Vietnam - Dynasties And Emperors Options

[Nam Quoc Son Ha]

Hong Bang Dynasty (2809-258BC) (Legend)
Country Name: Van Lang
Legend of the 18 Emperors: Hung Duong - Loc Tuc (father of the country)

Hung Hien - Sung Lam (Lac Long Quan - Au Co and the 100 eggs legend)

Hung Lan

Hung Viep

Hung Hy

Hung Huy

Hung Chieu

Hung Vy

Hung Dinh

Hung Hy

Hung Trinh

Hung Vo

Hung Viet

Hung Anh

Hung Trieu

Hung Tao

Hung Nghi

Hung Due


Thuc Dynasty (257-208 BC)
Country Name: Au Lac (unification of Au Viet and Lac Viet lands)
Emperors: Thuc Phan (257-208) (An Duong Vuong)

Trieu Dynasty (207-111 BC)
Country Name: Nam Viet

Emperors: Trieu Da (207-136) (Vo Vuong)

Trieu Ho (136-124) (Van Vuong)

Trieu Anh Te (124-112) (Minh Vuong)

Trieu Hung (112) (Ap Vuong)

Trieu Kien Duc (111) (Duong Vuong)

Chinese occupation (111 BC- 939 AD) During this period, many Vietnamese heroes rose up and defeated their Chinese rulers. However most were short lived.

Trung Nu Vuong (39-43 AD)
Country Name: Giao Chi

Trung Trac and Trung Nhi (co-queens of Viet Nam)

Earlier Ly Dynasty (544-602 AD) Country Name: Dai Viet Country Name: Dai Viet
Country Name: Van Xuan

Emperors: Ly Bon ? Thien Duc (544-548)

Thien Bao (549-555)

Trieu Quang Phuc (549-570)

Ly Phat Tu (571-602)

Independence:

Ngo Dynasty (939-959 AD) first National dynasty
Country Name: Dai Viet

Emperors: Ngo Quyen (939-944)

Tam Kha (944-950)

Xuong Van (950-965)

Xuong Ngap (951-959)

Dinh Dynasty (968-980 AD)
Country Name: Dai Co Viet

Emperors: Dinh Bo Linh (968-979) (Dinh Tien Hoang)

Dinh De Toan (980) (Phe De)

Early Le Dynasty (980-1009 AD)
Country Name: Dai Co Viet

Emperors: Le Hoan (980-1005) (Le Dai Hanh)

Le Trung Tong (1005)

Le Long Dinh (1006-1009) (Ngoa Trieu)

Ly Dynasty (1010-1225 AD)

Country Name: Dai Co Viet

Emperors: Thuan Thien (1010-1028) (Thai To)

Thien Thanh (1028-1054) (Thai Tong)

Long Thuy (1054-1072) (Thanh Tong)

Thai Ninh (1072-1128) (Nhan Tong)

Thien Thuan (1128-1138) (Than Tong) named country Dai Viet

Thieu Minh (1138-1175) (Anh Tong)

Trinh Phu (1176-1210) (Cao Tong)

Kien Gia (1211-1225) (Hue Tong)

Thien Chuong (1225) (Chieu Hoang) <-- Empress, later wife to Thai Tong when Ly was overthrown by Tran

Tran Dynasty (1225-1400 AD)
Country Name: Dai Viet

Credits of the creation of this dynasty goes to Tran Thu Do.

Emperors: Kien Trung (1225-1258) (Thai Tong)

Thieu Long (1258-1278) (Thanh Tong)

Thieu Bao (1279-1293) (Nhan Tong)

Hung Long (1293-1314) (Anh Tong)

Dai Khanh (1314-1329) (Minh Tong)

Khai Huu (1329-1341) (Hien Tong)

Thieu Phong (1341-1369) (Du Tong)

Dai Dinh (1369-1370)

Thieu Khanh (1370-1372) (Nghe Tong)

Long Khanh (1373-1377) (Due Tong)

Xuong Phu (1377-1388) (Phe De)

Quang Thai (1388-1398) (Thuan Tong)

