffering will also be in body and soul. Some of the followers of the true Religion, who sinned but did not repent during their lifetime, will suffer in Hell for some time. Being believers of the true Religion, they will get out of Hell after a time which Allah wills. Then they will enter Paradise and dwell there forever and receive no further punishment. Some believers of the true Religion who die as sinners will be forgiven by Allah on the Day of Judgment and will not go to Hell before entering Paradise.

LIFE AND DEATH
This life of a human or jinn always ends with death and there is no exception. Humans do not choose their race, sex, parents, or birthplace. Thus, they will not be held accountable for those aspects of their life on the Day of Judgment. No human is doomed to Hell because he was born from a certain sex or race. Allah, the Merciful, has promised that any human or jinn who dies as a follower of the true Religion will receive Paradise forever.
The correct belief in Allah does not change. Every prophet and messenger has said the same concerning belief in Allah : No one is God but Allah, and mankind is to believe in Him and worship Him only. The prophet for the people on Earth at present is Muhammad, may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him, and the laws for the present population are the laws that Prophet Muhammad was given by Allah for mankind. There will be no new laws given, for there will be no new messenger or prophet.

SATAN
Satan, the first jinn, was present with the angels when Allah ordered him and the angels to bow down in respect before Adam. Satan did not bow down in respect. He objected to Allah and said he was better than Adam, because he was made from fire whereas Adam was made from clay. Because of this objection, Allah damned Satan and banished him. Satan vowed that he would try to persuade humans to accept false belief and to perform false worship and shameful conduct. Allah promised that Satan and those who follow him will go to Hell on the Day of Judgment.
Satan is man's accursed enemy. His vow to ruin many of mankind is not to be taken lightly. He attempts to confuse and ruin man by his prompting and making bad deeds seem good. A person is not sinful when Satan whispers to him; he is sinful if he believes and/or acts on the prompting. Although humans must believe that Satan exists and take the warning about him very seriously, we must remember that Allah has full power over Satan. Satan can do nothing against the will of Allah . When a believer of the true Religion strives to follow Allah's orders and asks Allah for protection from Satan, he must not doubt Allah's great protection and mercy.

RELIGION
There is only one true Religion, that of holding the correct belief in Allah and His messengers, worshipping Allah only, and loving, respecting, and following the prophet of the time and loving and respecting the other prophets. Every prophet and messenger followed and called people to the same Religion; this Religion is called ISLAM. A believer in ISLAM is called a MUSLIM. The meaning of the word Islam is "to submit to Allah ". The meaning of the word Muslim is "one who submits to Allah ."The name Allah is the name of the only true God. It means the one who is attributed with the power to create things. Although prophets and messengers spoke different languages, what they called people to was the same Religion, Islam. A person can declare that he
believes and follows the true Religion, Islam, in any language. Belief is known to Allah regardless of the language. Those who say they are Muslims, yet deny the true belief in their heart, with their tongue, or by some actions, are surely not Muslims. Allah knows fully who are the ones who truly believe in Islam. Both messengers Moses and Jesus called their people to the true Religion, Islam. This fact is clearly described in the Qur'an, the last and preserved scripture for all of mankind on Earth.

JESUS
Jesus, may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him, is dearly loved by Muslims, for he is one of the greatest messengers and he is one of the most loved creations to Allah. Jesus has no father; he was created within his mother, Mary, a woman chosen above others.
By Allah's will, Prophet Jesus performed many miracles and was obedient to Allah in every way. Jesus spoke only the truth and his followers were Muslims. Never did Jesus say he was Allah, "the son of Allah", or that his followers should pray to him or to anyone other than Allah. Jesus is a man, but had no father; Adam was a man but had neither a father nor a mother. The Qur'an tells us that the Jews did not crucify Jesus as some believe. He was not crucified at all. By Allah's will, Jesus was raised from Earth. Jesus is alive in the second Heaven. Allah will send Jesus back to Earth before the Day of Judgment. Jesus will attest that Islam is the true faith and that Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger. He will follow the laws that Allah gave to Muhammad, and slay the one-eyed impostor.

