Philippine Claim To Sabah, North Borneo, Sultanate of Sulu is rightful owner Options

[Datu Mandub]

On that note, MY should do the same too. The problem is, Big Red China is towering over Spratlys claims.

The only solution, joint-venture development of the isles.

Joint exploration among the claimants is now on going as we speak....so far Puerto Princessa is their port of call.

[Datu Mandub]

The big question is "Why is Malaysia still paying rent to the Sultan of Sulu?" meaning that there is evidence that Sabah is not Malaysia's but it belongs to the Sultanate of Sulu.

They are paying because of the Session Court of North Borneo decision in December 18, 1939 filed by Dayang Dayang Hdji Piandao (Daughter of Sultan Badaruddin II). The last check was payment for the year 2004 dated October 5, 2005 amounting to PHP 78,212.62 (the amount is an insult)

This money is distributed to the administrator of the original 9 heirs of the Sultan of Sulu, the descendants of Sultan Jamalul A'lam among his three wives.

[pancaindera]

Well, this would've something to do with academic achievements. Unfortunately, as many native Sabahan (the same case with rural Malays) students in rural areas whose results are only average. To enroll to local Universities, even for Diploma, one must have good qualification. Sabah's State Education Dept. should more to alleviate the problem.

are implying that we sabahans are stupid?
kidding. ok maybe u r right. (not that we are stupid, that our result is below par)
i still cannot fully agree with u.

My best advice, looked for MARA for education (IKM, Kolej Polytech MARA, UniKL, UiTM, Giat MARA + MARA sponsorship) & business opportunities for Small Medium Enterprise as with funds. MARA protects native Sabahan Bumiputra, especially in Sabah's state itself.

will look into this though.

Ahhh, you're in bit of error there, mate. UMNO (the ruling party of BN coalition that administered Malaysia) has broadened its term of Malay to include non-Muslim Sabahan natives as Malays too. I was a bit surprised to know that nearly half of UMNO members in Sabah are non-Muslims, mainly from Kadazandusun, Rungus, Murut, Sea Bajau, Visaya & Sino-Kadazan. Given that UMNO is UNITED MALAY NATIONAL ORGANISATION representing Malay power in Msia, seems to me, those non-Muslim & non-Malay Sabahasn UMNO members is considered Malay too, even if its worked only for political reasons.

My best advice, cherished your state's autonomy. Your forefathers demanded that rights before joining Malaysian Federation. It has served to keep the rights of native Sabahan since Independence.

yes, of course they have to widen the term Malay in order to rule sabah peacefully
most of motives of non-muslims BP for joining UMNO have to be questioned tho'.
IMHO they are guided by either short-term or long-term benefits
offered by UMNO. this is a clever but dirty political tactic employed
by UMNO, which also i think has become a common feature of
sabah politics, perhaps also malaysian politics.
from what i know UMNO Sabah is a mere extension of UMNO.
so they act mostly under direct order from federal govt.
i just cant accept there to be any autonomy under umno.
Even if UMNO genuinely wishes to consider non-muslim sabahans as malays
this seems to me more like an attempt to hijack our identity.

I appreciate your advice. but i beg to differ with this issue.
(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[pancaindera]

I assume you know why the mountain is called Kota Kinabalu......the Bornean wives really weep when the Tausug warriors nearly wipe all their males. In Kudat district and Sandakan the majority can speak Tausug. Take note I am refering to the population here only within the Dominions of the former Sultanate of Sulu as declared on the Lease of Agreement in 1879, from the boundaries of river Kimanis on the west and River Atas on the east.