Kien Tan (1398-1400) (Thieu De)

Ho Dynasty (1400-1407 AD)
Country Name: Dai Ngu

Emperors: Thanh Nguyen (1400-1401) Ho Quy Ly

Thieu Thanh (1401-1407) (Han Thuong)

Later Tran Dynasty (1407-1414 AD)
Country Name : An Nam

Emperors: Hung Khanh (1407-1409) (Gian Dinh De)

Trung Quang (1409-1414) (Trung Quang De)

Le Dynasty 1428-1527
Country Name: Dai Viet

Emperors: Thuan Thien (1428-1433) (Thai To)

Thieu Binh (1433-1442) (Thai Tong) *peak of Vietnamese greatness

Thai Hoa (1442-1459) (Nhan Tong)

Hong Duc (1460-1497) (Thanh Tong)

Canh Thong (1498-1504) (Hien Tong)

Thai Trinh (1504) (Tuc Tong)

Doan Khanh (1505-1509)

Hong Thuan (1509-1516) (Tuong Duc)

Quang Thieu (1516-1522) (Chieu Tong)

Thong Nguyen (1522-1527) (Cung Hoang)

Mac Dynasty (1527-1692 AD)
Country Name: Dai Viet

Emperors: Minh Duc (1527-1529) (Mac Dang Dung)

Dai Chinh (1530-1540) (Mac Dang Doanh)

Quang Hoa (1541-1546) (Mac Phuc Hai)

Vinh Dinh (1546-1561) (Mac Phuc Nguyen)

Thuan Phuc (1562-1592) (Mac Mau Hop)

Later Le Dynasty (1533-1788 AD)
Country Name : Dai Viet

Emperors: Nguyen Hoa (1533-1548) ((Trang Tong - Trinh Kiem)

Thuan Binh (1549-1556) (Trung Tong)

Thien Huu (1557-1573) (Anh Tong)

Gia Thai (1573-1599) (The Tong)

Thuan Duc (1600-1619) (Kinh Tong)

Vinh To (1619-1643) (Than Tong) <-- passed the throne to his son and become Thai Thuong Hoang

Phuc Thai (1643-1649) (Chan Tong)

Vinh To (1649-1662) (Than Tong) <-- upon his son's death he regains kingship

Canh Tri (1663-1671) (Huyen Tong)

Duong Duc (1672-1675) (Gia Tong)

Vinh Tri (1676-1704) (Hy Tong)

Vinh Thinh (1704-1728) (Du Tong)

Vinh Khanh (1729-1732) (Duc Tong)

Long Duc (1732-1735) (Thuan Tong)

Vinh Huu (1735-1740) (Y Tong)

Canh Hung (1740-1786) (Hien Tong)

Chieu Thong (1787-1788) <--- traitor, rots in hell

Tay Son Dynasty (1778-1802 AD)
Country Name: Dai Viet

Quang Trung 1788-1792 (Thai Duc Hoang De - Tay Son Nguyen Hue)

Canh Thinh 1793-1802 (Canh Thinh Hoang De)

Nguyen Dynasty (1802-1945 AD)
Country Name : Viet Nam <-- first appearance

Gia Long (1802-1819) <-- traitor, invited the Thais into Vietnam. Fortunately Emperor Quang Trung defeated them. Too bad he died early and this traitor became emperor.

Minh Mang (1820-1840)

Thieu Tri (1841-1847)

Tu Duc (1848-1883)

Duc Duc (1883) reigned 3 days

Hiep Hoa (1883) reigned 6 months

Kien Phuc (1883-1884)

Ham Nghi (1884-1885)

Dong Khanh (1886-1888)

Thanh Thai (1889-1907)

Duy Tan (1907-1916)

Khai Dinh (1916-1925)

Bao Dai (1926-1945) Head of State 1948-1955

This post has been edited by Nam Quoc Son Ha: Jun 11 2004, 05:18 AM

[dalawapo]

hey quoc, i know of what seems to be a really cool site about all the kingdoms of southeast asian mainland and also insular southeast asia.... and even kingdoms of other parts of the world... maybe you would like to cross reference your list with the one provided in here about Vietnam. The list in the site has decisive dates etc. well i just want to bring it to your attention:

http://ellone-loire.net/obsidian/seasia.html

[Nam Quoc Son Ha]

Thanks Tony. I know my list is not yet complete so I'll be updating it time and again. I was expecting a Vietnamese to contribute but it's great that the person happens to be you. The names were their real names. I'll be adding their titles soon.

