Total War, usa, china Options

[danoc]

You know recently, Iran tested the torpodo that traveled very fast and missiles that avoided the detection of radars

(IMG:http://suppressednews.com/photos/shkval.jpg)
this "iranian torped" is a product of russian military industry and was maked for deffense of submarines against other submarines in a very short distance(was developt in a last time of cold war). this torpedo is fast but noone can control it, and his "working radius" is very small.

against modern navy-ships in a modern war is this torpedo useless.

(btw. this torpedo was a real cause because russian submarine "kursk" was explode under water)


(IMG:http://images.derstandard.at/20060404/flyboat(1).jpg)

this iranian monster was stolen from german and russian industry.

soviets have develop it for Caspian Sea.

and germans for post-transport in the north-sea.(was discarded. is to dangerous, if weater became bad)
btw. this thing is very dangerous if you want shot from it with big gun. ( a mashine became like crasy horse, and go swin under water)

This post has been edited by danoc: Apr 7 2006, 09:12 PM

[toronto_chinese]

iranians are pathetic fu-k. They can't defend themselves but still brag day and nights about how good their country is. Those fu-k always drag us the chinese or russians into the conflicts they have.

[danoc]

iranians are pathetic fu-k. They can't defend themselves but still brag day and nights about how good their country is. Those fu-k always drag us the chinese or russians into the conflicts they have.

Yup. you have rigth.

you forgot israel and islamistic people in the middle asia.

but i see it as "political defense" in a propaganda war against other world.
(totalitarian goverment needs political profit, or they go down)

from other view, iran can only win in this conflict.

if they loose a war iranians get rapide modernisation and industrial revolution.

if they get nuclear weapons, iranian "mullah-goverment" became stronger and iran get more money, politican influence and natural ressourses for "conservative" modernisation.

they can only loose, if all world do stop import of iranian oil. (i dont think that all industrial countries want make economical suicide)

This post has been edited by danoc: Apr 7 2006, 11:03 PM

[dgs_vex]

dude, not so surprising. what so good about it? we have many weapons in the world that can avoid detection by a certian radar.

first of all this isnt a internationally recongized controlled tested project

we dont know what radar they used?
we dont know what the enviroment was? gale?hurricane?
we dont know the depth of the test?
we dont know anything but it can travel 200mph, so what? many things in can travel 200mph, just because it travles underwater doesnt give it a stealth bonus. Harpoons travel at 500mph and seasparrows at 2,500mph. other stuff? sealance, everything is classified other than it can carry nuclearwareheads and it travels at subsonic speeds(150-300mph) and its short to medium range.

information i posted is from the web. i wouldnt rely to much off this infomation. all i know is that you cant rely to much on the internet. military infomation is to often exaggerated.

[danoc]

dude, not so surprising. what so good about it? we have many weapons in the world that can avoid detection by a certian radar.

first of all this isnt a internationally recongized controlled tested project

we dont know what radar they used?
we dont know what the enviroment was? gale?hurricane?
we dont know the depth of the test?
we dont know anything but it can travel 200mph, so what? many things in can travel 200mph, just because it travles underwater doesnt give it a stealth bonus. Harpoons travel at 500mph and seasparrows at 2,500mph. other stuff? sealance, everything is classified other than it can carry nuclearwareheads and it travels at subsonic speeds(150-300mph) and its short to medium range.

information i posted is from the web. i wouldnt rely to much off this infomation. all i know is that you cant rely to much on the internet. military infomation is to often exaggerated.

did you hear how serbians have shot a stealth jet in a balcan war?

it was very simple, they have used a multinetwork with 3 radar stations.
with this technic you can see most stealth jets in the heaven.

stealth bonus is only one little thing, why USA have better airforces.
another fact is; NATO have much better racets (satelite technics and, and.) with a long distance radius.
therefore, a USA Jet can shot all Radar stations without that they have see him.

This post has been edited by danoc: Apr 7 2006, 10:58 PM

[Chinese_Soldier]

first of all China HAS been defeated....just recently by Japan...until the world demanded that they leave....we won't go into the other accounts....

China never lost, parts of it was occupied but Chiang Kai-shiek fled to Chongqing and the land west of Wuhan was unoccupied

[xyz]

(IMG:http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/1560/b5216gn.gif) (IMG:http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/237/bombing20gq.gif)
(IMG:http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5814/sam44qz.gif) (IMG:http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/5818/sam62dx.gif)

Total war means total MADness (Mutual Assured Destruction). That would be the end of the world. Let's hope it will never happen, or at least only in movies or our imagination.

