Takeshima (or Takdo) Options

[Suzu]

What is the board's thoughts on the island of Takeshima?

Takeshima has always been Japanese. They are a group of islands/rocks in the Sea of Japan. During the ancient Shogunal era, emperors or enemies of the state where exiled to similar islands in the vicinity.

But after World War II, as the South Koreans also mobilized and tried to help the Americans liberate South Korea, they managed to get ahold of Takeshima and all other islands in the vicinity, renaming it Takdo.

Japanese citizens on the island have never been treated nicely, like on the Kuriles, and it has been overpopulated with Koreans.

Takeshima is as Japanese as Honshu. Like the Kuriles, it was occupied during a time of war but never returned after the country became peaceful again. The Koreans always use the fact that the Japanese colonial occupation killed millions of Koreans. I am not saying this is not true, it is very true, but in the modern world, land stolen from Japan should be returned to Japan.

What are your thoughts? Ogumo, you know I'm waiting for your reply. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Suzu: Jun 9 2004, 08:16 AM

[CJK]

Give me a break...and its Tok-do, by the way

It was never Japanese... nobody was ever exiled to those islets, nobody ever lived on them.

Japanese fishermen just used it as a stopping point way back

I guess you consider the islands as Japanese as the southern kuriles...

It was never stolen, it was always a recognized part of Choson.

It was never occupied during any war...it has been occupied by a small korean police force since Park Chung Hee's dictatorship administration.


DELETE!

[CJK]

oops. i meant during Rhee Syngman's administration.

[Suzu]

No.

I never said that it was people were exiled to Takeshima. I said they were exiled to islands in the Sea of Japan, or the vicinity. Read carefully!

Furthermore, Takeshima are rocks, but they are Japanese territory. Unless you're an extreme Korean nationalist, you would not deny that it had been historical territory.They have changed hands a few times, but they were part of Japan.

I will find a website.

[Suzu]

Here we go.

Takeshima 1

Takeshima2

Takeshima3

Takeshima4

Takeshima5

Takeshima6

If you want more proof, please tell me and I will just go to Google and if need be, ask my Japanese and History professors.

And please don't claim you know things without prooving them.And don't ever disrespect me or moderately insult me again without having proof that I'm wrong, all right?

This post has been edited by Suzu: Jun 9 2004, 09:55 AM

[CJK]

god sakes.... you think those sites are not the least bias?! i will not waste my time looking at an argument on a site that ends in .jp and outright proclaims that Japan is the real owner of the islands.

there are hundreds of historians from neutral countries that ask korea to simply end this bickering to the international courts, saying that korea has almost 100% chance of winning, but as stubborn as koreans are they dont wanna take the slight chance.

Im not an extreme nationalist, by the looks of it you seem to stand out to me as an ignorant extreme nationalist who doesnt know the facts.

hell, i wont even bother searching, but korea's claims to Tok-Do/Takeshima go back to approx. 500-600 AD during the times of the ancient kingdoms of korea and not within the last century!

[Ogumo]

What is the board's thoughts on the island of Takeshima?

Takeshima has always been Japanese. They are a group of islands/rocks in the Sea of Japan. During the ancient Shogunal era, emperors or enemies of the state where exiled to similar islands in the vicinity.

But after World War II, as the South Koreans also mobilized and tried to help the Americans liberate South Korea, they managed to get ahold of Takeshima and all other islands in the vicinity, renaming it Takdo.

Japanese citizens on the island have never been treated nicely, like on the Kuriles, and it has been overpopulated with Koreans.

Takeshima is as Japanese as Honshu. Like the Kuriles, it was occupied during a time of war but never returned after the country became peaceful again. The Koreans always use the fact that the Japanese colonial occupation killed millions of Koreans. I am not saying this is not true, it is very true, but in the modern world, land stolen from Japan should be returned to Japan.