[PraChanMuy]

Can someone tell me about the 100 eggs legend?

[blank book]

PraChanMuy, this site has what you're looking for along with a few other Vietnamese myths as well.

http://www.askasia.org/frclasrm/readings/r000061.htm

[PraChanMuy]

Thanks for the link blank book. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[blank book]

You're welcome.

[Nam Quoc Son Ha]

The long march to independence
(1st century, BC - 10th century, AD)

The Imperial Policy of the Han

Socio - economic Transformation

Insurrections and the Struggle for Independence

The Tang Recovering of Independence


In the 3rd century BC, the Han people who lived in the Yellow River basin unified China, merging the various ethnic groups who lived in southern China to the south of the Yangtze River into a centralized empire . This feudal empire soon spread southwards. In 111 B.C. the Han dynasty sent an expeditionary corps to conquer the kingdom of Nam Viet established by Chao To, who had brought the kingdom of Au Lac and several territories in southern China together under his rule .

The Han integrated Au Lac into their empire, creating the commandery of Chiao Chih, which was divided into provinces and districts. The three provinces, which constituted present-day northern Vietnam to the 18th parallel, had a population of 981,375 people according to Han documents. From this time on, the history of Vietnam evolved under the combined influence of two contradictory factors. On the one hand, there was a policy of' economic exploitation and cultural assimilation, and on the other, there was a steadfast popular resistance marked by armed insurrection against foreign domination. A final resistance led to the preservation of the identity of the Vietnamese people after many centuries, the emergence of a national consciousness, and the establishment of the independent state of Vietnam. While keeping its unique character, the nation's culture also adopted quite a few elements of Chinese culture. Ten centuries of domination resulted in a thorough transformation of Vietnamese society.

The Imperial Policy of the Han



At first, for their own benefit, the Han retained the system of lac hau and lac tuong, the civilian and military chiefs of the early communities; little by little, they replaced them with functionaries appointed by the court who administered the country down to province and district levels (there were three provinces and 56 districts). A mandarin, protected by an armed entourage, presided over each district. The rural communes, which contained most of the population, escaped their direct rule so that this administration very slowly expanded its network throughout the country while coping with a stubborn popular resistance. The imperial functionaries came from China, accompanied by an entourage of scribes, agents and family members. Many of them settled in the country permanently

The population had to make a double contribution: a tribute to the imperial court and taxes, duties and corvee to maintain the administration and military apparatus. The tribute paid to the court mostly comprised valuable tropical products such as ivory, mother-of-pearl, pearls and sandalwood which Chinese documents of the time described as abundant and varied products from the southern territories. Tropical fruit, various handicraft items, fabric, gold or silver engravings, and mother-of-pearl inlay work were also required. A certain number of craftsmen were exiled to work for the court while part of the population was compelled to hunt for elephant and rhinoceros in forests or dive into the sea to gather pearls or coral.

Each inhabitant had to pay a head-tax and a land tax on each plot; the population was also forced to supply corvee labourers to dig canals and build roads and citadels. Chinese documents describe many revolts due to this systematic exploitation and extortion by imperial functionaries.

At the same time, the feudal Han carried out a policy of systematic cultural assimilation, the empire having to be unified in all aspects. The first concern was to impose veneration of the emperor, Son of Heaven; use of the indeographic script was enforced as a vehicle for the official doctrine, Confucianism. At the centre of human obligation was absolute loyalty to the monarch, who ruled not only human society but also the kingdom of the gods. A tightly-woven network of obligations and rites bound societal and individual life, strictly governing relationships between parents and children, husbands and wives, between friends, and between subjects and the imperial administration which tried to replace old customs with laws and rites inspired by Confucian doctrine.

