Philippine Claim To Sabah, North Borneo, Sultanate of Sulu is rightful owner Options

[Sirikittong]

Malaccan. What is your take in this issue?

I personally believe that Sabah should be given back to the Sultanate of Sulu, which is part of the Republic of the Philippines. Ive heard enough from the indonesian, and filipino points of views. I want to hear yours.

Salamat dateng, my friend.

[malaccan]

Malaccan. What is your take in this issue?

I personally believe that Sabah should be given back to the Sultanate of Sulu, which is part of the Republic of the Philippines. Ive heard enough from the indonesian, and filipino points of views. I want to hear yours.

Salamat dateng, my friend.

Hey man. Sorry for the late reply. AF died on me several times! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/madgo.gif)
Sabahans only ever feel that they are Malaysians. They all identify as being Malaysians. They would not want to be returned to the Sultanate of Sulu.

From time to time you read letters in Malaysian newspapers from Sabahans themselves saying that they are worried about the changing demographics of the state with the influx from people from south Philippines.

So if it's up to the folks in Sabah, there is no question about their intentions of being a Malaysian state. But as you can read from the previous posts, the issue here seems to be whether Malaysia has any say on the land itself in the first place. If this were to go to the ICJ, I believe that Malaysia will have the upper hand, in which case the will of the people would play a main role in the judgement. Certainly Malaysia will go all out to defend its position.

Compared this to the far south of Thailand, even if a minority of the folks there have a dream of joining Malaysia citing ties to the old Sultanate of Pattani (which is reciprocated by some relatives across the border), the Malaysian govt will never endorse this proposal.

Just my take on things. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Sirikittong]

Hey man. Sorry for the late reply. AF died on me several times! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/madgo.gif)
Sabahans only ever feel that they are Malaysians. They all identify as being Malaysians. They would not want to be returned to the Sultanate of Sulu.

From time to time you read letters in Malaysian newspapers from Sabahans themselves saying that they are worried about the changing demographics of the state with the influx from people from south Philippines.

So if it's up to the folks in Sabah, there is no question about their intentions of being a Malaysian state. But as you can read from the previous posts, the issue here seems to be whether Malaysia has any say on the land itself in the first place. If this were to go to the ICJ, I believe that Malaysia will have the upper hand, in which case the will of the people would play a main role in the judgement. Certainly Malaysia will go all out to defend its position.

Compared this to the far south of Thailand, even if a minority of the folks there have a dream of joining Malaysia citing ties to the old Sultanate of Pattani (which is reciprocated by some relatives across the border), the Malaysian govt will never endorse this proposal.

Just my take on things. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

That is where I disagree. The entire north east portion of borneo was given to the sultan of sulu via the sultanate of brunei in a treaty in 1703; for over 303 years, the region has always been seen as part of the Sulu Sultanate; and British illegality in its failure to return the leased region to the Sulu Sultanate should be at fault. Sabah, historically and legally belongs to the Philippines. Unofficially, Sabah is also home to an estimated 700,000 strong Filipino population due to lax immigration controls and poor policing of the Malaysia-Philippines national border. While the local and federal government do not officially recognise the existence of Filipino illegal immigrants, they are widely employed commercially, forming the bulk of manual labour in construction and other sections of commerce. 700,000 people in a state whose population is around 2 million.

As for your reference to southern Thailand; let me remind you of this, my friend:

(IMG:http://www.dcothai.com/download/thai-map.jpg)

Prior to the 9th century A.D., civilisation of the Malay peninsula consisted of a number of independent city-states: Pahang, Trengkanu, Kelantan, Tamphonling (present-day Nakhon Si Thammarat), Khorahi (Chaiya), Langkhasuka (in Malaysia), Keta (Sai Buri), Hrarak Kola (Takua Pa), and Panpala (in Myanmar). From the 11th-13th centuries, they were consolidated into a single mighty military and commercial power known as the Srivijiya Empire, its ruins and artifacts, show a strong Indian cultural influence.

After the disintegration of the empire in the 13th century, Nakhon Si Thammarat became an independent kingdom and extended its power over other cities in this peninsula before it was brought under the dominion of Ayutthaya in the 14th century.

During the early Rattanakosin period (early 19th century), the southern provinces remained largely autonomous under the control of principal governors. However, due to the dangers posed by Western colonial expansionism in South Asia, King Rama IV sought to enlarge his authority over the region and made two personal visits to the area to strengthen the relationship between the southern provinces and Bangkok.

The massive administrative reforms under King Rama V included the consolidation of the southern provinces into several regions with administrative centres at Phuket, Chumphon, Nakhon Si Thammarat and Pattani; each under the direct control of Bangkok.