SINS
When a person goes against Allah's orders (which are conveyed by His messenger), he sins. The worst sin is blasphemy. It is caused by any belief, saying, or action that contradicts Islam. When a person becomes Muslim he leaves all blasphemy. A Muslim must learn about blasphemy to avoid commiting any of them as he proceeds through life. If a Muslim commits blasphemy, he becomes non-Muslim (apostate) and must become Muslim again. If a Muslim commits a sin which is less than blasphemy and dies without repenting to Allah of the sin, then this sin is counted against him on the Day of Judgment, unless Allah forgives it for him. On the other hand, if a Muslim follows Allah's orders, in obedience to Him, this is counted in his favor. All of this is known by Allah and no thing escapes Him.
When a Muslim commits sins, he must repent of them immediately. To repent of blasphemy, one must utter the Two Testifications of Faith, with the intention to clear oneself of the committed blasphemy. The Testifications of Faith (Shahadahs) can be stated as follows:
"I testify that I only worship my Creator and I testify that Muhammad is God's Messenger.
Any statement equivalent to the Testifications of Faith is also accepted.
For a sin less than blasphemy, one must stop doing the sin, regret having done it, and have the intention not to commit the same sin again. If the sin is stealing from a person, for example, then the stolen goods must be returned as well. Allah is ever-merciful to the Muslim. No matter how many times the Muslim sins in his life, if he stops it, regrets having done it, and intends not to do it again, he will be forgiven by Allah. However, for those who are non-Muslim, no matter what good deeds they do, they receive no credit in the Hereafter; they must first become Muslim.
A few examples of blasphemy are: believing that Allah has a son, worshipping an idol, and saying that Allah does not know everything. Some examples of sins less than blasphemy are: killing a person unjustly, adultery, drinking alcohol, and stealing. When a Muslim makes sincere repentance, as was described, it is as though he did not sin, in that he will not be punished for what he repented of, for Allah is ever-merciful to the Muslims. Also, when a person becomes a Muslim for the first time, Allah forgives all his past sins.

PRAYER
Upon the order of Allah, Prophet Muhammad commanded the Muslims to pray five times a day. This order applies since the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad until the Day of Judgment. The prayers have a specific format with the one praying praising and thanking Allah, asking for His help and guidance, and asking Him to bless the prophets and the pious Muslims. A Muslim knows that at any moment of his life he can ask Allah for help and guidance, and he is encouraged to do so. However, supplicating Allah does not replace the five prescribed prayers, which have a specific format to be followed.

BECOMING A MUSLIM
A person becomes a Muslim by leaving all that contradicts the meaning of the following Two Testifications of Faith, believing in the heart and declaring with the tongue:
"No one deserves worship but God, the Creator. And Muhammad is the Messenger of God"
Saying any statement equivalent to the Two Testifications of Faith in any language is also valid.
Believing in all this implies that: Allah, the Creator, has perfect attributes; only Allah must be worshipped; Prophet Muhammad, the last prophet, was truthful in all that he conveyed from Allah; all the prophets, peace be upon them, before him (the first of whom was Adam) conveyed the same message of belief to their people; they are to be loved and respected, yet in no way do prophets (or any creation) have Allah's attributes.
A person can become Muslim, as aforementioned, in the solitude of a forest or in a crowded subway; he does not need to go to a mosque or have Muslims witness his profession. Allah knows the hearts of His creation. However, when the person becomes Muslim, he may declare his belief to some fellow Muslims so that he will be known as a Muslim among the people.
Don't hesitate to embrace Islam; it is the gateway to success. To anyone who becomes Muslim while reading this booklet, we advise you to seek knowledge as to the practice of Islam from a trustworthy Muslim teacher. As people go to college to be taught by those knowledgeable about different subjects, one must go to a learned Muslim to learn about the practice of Islam. For a devoted Muslim, there will always be more to learn and more ways to improve; so arrogance is not a part of a good Muslim's life.

All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the heavens and earth. Allah knows best.