Socio - economic Transformation.



Economic exploitation by the occupiers hampered the development of productive forces but could not check them. Excavation of tombs dating from the 1st to the 6th centuries has revealed the progressive diffusion of iron tools, production implements and weapons already known in the previous era. Iron cauldrons, nails and tripods appeared while objects in bronze became less common, although the making of bronze drums continued for centuries.

In the 1st century, furrowing with iron ploughshares on wingploughs drawn by oxen or water buffaloes gradually replaced cultivation in burned out clearings. In particular, hydraulic works, canals and dykes ensured control over water; the use of fertilizer facilitated intensive farming, the practice of growing two crops a year on well-irrigated fields for example. The growing of tubers such as sweet potato, sugarcane and mulberry was already known, as well as various vegetables and fruit trees. Mulberry growing and silkworm raising took pride of place; there was also betel, areca-nut trees, medicinal plants, bamboo and rattan, which supplied raw materials for basket making. From the earliest centuries, there was thus a diversified agriculture which, gradually improved, would last for a very long time.

Handicrafts also reached a relatively high level. Many tools of iron and bronze were forged; ceramics with enamel coating was added to the already flourishing pottery of the previous era . The remains of citadels, pagodas and tombs showed that brick and tile making was thriving, some of which were also coated with a layer of enamel.

The most prosperous handicraft occupations were weaving and basket-making. Fabrics in cotton and silk and baskets of bamboo and rattan were sought after items. In the 3rd century, paper began to be made using techniques imported from China. Glass-making techniques also came to Vietnam from China and India. To meet the need for luxury goods for the court and local functionaries, the making of objects in engraved gold and silver underwent new development, the quality of which improved through the use of Chinese techniques. Lacquer was already known. It could be said that Vietnamese handicrafts established themselves during this period.

If the economy as a whole remained autarkic, certain products supplied markets in administrative centres such as Long Bien (in present-day Ha Bac province) which had trading quarters. River and sea transport was carried out using sampans or junks, some of which had barges and several score oarsmen. The Red River and the road running along it led to Yunnan and Sichuan, and hence to Central Asia as well as Burma. Communication with China was achieved by both sea and land, the road being dotted with many relays. Chiao Chih served as a port of call for junks from Java, Burma, Iran, India and even the Roman empire on their way to China. In large centres, there were a number of foreign residents such as Khmers and Indians. The vessels carried local products, valuable timbers, ivory and handicrafts, and also took part in the slave trade. This external trade was entirely monopolized by the occupiers.

The Han policy of cultural assimilation benefited from the prestige of Chinese civilization,, which was then at a high level, but it was confronted with a stubborn resistance. The Vietnamese language was largely borrowed from Chinese, but the words had been Vietnamized to become part and parcel of the language which was progressively enriched without losing its identity; popular literature kept its vigour while beginning to develop a learned literature written in Han (classical Chinese). Despite Confucian rites and precepts, many local traditions continued the veneration of founding fathers or patriots, participation by women in patriotic activities, and the making and use of bronze drums during great ceremonies. Relics found in the tombs of that era show stronger Han civilization influence; the indigenous upper classes came under greater foreign influence than the population at large or rural communities. However, Dong Son art was still clearly seen with its decorations and statuettes.

Together with Confucianism, Buddhist and Taoist doctrine also made their way into Chiao Chih. Buddhism, coming from India by sea and from China by land, was conspicuous from the 2nd and 6th centuries, with the town of Luy Lau (in present-day Ha Bac province) having 20 towers, 500 bonzes and 15 already-translated sutras. Taoism integrated itself with local beliefs, giving rise to magical, medical and ascetic practices. The main characteristic of these religions was that they did not encourage fanaticism nor exclude one another, thus helping to preserve unity within the national community.