Anyway, most of the heirs themselves are not interested in pushing the claim for North Borneo. I was telling them a few years ago of the possibilities that if they become Malaysians their title of nobility will be officially recognize by the government, being Royalty in North Borneo they could gain some priveleges which they could not get being a Filipino, they can have their own Istanah (Palace) and a new Sultan for North Borneo can be chosen among the legitimate heirs to act as symbolic leader (without political power)

Kota Kinabalu is the name of the city, capital of sabah.
the name of the mountain is Gunung Kinabalu.
from what i know, these tausug (or whatever clan)speaking ppl in sabah
are new/recent immigrants from philippines. not since the 19th century.
if they had been here since then, im quite sure they would be
malaysians already.
Their title will not be recognised
and they will not be given any Istanah.
come on. stop dreaming. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

[Datu Mandub]

Kota Kinabalu is the name of the city, capital of sabah.
the name of the mountain is Gunung Kinabalu.
from what i know, these tausug (or whatever clan)speaking ppl in sabah
are new/recent immigrants from philippines. not since the 19th century.
if they had been here since then, im quite sure they would be
malaysians already.
Their title will not be recognised
and they will not be given any Istanah.
come on. stop dreaming. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

I am implying the ROOTS of their ancestry

Why do you say their title will not be recognized, are you the government ?
I hold legal documents that they were addressed by your court, ambassadors and ministers as Sultan, Rajamuda, Dayang Dayang, Datu, Sittih....etc etc.... I see Malaysian politicians come and go in Mindanao

You don't have first hand knowledge I assume

[pancaindera]

I am implying the ROOTS of their ancestry

Why do you say their title will not be recognized, are you the government ?
I hold legal documents that they were addressed by your court, ambassadors and ministers as Sultan, Rajamuda, Dayang Dayang, Datu, Sittih....etc etc.... I see Malaysian politicians come and go in Mindanao

You don't have first hand knowledge I assume

there was once an issue in malaysia whether the title 'Datu',
normally claimed by filipinos to be awarded by Sultan of Sulu or Mindanao,
would be recognized here in malaysia and the government said No.
to recognize such award/title would be like admitting
the sovereignty of such sultanate.
i thought the Philippine govt also dont recognize such award?
in malaysia we have the title 'Datuk' and this is a federal title
awarded by our Yang di-Pertuan Agong. this of course is recognized
and is distinct from your 'datu'.

This post has been edited by pancaindera: Jan 19 2006, 06:48 AM

[Ek-ek]

As far as everyone in Indonesia and the Philippines is concern Malaysia is a land grabber

[RL33]

As far as everyone in Indonesia  and the Philippines is concern Malaysia is a land grabber

With the help of the commonwealth of course (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) ... the malaysians can thank the british for this one.

[poknat]

FAQs on the ICJ Decision.




1. What is the nature of the case ?

It is a request for intervention on the part of the Philippines in the case between Malaysia and Indonesia regarding sovereignty over the islands of Sipadan and Ligitan. The Philippines requested to intervene in this case under Article 62 of the statute of the International Court of Justice because it is of the view that the decision of the ICJ in that case or its reasoning involved in that decision will adversely affect the legal interest of the Philippines as regards the interpretation and application of certain treaties and agreements which it relies on in its claim over Sabah.

2. Since the ICJ’s decision does not allow the Philippines to intervene, how does this decision affect the Pi claim over Sabah?

The ICJ decision does not affect in any way the merits of the Philippine claim to Sabah. The Philippines requested intervention in the case as a non-party. In other words, the Philippines, in seeking to intervene, did not intend to become a party to the case: between Malaysia and Indonesia. Its purpose is a limited one, namely, to have the opportunity to explain and show to the ICJ that its claim to Sabah may be adversely affected by the Court's decision or by its reasoning in arriving at that decision if the Philippines would not be given the opportunity to be
heard in the case between Malaysia and Indonesia .

3. Did the ICJ accept same points presented by the Philippines in the oral arguments?

Yes. As against the arguments advanced by Malaysia and Indonesia, the ICJ ruled:

(1) That the Philippine application to intervene still was filed on time;

(2) That despite the fact that the Philippine application did not contain a full list of documents in support of its claim, still the ICJ concluded that this did not constitute a formal defect; and.

(3) That the absence of jurisdictional link between the Philippines and the Parties to the main case (Malaysia and Indonesia) is not a ground
for disqualifying the Philippines from intervention. The ICJ recognized that the Philippines sought to intervene as a non-party and therefore does not require such jurisdictional link.

