Morality Options

[gicheru]

A. )If you were given an invisible cloak or you knew you could get away with the most tempting crimes, would you commit them? Tell us why.

B.) If you said no; What if this power was temporary (one day).

C.) If you still said no; If you knew you wouldn't feel guilty would you be tempted?



For example:
1. Robbing a bank
2. Getting some ready good expensive food for free.
3. Making things go your way in terms of your future, your current love obsession, your reputation etc.,

My answers:
A.) Yes. Why? I know my limits but my limits supercede the actual law. My hypothesis is most people do have limits but the actual law doesn't define those limits.

[Manun]

Why not. Moral is just an evolutionary thing to save others along with me.


EDIT: I think i wouldnt. But its not cause something called moral exist, its mostly cause of my upbringing. If i contradicted my own family and society teachings then wouldnt i just contradict myself living by them my whole life? Society punishes u with the idea of being a malfunction of the society as ur parents are losers for creating u.
Im pretty sure that most ppl would say they wouldnt do a crime cause the idea of "what is good in the world" would shatter, but its an idea of society and ur evolutionary bounded brain to save this thing called society.

This post has been edited by Manun: Apr 9 2006, 04:19 PM

[gicheru]

But you admitted that morality doesn't exist and rather what makes you act properly is the gaze of the Other or rather the gaze of society.

Society saves itself by instilling its values into its constituents but only because it keeps a watchful eye. If it can't then I don't see what's holding you back?

[Suijen]

A. )If you were given an invisible cloak or you knew you could get away with the most tempting crimes, would you commit them? Tell us why.

B.) If you said no; What if this power was temporary (one day).

C.) If you still said no; If you knew you wouldn't feel guilty would you be tempted?
For example:
1. Robbing a bank
2. Getting some ready good expensive food for free.
3. Making things go your way in terms of your future, your current love obsession, your reputation etc.,

My answers:
A.) Yes. Why? I know my limits but my limits supercede the actual law. My hypothesis is most people do have limits but the actual law doesn't define those limits.

1. Peeping/Stealing/Vigilante

Yes, because I find that I gain much more than society loses.

[Manun]

But you admitted that morality doesn't exist and rather what makes you act properly is the gaze of the Other or rather the gaze of society.

Society saves itself by instilling its values into its constituents but only because it keeps a watchful eye. If it can't then I don't see what's holding you back?

Like I said. There is no moral, but i didnt say that society and my parents didnt teach me it. So that means if i did the crime, and being such a moral brought up good kid i would probably question my own actions that i probably wouldnt do it in the first place. Cause i would think of my parents and that they are losers trying to teach me this and that, when i fully know in my logical brain that such stuff doesnt exist.

This post has been edited by Manun: Apr 9 2006, 04:49 PM

[Suijen]

If you want to find the root of morality, look at it as it evolves from animal to civilization.

In such a sense, morality and law were pretty much intertwinted.

[sweetntwisted]

Cause i would think of my parents and that they are losers trying to teach me this and that, when i fully know in my logical brain that such stuff doesnt exist.

how about when you yourself have kids? You would have to teach your kids right from wrong, even though morality does not exist...dont you agree?
my personal belief is that only after you learned about morality, you find out it doesnt exist and only then you can/should come to the conclusion that you dont need it.

This post has been edited by sweetntwisted: Apr 9 2006, 06:49 PM

[laguna]

Why do people immediately associate invisibility with crime? It has the potential for good too.

For what is worth, optical camouflage technology is advancing quite well recently.

[Manun]

how about when you yourself have kids? You would have to teach your kids right from wrong, even though morality does not exist...dont you agree?
my personal belief is that only after you learned about morality, you find out it doesnt exist and only then you can/should come to the conclusion that you dont need it.

No, morality doesnt still exist. I can teach my children the opposite moral in a society. Thats how most mafia bosses teach their kids and thats the only sole reason they dont know whats wrong from right.