This post has been edited by xyz: Apr 10 2006, 01:00 AM

[danoc]

Total war means total MADness (Mutual Assured Destruction).

"happy slapping" for happy doomsday.

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

This post has been edited by danoc: Apr 8 2006, 05:51 AM

[bayard]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/kiss.gif)

if china do atck USA then we have a "NATO against China" war.
China have not enough ressources for the next World war.

eys, China have 1,3 Billion People, but do you know exsactly who of this people can be soldier?

perhaps 60-90 millions.

Do you know how many people in a Europe, Russian Federation, USA, Canada, Mexico and Latain America can be soldiers?
(dont forgot many alies from East Asia and Britans from Australia, New-Zealand and South-Africa.)

i dont know.. perhaps 100 or 600 Millions.

Chinese Army is not maked for long and invasation war. Chinese Army cann't conquer all World.
It is only defense Army not like USA Army and Marines or Britanian and EU-defense-forces.

therefore it is very kiddish to talk about a war between China and USA or their allies.

btw. China need a World like World needs China.

it is much better as total war without a winner.

btw. noone needs 6000 nuces. it is only 200-300 nuces enough to make nuclear winter.

While I agree it's stupid to mention a war between China and US. You are pulling figures out of your @$$.

This is from the CIA World Factbook:

China
Military China Top of Page
Military branches:
People's Liberation Army (PLA): Ground Forces, Navy (includes marines and naval aviation), Air Force (includes Airborne Forces), and II Artillery Corps (strategic missile force); People's Armed Police (PAP); Reserve and Militia Forces (2006)
Military service age and obligation:
18-22 years of age for compulsory military service, with 24-month service obligation; no minimum age for voluntary service (all officers are volunteers); 17 years of age for women who meet requirements for specific military jobs (2004)
Manpower available for military service:
males age 18-49: 342,956,265 (2005 est.)
Manpower fit for military service:
males age 18-49: 281,240,272 (2005 est.)
Manpower reaching military service age annually:
males: 13,186,433 (2005 est.)
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$81.48 billion (2005 est.)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
4.3% (2005 est.)


USA
Military United States Top of Page
Military branches:
Army, Navy and Marine Corps, Air Force, and Coast Guard; note - Coast Guard administered in peacetime by the Department of Homeland Security, but in wartime reports to the Department of the Navy
Military service age and obligation:
18 years of age (2004)
Manpower available for military service:
males age 18-49: 67,742,879
females age 18-49: 67,070,144 (2005 est.)
Manpower fit for military service:
males age 18-49: 54,609,050
females age 18-49: 54,696,706 (2005 est.)
Manpower reaching military service age annually:
males: 2,143,873
females: 2,036,201 (2005 est.)
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$518.1 billion (FY04 est.) (2005 est.)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
4.06% (FY03 est.) (2005 est.)


If you're talking about Active services: China has the largest active standing army. 2.3 million? Anyone going for an invasion of China these days are just stupid. While I also agree that invading USA is stupid too.

This post has been edited by bayard: Apr 8 2006, 11:23 AM

[easy_layup]

are you joking? china could easily be beaten if needed.

China can indeed be beaten, but most likely won't be beaten by any country other than the us.

but even the usa can't beat china easily...think about it, they got to bring all the ships and planes across half the globe and china can just counter with ground based missles. You have to like china's chances at fighting a defensive war.....

when i said total war, i meant without using nukes (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) or else it wouldn't be much of a war

i just said who can make more weapons in a total war situation, not the actual war

[danoc]

Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$81.48 billion (2005 est.)
Military expenditures - percent of GDP:
4.3% (2005 est.)

fake facts.

china have bought last year military equipment for 20 billion $

in real have china ca 400-600 billion military budget.

i have talk about USA and his allies. not about only USA alone.

China has the largest active standing army. 2.3 million?

active standing?

haha.. you mean that all simple workers and their families, which do working in chinese armys fabrics and army-farmers in "autonomic republics", north and west-china and tibet?

Anyone going for an invasion of China these days are just stupid.

i agree with u. it is realy stupid.

I also agree that invading USA is stupid too

YUP..

but even the usa can't beat china easily.

you mean conquer or only destroy without invasation?