Above all, the ICJ accepted the hypothesis of the Philippines that to establish interest of a legal native, such an interest does not only
pertain to the operative decision of the ICJ but to the method of reasoning in arriving at that decision.

4. On what ground did the ICJ disallow the intervention by the Philippines?

On the ground that failed to show with “sufficient clarity” or “particular clarity” in what way will the interest of legal nature on the part of the Philippines would be affected by the decision and reasoning of the ICJ as regards the treaties and other agreements which the Philippines relies on in its claim to Sabah.

We are critical of this reasoning because it implies that the Court, knowing that the parties (Malaysia and Indonesia) refused to give the Philippines copies of their pleadings, would now require the Philippines to show in advance the full basis of their claims in terms of applicable treaties and agreements.

The Philippines is of the position that this requirement of the Court could have been met by the Philippines in the principal case had it been allowed to intervene and therefore would have had the benefit of the pleadings of Malaysia and Indonesia.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRESS RELEASE



International Court Denies Philippine Intervention, But Assures RP on Sabah

When Indonesia and Malaysia brought their territorial dispute over Sipadan and Ligatan islands to the International Court of Justice in 1988, Philippine officials were concerned about the implications of that dispute on the Philippine Sabah claim. It was suspected that the Philippine sovereignty to claim Sabah could be prejudiced by the arguments and submissions that would be made by Malaysia and Indonesia to the Court. Ligatan and Sipadan, made famous early last year with the notorious kidnappings of western tourist by the Abu Sayyaf, lie close to the Federal State of North Borneo. Philippine officials through Malaysia may take advantage of its legal dispute to consolidate its hold on Sabah. The fear was an argument from Malaysia which would establish its ownership of Sipadan and Ligatan on the basis of its sovereignty over Sabah.

To protect its interest in Sabah, the Philippine government in March this year, went to the International Court to seek permission to intervene in the on-going dispute between Indonesia and Malaysia. The Philippine legal team, headed by DFA Undersecretary, Merlin M. Magallona, argued the Philippine position last June in the International Court in The Hague.

In its decision dated 23 October 2001, the International Court found that the Philippine claim to Sabah will not be affected by the on-going case between Malaysia and Indonesia. The Court, therefore, declined to grant the Philippine request to intervene.

The International Court, in a landmark decision, explained that the Philippines has a heavy burden of proving the connection between its claim to Sabah, on the one hand, and the competing claims of Indonesia and Malaysia on Sipadan and Ligatan, on the other. And because the Philippines was not given copies of the Malaysian and Indonesian pleadings in the principal case, this burden of proof was even more difficult to discharge. The Court ruled that it was not convinced that the Philippine fear about a possible prejudice to its territorial interest in North Borneo was well established. Citing various international agreements that the Philippines had earlier identified to support its Sabah claim, the Court said that not one of these said agreements, including the famous 1878 lease of Sabah granted by the Sultan of Sulu, was relied upon by Malaysia and Indonesia in their respective arguments to support their competing territorial claims to Sipadan and Ligatan. In answering the major issue posed to the Court, the decision concluded that the Philippine claim to sovereignty in North Borneo “could not be affected by the Court’s reasoning or interpretation of treaties in the case concerning Pulau Ligatan and Pulau Sipadan”. In addition, the Court assured everyone concerned that it “remains cognizant of the positions stated before it by Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines”.

Commenting on the decision, Undersecretary Magallona of the DFA, expressed his relief on the Court’s assurance that the Philippine Claim to Sabah will not be affected in any way by the decision of the Court in the main dispute between Malaysia and Indonesia. “Our main objective was to protect the integrity of our historic title to Sabah. We have achieved that objective even if we were not allowed to intervene. So inspite of appearances, the decision of the International Court is really good news for us.”