[Chinese DesertFo...]

What kind of ****tard obeys the laws of morality?

Do whatever it takes to win, and don't let anything stop you.

[gicheru]

I think there is some confusion. What I believe Manun is trying to stay is there is no universal structure that tells us what is right and what is wrong. I'm pretty sure Manun has read Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morals where Nietzsche proves that "morality" is really just a historical/cultural product. It's basically what a society thinks is right at a certain point in time.

So the real question is should I follow the values of my society?

Well there's also another question, "what's stopping me from not following the values of my society if morals don't exist?"

Well it's been suggested, it's because ethics and morality is really how society judges you not how you judge what's right from wrong. Hence the concept of guilt. Nietzsche was trying to prove otherwise, saying that it's better that the morality of the powerful is the best form because with guilt, according to him, Christianity is trying to instill its own values on society. Guilt is what you feel when you do something "wrong", but Nietzsche believes guilt is essentially a Christian construct meant to overthrow the morality of the those in power. What he calls slave morality.

I personally agree with Chinese Desert Fox, fu-k Christianity. I wanna kick some @$$.

This post has been edited by gicheru: Apr 11 2006, 09:16 AM

[sweetntwisted]

so manun would feel 'guilt' b/c of his parents, that's why he wouldnt commit the crime even if he can get away with it wheareas you would commit the crime...b/c you would not feel guilt (I mean in a hypothetical situation lol)


but raping children/women/men, killing people who has not done harm to you, infecting the masses with diseases would be wrong in any society with any moral codes and the #3 on your list: Making things go your way in terms of your future, your current love obsession, your reputation etc....well for some people that might mean doing the things I listed.

[Suijen]

It wouldn't make sense to do so in any case. Animals don't kill each other for sport.

[gicheru]

so manun would feel 'guilt' b/c of his parents

Not just his parents but how the society would view his actions.

but raping children/women/men, killing people who has not done harm to you, infecting the masses with diseases would be wrong in any society with any moral codes and the #3 on your list

Well if you don't view someone as a human or essentially inferior to you then you have the capability of doing much harm to them. That's why you do your best to act proper around people you respect. Or why you feel really really dumb when you do something embarassing in front of a person you really really like. Where it wouldn't really matter if you did something stupid in front your cat. When you're around that person, the world doesn't seem to matter. If you viewed the Iraqis as essentially Americans, would you be ok with bombings the crap out of them? You may have not been ok with it even if they aren't Americans but if they were, you would certainly take more action towards preventing the war. Would Bush bomb Americans?

I still don't understand rapist mentality. If you really wanted to harm someone in that way, surely you wouldn't give a damn about them. Would you rob your parents? Would you beat a children with a baseball bat? It all depends on your opinion of someone. If it's high, then you are careful to act like a decent person around them.

This post has been edited by gicheru: Apr 11 2006, 03:16 PM

[sweetntwisted]

I said

for some people that might mean doing the things I listed.

and I am still right.

and in your other post you said:

'Guilt is what you feel when you do something "wrong", but Nietzsche believes guilt is essentially a Christian construct meant to overthrow the morality of the those in power'

Guilt may have been created for 'the people in power' but they are the group least likely to feel guilt and more likely to punish others for not living up to their standards, and making the people they view as inferior feel more guilt for not being able to afford luxuries, top-notch education for their children etc.
So what you said is wrong or what Nietzsche said is wrong.

yea how are those in power ever going to view.... lets say... people in third world countries as their equal w/o guilt? They should be feeling more guilt! not letting go of it.
those in power need to follow the codes of morality the most. If they dont, forget their morality being overthrown, they need to be overthrown.

This post has been edited by sweetntwisted: Apr 11 2006, 04:17 PM

[gicheru]

b/c in our society most of us are always going to view some people as inferior and some as superior then us

Not at all. I may not like most people but that doesn't mean I view them as inferior. By inferior, I mean like really really inferior. Like Jews in Nazi Germany or Tutsis in Hutu Rwanda. Seriously, just imagine yourself raping someone, you would have to have a really big lack of concern for them.

