The disappearance of the Manchurian tradition Options

[cmn stlyng]

manchu had no capacity to defeat the Mings, remember it was the traitor Wu San Gui who opened up the gate in the north that invited in the Manchus, Wu was later named the "emperor" of the China's southwest by the manchus. Manchus nowadays could careless if they're Mans or Hans, most of them don't even see the difference.

[HannaraDumbass]

manchu had no capacity to defeat the Mings, remember it was the traitor Wu San Gui who opened up the gate in the north that invited in the Manchus, Wu was later named the "emperor" of the China's southwest by the manchus. Manchus nowadays could careless if they're Mans or Hans, most of them don't even see the difference.

A lot of self-proclaimed Manchus nowadays are actually the descents of Qiren. That's why they don't know much about Manchus. Because they were not actual Manchus to begin with. Most of actual Manchu descents know more or less about their heritage. We just dont talk about it in public or think it's something require special attention. That's Specially ture with Manchu descents who were part of upper-three-bannermen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

[Suren911]

Don't worry bro. Manchu heritage is alive and well. We don't go out our way to tell everybody our background doesn't mean we lost our heritage. Actually there are active Manchu communities in China and Taiwan. If you are interested in your Manchu heritage you can go check these websites.

中华民国满族协会(Taiwan's Manchus Foundation)
http://www.manchusoc.org.tw/

吉祥满族(One of China's Biggest Manchus website)
http://www.qiren.cn/

BTW, don't confuse the idea of Qiren(旗人) and Manchus(满人). People like to use these two terms interchangablly. Even mainland Chinese govt misuses the terms Qiren and Manchu. But they are actually quite different. There are a lot of Qiren out there in China. You could be a Qiren. But it does not necessarily mean you are a Manchu. Qiren was derived from the Eight Banner System which includes Manchu-Eight-Banners, Mongol-Eight-Banners, and Han-Eight-Banners. Simply put, Qiren is bonded by Eight-Banner-System. But Manchu is bonded by both Eight-Banner-System and Blood.

So your aunt could be a Qiren, even if her ethinicity is Han. You mentioned your aunt belongs to "Zheng Lan Qi"(Blue Banner). Does she know her original manchu surname and ancestery resident? She could be a descent of Blue Banner of Han-Eight-Banners got raised up (抬旗)to Blue Banner of Manchu-Eight-Banner. That happened a lot within Lower Five Banner(下五旗) which includes 镶白(border white)、正红(red)、镶红(border red)、正蓝(blue)、镶蓝(border blue) in mid Qing dynasty. Raising up rarely happened within upper three banners (上三旗). Upper three banners includes 正白(white)、正黄(yellow)、镶黄(border yellow). And I doubt descents of Manchu upper three bannermen do not know single bit of thier heritage. That just doesn't happen. We are out there alive and well. And we won't let our heritage being stolen by Koreans. (South Koreans to be specific.)

Wow thanx for the info Hannara (I'm a girl btw haha). She does have an original Manchu name (I'll ask her about it) and I'm more than sure that she's not of Han heritage. She actually looks quite different from Han Chinese too, although Manchu people are said to look not too different from Han Chinese. Her dad looks exactly like Nuerhaci Aisin Gioro in that painting. She doesn't really like to talk about it because she was taught when she was little that she better keep it quiet or she can get into trouble so they never mentioned anything about their Manchurian heritage. I think they had some vases passed down in the family too. Her uncle knows a whole lot more. If I find out more I'll ask you! It's good to see someone who cares about his heritage.

NOTE TO EVERYONE:
Please stop it with the insult of Mongolian and Manchurian. I don't want this kind of prejudice in my thread. Please respect each other and history.

This post has been edited by Suren911: Aug 14 2006, 11:12 PM

[HannaraDumbass]

Wow thanx for the info Hannara (I'm a girl btw haha). She does have an original Manchu name (I'll ask her about it) and I'm more than sure that she's not of Han heritage. She actually looks quite different from Han Chinese too, although Manchu people are said to look not too different from Han Chinese. Her dad looks exactly like Nuerhaci Aisin Gioro in that painting. She doesn't really like to talk about it because she was taught when she was little that she better keep it quiet or she can get into trouble so they never mentioned anything about their Manchurian heritage. I think they had some vases passed down in the family too. Her uncle knows a whole lot more. If I find out more I'll ask you! It's good to see someone who cares about his heritage.