[tangawizi]

^^ sorry for calling you brother, sister (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes, thank you, I am a divine ray of light... (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

I enjoy reading about the great islamic writers such as :

Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi (1207 – 1273)
(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/29/Mawlana_rumi.jpg)

Ibn Rashid (1126 – 1198 known as Averroes from Andalucia)
(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/AverroesColor.jpg/200px-AverroesColor.jpg)

Al Ghazali (1058-1111)

Ibn Arabi (born 1165 in Murcia, Spain and died 1240 in Damascus)

Has anyone here read their writing? We would enjoy learning about their learned writings also, apart from the Holy Quran.. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif)

[pun187]

Yes, thank you, I am a divine ray of light... (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

I actually meant samsparky LOL I just checked out her?/his? profile and it says that she?/he? is female LOL

Rumi is one of my fav Poets too (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif)
then comes Allama Muhammad Iqbal, Bulley Shah(also a sufi Poet ) and Mirza Ghalib
but you know what,"mainstream" muslims don't consider rumi or Allama Iqbal to be muslim (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

This post has been edited by pun187: Apr 6 2006, 06:02 AM

[tangawizi]

The World of Rumi

According to Shahram Shiva, one reason for Rumi's popularity is that "Rumi is able to verbalize the highly personal and often confusing world of personal/spiritual growth and mysticism in a very forward and direct fashion. He does not offend anyone, and he includes everyone. The world of Rumi is neither exclusively the world of a Sufi, nor the world of a Hindu, nor a Jew, nor a Christian; it is the highest state of a human being — a fully evolved human. A complete human is not bound by cultural limitations; he touches every one of us.

Today Rumi's poems can be heard in churches, synagogues, Zen monasteries, as well as in the downtown New York art/performance/music scene." In Divan-i Shams, Rumi says:

What is to be done, O Muslims? for I do not recognize myself.
I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Magian, nor Muslim.
I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea;
I am not of Nature's mint, nor of the circling heaven.
I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire;
I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity.
I am not of India, nor of China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin
I am not of the kingdom of 'Iraqian, nor of the country of Khorasan
I am not of the this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell
I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan.
My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless

I actually meant samsparky LOL I just checked out her?/his? profile and it says that she?/he? is female LOL

Rumi is one of my fav Poets too (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif)
then comes Allama Muhammad Iqbal, Bulley Shah(also a sufi Poet ) and Mirza Ghalib
but you know what,"mainstream" muslims don't consider rumi or Allama Iqbal to be muslim (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

Al Arabi too has been labelled thus. His works apparently contains the same kind of resonance of rhythmic prose which are to be found in the Quran. Does anyone who knows arabic here read his books in original language?



Samsparky is another divine ray of light then! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Tangawizi:

For your question, I can give you some info.

It is known that God gave Prophet Solomon a power over the jinn kind and so they would obey him. This was really special because jinn have more ability than humans in some things – like they can fly and move heavy things from place to place. And they could go down to the deep sea and get pearls.

At Prophet MuHammad’s time, there were people who had not yet met with him. One of them heard a voice without seeing the speaker. It was a voice telling in a poetic way to send the salaam to Prophet MuHammad and that Prophet Jesus, the son of Mary, told to follow Prophet MuHammad. After the man and the people with him met with the Prophet, it was discovered that that was actually a jinn believer from Prophet Jesus’s time.

Thank you v much sparky! Sorry, I don't quite understand this last paragraph. Do u mean that the arabic folks at the time of the Prophet Jesus as well as the time of Prophet Mohammed were jinn believers until the Prophet Mohammed revealed the teachings of Allah to his followers?

[samsparky]

The World of Rumi....

Sorry, I don't quite understand this last paragraph. Do u mean that the arabic folks at the time of the Prophet Jesus as well as the time of Prophet Mohammed were jinn believers until the Prophet Mohammed revealed the teachings of Allah to his followers?

Just about Rumi, just from reading that extract you had there - anyone who says about themself non-Muslim is a non-Muslim - doesn't matter how poetic he thinks he's being - it's not a game.

About the question, it was known to the Muslims even from the time of Prophet Adam that there was such thing as jinn. And our Prophet MuHammad taught us about our qareen from the jinn who orders us with bad - but the qareen of Prophet MuHammad became a Muslim.

So the issue of jinn was widely known to the people.

[tangawizi]

Allaah gave Adam the knowledge of all the languages.

It is not as they say that the first humans were cave people who communicated by actions and that fire was somehow discovered and bla bla bla - they say that because they want to say that they think we came from animals.

If you want information on the logical refutation of such theories I can expand in shaa' Allaah.

Sparky, it is not possible to talk about religion and evolution at the same time without slagging one off and praising the other.. so it's best not to compare spirituality with science (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/shrug.gif)

Hehe...I am tickled to think that Prophet Adam could have known how to speak swahili!! Jambo bwana.. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) juz kiddin' By the way, what kind of revelations did Prophet Adam make?

