English and communications skills, Improvements much needed!!! Options

[SoCal]

Before it gets, unnecessarily, carried away again, like quite a few other threads ...

We just have to slow down a little bit here. Bro havythoai was honestly wanting help, from all bros here, to improve his English skills ("If there is any mistake about English that I made. Please report to me."). Bro Chancer~ was just trying to help. I don't think it is more complicated than that.

I suggest maybe we should create a pinned thread "Let's Learn English", just like what we have now "Let's Learn Vietnamese". My crazy idea is that, hopefully bros/sis who are strong in English can help our Vietnamese bros/sis in Vietnam who are eager to improve their English skills. Let's help each other and see if we all, Vietnamese and overseas Vietnamese, can work and build bridges together as a team

With that being said, what do you all think of my crazy idea?

Let's learn English sounds good. Let's put "Let's learn English" thread up.

[Heavenandearth]

No I am the same. I am been in the West for a very long time. Just more careful as I have said to nitpickers that people like me you think I don't know the basic grammar? But I am just making a point for these nitpickers not you, bro.

[TINMAN]

Sadly, not "professors" -- backpackers and high school drop-outs in their native countries generally, although probably not all.

Hopefully not a John Mark Karr character in the Ramsey murder case.

[Johannjs]

Hopefully not a John Mark Karr character in the Ramsey murder case.

Again, generally the lonesome kind, hanging around here and there, travelling from one to another of the ASEAN countries, looking for luck always elsewhere... They are native speakers, and that's what the schools want, to be assistant teachers in ESL (English as a second language) classes. One can't say their English is not good, but they are not the least trained to be teachers. You can judge from their chat in this forum here

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewforum.php?f=14

[LaniKai]

You content is better, but carefully compare what you typed, to what is written below.

English is really a big matter of Vietnamese students. The English ability of Vietnamese student is very weak (I included), that's why I'm here to depend on everybody for helping me improve English through correcting my posts in here
Hope I am not to critical. Comparison the paragraphs below.

You wrote:
yeah, I'm living in VN. I witnessed many things of the english skills of vietnamese students that made me feel really ashamed. That's why none of vietnamese universities is recognized for their international programs, no country in the world accepts the qualifications and credentials of vietnamese universities. This is really ( bored ?) disappointed and sad .

I wrote:
Yes, I live in VN. I have witnessed the lack of English skills of Vietnamese students that made me feel very ashamed. That's why none of Vietnamese universities is recognized for theirinternational programs, no country in the world accepts the qualifications of Vietnamese universities. (You said the same thing twice in the previous sentence) This is really bad.

English is really a serious matter for Vietnamese students. The English ability of Vietnamese student s are very weak (I included), that's why I'm here to depend on everybody for helping me improve my English through correcting my posts in here
Hope I am not to critical. Comparison the paragraphs below.

Chancer~ was in a hurry to correct :
If there is any mistake in my English
If there is any mistake[ about ] in the English I wrote [ made ]
Please report to ? inform me

[TINMAN]

Again, generally the lonesome kind, hanging around here and there, travelling from one to another of the ASEAN countries, looking for luck always elsewhere... They are native speakers, and that's what the schools want, to be assistant teachers in ESL (English as a second language) classes. One can't say their English is not good, but they are not the least trained to be teachers. You can judge from their chat in this forum here

http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewforum.php?f=14

Thanks for the link.

I'm surprised that ESL teachers got paid $12/hour. That's not bad at all, considering that there are some IT graduates here in the US who are stuck with data entry positions which only pays $10/hour.

[Johannjs]

Thanks for the link.

I'm surprised that ESL teachers got paid $12/hour. That's not bad at all, considering that there are some IT graduates here in the US who are stuck with data entry positions which only pays $10/hour.

Ha ha, data entry

... is an unqualified secretary's or intern's temporary job!!!!!!

(that has nothing to do with IT engineering or computing)

EDIT.
This kind of occupation can generally (and typically) be outsourced to Indonesia, India, or Vietnam, and will cost only $3/day as of nowadays' tariff.