NOTE TO EVERYONE:
Please stop it with the insult of Mongolian and Manchurian. I don't want this kind of prejudice in my thread. Please respect each other and history.

I don't like those insults either. But you have to remember we are Chinese first. Our ethinicity is just one part of our heritage.

[kaiwen]

This passage sounds like some crap made by a Corean nationalist.

i don't know where it came from. i didn't even know manchus had anything to do with koreans in the first place...i guess theres alot to learn.

[HannaraDumbass]

i don't know where it came from. i didn't even know manchus had anything to do with koreans in the first place...i guess theres alot to learn.

hell no we Manchus have nothing to do with South Koreans. It's South Korean nationalists' wet dream to call us cousins which is fcuking stupid.

[Suren911]

^Lol, I've yet to meet a Korean who, when found out that I was half Mongolian and started saying the ancestors of Koreans are Mongols and blah blah. Or say there should be an independent movement and slice off Northeast China and stick it onto the Korean map. It's silly, really.

But yeah our nationality comes first and that is no doubt. I'm Han, Mongol, and Korean but when people ask, I say I'm Chinese first because that is what I am.

[kaiwen]

hell no we Manchus have nothing to do with South Koreans. It's South Korean nationalists' wet dream to call us cousins which is fcuking stupid.

lol , well they seem to have different views than you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

[Titanium]

Manchus contributed so much of forming present size of PRC. Otherwise China would be as small as Ming Dynasty constantly harassed by Manchus, Mongols and Tibetans.

Manchus really made mistake invading Ming China and let themsleves assimilated. Sorry for them

Not really, the majority of the conquests were inevitably done by Chinese soldiers and advisors since the Manchus were a very small minority compared to the large Han population.

[MasterZen]

lol , well they seem to have different views than you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

Some Korean nationalists even go as far as claiming Sumerian civilization. I really fail to see the logic in linking or relating yourself to other groups and then taking credit for their accomplishments. It's like saying since British and Germans share linguistic and genetic relations, therefore Shakespeare was a German or that Leonardo Da Vinci was actually a Mexican due to the Italian relationship to Latin Americans. If they are going to claim the Qing or the Manchus, they might as well claim the Mongols, Mughal India, Samarkand, Tamerlane, and even the Ottoman and Seljuk Turks as theirs because afterall these states were all founded by Altaic speaking nomads. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against Koreans because I know not all of them are this crazy, but I'm simply attacking the extremist logic I've seen so far.

This post has been edited by MasterZen: Aug 15 2006, 02:49 AM

[Flowerseed]

It seems to me that some people needs more history lessons, manchurians didnt destroy Ming empire, the Ming government was already overthrown by rebels before manchurians begin their conquest, if its not the traitor general wu they wouldnt even be able to cross the shanhaiguan castle and even then they have only conquered a china which is weakened by natural and human desasters. (and without a central government)

Emperor ChongZhen of the Ming dynasty was in my opinion one of the most tragic rulers in the chinese history, although he has his weakness he has really tried to save his dynasty,but it was too late since there were already many generations of decaying before he come to power, at the end he choose to commit suicide shortly before rebels conquered the imperial capital. (he could also flee to the south or call in troops from the manchurians border but didnt)

[product_ako]

To start the manchu bashing. Just to let people know Chinese Han are equal haters of all 56 ethnic groups.

- Prior to Sinafication, the Manchus were really Korean.

- Why did Manchus force Han men to wear queue? Because of their small penis that was the only way they could hold on during sex.

- Why did the Manchu learn Mandarin? Because no one understands Korean.

[ChugokuOtaku]

To start the manchu bashing. Just to let people know Chinese Han are equal haters of all 56 ethnic groups.

- Prior to Sinafication, the Manchus were really Korean.

- Why did Manchus force Han men to wear queue? Because of their small penis that was the only way they could hold on during sex.

- Why did the Manchu learn Mandarin? Because no one understands Korean.

wow...wow...wow... hold on a sec there...

Manchu forced Han men to wear queues? it's Manchu themselves who wore queues to begin with! If anything... they were the ones with small penises dude!

[Suren911]

Product_ako, I clearly said no hateful words. Do NOT bash on ANYONE in this thread.

If you feel the need to say someone has a small penis, then you probably have a problem. The big man overlooks all that are smaller than him and if you can't then that, I think, says something about you. Now no more penis talk. Get back on topic and stay OBJECTIVE.