Following the conquest by the Han, Vietnamese society gradually turned into a feudal society. De jure, land belonged entirely to the emperor, while all members of the population became his subjects, bound to pay taxes, corvee and other duties. Nevertheless, the communes stayed more or less autonomous. To ensure domination, the Han feudalists advocated the creation of "military colonies"; military men, political or common-law prisoners and destitute people coming from China together with destitute Vietnamese and landless peasants were recruited to reclaim and exploit the land under the direction of officers or functionaries. At the same time, private domains were created by Chinese functionaries settled for good in the country or indigenes loyal to the administration (members of the former ruling classes or notables from rural communities). After the 2nd century, a certain number of Vietnamese who had received a good education had access to mandarin posts and, hence, could set up private domains. Slaves worked in these military colonies and domains. The tombs of that era often reveal models in baked earth of domains with outer areas dotted with watchtowers, houses, granaries and stables. As time went by, the Chinese functionaries and their descendants living in the country became "Vietnamized". With indigenous functionaries and landowners, they constituted an indigenous ruling class with feudal characteristics.

Shaped in a country subject to the harsh domination of the Han imperialists, this feudal class was opposed in some aspects to the court and sided with the population. Internal disturbances in China, caused mostly by peasant revolts, created favourable conditions for an open struggle against Chinese imperialist domination for secession - first temporary, then definitive.

Insurrections and the Struggle for Independence



The grim resistance by the population against Chinese imperialist domination, which persisted century after century, time and again, broke out in the form of armed insurrection. The most important was that of the two sisters, Trung Trac and Trung Nhi, born of a family of military chiefs in the district of Me Linh (northwest of Hanoi). Between 40 and 43 A.D the Trung sisters launched a vast movement throughout Chiao Chih led by women in many places. Trung Trac was made "Queen" and Chinese imperialist domination was overthrown. The Han emperor, then at the peak of his power, had to send his best general, Ma Yuan "Tamer of Waters"to Chiao Chih. By the end of the year 43 A.D., the insurrection was crushed, but it left an indelible imprint on the history of the country.

However, Chinese annals kept deploring that "the people of Chiao Chih, relying on remote inaccessible areas, liked to rebel". The insurrection in the Red River valley spread to the south; military posts and the domains of imperial functionaries were attacked. Another young woman, Lady Trieu, launched a large-scale movement against foreign domination in 48 A.D. in the province of Chiu Chen (present-day Thanh Hoa) . She said, "I'd like to ride storms, kill the sharks in the open sea, drive out the aggressors, reconquer the country, undo the tics of serfdom, and never bend my back to be the concubine of any man". Riding an elephant, she led the way to the battlefield. However, she was unable to maintain a very long resistance against the Chinese Imperial army.

Other insurrections marked the 4th and 5th centuries, including one in the year 412 when Chinese peasants who had risen in revolt and been driven out of China co-ordinated their efforts with Vietnamese patriots. The 6th century was marked by a major insurrection led by Li Bi, a notable from Long Hung in present-day Thai Binh province, who launched his movement in 542, swept away the Chinese administration, and defeated a counter-offensive by the imperial army in 543 and an attack by the Cham in the south. In 544 Ly Bi made himself king of Van Xuan kingdom and established a national administration. However, he was defeated by the Chinese imperial army in 545-546 and died in 548, handing over command to one of his aides, Trieu Quang Phuc. The latter mustered his troops in the swampy areas of Da Trach (in present-day Hai Hung province), carrying out guerrilla raids and making himself king after Ly Bi's death. In 550, availing himself of internal disturbances in China, he reconquered a sizable part of the nation's territory. However, the Vietnamese feudalists did not get on together and the last decades of the 6th century were marked by their rivalry, which enabled China's Sui dynasty to reconquer the country in 603.

The Sui dynasty moved the administrative capital to Tong Binh (present-day Hanoi). In 618, the Tang dynasty took power in China; China's economy and culture saw unprecedented development as the empire experienced its greatest ever expansion. For the Tang dynasty, Chiao Chill (Vietnam) was not only a colony for exploitation, but also a starting point for expansion into Southeast Asia. In 679, they instituted the "Protectorate of Annam (Pacified South)"; the term then came to be used for tile country itself. The Tang dynasty extended their administrative network to cover villages and mountainous regions; the annual tribute to the Court and the various taxes, cover and duties were increased. However agriculture and handicrafts in particular, continued to develop, as well as land, river and maritime communications. The three doctrines -Confucianism, Taoism, and notably Buddhism - spread nationwide, without doing away with local beliefs. The veneration of local genies, often patriots or founders of villages, remained widespread. In order to stifle deep-rooted national sentiment, the Chinese imperialists used geomancy in an attempt to drain the "veins of the dragon" running through Vietnamese soi resulting in resistance from the people. In society, more and more of those obtaining high positions in the administration through education or bribery were those who obtained important domains.

