Philippine Claim To Sabah, North Borneo, Sultanate of Sulu is rightful owner Options

[martin_nuke]

It is true that Sabah is the most densely populated by filipinos in any country in the world. It is true that there are many job opportunities in Sabah than in Southern Philippines because of the Muslim Insurgence and Terrorism in Southern Mindanao which also originated from Sabah. Filipinos are also discrimitated, maltreated and deported in Sabah that is why they have to convert to Malaysian citizenship so they will be more legitimate and pretend not to be a Filipino.

There is now the Malaysia-Filipino Association in Sabah so Filipinos will have more protection.

This post has been edited by martin_nuke: Jan 17 2006, 03:41 AM

[Protoculture]

Sorry to butt in, but from Malaysian point of view:

I know that in malaysia they have this sort of affirmative action thing going where the malays(when I say malays I mean like the malay defined by the malaysian constitution) have a lot of help if not too much help from the government so that means the natives of sabah and sarawak won't get the benefits even though they are the people of that land

Both Sabah & Sarawak natives are considered Bumiputra & enjoyed the same rights & priviledges as Malays in Peninsular Malaysia enjoys.

Both Sabah & Sarawak states maintain quite a fair degree of autonomy powers, especially regarding local economy & lands, local parliaments of their own. Peninsular Malaysians have to get work permits to work in Sabah or Sarawak, while Sabahans & Sarawakians do not need work permits if they're working in Peninsular Malaysia. Peninsular Malaysians living in Borneo cannot even buy native lands here as they're the natives rights!

true, the basis of the Phil. claim is that the Sultanate of Sulu own Sabah... but can you research in the net for a moment? the Phil. is also interested in the oil Sabah produce....
besides, they will not convert into a Filipino that easy... they have better living standards there in Sabah...

Sabahans & Sarawakians through democratic process choose to be Malaysians. Why must they throw all that & become Filipino?

[Protoculture]

I think during the marcos era, there was an attempt to claim sabah by military means but failed. Marcos and the Sultan trained muslim soldiers at corregidor for that particular secret operation but when the muslim soldiers found out that they will be attacking their fellow muslims in sabah, they didn't like the idea so Marcos had to exterminate them.

Corregidor Massacre. One of the main reasons why Moros began their uprisings.

1. Malaysia does not pay the rent of Sabah to the Sultanate of Sulu.
2. Malaysia mistreated filipinos in Sabah either by genocide, rape, labor, etc...
3. Sabah is a haven and training base for terrorist groups like the Al Queda.

1. As if Sabahan cares about the Sultan heir .... whatsisname again?
2. There's no such thing as genocide or forced labor for ILLEGAL FILIPINO MIGRANTS. Though, illegals do become criminals, street beggars & a nuisance to local Sabahans. Waitaminute, last time I checked on genocide thingies, it occurred in Mindanao - whose country might that be, eh?
3. Hullo, its the South Filipino territories that is terrorist haven. Do I need to ring a bell? MILF? MNLF? Abu Sayyaf?

[Protoculture]

in reality there is furthur discrimination within bumiputra.
and malay people are often preferred over non-muslim bumiputras
when it comes to educational or other government grants.
this economic policy was introduced in response to the 1969 incident
hence it is designed by the malay leaders to remedy an essentially malay problem
of course sabahan and sarawakian natives do receive benefits from it
but not equal benefits as received by malays

You're wrong pancaindera. Sabahan & Sarawakian enjoy more economic rights in their states as opposed to us. We West Msian had to only looked how the Sabahan & Sarawakian natives enjoy their rights as guaranteed by autonomy given over to Sabah & Sarawak.

No other states in Malaysia enjoy that kind of autonomy.

I know that the Philippines is only interested in the oil of Sabah which will make Sulu & Sabah will prosper by supplying oil to the Philippines. Sabah will have more peace and freedom with the Philippines than with Malaysia.

I think the Sultanate of Sulu has another plan to reclaim Sabah using the Socio-Demographic Engineering where he populates Sabah with Muslim Filipinos until the Filipino population becomes the majority.