There's absolutely no proof that Manchus and Koreans are related. It anything, the Manchus occupied a part of the Goguryeo territory but they WERE NOT ETHNIC KOREANS AND DID NOT SPEAK THE KOREAN LANGUAGE. THEY SPOKE MANCHURIAN. Just because the Mongols occupied Chinese territory doesn't mean they were Han Chinese. Same idea. This is such a case of small man syndrome.

[product_ako]

Don't get me started on the Mongols.... those pony abusers.

The Manchu traded in their barbarian status by trying to learn Chinese. Thank goodness they went through Sinafication or they be eating puppies like those Koreans, or worst yet ponies like those Mongols.

The Manchu screwed up China for over 200 years. It took the Hans needed another 100 years to fix everything.

I saw the movie "The Last Emperor," I know the truth, if that white English teacher didn't save that Manchu kid on the roof, we could have ended the dynasty sooner. Everyone knows white English teacher are masters of "light-weight" kungfu.

The new product_ako way of the Chinese....hate all 56 ethnic groups equally and objectively.

[kaiwen]

Product_ako, I clearly said no hateful words. Do NOT bash on ANYONE in this thread.

If you feel the need to say someone has a small penis, then you probably have a problem. The big man overlooks all that are smaller than him and if you can't then that, I think, says something about you. Now no more penis talk. Get back on topic and stay OBJECTIVE.

There's absolutely no proof that Manchus and Koreans are related. It anything, the Manchus occupied a part of the Goguryeo territory but they WERE NOT ETHNIC KOREANS AND DID NOT SPEAK THE KOREAN LANGUAGE. THEY SPOKE MANCHURIAN. Just because the Mongols occupied Chinese territory doesn't mean they were Han Chinese. Same idea. This is such a case of small man syndrome.

According to P. Huang the prehistoric ancestors of the Manchu were at least the peoples of the Yellow River valley, the Mongolian steppes, the Pacific coast and the taiga area around Lake Baikal. The first ancestors of the Manchu were the Sushen a people who lived during the 2nd and 1st millennia BC.

Sushen (Chinese: 肅愼; pinyin: sùshèn) was an ancient ethnic group outside China.

The name of Sushen appeared as early as the 6th century BC in Chinese documents. They are almost unknown with the exception of the fact that they lived to the north of China and used wooden bows and crossbows. Ancient Chinese believed that the Sushen paid arrows as tribute to an ideal Chinese ruler. In other words, an arrival of Sushen delegates was an auspicious sign of the virtuous ruler for the Chinese.

From the 3rd century to the 6th century, the name Sushen was used as an alias for the Yilou (挹婁; yìlóu), who were in eastern Manchuria. However, the connection between the Yilou and ancient Sushen is unclear. Some historians think that Chinese, who heard the Yilou paid arrows as tributes, linked the two groups based on the knowledge of ancient documents. They paid tribute several times and pleased rulers of Northern China. The Yilou disappeared in documents in the 6th century. The Mohe rose into power there instead.

Some believe that the Mishihase are Sushen people.

The Mishihase (粛填) were a people of ancient Japan, believed to have lived on the northern portion of the shore of the Sea of Japan.

They are believed to have spoken a Tungusic language.

The name Sushen, which is rendered 肅愼 but pronounced Mishihase or Ashihase, can also be found in Japanese documents. According to Nihon shoki, the Mishihase first arrived to Sado province during the reign of Emperor Kimmei. In 660, Japanese General Abe no Hirafu defeated the Mishihase in Hokkaido at the request of the Ezo. Some historians consider that the Mishihase were the same with the Sushen in Chinese records, and others think that Japanese named the indigenous people in the northeast based on the knowledge of Chinese documents, just as the Chinese did during the Three Kingdoms Period.

hahahha even japanese can be linked to manchus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) , man i don't even know anymore

[HannaraDumbass]

To start the manchu bashing. Just to let people know Chinese Han are equal haters of all 56 ethnic groups.

- Prior to Sinafication, the Manchus were really Korean.

- Why did Manchus force Han men to wear queue? Because of their small penis that was the only way they could hold on during sex.

- Why did the Manchu learn Mandarin? Because no one understands Korean.

You are a dumbass. Manchus were not Koreans. Manchus's customes, languages, history, and everything is very different from Koreans who lived on the Southern tips of present day South Korea. Plus Korean language is completely different from Manchurian language. Manchurian language belongs to Toungus lingustic subgroup. Korean language is lingustically isolated. (the root of that language is still a mystery.)