Under the Tang dynasty the country faced several invasions from the south - Champa, Java, and Malaya and from the kingdom of Nan Chiao (present-day Yunnan). In 863, Nan Chiao troops reached the capital Tong Binh and destroyed it. The Tang Court had to send General Gao Pian to fight against the Nan Chiao. Becoming governor after defeating the Nan Chiao, Gao Pian tried to suppress the nationalist movement which had continued to develop after the Tang dynasty took power.

The Tang Recovering of Independence



Many insurrections took place under the Tang dynasty, including that of Ly Tu Tien and Dinh Kien in 687, of Mai Thuc Loan in 722, of Phung Hung in 766-791, and Duong Thanh in 819-820. By the end of the 9th century, internal disturbances, particularly the insurrection of Hwang Chao (874-83) in China, shook the Tang reign and China entered a long period of anarchy that started at the beginning of the 10th century. In 905, the last governor sent by the Chinese imperial court to Vietnam died.

Taking advantage of the disturbances in China, a notable from Cu Bo (in the present-day province of Hai Hung), Khuc Thua Du, made himself governor, and in 906 the Tang court had to recognize this fait accompli. Khuc Thua Du's son, Khuc Hao, tried to set up a national administration; in 930 the Southern Ban dynasty, which had taken power in southern China, again invaded the country. In 931, however, a patriot, Duong Dinh Nghe, took up the fight and made himself governor. After Duong Dinh Nghe died, murdered by one of his aides, the fight was led by Ngo Quyen, who in 938 clashed with a Southern Han expeditionary corps approaching by sea. The Southern Han fleet entered Vietnam via the Bach Dang estuary (mouth of the river which flows into Halong Bay) where iron-tipped stakes had been sunk into the riverbed by Ngo Quyen. At high-tide a Vietnamese flotilla attacked the enemy then, pretending to escape, lured the Southern Han boats into the estuary beyond the stakes still covered by the tide. At low-tide, the entire Vietnamese fleet counter-attacked, forcing the enemy to flee and sink, impaled on the barrage of stakes.

The Bach Dang victory in 938 put an end to the period of Chinese imperial domination. In 939 Ngo Quyen proclaimed himself king, established his capital at Co Loa (previously a capital in the 3rd century B.C.) and set up a centralized government. It was the first truly independent Vietnamese state.

Domestically, the main obstacle to the founding of a centralized power structure capable of assuming direction of the economy - management of the dyke system in particular - and of successfully resisting foreign aggression was the existence of feudal lords who each ruled an area of territory. On the death of Ngo Quyen in 944, 12 warlords divided the country among themselves and began to fight one another.

Starting from Hoa Lu in present-day Ha Nam Ninh, Dinh Bo Linh defeated them all, one after another, and unified the country in 967. The next year he made himself king, named the country Dai Co Viet, established his capital at Hoa Lu, reorganized the army and administration, and appointed renowned Buddhist monks as advisers. The murder of Dinh Bo Linh in 979 brought a six-year-old child to the throne. Meanwhile the Sung dynasty had taken power in China where order was restored. A Sung expeditionary corps was sent to reconquer Vietnam, which was also being attacked from the south by the Cham. To deal with this danger, the Court and army appointed a talented general, Le Hoan. The latter defeated the Sung army on both land and water, thus saving the country (981). The next year, and expedition led by Le Hoan invaded the Kingdom of Champa and conquered its capital Indrapura (now in Quang Nam province), removing the threat of invasion from the south for a long time to come.