Undersecretary Magallona also noted that the heavy burden of proof imposed on the Philippines in order to allow it to intervene established a new rule of international law. “No one knew about the level of proof that was expected to be demonstrated by the Philippines. Not Indonesia. Not Malaysia. Not any country. We believe that establishing a “prima facie” case was sufficient. There was no previously established rule that could have given us guidance on the level of argument and proof needed. But then the Court invoked a new standard that it applied to us ex post facto. This is usually how international jurisprudence develops.”

Undersecretary Magallona also congratulated the Philippine legal team on a job well done. “Each one of the arguments made by the Philippines, and specifically opposed or objected to by Malaysia and Indonesia, was upheld by the Court in our favor. Our arguments on matters of procedure or substance were upheld because they were superior to the counter-arguments of Malaysia and Indonesia. On the critical issue of burden of proof, neither Malaysia nor Indonesia, nor even the Philippines, had any idea about that issue. There were no arguments or counter-arguments on that point.” He concluded, “While we lost the battle, our case has led to a much needed clarification of rules of intervention in the international court, and in that sense we have helped advance the cause of the international rule of law. As a bonus, we have put on record a territorial claim to North Borneo, and the Court has assured us that it will not do anything that will prejudice this historic claim.”

HERE IS THE SITE;
http://www.dfa.gov.ph/archive/speech/usec/faq.htm

[Datu Mandub]

there was once an issue in malaysia whether the title 'Datu',
normally claimed by filipinos to be awarded by Sultan of Sulu or Mindanao,
would be recognized here in malaysia and the government said No.
to recognize such award/title would be like admitting
the sovereignty of such sultanate.
i thought the Philippine govt also dont recognize such award?
in malaysia we have the title 'Datuk' and this is a federal title
awarded by our Yang di-Pertuan Agong. this of course is recognized
and is distinct from your 'datu'.

When ? Sultan who ? the last officially recognized legitimate Sultan died in 1986 leaving a minor Crown Prince, after that pretenders keeps popping up. Perhaps the title came from a fake Sultan. Sulu is an autonomous province as provided by our constitution, meaning, Titles of Nobility/ culture/ religion and claim to ancestral domain are supposed to be under the protection of the law, in Maguindanao/ lanao area there are more than a dozen titular Sultan although they don't have priveleges like in Malaysia.

Datuk is a title aquired by someone during his lifetime for service rendered or meritous deed and is not inheritable.

This post has been edited by Datu Mandub: Jan 20 2006, 03:55 AM

[Kanlungan]

I believe that Sabah is a privately owned land by the family of the Sultan of Sulu. Ergo, it is between the family and Malaysia, not the Philippine Gov't and Malaysian Gov't.

[martin_nuke]

I believe that Sabah is a privately owned land by the family of the Sultan of Sulu. Ergo, it is between the family and Malaysia, not the Philippine Gov't and Malaysian Gov't.

Diba the Sultan of Sulu was the one who asked help from Marcos to claim Sabah and the present Sultan of Sulu is asking help from Gloria Arroyo to claim Sabah therefore since the Sultan of Sulu is a Philippine Citizen and according to the international laws it is between 2 nations the Philippines and Malaysia. I believe that the Sultan cannot claim a land unless it is represented by a nation in the present laws.

[Kanlungan]

Nah. It would be more of a family claim than a national claim. There was a votation some years ago and Malaysia won.

[Protoculture]

What im afraid of that one day there will be an Islamic State or what you call Jihad Archipelago that will incorporate Indonesia, Malaysia and Southern Philippines as one Islamic State and Sabah will be included. Sultanates will be disolved and it will be a cruel Islamic Government.

Highly unlikely.

Never going to happen.

Impossible.

[Protoculture]

are implying that we sabahans are stupid?
kidding. ok maybe u r right. (not that we are stupid, that our result is below par)
i still cannot fully agree with u.
will look into this though.

- The need for Sabahan education is paramount on the state's agenda. Now, Sabah has 2 universities catered mainly to Sabahans with University Malaysia Sabah (UMS) & Universiti Teknologi Mara (UiTM)- Sabah's branch. UMS has decided to increase intakes of local Sabahans starting last year & putting quotas on West Msian intakes.