Plus the problem China facing during late Qing dynasty was not entirely Manchus' fault. The whole China was sick. It is easy to blame Manchus. But do Han Chinese really do any better after Manchu dynasty collapses? No. You got bunch of Han Chinese warlords tried to divide China and fcuk each other up. Then you got KMT and Communists fcuked each other up. Then you got communists fcuked other communists.

Product_ako, I clearly said no hateful words. Do NOT bash on ANYONE in this thread.

If you feel the need to say someone has a small penis, then you probably have a problem. The big man overlooks all that are smaller than him and if you can't then that, I think, says something about you. Now no more penis talk. Get back on topic and stay OBJECTIVE.

There's absolutely no proof that Manchus and Koreans are related. It anything, the Manchus occupied a part of the Goguryeo territory but they WERE NOT ETHNIC KOREANS AND DID NOT SPEAK THE KOREAN LANGUAGE. THEY SPOKE MANCHURIAN. Just because the Mongols occupied Chinese territory doesn't mean they were Han Chinese. Same idea. This is such a case of small man syndrome.

I can't agree you here. WHat do you mean Manchus occupied Goguryo land? Goguryo was not ethnic korean to being with.

This post has been edited by HannaraDumbass: Aug 15 2006, 03:09 PM

[northwestern_stu...]

hell no we Manchus have nothing to do with South Koreans. It's South Korean nationalists' wet dream to call us cousins which is fcuking stupid.

this part really cracks me up. so machurians really do have a beef with koreans.

[kaiwen]

Koreans regard Balhae as a Korean state, particular from the Joseon Dynasty onwards. The 18th century, during the Joseon Dynasty, was a period in which Korean scholars began a renewed interest in Balhae. The Qing and Joseon dynasties had negotiated and demarcated the Sino-Korean border along the Yalu and Tumen rivers in 1712, and Jang Ji-yeon (1762–1836), journalist, writer of nationalist tracts, and organizer of nationalist societies, published numerous articles arguing that had the Joseon officials considered Balhae part of their territory, they would not be as eager to "give up" lands north of the rivers. Yu Deuk-gong in his eighteenth-century work Parhaego (An investigation of Balhae) argued that Balhae should be included as part of Korean history, and that doing so would justify territorial claims on Manchuria. Korean historian Sin Chae-ho, writing about Gando in the early twentieth century, bemoaned that for centuries, Korean people in their “hearts and eyes considered only the land south of the Yalu as their home” and that “half of our ancestor Tan’gun’s ancient lands have been lost for over nine hundred years.” Sin also criticized Kim Busik, author of the Samguk Sagi, for excluding Balhae from his historical work and claiming that Silla had achieved unification of Korea.[3] Inspired by ideas of Social Darwinism, Sin wrote:

How intimate is the connection between Korea and Manchuria? When the Korean race obtains Manchuria, the Korean race is strong and prosperous. When another race obtains Manchuria, the Korean race is inferior and recedes. Moreever, when in the possession of another race, if that race is the northern race, then Korea enters that northern race's sphere of power. If an eastern race obtains Manchuria, then Korea enters that race's sphere of power. Alas! This is an iron rule that has not changed for four thousand years.[4]

Neither Silla nor the later Goryeo wrote an official history for Balhae, and some modern scholars argue that had they done so, Koreans might have had a stronger claim to Balhae's history and territory. [5]

In modern North and South Korea, Balhae is regarded as a Korean state and is positioned in the "North-South Period" (with Silla) today, although such a view has had proponents in the past. They emphasize its connection with Goguryeo and minimize that with the Mohe. While South Korean historians think the ethnicity ruling class was of Goguryeo and the commoners were mixed, including Mohe, North Korean historians think Balhae ethnography was mostly Goguryeo. Koreans believe the founder Dae Joyeong was of Goguryeo stock. The Book of Tang says that Dae Joyeong was of a "changed Goguryeo kind" (高麗別種),[6] and the New Book of Tang states that he is "from the Sumo Mohe of the former realm of Goguryeo."

koreans wanted to claim manchuria LOL

[HannaraDumbass]

hahahha even japanese can be linked to manchus (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) , man i don't even know anymore

It's not surprising becuase both Japanese nationalists and Korean nationalists wanted and still want Manchuria land. To establish kinship with Manchus is the easiest way to claim Manchuria as part of thier own.

(IMG:http://heima.heima.com/user/3/58787/Doc/5_44.jpeg)

This post has been edited by HannaraDumbass: Aug 15 2006, 03:31 PM