As if! Philippines Govt. cannot even guarantee peace in South Filipino. They can't enrich their own people. Economy is in the dumps. Freedom .... aaacccckkkk. Sabahan have more freedom if they remain with Malaysia.

[Protoculture]

The fate of North Borneo today shall only be determined through propreity and hereditary rights by the heirs, not even the Philippine government can act alone on this, whether to pursue the claim or drop it.

The fate of Sabah will be decided by her people, who undoubtedly MALAYSIAN.

No quarter about that.

It is true that Sabah is the most densely populated by filipinos in any country in the world. It is true that there are many job opportunities in Sabah than in Southern Philippines because of the Muslim Insurgence and Terrorism in Southern Mindanao which also originated from Sabah. Filipinos are also discrimitated, maltreated and deported in Sabah that is why they have to convert to Malaysian citizenship

Filipinos that are ill-treated in Sabah are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. They ain't legal. Which means they have to be deported, while Sabah Govt. had to pay from public funds for their fares back to Filipino.

The ones getting Msian citizenships are Mindanao refugees (not illegals) that were given exception & fled in 1970s to seek shelter in Sabah. Being in Msia for 30 yrs they succeeded in their application & become neutralised Malaysian citizen.

So thats basically covers it. I'm sorry if I'm being a little harsh in my postings, but I got tired of unsubstantiated Sabah's claim by Philippines. I get to dash any foolish hopes of Phil forummers dreams of acquiring Sabah as Phil territory.

Phil Govt. should ditch the claim & improve the lives of millions of its citizens still lived in poverty.

[Datu Mandub]

The fate of Sabah will be decided by her people, who undoubtedly MALAYSIAN.

No quarter about that.

I refer to the fate of the claim filed in ICJ

So far the Malaysian government is concerned it still honors the court decision in 1939, they are still paying every year. In 1958 before the Federation Taganak island (Turtle Island) was also given to the Sultan because he is about to settle the claim to the British in Jesselton.


Anyway, majority of the Sabahans nowadays has it's roots from Sulu. Not to mention it's first Minister who is from Jama Mapum (Cagayan de Tawi Tawi) and some big businessmen.

[martin_nuke]

3. Hullo, its the South Filipino territories that is terrorist haven. Do I need to ring a bell? MILF? MNLF? Abu Sayyaf?

The MILF, MNLF, Abu Sayyaf get their weapons from Sabah and its a fact.

New sultan of Sulu vows to
wrest Sabah from Malaysia


THE newly crowned sultan of Sulu in the southern Philippines said on Sunday he will fight to get back the state of Sabah from Malaysian control, claiming territorial rights over the North Borneo territory.

“I will fight for my family’s rights in the World Court,” Rodinood Julaspi Kiram 2nd told hundreds of followers outside a mosque in Quezon City, where he was crowned the 29th sultan of the Sultanate of Sulu and North Borneo.

“Malaysia is illegally occupying Sabah. Sabah is ours, we will take it back.”

Kiram said he was appalled to watch television images of Filipino women and children being maltreated by Malaysian police in several Sabah communities. Tens of thousands of Filipinos in Sabah have been sent back home since 2002.

“The Malaysians have no authority to expel Filipinos from Sabah because the territory belongs to us,” he said, adding he would enlist the help of the Philippine government to bring his case to the International Court of Justice.

Kiram, 56, is only now ascending to the sultanate’s throne, five years after his father’s death, because of confusion about succession rules. The last Sultan of Sulu left about 70 families as heirs.

Kiram said Malaysia helped Muslim rebels fight Manila in the 1970s, providing the separatists with sanctuaries, training bases, weapons and moral support. He said he knew about the Malaysia’s role in the rebellion because he was a former guerrilla leader himself.

Kiram said Malaysia has recently changed strategy and agreed to broker peace negotiations between the Philippine government and the Muslim rebels only to protect its claims on Sabah.