What are your thoughts? Ogumo, you know I'm waiting for your reply. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)

I believe japan should just let the koreans have this ridiculous island. Perhaps then they will leave us alone for a change. Because we all know that koreans will not give anything or sell anything to japan out of spite. So let them keep and in return they should leave us the hell alone about it.

Japanese citizens on the island have never been treated nicely, like on the Kuriles, and it has been overpopulated with Koreans.

I don't question that part at all. Do you have any links on the type of treatment they receive? It may come in handy for me later perhaps. In anycase I am sure they are not being tortured or anything like that.

They are a group of islands/rocks in the Sea of Japan.

Exactly. If japan wanted they could blockade the island saying no korean ships are allowed in. However that would just escalate the situation. I say again just let the koreans keep it and maybe they will shut up.

The Koreans always use the fact that the Japanese colonial occupation killed millions of Koreans.

Indeed this is all they know how to talk about. The mistreatment and slaughter of the korean people was japan's biggest mistake. We will never hear the end of it. Japan needs to appologize to these people. Even then they would not except because they love to hate japan far too much. They have many double standards the koreans.

land stolen from Japan should be returned to Japan.

Of course. However no one cares about injustice dealt to japanese people. So forget about it. Just let the koreans keep the little island. It is nothing to get frustrated over. There are bigger things than that.

[Rad Raz]

So let them keep and in return they should leave us the hell alone about it.

Ironic, isn't it other way around when bunch of japanese rightwingers sent to Dokdo/Takeshima to b!tch about it?

[CJK]

Ogumo: We hear a lot about Japanese colonial occupations and the attrocities cuz a lot of people that have lived thru those times still survive. It hasnt been too long ago, under a lifetime, were all just too young to know any better.

[MiSta MujiGe]

it's funny how some japanese talk like dokdo was theirs from the beginning of time, and say it like "here, we'll just give dokdo to korea since we are more generous." what a joke.

[aspire]

Tokdo is Korean territory.

Historically speaking, records show that Dokdo was administered by the Korean Shilly Dynasty at least from 512AD. Even the first Japanese written record on Dokdo, the Records on Observations in Onshu, published in 1667 admits this fact. There are also land surveys and maps that were drawn up throughout the ages that show the correct geographical location of Dokdo and show them as Korean territory. In addition to these Korean documents, there are also Japanese archival documents and maps made in the 1660s and 1770s, which clearly described Dokdo as Korean territory. In 1923, the Japanese Navy cited Dokdo as Korean territory in its publication, “Chosen Engan Suiroshi” (Korean Coastal Straits).

The historical evidence is enough to prove that Dokdo is Korean.

Let's take a look at some modern history.

Now, in terms of when Japan annexed Dokdo in 1905. They took over Dokdo for military purposes to set up a watch tower on it during the Russo-Japanese War. The Japanese say that the Korean side did not even protest against the annexation of Dokdo, but Korean documents clearly show that both the government and the people denounced and rejected the actions of Japan.

The Japanese, in their efforts to modernize and reform, pursued colonization and thus pressed outwards during their Meiji Restoration and thus annexed Korea and of course Dokdo. You'll probably mention that Korea was annexed in 1910 and that Dokdo was annexed in 1905. That is correct, but as your Asian history professor will tell you, Japan basically had countrol of Korea starting in the late 1890s and in the early 1900s where the Japanese began to acquire monetary rights, railway, mining and fishing concessions in Korea. Taking over Dokdo in 1905 was not a big problem for the Japanese, but in order to colonize Korea (you have to remember that Japan intended to permanently keep Korea colonized), Japan had to defeat the Russians in the Russo-Japanese War to solidify their influence and prove to everyone that Korea was theirs before officially taking Korea. Basically, with the defeat to the Russians and the defeat to China(1895) and the agreements Japan had with other European powers, Japan took Dokdo along with Korea in the early 1900s.