The southern regions have always been part of the Ayuthayan Empire/Siam/Thailand for almost 7 centuries. Their relation to us is as old as the Thai state itself. It will ETERNALLY be part of Thailand. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

This post has been edited by Sirikittong: Feb 17 2006, 04:17 PM

[Ek-ek]

What i know is that Perlis and Kedah was once part of Siam then siezed by the British when they made Malaya a colony then in 1941 with the aid of the Japanese Siam had demanded and to some point even controlled these two states, In 1946 When Thailand was sponsored by GB in United Nation they had to return Kedah and Perlis to Malaya.

[malaccan]

Cool, guys! Tis good to have this kind of exchanges between neighbours. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

Just one thing Ek-ek. Siam had already ceded Kelantan, Terengganu, Kedah and Perlis in the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909. And Siri, thanks for mentioning Srivijaya in your entry.

[Ek-ek]

Yeah, It was forced to them by British .It was a part of then Kingdom of Siam.

It is not only those 4 states that Siam had lost but also some parts of Cambodia .

The story is the same with Sabah, Turtle islands of the Philippines.
The big question is is "why" would Malaysia pay the heirs of the Sultan of Sulu $5,000 ringgit until now if it was legally under Malaysia?

The proof is that the 19th century paper said that it was "lease" not sell by the sultan of sulu.

And 12 days after the Philippines gained independence from the US in July , 4, 1946 why would the British returned some of the turtle islands to the Philippines? If they were part of the the Malaysian archipelago.

Under the Spanish colonial rule the extent of the jurisdiction of the Philippines is up to the present day Guam, Marianas and Caroline islands.

[halohalo]

i'm amazed and glad that this ddnt turn into a flame war yet! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Ek-ek]

What do you think of us? We had the least number of flame wars among the chat sites!

We are a peaceful site!

[malaccan]

i'm amazed and glad that this ddnt turn into a flame war yet! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)   (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Not under our watch, we old-timers (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/Talktohand.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/wheelchair.gif)
But when the newbies come... (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_confused.gif)

[Ek-ek]

Plus the fact that no matter how we argue about history etc...
Sabah , Sarawak, Kedah, Perlis,Kelantan, Terengganu are already part of Malaysia

[pancaindera]

Sabahans only ever feel that they are Malaysians. They all identify as being Malaysians. They would not want to be returned to the Sultanate of Sulu.

as a sabahan, i agree with this. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif)

So if it's up to the folks in Sabah, there is no question about their intentions of being a Malaysian state. But as you can read from the previous posts, the issue here seems to be whether Malaysia has any say on the land itself in the first place. If this were to go to the ICJ, I believe that Malaysia will have the upper hand, in which case the will of the people would play a main role in the judgement. Certainly Malaysia will go all out to defend its position.

yes. what matters is HERE AND NOW. historical facts dont carry much weight these days. look at gibraltar. the people dont want to be under spanish rule. so even today they remain a british colony of some sort. what matters most for the ICJ is effective occupation and the status quo. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif)

This post has been edited by pancaindera: Feb 17 2006, 06:49 PM

[Ek-ek]

But you must never maltreat any Filipinos are giving them spoiled food and raping women prisoners

[pancaindera]

^ hi.
are u saying filipinos are given spoiled food and the women gets raped in prison, IN MALAYSIA ? where did u hear this?

[Ek-ek]

Yeah! They were maltreated many of them were documented and The UN had even conducted several investigations about the reports

That was not even shown in Malaysian television and media because they were even censored !

[poknat]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsdown.gif) Old News!

Macapagal vows justice
for abused Filipinos
Posted: 8:07 AM (Manila Time) | Sep.. 08, 2002
By Carlito Pablo
Inquirer News Service

PRESIDENT Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo on Saturday vowed to seek justice for Filipinos who have been abused in Malaysia, pledging to "to comfort them in their despair," as she set out an eight-point strategy to address the problem of thousands of Filipino returnees from Sabah.

In her weekly radio address, the President also urged the public to unite to help the thousands of Filipinos returning from Malaysia after a crackdown on illegal immigrants.




She said she had acted quickly on reports that a 13-year-old Filipino girl had been sexually abused at one of the Malaysian detention centers.

But she refrained from blaming the Malaysian government for the situation and praised Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad for calling a moratorium on the deportations.

In Kuala Lumpur, Malaysian police have set up a task force to investigate the alleged rape of the 13-year-old girl, the New Straits Times newspaper reported.

The chief of the Criminal Investigation Department, Salleh Mat Som, said the task force would be assisted by Interpol.

"We would like to conduct a thorough investigation with the help of the Philippine police," Salleh said.