On Monday, President Arroyo will host a private dinner with Mahathir Mohamad, Malaysia’s former prime minister, due to address a business conference this week.

President Arroyo’s spokesman, Ignacio Bunye, said Mrs. Arroyo will thank Mahathir for his key role in brokering talks between the government and Muslim rebels, due to resume this month in Kuala Lumpur.

The dispute over Sabah is among long-standing irritants in ties between the two Southeast Asian nations, but was placed on the backburners as trade and investment links grew in the early 1990s.

The Sultanate of Sulu obtained Sabah from the Sultanate of Brunei as a gift for helping put down a rebellion on the Borneo Island. The British leased Sabah and transferred control over the territory to Malaysia after the end of Second World War.

Even after Sabah became part of Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur still pays an annual rent of 5,000 ringgit ($1,315) to the heirs of the Sultan of Sulu.

In the 1960s, the Philippines tried and failed to claim ownership of Sabah, including a bungled covert operation that helped trigger a Muslim rebellion in the 1970s

http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2004/o...041004top7.html

This post has been edited by martin_nuke: Jan 17 2006, 05:06 AM

[Datu Mandub]

This "Sultan" Rodinood Julaspi is only a pretender, in fact he cannot set foot in a place where he was crowned (Tandang Sora, Quezon City) because he fooled a lot of Muslims there, I was told by the council that he stashed away around 2 million ringgit in donations.

Rodinood Julaspi Kiram is not recognized by the heirs of Sulu nor related by blood to the Sultan who filed the 1962 North Borneo Claim. His Genealogy is questionable up to this day.

[pancaindera]

You're wrong pancaindera. Sabahan & Sarawakian enjoy more economic rights in their states as opposed to us. We West Msian had to only looked how the Sabahan & Sarawakian natives enjoy their rights as guaranteed by autonomy given over to Sabah & Sarawak.

I was talking from a broader perspective. in particular development of the
peoples (sabahans)' minds in order to compete with other races, ie: education.
in the UK i think 98% of the govt. sponsored students i see are ethnic malays.
where are the native sabahans and sarawakians? they r sent to some lousy
local institutions.
You are right though, we do have a fair degree of autonomy 'in our own state'.
the regulations regarding work permits and land ownership have its roots during
the formation of malaysia in '63. this im not a big fan myself.
I have witnessed honest and sincere west malaysian living in sabah for over
20 years but still unable to obtain a sabah PR.
A filipino can easily obtain a PR overnight. I blame corrupt leaders,
be they from the former ruling PBS or even current ruling BN (guided by federal govt).
But where can rights/autonomy in 'our own state' lead us in the future?
Without education/brains this 'autonomy' means nothing.
Yes, we also have a local parliament,
with a little bit of brilliance, magic and guile by federal govt,
we now have a 'disproportionate' power in our local parliament given
to the ethnic malay minorities.
i might be lying when i say disproportionate cos:
every muslim bumiputra are now considered 'malay'.
including most of the legal 1/2 million indonesian and filipino muslims
immigrants here in sabah are now 'malays'.
Im sorry maybe a bit off topic here.
Just to clear up, im NOT supporting philippines' claim to sabah, okay.
(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

This post has been edited by pancaindera: Jan 17 2006, 10:03 AM

[pancaindera]

I think the Sultanate of Sulu has another plan to reclaim Sabah using the Socio-Demographic Engineering where he populates Sabah with Muslim Filipinos until the Filipino population becomes the majority.

forgive my ignorance,
but does the Sultanate of Sulu still exist today?
do they practice 'any' amount of sovereignty over 'any' land today?
if not, it is up to RP to make a move, isnt it?

[pancaindera]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_confused.gif) HUMM, as far as we all know , Indonesia , Philippines had opposed the plan of creation of Malaysia even before it was given an independence from the British empire, Sarawak and Ligitan are being claimed by Indonesia and Sabah being claimed by the Sultan of Sulu , while Kedah and Perlis were once part of the Kingdom of Siam.