- UiTM & affliated MARA education institutions all over the country has received additional fundings & increasing their intakes, including Sabah's branches, this year, following to the letter of protecting Bumiputra needs.

yes, of course they have to widen the term Malay in order to rule sabah peacefully
most of motives of non-muslims BP for joining UMNO have to be questioned tho'.
IMHO they are guided by either short-term or long-term benefits
offered by UMNO. this is a clever but dirty political tactic employed
by UMNO, which also i think has become a common feature of
sabah politics, perhaps also malaysian politics.
from what i know UMNO Sabah is a mere extension of UMNO.
so they act mostly under direct order from federal govt.
i just cant accept there to be any autonomy under umno.
Even if UMNO genuinely wishes to consider non-muslim sabahans as malays
this seems to me more like an attempt to hijack our identity.

- I understand your grievance. But then again, what is the alternative except BN & UMNO, pray tell? For sure, it ain't gonna be Philippines Govt.

I appreciate your advice. but i beg to differ with this issue.
(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

- We can always agree to disagree, mate. That's what democracy is all about. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Protoculture]

I am implying the ROOTS of their ancestry

Why do you say their title will not be recognized, are you the government ?
I hold legal documents that they were addressed by your court, ambassadors and ministers as Sultan, Rajamuda, Dayang Dayang, Datu, Sittih....etc etc.... I see Malaysian politicians come and go in Mindanao

You don't have first hand knowledge I assume

The MY politicians go there for possible economic opportunities for MY corporates, but seeing that South Philippines is still unstabil, MY businessmen lose hope.

While we may recognised their title, we may not recognised their claim to take Sabah. As simple as that.

[Protoculture]

I believe that Sabah is a privately owned land by the family of the Sultan of Sulu. Ergo, it is between the family and Malaysia, not the Philippine Gov't and Malaysian Gov't.

Given that the Sultanate of Sulu is considered a non-existing entity nowadays, the fate of Sabah will be decided not by ICJ, but ultimately referendum of Sabahans ... whose will of course to remain Malaysian.

[Datu Mandub]

Given that the Sultanate of Sulu is considered a non-existing entity nowadays, the fate of Sabah will be decided not by ICJ, but ultimately referendum of Sabahans ... whose will of course to remain Malaysian.

This issue has been settled.....Sabahans wants to be Malaysians says the plebicite. Now, I proposed an idea to some of the heirs what if they'll become Malaysian and settle in Sabah for good, I got a big smile. Malaysia will of course compensate the family if the claim will be drop. There has been offers years ago.

[Datu Mandub]

The MY politicians go there for possible economic opportunities for MY corporates, but seeing that South Philippines is still unstabil, MY businessmen lose hope.

While we may recognised their title, we may not recognised their claim to take Sabah. As simple as that.

Your Datuks visit our Datus, that is the heirs and they have no political power. Prime Minister Badawi even invite them to Kuala Lumpur......communication between your government and the heirs was not cut off, your embassy here keeps track of them. The claim is recognized by propreity and hereditary but the sovereignty remains to Malaysia.

[Datu Mandub]

Diba the Sultan of Sulu was the one who asked help from Marcos to claim Sabah and the present Sultan of Sulu is asking help from Gloria Arroyo to claim Sabah therefore since the Sultan of Sulu is a Philippine Citizen and according to the international laws it is between 2 nations the Philippines and Malaysia. I believe that the Sultan cannot claim a land unless it is represented by a nation in the present laws.

There is no present Sultan of Sulu, Pres. Gloria Arroyo is supporting a pretender to the throne who is not even an administrator of the Estates of an heir. Although he is a descendant of the heir he belongs to a younger branch of the Royal family, and the law of Primogeniture states that the title shall only be pass to the eldest male.

As I have said, provisions in the 1962 Philippine North Borneo claim that if the Philippines fails to recover North Borneo in all peaceful means the Sultan shall be free to pursue the claim whatever manner he wishes. Now it's been 44 years.....