Just about Rumi, just from reading that extract you had there - anyone who says about themself non-Muslim is a non-Muslim - doesn't matter how poetic he thinks he's being - it's not a game.

True, it's not a game, it's finding the common spirit in all humankind. One can call oneself a muslim and still behave as a non-muslim, correct?

This post has been edited by tangawizi: Apr 6 2006, 06:40 AM

[pun187]

At Prophet MuHammad’s time, there were people who had not yet met with him. One of them heard a voice without seeing the speaker. It was a voice telling in a poetic way to send the salaam to Prophet MuHammad and that Prophet Jesus, the son of Mary, told to follow Prophet MuHammad. After the man and the people with him met with the Prophet, it was discovered that that was actually a jinn believer from Prophet Jesus’s time.

Is this a hadith maybe I've never heard of ? if so can you pls tell me which hadith it is ?

This post has been edited by pun187: Apr 6 2006, 06:45 AM

[samsparky]

tangawizi:

Adam was Revealed to like all Prophets. They all had the same belief but some differed in rules. For example, in the set of Rules Revealed to Prophet Adam, the male from one set of twins could marry the female from a different set of twins. Because Eve used to give birth to twins except for 1 pregnancy.

Another point is that everything we say we are accountable for.

The person who curses Allaah is a blasphemer, whether or not he believes in what he says, and whether or not he feels delighted about saying it.

Surat an-Nahl, Verse 106 means: [He who blasphemes after having believed will be severely punished by Allaah. Excluded is the one who is forced to blaspheme while one’s heart is certain with faith and one is not pleased with blasphemy].

Imaam an-Nawawiyy said: “If a man was angry with his child or young slave and hit him severely, then another person asked him, ‘How could you do this? Aren’t you a Muslim?’ and to that his deliberate answer was ‘No’, he blasphemed.”

This was said by Hanafiyy scholars as well as others.

Another point is that the sound intellect is a witness for the truth of Islaam. Using it to prove Islaam correct is something we are encouraged to do and that is how we speak to scientists - using the sound intellect.

pun:
I heard it quite a while ago. I will try to get you more details.

For now I'll leave it at that - good night.

[haqine]

Assalamu'alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh
Thnx afif for the invitation...
I'm in.... (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

[tangawizi]

Dear sparky, forgive me but sound intellect is just incompatible with spiritual matters. I'd humbly admit to you I cannot begin to see what sound intellect is behind the notion that Adam and Eve propagated the human race through sets of twins who intermarried. This sounds like an episode from the X-files...

I must admit to you too that I've never gotten a satisfactory answer from a christian on this issue either.

In my humble opinion, when we ponder about spirituality matters, how we came about is really inconsequential. However, how we will end up when we are on our deathbeds is more of an enlightening thing to ponder upon.

[aisyah]

I enjoyed this post tremendously. It makes me feel closer to the teachings of surrender - 'Islam'. I am a yogi and the teachings of the ancient sages of India, as well as Buddha, Taoists etc say exactly the same thing that moderation in life is needed, and self-realization must be experienced from within, however, self-discipline is critical, not only in words, but our actions and thoughts.

I have a Singaporean muslim colleague of Yemen blood, who tells me that only Allah will judge her for her sin of drinking, no other muslims nor non-muslims can judge her. And she will pay her own price when the time comes. So let us not judge others but look within ourselves instead, to see if the faults we see in others are reflected in ourselves as a mirror.. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/Talktohand.gif)

Salam, nice to meet you (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

It's quite interesting to know that there are similarities between Islam and what the ancient sages of India, Taoists, Buddhists, have been teaching. Sometimes I feel if many Muslims truly follow this part of the Islamic religion, then maybe we wouldn't have so many extremists/fanatics going around committing acts of violence in the name of religion. As their behavior/actions would go against what Islam truly asks from its followers: moderation, self-discipline.

Too many Muslims, from what I have seen, tend to practice Islam dogmatically. They teach and preach without allowing their students to analyze the materials presented in order to attain their own form of enlightenment to better strengthen their faith. Thus the students only "know" but they do not "understand". And many end up being self-righteous or sanctimonious towards others who they deem are not as "good" of a Muslim as they are...and many also turn towards extremism/fanaticism.