Philippines may use this fact as mere evidence to support their claim, but thats it.
It will not be sufficient to constitute as a basis or grounds of claim in itself.
IMHEO.

[martin_nuke]

forgive my ignorance,
but does the Sultanate of Sulu still exist today?
do they practice 'any' amount of sovereignty over 'any' land today?
if not, it is up to RP to make a move, isnt it?

Yes the Sultanate of Sulu still exists and the Philippine government has done everything to support the Sultan in the Sabah Claim but unfortunately I think there is no hope especially when I knew that the new Sultan of Sulu Rodinood Julaspi is not that genuine and its very sad I think this Sabah claim must be dropped for now.

I think the Philippine government must concentrate on the Spratleys dispute which is also of great concern.

This post has been edited by martin_nuke: Jan 17 2006, 10:21 AM

[martin_nuke]

Philippines may use this fact as mere evidence to support their claim, but thats it.
It will not be sufficient to constitute as a basis or grounds of claim in itself.
IMHEO.

The big question is "Why is Malaysia still paying rent to the Sultan of Sulu?" meaning that there is evidence that Sabah is not Malaysia's but it belongs to the Sultanate of Sulu.

This post has been edited by martin_nuke: Jan 17 2006, 10:26 AM

[Protoculture]

I refer to the fate of the claim filed in ICJ

Anyway, majority of the Sabahans nowadays has it's roots from Sulu. Not to mention it's first Minister who is from Jama Mapum (Cagayan de Tawi Tawi) and some big businessmen.

So what? Actually, majority of Sabahans, especially native Kadazandusun & Rungus plus Murut-Dyak tribes are native only to Sabah, not Sulu. Other ethnicities may have historical lienage with Sulu, but that's it. Ain't gonna do a jack to change Sabahans minds from becoming Filipino.

The MILF, MNLF, Abu Sayyaf get their weapons from Sabah and its a fact.

What facts? Where does it documented? From what we Malaysians know, majority of Jemaah Islamiyyah terrorists got basic trainings from South Filipino.

Hell, why would Abu Sayyaf crossed borders & kidnap foreigners in Malaysian Sabah's resort?

We symphatised with Moro's plights, but we ain't stupid to meddle into South Filipino's mess. Instead, Sabah was swamped with refugees back in 1970s & now illegal immigrants because Filipino Govt. was inefficient to clean up their back door in Mindanao isles.

When Nur Misuari fled to Msia after his final failed rebellion in 2004, the Sabah's Police ambushed & send him to ISA detention centre (reserved for suspected terrorists, fanatical political leaders or internal risks) in Peninsular Msia. Hell, for a while even MY Govt. don't allow his family to visit him. Plus we handed him back to you guys for trial in Philippines soil.

Ain't that enough?

[Protoculture]

I was talking from a broader perspective. in particular development of the
peoples (sabahans)' minds in order to compete with other races, ie: education.
in the UK i think 98% of the govt. sponsored students i see are ethnic malays.
where are the native sabahans and sarawakians? they r sent to some lousy
local institutions.

Well, this would've something to do with academic achievements. Unfortunately, as many native Sabahan (the same case with rural Malays) students in rural areas whose results are only average. To enroll to local Universities, even for Diploma, one must have good qualification. Sabah's State Education Dept. should more to alleviate the problem.

My best advice, looked for MARA for education (IKM, Kolej Polytech MARA, UniKL, UiTM, Giat MARA + MARA sponsorship) & business opportunities for Small Medium Enterprise as with funds. MARA protects native Sabahan Bumiputra, especially in Sabah's state itself.

But where can rights/autonomy in 'our own state' lead us in the future?
Without education/brains this 'autonomy' means nothing.
Yes, we also have a local parliament,
with a little bit of brilliance, magic and guile by federal govt,
we now have a 'disproportionate' power in our local parliament given
to the ethnic malay minorities.
i might be lying when i say disproportionate cos:
every muslim bumiputra are now considered 'malay'.