"It is important that the whole nation unites on this issue," Ms Macapagal said, recalling that she and Congress leaders on Friday outlined a strategy to help the deportees.

She said the country should focus on "how to protect the returnees and the remaining Filipinos in Sabah while seeking justice for the abuses they endured."

This would include the Department of Foreign Affairs compiling more testimonies from the victims of abuse for a possible legal complaint to be filed in Malaysia, she said.

The Philippine consular office will also ask to be allowed to visit the detention centers to provide legal assistance to the deportees while the DFA asks Malaysia to improve the conditions at the centers.

The President said the government would also work to ensure that more Filipinos could legally find work in Malaysia, including by seeking labor agreements "more beneficial to our countrymen."

The DFA will help some deportees get the proper documents "so they can obtain work permits so they can return" to Malaysia, she said.

Thousands of Filipino illegal migrants have been leaving the Malaysian state of Sabah in recent weeks due to a Malaysian crackdown on illegal migrants.

Reports of maltreatment of the deportees have stirred outrage in the country, prompting some legislators to call for the revival of a dormant Philippine claim to Sabah.

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsdown.gif)
Manila protests to Malaysia over sex attack on deportee
Independent, The (London), Sep 5, 2002 by Oliver Teves in Manila
MALAYSIAN POLICE deporting illegal immigrants sexually abused a 13- year-old Filipina girl in detention, Philippine officials said yesterday in a sharp protest to Malaysia.

President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo expressed her "personal outrage" in a letter to the Malaysian Prime Minister, the second official protest she has made about alleged mistreatment of Filipinos in Malaysia's crackdown on illegal workers.

The campaign has led to some 300,000 migrants leaving Malaysia in recent months and has led to street protests in Indonesia and the Philippines, home to most of the workers.

The Philippine Foreign Minister, Blas Ople, said hospital records and reports showed that a 13-year-old girl had been sexually abused by Malaysian police while awaiting deportation. The Social Welfare Minister, Corazon Soliman, said social workers helping arriving deportees in the southern Philippines noticed the girl acting strangely. She told them police molested her while in detention in Kota Kinabalu.

"I express my personal outrage and that of the Filipino people," Mr Ople quoted Ms Arroyo as saying in her letter to the Malaysian Prime Minister, Mahathir Mohamed.

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsdown.gif)
Deportees: Sabah
cops abused Filipinas
Posted: 11:45 PM (Manila Time) | Sep.. 02, 2002
By Julie S. Alipala
Inquirer News Service


BONGAO, Tawi-Tawi -- Seven policemen in Tauao, Malaysia, are making sex slaves of detained Filipino women, according to Filipinos recently expelled from that country.

In an interview at the Datu Halun Sakilan Memorial Hospital here, Mohsin Akbirul of South Laud in Siasi, Sulu, identified the leader of the alleged predators as a Private Azri of the Tauao Police Station.

Akbirul named two women, one of whom, he said, was "the most requested Christian Filipina" by the Tauao police.

"They are seven in all and their leader is Azri. He is handsome and tall, but crude and offensive," Akbirul, 43, said in Filipino.

Akbirul said a woman would be taken out of the detention cell and brought to an upstairs room, which the policemen would subsequently enter one by one. He said the woman would emerge from the room late at night.

Innah Ayyul of Cagayan de Tawi-Tawi said she often saw the policemen ordering female Christian prisoners to go to the second floor of the station.

"They choose those who are good-looking and fair-skinned, and they never choose their fellow Muslims," Ayyul, 24, told the Inquirer.

Ayyul said the women would be ordered to go upstairs in the morning. "They come down at night or even in the morning of the next day. But they seem happy because they are given food and always allowed to use the bathroom," she said.

Jumadam Jaiman of Sitangkay in Siasi made the same claim. He described Azri as tall, "pero masyadong hambog (but very arrogant)."

"He'd just point to a woman and tell her to go upstairs," said Jaiman, 54. "Sometimes the woman would stay there the whole night. When she came back, she'd have food with her."

Akbirul said that when he asked the women he named what they were doing upstairs, they said they were only talking with the policemen.

Bongao parish priest Father Rito Daquipil, OMI, said that if the Malaysian police could "maltreat children and infants, what more sexually abuse women?"

"It's just that the victims are ashamed to relate their experience," he said.

Daquipil called on the abused women to come forward. He also urged the Philippine government to do something about the alleged sex slavery.

Provincial Social Welfare Officer Hania Aliakbar said she had also heard stories about the supposed abuses, and lamented the fact that no one was willing to bear witness. "We cannot prove these allegations unless somebody is brave enough to admit her ordeal," Aliakbar said.