Don't you ever feel awkward when you're making a class presentation or talking to crowd of people? That's what I'm talking about. That unease. How about when you see a homeless person. You ever feel guilt, if you pass them without giving them money? What if someone stares at you? That awkwardness.

Whereas if an animal stared at you, you wouldn't really care as much, or even notice in the first place. You don't place as much value on an animal as a human because animals can't judge you in ways you can comprehend. So you don't care. If you were talking to room full of cats, would you give a damn as much as people?

Guilt may have been created for 'the people in power'

Not quite, it was a way of justifying the morality of the Christians who were weak. It worked seeing as Christianity was the new rage and things like democracy came about. People starting conceiving of "individual rights", whereas before absolute power was dominant.

This post has been edited by gicheru: Apr 11 2006, 04:17 PM

[sweetntwisted]

well I dont see the homeless as inferior. and I have felt guilty when I pass a homeless person without giving money. When I used to live in NYC I used to talk to this homeless guy at grand central station and no I didnt care that people stared. I dont know what you're getting at.... are you saying am I supposed to want to stab him instead b/c he is homeless?

why are you bringing animals into this??
and there are some people care more about animals then they do about humans. They rather save animals then the poor.

Not quite, it was a way of justifying the morality of the Christians who were weak. It worked seeing as Christianity was the new rage and things like democracy came about. People starting conceiving of "individual rights", whereas before absolute power was dominant.

Whatever, people who hide behind power and money are the weakest, regardless of whether they are christians or not.

This post has been edited by sweetntwisted: Apr 11 2006, 04:37 PM

[gicheru]

well I dont see the homeless as inferior.

that's the point! you are supposed to feel guilty because you don't see them as inferior. If you did, the guilt would not be there.

I'm bringing animals into this to contrast the feeling they produce compared to people. Animals don't produce the guilt people do when they stare at you.

Whatever, people who hide behind power and money are the weakest, regardless of whether they are christians or not.

If you say so. I'm only showing the genealogy of morality.

[sweetntwisted]

that's the point! you are supposed to feel guilty because you don't see them as inferior. If you did, the guilt would not be there.

I'm bringing animals into this to contrast the feeling they produce compared to people. Animals don't produce the guilt people do when they stare at you.

just b/c we would have guilt about such things doesnt mean everyone would...
and it's easy for people like me and you to guilty about these things when we have such comfortable lives and are able actually eat on a daily basis... but if we were put into situations where we were 'hungry' enough we would kill to eat.
But I guess my point is... when people kill b/c they are hungry/desperate is understandable but doing those things just for the hell of it b/c you have an invisable cloak or b/c you can would make you pathetic. and it would mean you obviously have a hunger for something and it's not being met...in which case 'morality' can probably help you.

This post has been edited by sweetntwisted: Apr 11 2006, 04:57 PM

[Manun]

just b/c we would have guilt about such things doesnt mean everyone would...
and it's easy for people like me and you to guilty about these things when we have such comfortable lives and are able actually eat on a daily basis... but if we were put into situations where we were 'hungry' enough we would kill to eat.
But I guess my point is... when people kill b/c they are hungry/desperate is understandable but doing those things just for the hell of it b/c you have an invisable cloak or b/c you can would make you pathetic. and it would mean you obviously have a hunger for something and it's not being met...in which case 'morality' can probably help you.

Pathetic for who?
a,U?
b,God?
c,Society?
Seeing that
c, cant see it ur not pathetic infront of them.
a, sure isnt pathetic if he thinks hes not pathetic. U view urself after what u think is correct.
b,? Well seeing how hes helped my choices in my whole life i can c.........no point in that too. Even thought there might be a god, but i dont view him as a holy being but just universe with it natural movement.