So what happened when the Japanese were defeated? Well, of course Japan had to give back all the territories it had aquired through violence and greed (remember the stipulation from the Cairo Conference?) BUT Japanese argued that it did not have to give back Dokdo because it was annexed in 1905 - not 1910 when Korea was annexed. Basically Japan's position is that the Cairo Conference does not apply to Dokdo. WRONG. The Cairo Conference required Japan to give back all land it had aquired through VIOLENCE AND GREED. Japanese violence and greed, as it applies to the Cairo Conference, started in 1895 when Japan won the Sino-Japanese war and seized the Liaotung peninsula, Taiwan and the Pescadores, which were restored to China after the end of World War II. The Cairo Conference requirement thus also applies to Dokdo, which Japan grabbed from Korea "by violence and greed" in 1905.

Furthermore, SCAP instruction #667 outlined which lands were Japanese and which were not and not surprisingly, Ullungdo, Chejudo and Dokdo were excluded from Japanese territory.

Anyways, all i'm saying is that Dokdo is pretty much Korean. The evidence is there and if you do some thorough research, you'll see gaping holes in the Japanese argument.

[RiverPlate4Life]

I believe japan should just let the koreans have this ridiculous island.

It was never Japan's to give in the first place, bro. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

Ultra nationalistic Japanese like Ogumo, Barker, and Suzu should tour as a comedy troupe. There aren't many Japanese like them you know, so let's not get worked up with what those clowns write on anonymous internet message boards.

By the way, where in Japan are you from Ogumo? I understand you don't think too highly of people in Tokyo. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ComradeJing]

Japanese citizens on the island have never been treated nicely,

Ogumo, I'm sure Suzu is full of BS on this part. Dokdo/Takeshima has pretty much always been uninhabited and there has never been anyone to live permanently on the island. The only people to ever land on the island were fisherman who did not live there but rather used it as a waypoint. Even now the only presence is a South Korean coast guard station, the island is too small to be economically viable.

To say that Japanese citizens have been mistreated is a bit of a stretch... considering there have never been any there. :genius:

This post has been edited by ComradeJing: Jun 9 2004, 01:07 PM

[MiSta MujiGe]

Japanese citizens on the island have never been treated nicely,

Ogumo, I'm sure Suzu is full of BS on this part. Dokdo/Takeshima has pretty much always been uninhabited and there has never been anyone to live permanently on the island. The only people to ever land on the island were fisherman who did not live there but rather used it as a waypoint. Even now the only presence is a South Korean coast guard station, the island is too small to be economically viable.

To say that Japanese citizens have been mistreated is a bit of a stretch... considering there have never been any there. :genius:

i guess some japanese never even saw how dokdo looks like. i think it's almost impossible for anyone to build houses and live there.

[Ogumo]

[quote=Rad Raz,Jun 9 2004, 11:46 AM] [quote=Ogumo,Jun 9 2004, 11:40 AM] So let them keep and in return they should leave us the hell alone about it.


[/quote]
Ironic, isn't it other way around when bunch of japanese rightwingers sent to Dokdo/Takeshima to b!tch about it? [/quote]
Wow such outrage that I have gotten from the korean memebers here. Unfortunately I do not really care.

Radraz:
Yes the right wingers need to leave the koreans alone. I hope they do not make or try to make another trip there.


CJK:
[quote]Ogumo: We hear a lot about Japanese colonial occupations and the attrocities cuz a lot of people that have lived thru those times still survive. It hasnt been too long ago, under a lifetime, were all just too young to know any better. [/quote]

Let me tell you something. I have nothing really wrong with the koreans talking about or being angry about the crimes japan commit against them. I will never argue with that. My problem is when they just through it back out when ever it is convienient for them. Just to get one up on japanese people.

MiSta MujiGe:

[quote]  it's funny how some japanese talk like dokdo was theirs from the beginning of time, and say it like "here, we'll just give dokdo to korea since we are more generous." what a joke. [/quote]

What is more funny is how the koreans actually believe that it is their right to have that land. I do not care if japan had the island for one month. It was under japanese control. Also I did not say to give it to the koreans out of generousity. I said they should be allowed to keep it so the koreans will shut up about the place. I dont care about generousity to anyone.Get it right.