[pancaindera]

^ damn. im sorry to hear that. if those are true, i just hope whoever perpetrated these abuses be punished accordingly, whether by law, god or karma. they are evil, stupid and irresponsible. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsdown.gif)
the last story seems a bit bogus though, imo (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_confused.gif)

[Ek-ek]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/confused.gif) Do not cover up what happened to those poor people ! They have rights!

Published: 09/10/2002 12:00 AM (UAE)



Three more Filipinas abused in Sabah
Barbara Mae Dacanay


Malaysian policemen allegedly raped three Filipinas in a detention centre in Sabah, a Filipino-Muslim told government lawyers upon her arrival in Tawi-Tawi, southern Philippines.

"My three friends, Jenny, Angie, and Joyce were raped by the Malaysian policemen," a woman named Grace told Perida Acosta, head of the Public Attorney's Office.

"They were forced. They were brought to a place far away from the detention centre. They could not say no because their attackers were policemen," said Grace, whose family name was not revealed.

Grace, Marivic, and Rosa narrated horrifying tales about the detention centres in Sabah.
"I have not seen the women who were raped again. Maybe they were left behind in the detention centre," she revealed.

Earlier, one of those deported said seven policemen made two Filipino women virtual sex slaves in a detention centre in Tuwao, Sabah.

"I was so angry with Nur Jafaar (head of the government delegation) who told President Gloria Arroyo that our condition at the detention centre had improved after their arrival," said Grace.

"What was he talking about? We told him that we were forced to stay under the sun from 10 to 12 noon before we were given food," said Grace.

"We were given rotten and worm-infested food. We could hardly eat the food that was served to us".

Grace said she suffered from partial deafness in the left ear because she was often chained and mauled by the Malaysian policemen. "They punished me for being outspoken."

Acosta said she was glad that many of the deported women have expressed their willingness to give statements on how they were treated at the detention centres in Sabah.

"We are getting more statements from them. They are not shy any more. We need more assistance," noted Acosta.

Her team was tasked with substantiating reports that the Filipino-Muslims were raped, maltreated, and not given food while detained prior to their deportation from Sabah.

The government lawyers are now preparing to gather data on reported deaths of babies and teenagers due to malnutrition and congestion in the detention areas, sources said.

The Philippine government will continue to gather its own evidence for the purpose of filing complaints before the United Nations Human Rights Commission, said foreign affairs spokesman, Victoriano Lecaros.

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohammed had called for the investigation of the alleged rape of a 13-year-old Filipino girl by Malaysian police at the detention centre in Kota Kinabalu.

Arroyo has also set up the legislative and executive council which was tasked with gathering evidence on cases of abuse and maltreatment committed by the Malaysian authorities against deported Filipinos in Sabah.

The Philippines will use the investigation made in Malaysia, and with the statements of the deported Filipino-Muslims to bring the issue before the UN body, said Lecaros.

The council has yet to decide whether it will send the 13-year-old rape victim to Malaysia to file the complaint or just take a deposition, either written or oral.

Commission on Human Rights (CHR) chairman, Purificacion Quisumbing, noted Malaysia has violated three conventions on the reported maltreatment of the deported Filipinos by its police authorities.

The UN conventions include the declaration on human rights, convention on the rights of the child and the convention on the elimination of discrimination and abuse against women.

The CHR initiative is an independent move and not in coordination with the action of the other government agencies, said Quisumbing.

Hundreds of thousands of deported Filipinos were forcibly thrown out of Malaysia, following a new immigration law that imposes stiff penalties on illegal migrants.

The Philippine government has filed two consecutive diplomatic protests against Malaysia and Arroyo sent a note to Mahathir when she learned about the rape of the 13-year-old Filipino girl.

[malaccan]

Shame on those people! Boo!

I hereby dedicate my 3000th post to long-lasting friendship and goodwill between the Philippines and Malaysia! Two nations connected by geography (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) , ethnicity (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (I hope ejay's not around (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) ) and a common ASEAN purpose (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/love2.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[pancaindera]

i would give three cheers to that! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
mabuhay pilipinas-malaysia-asean!!! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif)

[lackor]

Malaccan. What is your take in this issue?

I personally believe that Sabah should be given back to the Sultanate of Sulu, which is part of the Republic of the Philippines. Ive heard enough from the indonesian, and filipino points of views. I want to hear yours.

Salamat dateng, my friend.

salamat dateng to you as well. My point of view is that i think All the oil is in sarawak right so if they want to work in sarawak then they'll need a visa and work permit to do it so they'll never join filli cos all the sabans want to work in sarawak. Sorry about that.

This post has been edited by lackor: Feb 17 2006, 08:15 PM