Ahhh, you're in bit of error there, mate. UMNO (the ruling party of BN coalition that administered Malaysia) has broadened its term of Malay to include non-Muslim Sabahan natives as Malays too. I was a bit surprised to know that nearly half of UMNO members in Sabah are non-Muslims, mainly from Kadazandusun, Rungus, Murut, Sea Bajau, Visaya & Sino-Kadazan. Given that UMNO is UNITED MALAY NATIONAL ORGANISATION representing Malay power in Msia, seems to me, those non-Muslim & non-Malay Sabahasn UMNO members is considered Malay too, even if its worked only for political reasons.

My best advice, cherished your state's autonomy. Your forefathers demanded that rights before joining Malaysian Federation. It has served to keep the rights of native Sabahan since Independence.

[Protoculture]

I think the Philippine government must concentrate on the Spratleys dispute which is also of great concern.

On that note, MY should do the same too. The problem is, Big Red China is towering over Spratlys claims.

The only solution, joint-venture development of the isles.

[Protoculture]

The big question is "Why is Malaysia still paying rent to the Sultan of Sulu?" meaning that there is evidence that Sabah is not Malaysia's but it belongs to the Sultanate of Sulu.

Nahhh, its trivial issue.

Sultanate of Sulu ceased to be an institution a long time ago.

I'll back the Sabahans right to remain with Malaysia.

[martin_nuke]

Malaysia was the staging ground for two abduction cases by the Abu Sayaaf terrorist group in the past two years, but was not a focus of attention for either domestic or international terrorism investigations. In a recent report, however, FBI officials stated that Malaysia was in fact a “primary operational launch pad for the Sept. 11 attacks.” While Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad strongly criticized the report, he also admitted that police have identified about 50 Malaysians with al Qaeda connections.

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/sea.cfm

What im afraid of that one day there will be an Islamic State or what you call Jihad Archipelago that will incorporate Indonesia, Malaysia and Southern Philippines as one Islamic State and Sabah will be included. Sultanates will be disolved and it will be a cruel Islamic Government.

This post has been edited by martin_nuke: Jan 18 2006, 12:33 AM

[The Red Baron]

Malaysia was the staging ground for two abduction cases by the Abu Sayaaf terrorist group in the past two years, but was not a focus of attention for either domestic or international terrorism investigations.  In a recent report, however, FBI officials stated that Malaysia was in fact a “primary operational launch pad for the Sept. 11 attacks.” While Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad strongly criticized the report, he also admitted that police have identified about 50 Malaysians with al Qaeda connections.

http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/sea.cfm

What im afraid of that one day there will be an Islamic State or what you call Jihad Archipelago that will incorporate Indonesia, Malaysia and Southern Philippines as one Islamic State and Sabah will be included. Sultanates will be disolved and it will be a cruel Islamic Government.

lol...
(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) 2

[Datu Mandub]

So what? Actually, majority of Sabahans, especially native Kadazandusun & Rungus plus Murut-Dyak tribes are native only to Sabah, not Sulu. Other ethnicities may have historical lienage with Sulu, but that's it. Ain't gonna do a jack to change Sabahans minds from becoming Filipino.
What facts? Where does it documented? From what we Malaysians know, majority of Jemaah Islamiyyah terrorists got basic trainings from South Filipino.

I assume you know why the mountain is called Kota Kinabalu......the Bornean wives really weep when the Tausug warriors nearly wipe all their males. In Kudat district and Sandakan the majority can speak Tausug. Take note I am refering to the population here only within the Dominions of the former Sultanate of Sulu as declared on the Lease of Agreement in 1879, from the boundaries of river Kimanis on the west and River Atas on the east.

Anyway, most of the heirs themselves are not interested in pushing the claim for North Borneo. I was telling them a few years ago of the possibilities that if they become Malaysians their title of nobility will be officially recognize by the government, being Royalty in North Borneo they could gain some priveleges which they could not get being a Filipino, they can have their own Istanah (Palace) and a new Sultan for North Borneo can be chosen among the legitimate heirs to act as symbolic leader (without political power)