This post has been edited by danoc: Apr 8 2006, 06:10 PM

[millersdude]

China can indeed be beaten, but most likely won't be beaten by any country other than the us.

but even the usa can't beat china easily...think about it, they got to bring all the ships and planes across half the globe and china can just counter with ground based missles. You have to like china's chances at fighting a defensive war.....

when i said total war, i meant without using nukes (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) or else it wouldn't be much of a war

i just said who can make more weapons in a total war situation, not the actual war

Nope, USA can't beat China in a non-nuclear conventional war. Mostly like China can beat USA and the world. China has too huge an army to defeat and weapon technologies in par or greater than USA. China has approx. 2.5 millions in active services and maybe 600 millions in reserve. The sheer size will smash any other armies in the world into pieces. Like I said before, China has weapons that can neutralize any threats from air carriers, submarines, satellites, jetfighters including F/A 22, tanks, etc... USA couldn't even defeat China in both Vietnam and Korea War when China was very weak. Right now USA certainly can't do it. If China had helped Iraq to fight against USA like Vietnam, USA certainly would have had lost the war.

[tinman01]

Nope, USA can't beat China in a non-nuclear conventional war. Mostly like China can beat USA and the world. China has too huge an army to defeat and weapon technologies in par or greater than USA. China has approx. 2.5 millions in active services and maybe 600 millions in reserve. The sheer size will smash any other armies in the world into pieces. Like I said before, China has weapons that can neutralize any threats from air carriers, submarines, satellites, jetfighters including F/A 22, tanks, etc... USA couldn't even defeat China in both Vietnam and Korea War when China was very weak. Right now USA certainly can't do it. If China had helped Iraq to fight against USA like Vietnam, USA certainly would have had lost the war.

The us military in Korea and Vietnam v.s today completely different. China's subs are no match for american subs or anti submarine warfare assets. Us would rule the oceans but to beat China you must go inland. This is where China has the clear advantage. You are correct in you theory about logistics. This is why the USA won't go to war with China unless backed into a corner. China's subs are good as compared to most other nations but both England and the USA build the quietest most efficient subs in the world. Russia has the Akula class which is comparable to first generation La class attack boats. The US has invested heavily into building leathal subs. It was my job in the Navy to hunt subs so in this area I feel quite confident. To find a US boat you look for a hole in the sound every ocean makes. A needle in a hay stack. Other boats have distinctive mechanical sounds. We have every Russian boat made cataloged and identified by thier unique sounds. Some Russian boats we were able to track at 50 miles or greater . Unfortunately for China many of her boats are of russian design and or manufacture. Russia builds a great fighter but as boats go they are weak in quality control. They have lost more subs than USa, england and france combined. Land war in china? China wins,war on the ocean USA . China just doesn't have the assets in place.

[dgs_vex]

^dude and just how do you think you will carry out your plan. do you expect the billions of troops to swim across? you probrally havent even gone to combat? what makes you think that chinese weapons are superior. even though china has the ability to neutrailze foreign weapons doesnt mean we cant neutralize yours.

the best vessels china has are the Yuting and Yukan Class amphibious assult carriers that can barley carry 200 compared to our 5000troops+30 aircraft. plus the chinese military doesnt even have enough ships to carry 500,000 of its own troops. china cannot win a war overseas with the US. the US has air, naval and space superiority.

in theory, chinese ships wont survive a voyage across the pacific. they wont have enough fuel to return home. it would be suicide to send troops on a one way mission that cannont be accomplished. what they are thinking of is invading taiwan, not the US.

This post has been edited by dgs_vex: Apr 8 2006, 08:17 PM

[millersdude]

The us military in Korea and Vietnam v.s today completely different. China's subs are no match for american subs or anti submarine warfare assets. Us would rule the oceans but to beat China you must go inland. This is where China has the clear advantage. You are correct in you theory about logistics. This is why the USA won't go to war with China unless backed into a corner. China's subs are good as compared to most other nations but both England and the USA build the quietest most efficient subs in the world. Russia has the Akula class which is comparable to first generation La class attack boats. The US has invested heavily into building leathal subs. It was my job in the Navy to hunt subs so in this area I feel quite confident. To find a US boat you look for a hole in the sound every ocean makes. A needle in a hay stack. Other boats have distinctive mechanical sounds. We have every Russian boat made cataloged and identified by thier unique sounds. Some Russian boats we were able to track at 50 miles or greater . Unfortunately for China many of her boats are of russian design and or manufacture. Russia builds a great fighter but as boats go they are weak in quality control. They have lost more subs than USa, england and france combined. Land war in china? China wins,war on the ocean USA . China just doesn't have the assets in place.

Actually, Chinese developed their own submarine technologies after a decade of using Russian submarine technologies. China new-generation submarines are virtually silent with diesel engines as if they are ghosts contrast to nuclear-engine submarines which are very noisy. I heard new Chinese submarines can dive deeper and travel faster than any other submarines.