[blank book]

Wow, I've learned more about Vietnam's history in your two posts than...well...than ever I suppose. Anyways, I've been thinking, would history be different if conquerers had treated their new subjects with more respect and kindness? Many of the rebellions in history were due to unfair taxation and the mistreatment of a group of people. Would they still have rebelled if they were treated as possible equals?

[Nam Quoc Son Ha]

Wow, I've learned more about Vietnam's history in your two posts than...well...than ever I suppose. Anyways, I've been thinking, would history be different if conquerers had treated their new subjects with more respect and kindness? Many of the rebellions in history were due to unfair taxation and the mistreatment of a group of people. Would they still have rebelled if they were treated as possible equals?

Who knows. All I know is that the Vietnamese people are fiercely proud of our independence. There's a saying by Tran Binh Trong that "Tha lam quy nuoc Nam, con hon lam vuong dat Bac", roughly translated as rather be the ghost of Vietnam than a prince of the North (China).

Same goes for me. I'd rather be a poor Vietnamese than a wealthy Vietnamese Chinese. I want my own people to have their own independent country. Otherwise our people's identity would just disappear with the sand of time.

[blank book]

Well, I'm just glad we were able to keep most of our culture intact in one way or another.

[Nam Quoc Son Ha]

Yes me too. I often view our 2500 years of history as the "Vietnamese miracle". Against so much odd yet triumphed.

Vietnam's Independence cannot be compromised.

[ngo.ngochy]

Hy is a girl's name (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/madgo.gif)

Anyway, if Van Lang is a legend, how can you find the names of our kings?

[Johannjs]

Hi all,

To NQSH: have you got this link? http://www.viettouch.com

this site has been renewed lately, quite nicely.

and there are plenty of old photos or images of how the kings & emperors' looked, a graphical history timeline, and a whole section about the warrior Cham Kingdom in Vietnam history.

have a look also at the "Essential Vietnam-related Sites" thread. I added my new directory site with thorough descriptions there.

To all: try http://www.alovelyworld.com/

This post has been edited by Johannjs: Jun 13 2004, 04:43 AM

[vn1234]

"Thus, the Hung Vuong era, formerly thought to have vanished by the 3rd cent. B.C.E, is now proved to have lasted until 43 C.E"

Trieu Da never defeated King An Duong Vuong, and the reign of King An Duong Vuong was not present - the Hung Vuong lineage continued straight until Hai Ba Trung

"It is also discovered that the events of Trieu Da defeating An Duong Vuong in the 2nd century B.C.E. was simply a fiction invented from the story of Yuddhisthira defeating Duryodhana in the Mahabharata.57 The Luc do tap kinh, story no. 23. also mentions a similar account. Again, Vietnamese historians recorded this narrative to determine that the Hung kingdom perished by the 3rd century B.C.E. But with the presence of the Viet Laws and these fables, the Hung era is now asserted that it lasted until Hai Ba Trung was defeated in 43 C.E., and not overthrown by An Duong Vuong in 2nd-3rd centuries B.C.E. as history has it."

http://www.quangduc.net/English/0202buddhisminvietnam.html

[supernovasp]

"Thus, the Hung Vuong era, formerly thought to have vanished by the 3rd cent. B.C.E, is now proved to have lasted until 43 C.E"

Trieu Da never defeated King An Duong Vuong, and the reign of King An Duong Vuong was not present - the Hung Vuong lineage continued straight until Hai Ba Trung

"It is also discovered that the events of Trieu Da defeating An Duong Vuong in the 2nd century B.C.E. was simply a fiction invented from the story of Yuddhisthira defeating Duryodhana in the Mahabharata.57 The Luc do tap kinh, story no. 23. also mentions a similar account. Again, Vietnamese historians recorded this narrative to determine that the Hung kingdom perished by the 3rd century B.C.E. But with the presence of the Viet Laws and these fables, the Hung era is now asserted that it lasted until Hai Ba Trung was defeated in 43 C.E., and not overthrown by An Duong Vuong in 2nd-3rd centuries B.C.E. as history has it."

http://www.quangduc.net/English/0202buddhisminvietnam.html

Although Trieuda tomb was excavated in Guangdong. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

After his victory over Hai Ba Trung, Ma Yuan sent up a memorial to the Han emperor, citing that the Viet people "have their own legal system, called Viet luat (Viet laws)

Althought the word "luat" itself comes from the Zhou era loet.