RiverPlate4Life:

[quote]It was never Japan's to give in the first place, bro.  [/quote]

It belonged to japan before it belonged to korea.

[quote]Ultra nationalistic Japanese like Ogumo, Barker, and Suzu should tour as a comedy troupe. [/quote]

Korean tactic. Why is it when ever koreans disagree with japanese people they must accuse them of ultranationalism or racism? Support your comment about me or leave it alone. You are playing games now.

[quote]There aren't many Japanese like them you know, so let's not get worked up with what those clowns write on anonymous internet message boards.[/quote]

Correct. It is unfortunate that the majority do not share my view of things. However this is only because they are victims of the leftwing propaganda.

[quote]By the way, where in Japan are you from Ogumo? I understand you don't think too highly of people in Tokyo.[/quote]

I will pm you if you want. In anycase the phrase "does not really like" was not accurate. Good day.

ComradeJing:
[quote]Ogumo, I'm sure Suzu is full of BS on this part. Dokdo/Takeshima has pretty much always been uninhabited and there has never been anyone to live permanently on the island. [/quote]

This island was inhabited by japanese people.

[quote]The only people to ever land on the island were fisherman who did not live there but rather used it as a waypoint.[/quote]

Then it may be incorrect. I was always under the impression that fishermen actually lived there.

[quote]Even now the only presence is a South Korean coast guard station, the island is too small to be economically viable.[/quote]

To be honest with you I do not know much about the island except for random things. I know that the south korean coast guard is there. I dont know who else there though. In anycase you did make a good statement about that place being so small...

Muji:
[quote]i guess some japanese never even saw how dokdo looks like. i think it's almost impossible for anyone to build houses and live there. [/quote]

I have seen it. Just not photos taken from the air. Perhaps some of you can supply. I am too lazy to look. In anycase japan should just give up on this little place.

[MiSta MujiGe]

"Unfortunately I do not really care."

and yet, you still took time to reply to everyone's posts.

"I do not care if japan had the island for one month. It was under japanese control."

under your logic, then entire korean peninsula must be japanese property since japan colonized korea for few decades.

"It belonged to japan before it belonged to korea."

since when? care to give some actual facts?

[Ogumo]

"Unfortunately I do not really care."

and yet, you still took time to reply to everyone's posts.

"I do not care if japan had the island for one month. It was under japanese control."

under your logic, then entire korean peninsula must be japanese property since japan colonized korea for few decades.

"It belonged to japan before it belonged to korea."

since when? care to give some actual facts?

and yet, you still took time to reply to everyone's posts.

Well I wasnt going to ignore them. That would be rude.

under your logic, then entire korean peninsula must be japanese property since japan colonized korea for few decades.

Not quite. Nice try though. Korea is inhabited country of it's own. For japan to rule over them would be imperialism. Now the takeshima was was uninhabited and in japan's territory.

since when? care to give some actual facts?

Since 1905.

[MiSta MujiGe]

Since 1905.

then who's territory was it prior to 1905?

[Ogumo]

Since 1905.

then who's territory was it prior to 1905?

At point some korean kingdom did own it years previously. They eventually collapsed or were conquered by another korean kingdom (silla?). After that they were just a stray island. Up until 1905 of course.

[Suzu]

Thank you, Ogumo.

Well then, CJK, if you won't look at the bias because it has .jp after it, then I'm sure you will bring me an even more biased Korean site that has biased info about what Japan has done to Koreans on Takeshima.

Japan is in a spot because if it makes a claim on territory or utters its voice it will become bombared with claims that it is rearming itself.

Takeshima was Japanese territory, there is proof. Koreans owned it, but it always came into Japanese control after awhile.