This post has been edited by Johannjs: Aug 18 2006, 08:02 PM

[blacklight]

Let's learn English sounds good. Let's put "Let's learn English" thread up.

Very good idea. What do we have to do to make it happen? We need a pinned thread.

[Heavenandearth]

((If there is any mistake[ about ] in the English I wrote [ made ]
Please report to ? inform me))

Correction:

If there is any mistake with the English I wrote, please report it to me or please inform me (is fine).

Preferably:

If there is any mistake with my English, (comma) please tell me/ let me know......(more succinct)

((Hope I am not "too" critical. "Comparing" the paragraphs below.
))

This post has been edited by Heavenandearth: Aug 18 2006, 11:12 PM

[Chancer~]

English is really a serious matter for Vietnamese students. The English ability of Vietnamese student s are very weak (I included), that's why I'm here to depend on everybody for helping me improve my English through correcting my posts in here
Hope I am not to critical. Comparison the paragraphs below.

Chancer~ was in a hurry to correct :
If there is any mistake in my English
If there is any mistake[ about ] in the English I wrote [ made ]
Please report to ? inform me

Communicating in another language is difficult. The other day I tried to write a few sentences in Vietnames and I probably insulted, as often one does when learning a new language, the one receiving the communication. Knowing how another accepts communication are a combination of knowing the background of how another receives certain words. In example respond and confront to me mean the same thing but to someone else confront may be to strong a word, even if you thought they should confront and not respond. I would first think that the person who would rather respond and not confront is weak. But the persons thoughts may be softened by feelings by a close friends death or they may have seen how a child responded by a confrontation.

Yes it is complicated. You cannot be sensitive when trying to communicate. You must stay teachable.

Chào cô bé
Hello Young Miss,

Danh từ ngôi danh từ giới từ, viết vào tiếng Việt làm cho người ta hiểu mình
I am attempting to write in your language. So that I might understand you.

làm bài, học bài dạy ai đọc Danh sắp sửa; có ý định trường trung học thu
To do lessons how can I help you? I go to secondary school in fall


Have a good laugh at my attempts to write in Vietnamese.

[Heavenandearth]

((If there is any mistake[ about ] in the English I wrote [ made ]
Please report to ? inform me))

Correction:

If there is any mistake with the English I wrote, please report it to me or please inform me (is fine).

Preferably:

If there is any mistake with my English, (comma) please tell me/ let me know......(more succinct)

((Hope I am not "too" critical. "Comparing" the paragraphs below.
))

Why nitpickers never around when comes to something constructive?

This post has been edited by Heavenandearth: Aug 19 2006, 12:22 AM

[Chancer~]

Why nitpickers never around when come to something constructive?

True

[Johannjs]

Why nitpickers never around when come to something constructive?

Are you calling me?

It's WHEN and not IF (meaning I'm sure and certain I'm still clumsy and make mistake; so it can't be conditional); thus

" My English is not so good, so whenever I make a mistake, please be so kind as to let me know! Thank you! "

[Heavenandearth]

Do you think you are a nitpicker! I agree with when is better; however, if is still acceptable and commonly used.

(Why nitpickers never around when "comes" to something constructive?)

Someone start a thread for people to ask English questions. Or there should be an English forum. Although, you can find English teaching forums on the net. But you only have to watch out for common mistakes.

This post has been edited by Heavenandearth: Aug 19 2006, 12:25 AM

[Johannjs]

Like Kennedy in Berlin, I would say (never mind)

"Ich bin ein nitpicker"!

(Vielleicht bin ich auch ein nitpicker? sondern nicht immer, nicht der ganze Zeit!)

Anyway, I think his/her English is quite OK. What he/she should do is to spend some time reading again a few English grammar books! that would be more useful than chat around with uncertain "teachers" on a forum.

He/she (havythoai) should also start reading a few novels (in English, of course!).

[Chancer~]

Like Kennedy in Berlin, I would say (never mind)

"Ich bin ein nitpicker"!

(Vielleicht bin ich auch ein nitpicker? sondern nicht immer, nicht der ganze Zeit!)