Not to notice that Buddhism was flourish after Vietnam was independent, during the ly era.

This post has been edited by supernovasp: Jun 14 2004, 01:46 PM

[vn1234]

Exactly - I am lucky to stumble on someone who posted some info about this on the net regarding this exact book of Le Manh That, pages 22 - 25 of Lich Su Phat Giao VN 2

Pardon my spelling mistakes below

"Thứ nhất là lá thư của Triệu Đà gởi cho Hán Văn Đế vào năm 179tdl xác nhận Tây Âu Lạc, tức nước ta, đang có vua, và thứ hai là việc Mã Viện điều tấu Việt Luật có hơn mười điều khác Hán luật. Như thế, Triệu Đà không làm vua nước ta là một điều chắc chắn. Dòng họ Triệu chỉ làm vua nước Nam Việt, tức vùng Quảng Đông, Quảng Tây của Trung Quốc bây giờ. Kết luận này ngày nay phần lớn đã được chấp nhận."

So Trieu Da had control of Quang Dong (where his tomb was found) and Quang Tay, but not Au Lac.

Le Manh That has real artifacts to back up his claims and he is internationally known so his findings aren't considered bogus.

About the word "Luat" - yes indeed, that is why the quote said "Ma Yuan sent up a memorial to the Han emperor" - Ma Yuan was talking in the tongue of the Chinese at that time to the Han Empoeror - hence he used the word "Luat" - those are the words of Ma Yuan, not a Viet person so the utalization of "Luat" makes sense.

Not to notice that Buddhism was flourish after Vietnam was independent, during the ly era.

Nope - the link explains more in the footnotes. Buddhism always prevailent in VN, but historians didn't have enough resources and skill to extract those facts back then. - IT IS IN THE FOOTNOTES TO THE LINK I POSTED

This post has been edited by vn1234: Jun 14 2004, 02:13 PM

[supernovasp]

Exactly - I am lucky to stumble on someone who posted some info about this on the net regarding this exact book of Le Manh That, pages 22 - 25 of Lich Su Phat Giao VN 2

Pardon my spelling mistakes below

"Thứ nhất là lá thư của Triệu Đà gởi cho Hán Văn Đế vào năm 179tdl xác nhận Tây Âu Lạc, tức nước ta, đang có vua, và thứ hai là việc Mã Viện điều tấu Việt Luật có hơn mười điều khác Hán luật. Như thế, Triệu Đà không làm vua nước ta là một điều chắc chắn. Dòng họ Triệu chỉ làm vua nước Nam Việt, tức vùng Quảng Đông, Quảng Tây của Trung Quốc bây giờ. Kết luận này ngày nay phần lớn đã được chấp nhận."

So Trieu Da had control of Quang Dong (where his tomb was found) and Quang Tay, but not Au Lac.

Le Manh That has real artifacts to back up his claims and he is internationally known so his findings aren't considered bogus.

About the word "Luat" - yes indeed, that is why the quote said "Ma Yuan sent up a memorial to the Han emperor" - Ma Yuan was talking in the tongue of the Chinese at that time to the Han Empoeror - hence he used the word "Luat" - those are the words of Ma Yuan, not a Viet person so the utalization of "Luat" makes sense.

Not to notice that Buddhism was flourish after Vietnam was independent, during the ly era.

Nope - the link explains more in the footnotes. Buddhism always prevailent in VN, but historians didn't have enough resources and skill to extract those facts back then. - IT IS IN THE FOOTNOTES TO THE LINK I POSTED

Also if this is right, Quang Trung has no legitimate reasons to bac tien (not that he has many either)

[vn1234]

Huh? bac tien? I don't know what your talking about without the accent marks?

[Johannjs]

History... Click on the image

(IMG:http://www.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/~duc/sach/dvsktt/dvsktt.jpg)