It's a disheartening trend amongst many Muslim communities, and I don't know if it's one that will change anytime soon. I see it happening in my own, and the criticisms about it have fallen on the deaf ears of the elders...they feel that questioning/analyzing religion would lead us astray but how else are we to attain enlightenment, how else are we to truly embrace Islam as our own faith (and not just the faith of our parents/ancestors) if we do not question/analyze it...?

[tangawizi]

Goodnight and salaam!

Spiritual teachings have to widen and broaden the mind, and not narrow and close the mind to the common humanity in us all. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

I hope the old philosophers like Rumi, Al Arabi, Ibn Rashid and their opponents like Al Ghazali will enjoy a revival and be studied again widely by all for their teachings represent the common spirituality in us all.

[aisyah]

So r u saying its ok to drink as long as its not in excessiveness and i don't get drunk? So its alrigt if i were to take sip then?

Whether or not it is "ok for you" to drink or not is truly up to you, as I do not know your capabilities/limitations.

Personally, I have tried a sip of alcohol, several years back. I did find it to be tasty, and because I liked the taste that is more reason for me to stay away from it. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

Alcohol is a very addictive drug, although just "how addictive" can vary from person to person. Thus even if you take a sip, the chances of you going further than "just a sip" is quite high, especially if you like the taste of it (or you feel any form of peer/societal pressure). A dependency on alcohol, for all sorts of reasons, will always begin with "just a sip"...so if you feel that you aren't able to control it to "just a sip", then perhaps it is best to not even try it.

Here is a link from wikipedia about the effects of alcohol on the body:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_alcohol_on_the_body

As for it being a "sin", regardless of the amount consumed, for me, only Allah can decide the extent of our own sins, however big or small. But I will repeat that the reasons alcohol is considered a sin is because of its potential to inflict harm to ourselves and to those around us...so for me, I'd rather not touch it than open the way for the possible negative effects of alcohol to creep into my life...
there are some positives to alcohol, but as I said before, I believe the negatives far outweigh the positives.

Goodnight and salaam!

Spiritual teachings have to widen and broaden the mind, and not narrow and close the mind to the common humanity in us all. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

I hope the old philosophers like Rumi, Al Arabi, Ibn Rashid and their opponents like Al Ghazali will enjoy a revival and be studied again widely by all for their teachings represent the common spirituality in us all.

salam and goodnight to you too! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

and I very much agree with you. Please enlighten me with the writings of the old philosophers, I have not been exposed to them. What pieces of theirs would you, or anyone here, recommend?

This post has been edited by aisyah: Apr 6 2006, 08:20 AM

[pun187]

Dear sparky, forgive me but sound intellect is just incompatible with spiritual matters. I'd humbly admit to you I cannot begin to see what sound intellect is behind the notion that Adam and Eve propagated the human race through sets of twins who intermarried. This sounds like an episode from the X-files...

I must admit to you too that I've never gotten a satisfactory answer from a christian on this issue either.

In my humble opinion, when we ponder about spirituality matters, how we came about is really inconsequential. However, how we will end up when we are on our deathbeds is more of an enlightening thing to ponder upon.

My question goes to "sparky" too,how can you back up your interpretation with the "twins" theory dear samsparky ??? with the quran or the hadith ??? I think its again something that you've heard from somebody! Ill repeat myself when I say that it is very sad that many I mean really many muslims just follow blindly the so called Islamic scholars/Mullahs/Muftis without studing the quran itself.You know it is written in the Quran,that we shouldn't follow anyone or anything blindly and that God provided us with the sight,hearing and intlligence!

And follow not that of which thou hast no knowledge. Verily, the ear and the eye and the heart - all these shall be called to account.

I'll back up my interpretation again with a Verse from the Holy Quran which shows that the creation of man was the culmination of a gradual process and that it is not correct to say that God formed man out of clay and breathed His spirit into him.

And He has created you in different forms and different conditions.

Masaa al'khair good night

If I ever finish with my notes (and I have alot of freetime now, so it's fairly realistic), remind me to PM you.
I am very interested in learning about Islam for this very reason.

I don't see Islam as a solution, but merely as a stepping stone.
Islam is not without problems; Muhammad (pbuh) will not bear our final revelation.

What kind of problems do you mean shiro ??? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by pun187: Apr 6 2006, 12:11 PM