Anyway, I think his/her English is quite OK. What he/she should do is to spend some time reading again a few English grammar books! that would be more useful than chat around with uncertain "teachers" on a forum.

He/she (havythoai) should also start reading a few novels (in English, of course!).

This is the first time I would agree with you. Reading is helpful. However, if you do not know the vernacular, which refers to the native language of a country or locality, in general linguistics, it is used to describe local languages as opposed to linguae francae, official standards or global languages. It is sometimes applied to nonstandard dialects of a global language. The word bird in England written to a person in the U.S. has a variety of meanings.

English studies is an academic discipline that includes the study of literatures written in the English language (including literatures from the U.K., U.S., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, India, South Africa, and the Middle East, among other areas), English linguistics (including English phonetics, phonology, syntax, morphology, semantics, pragmatics, corpus linguistics, and stylistics), and English sociolinguistics (including discourse analysis of written and spoken texts in the English language, history of the English language, and the study of World English’s). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Studies

Pacific Standard Time


This post has been edited by Chancer~: Aug 19 2006, 12:58 AM

[Heavenandearth]

Readings always help. However, if you have specific questions, it is quicker to ask here or at other forums. Sometimes, it is just a matter of different expressions, neither is incorrect. But it is always great to have a second opinion like if you can get someone to read your essays.

This post has been edited by Heavenandearth: Aug 19 2006, 01:19 AM

[Johannjs]

^You forgot to mention speakers' accents!

What he/she wants is colloquial speech, basic English; and make him/herself understood in everyday's conversation. All in all, about 100 to 150 words + correct grammatical short sentence construction. That's enough to travel the world.

The more intelligent learners will then naturally "sense" the rules of morphosyntax (how words are constructed). From the already acquired vocabulary, they will eventually make out new words (which are nearly sure to be in the dictionary). With reading, 100 to 150 words become 5,000 to 10,000 words... and 20 years of practice later, 35,000 potential words...

As to vernacular speeches and idioms, how many places in the world do you think a man/woman will visit in a lifetime? except some common Americanisms, scratch that. Ban all things superficial, and make life simpler and things easier.

With the above logic, anyone can learn to speak (even self-teach) basic English in less than two months....

(BTW, that was how I learnt German in less than 3 weeks before I crossed the border and visited my German friends whom I met in Paris just before that. My newly learnt German was more than correct, from Frankfurt to Berlin, from Stuttgart to the Lake of Konstanz, and in Austria. I spent hours speaking to people I just met, and new words just came, naturally).

The only important thing is to learn your grammar. Read it again and again and again...

I recommend also having a pocket notebook and writing down new words in the beginning.


P.S. Since I registered here on AF two years ago, I'm quite sure I've not used more than 400 words of my potential vocabulary (English only). OK, let's say "less than 500 words"...

Hey, if you analyse G.W. Bush's speeches over the last 6 years, you will find out that he used less than 200 words of English!!! I would say his active + passive vocabulary total less than 1,000 words (English only)

This post has been edited by Johannjs: Aug 19 2006, 03:12 AM

[etalkishere]

We had pretty good discussions and thoughts so far. I agree many points raised. To add to the dicussions...

Yes, reading books/novels is no doubt good, but having interative sessions is even better. That's why people want tutors, right I will have a poll to see if people agree putting up a pinned thread "Let's Learn English" is a good thing to have here.

To me, the most important things when it comes to writing/speaking effective English are: clear and concise. These are viewed as essential bases for a good communication skill. The worst thing that can come to you is, you talk or write at length, and at the end everyone scratches his/her head and is still trying to understand the point you're trying to make

havythoai, here is suggestion to you:

You wrote:

English is really a big matter of vietnamese students. The english ability of vietnamese student is very weak (me included), that's why I'm here to depend on everybody for helping me improve english through correcting my posts in here.

My corrected version:

English is really a big serious matter of for vVietnamese students. The eEnglish ability of vVietnamese students, including myself, is very weak. tThat's the reason why, I'm here to depend on everybody for helping to help me improve my eEnglish through correcting proofreading my posts in here.

[Heavenandearth]

If you want to practice listening, then get books with tapes and practice listening.