Chinese new-generation submarines are superior to US submarines, because China has always interested and invested a lot of money on building a better submarine. Mao once said even if making a better submarine destroys China economically, so be it. Chinese think whoever owns the the better submarines will rule the seas. That is why they set building a better submarine on high priority. Last years the world produced 20 advanced submarines. 15 of them were made in China whereas US had one. Right now I think China dominate the all the seas and oceans. Due to the superior of Chinese submarines, right now US and Japan are thinking to building a network of sensors hide under the sea to detect Chinese submarines.

Couple of years ago, Taiwan and China were high in tensions due to some political reasons. China was threaten to attack Taiwan. The US sent air carriers, submarines and destroyers to Taiwan sea straits as a way of protecting Taiwan. Upon on the straits, US naval ships and submarines detected fainted signals emit from Chinese submarines. US commanders then ordered their submarines and destroyers to investigate the locations of these Chinese submarines. As soon as they began to investigate these Chinese submarines, the signals from these submarines emit were disappear and untraceable as they were ghosts. The US commanders immediately felt threaten, scared and unsecured, because they were not sure where were those Chinese submarines, and those Chinese submarines could be potentially anywhere waiting or hunting them. Therefore they ordered all their ships and submarines back away from Taiwan straits and retreated hastily back to the Hawaii.

[millersdude]

^dude and just how do you think you will carry out your plan. do you expect the billions of troops to swim across? you probrally havent even gone to combat? what makes you think that chinese weapons are superior. even though china has the ability to neutrailze foreign weapons doesnt mean we cant neutralize yours.

the best vessels china has are the Yuting and Yukan Class amphibious assult carriers that can barley carry 200 compared to our 5000troops+30 aircraft. plus the chinese military doesnt even have enough ships to carry 500,000 of its own troops. china cannot win a war overseas with the US. the US has air, naval and space superiority.

in theory, chinese ships wont survive a voyage across the pacific. they wont have enough fuel to return home. it would be suicide to send troops on a one way mission that cannont be accomplished. what they are thinking of is invading taiwan, not the US.

Actually, China doesn't want to fight with anyone. Its main goal is to defend its land and its people by building a better military. China certainly has the capabilities to send its troops to USA. As you know, China is the manufacture capital of the world. China has the resources and abilities to build as many big ships and airplanes as they want. In fact, China is the largest ship builder in the world. Let say in a war scenario China fight against USA. After China neutralize the US air forces and naval forces, China then can ship or air-drop its troops to USA to fight with the army force As I said,China weapons are in par or superior than the USA and even more so in the near future due to Chinese invested a lot of money on researching advancing its weaponry. Please do some researches on China's weaponry or see my other posts about Chinese's weapons.

[dgs_vex]

any further discussion will always lead to the result that we will eventually get two losers.

[aishin]

u guys are sad, fantasing over a war between china and the usa. Pathetic!! when i was kid, i used ot think like this too... but really, sometimes argiung over these issues really makes me sick.
reality = no war between china and the usa
neither side can defeat the other, neither side really wants to fight, because it bring no economic and political benefit.
its like asking, russia to fight germany right now.

[bayard]

fake facts.

china have bought last year military equipment for 20 billion $

in real have china ca 400-600 billion military budget.

i have talk about USA and his allies. not about only USA alone.
active standing?

haha.. you mean that all simple workers and their families, which do working in chinese armys fabrics and army-farmers in "autonomic republics", north and west-china and tibet?
i agree with u. it is realy stupid.
YUP..
you mean conquer or only destroy without invasation?

as I've said you really have o provide some sources for these numbers you pull out of the air. CIA world factbook already put into account the amount of money that RD and hidden purchases China is allegedly to have. Official numbers given by CHina was 35 billion. 85 billion is Us's estimate which is already 4.6% of GDP

[danoc]

as I've said you really have o provide some sources for these numbers you pull out of the air. CIA world factbook already put into account the amount of money that RD and hidden purchases China is allegedly to have. Official numbers given by CHina was 35 billion. 85 billion is Us's estimate which is already 4.6% of GDP

CIA is a that big famous american Intelligence Agency wich dont get that Soviet Union was dead.
(or that nice nuklear weapons in irak)

Do you think realy they do know how big millitary budget of China is?

And if then they do it, i dont belive that they do publicate this on their websites.

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/kiss.gif)

btw. i have hear this numbers in a interview from one USA-thinktank analyst.

This post has been edited by danoc: Apr 9 2006, 06:37 AM