Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Did The Chinese Discover America In 1421?
Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Asian Culture > Chinese Chat > Chinese Serious Talk
holamon
For those of you who are lucky enough to live in the US like me, PBS will air a show about it on 07/21/04. Check your local PBS station for the correct air time. In the mean time, below is an article about it.


QUOTE
Did the Chinese Discover America?
New book asserts a different version of history
By Adam Dunn
Special to CNN
Monday, January 13, 2003 Posted: 1:22 PM EST (1822 GMT)

NEW YORK (CNN) -- In his new book, "1421: The Year China Discovered America" (William Morrow), Gavin Menzies claims that a massive Chinese fleet of huge junks and support ships made a two-year circumnavigation of the globe, with extensive exploration of the Americas, nearly a century before Magellan and Columbus.

Needless to say, his assertion has raised an international flurry of debate.

The book has already garnered mixed reviews from the British media, as well as skeptical articles from The New York Times Magazine and Salon.com.

Menzies is unfazed by the reviews. Indeed, even he was surprised at the results of his research, he said in an interview in the New York offices of his American publisher, Morrow.

"It was a complete freak," the author said. Menzies, a former Royal Navy submarine commander, is a soft-spoken and diminutive presence, not at all the obsessive eccentric he's been painted in the press.

While on an anniversary trip to China with his wife, Menzies recalled, he became fascinated with the history of the Great Wall and the Forbidden City, coincidentally completed in 1421. Delving further, Menzies found himself enmeshed in a 10-year research project on the instigators of the two monumental constructions, the Chinese emperor Zhu Di and his nemesis, the Mongol Tamerlane.

Then, while vetting the manuscript (which would have been titled "Two Emperors on Horseback") among historians, Menzies learned of a Portuguese chart, dating from 1424, depicting islands in the Caribbean.

"So here was a Portuguese claim that the whole world had been charted 70 years before Columbus. By whom?" Menzies said. He matter-of-factly presents the answer. "I looked at other charts, and found it was the Chinese. So I abandoned my book, and started this one.

"At the time," he added, "I was really brassed off (angry) about it."

Challenging the consensus
The book draws on Menzie's navigational experience, as well as the findings of a team of experts he assembled to collate and decipher an ever-growing body of multilingual, cartographic, and biological evidence.

As with any epic, "1421" begins with a history lesson. In the year of the title, the emperor Zhu Di ordered the dispatch of a fleet of treasure ships to bring back tribute to his kingdom. According to Menzies' findings, an armada of 800 massive junks set sail in the spring to return delegates who had attended the Forbidden City's inauguration to their nations, and to explore, map and bring tribute from the uncharted reaches beyond the horizons.

Menzies focuses on a fortuitous synchronicity: the presence of a Venetian trader named Niccolo da Conti, who met with the Chinese in the southwest Indian trading hub of Calicut. Da Conti made detailed records of his contact. By Menzies' reckoning, it was da Conti who corroborated the thesis that Chinese junks rounded the Cape of Good Hope, westward bound for points unknown.

Such synchronicity followed Menzies as his research took him deeper along the Chinese trade routes. He retraced the junks' routes around the globe and found shoreside marker stones, carved in a host of Asian languages, all over the world.

Other discoveries convinced him he was on the right track: Sunken junks provided evidence of Chinese-speaking peoples in the pre-Columbian New World (backed, the author claims, by anthropological evidence supported by carbon-dating and DNA analysis). So did the presence of Chinese-introduced species.

"I started off with all sorts of peripheral information," he recalled. "The first Europeans who came to the Americas found Chinese chickens, rice, Chinese porcelain and jade, they found Chinese-speaking peoples. I put all that information on a map, and then I decided to look at the accounts of the first European explorers. ... Now, I put this team together, and they have been translating into English, for the first time, the complete accounts of these European explorers. They found Chinese people everywhere. California, Mexico, Arkansas, Florida and so on. And they found not only Chinese people, but Chinese junks. So I say, that's it. Game, set and match for me." (A complete collation of these accounts can be viewed on the book's website, www.1421.tv.)

Questions
Historians range from dismissive to troubled regarding Menzies' determinations.

"He has not, unfortunately, discovered anything new," Chinese historian Louise Levathes told Salon.com. "What he's done is to present it in a jumbled manner so you have no idea what's going on and what the time frames are."

Other experts were taking a wait-and-see attitude. "There's a definite logic to his analysis," Phillip Sadler, a celestial navigation expert at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, told Space.com.

Menzies presented his findings in a talk at the Royal Geographical Society in London roughly 18 months ago (which an article in Salon.com cites as an affair rented by the author himself). By coincidence, Menzies said, a Chinese TV crew was in London and beamed the talk to China. Reaction was then picked up by CBS and ABC, he said.

"So, by a complete freak of luck, I had a worldwide audience for my talk. This resulted in a torrent of information which helped me enormously," he said. "I got literally thousands of letters asking, did I know about this or that. For instance, a walnut farmer from around Sacramento [California] rang me up and said, 'I've got a Chinese junk in my backyard which predated Columbus, and my family's known about it for 50 years.' It was subsequently investigated and it turns out it is a junk. That's happened all over the world."

Indeed, after giving lectures in China, he was shocked to have his findings corroborated by two Chinese professors who had had no prior contact with him, and whose research provided hard evidence supporting a Chinese-Brazil connection dating from 1511 and earlier. One of the conferences sifted through the additional material.

"The conference was stumped," Menzies said. 'The conference split into three groups, each taking a third of my evidence and trawled through it, and after three days they said, 'If only half of your evidence is true, it's unarguable that China got to the Americas before the Europeans did.' "

At the least, Menzies' work will prompt new research of his findings, whether they're corroborated or debunked. And he's not finished yet, he said -- especially with the response he's gotten to his book, already topping best-seller lists in the UK and U.S.

"I've got a team that does nothing else but analyze this incoming stream," he said.
Jigoku Z
To my understanding, Vikings were the first one that settle in North America. I wouldn't be surprise that China did discover America. But still Columbus was the one that told everyone about it and named America America.
Nam Quoc Son Ha
I thought Leif Erikson first discovered America.
holamon
QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Jun 30 2004, 09:06 PM)
I thought Leif Erikson first discovered America.

I think he discovered Greenland not mainland America.
Rocky Cuong V
It was the Indian amercan. Where ever they come from! i mean really those indian american can't just evolve from american rocks. They gotta migrated tehre from somewhere~!
holamon
QUOTE (Cuong @ Jun 30 2004, 09:08 PM)
It was the Indian amercan. Where ever they come from! i mean really those indian american can't just evolve from american rocks. They gotta migrated tehre from somewhere~!

Well, that's a given fact. But we want to know who first discovered it after the Indians and Eskimos (pure mongloid looking people for those who don't know).
Nam Quoc Son Ha
QUOTE (holamon @ Jun 30 2004, 10:08 PM)
QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Jun 30 2004, 09:06 PM)
I thought Leif Erikson first discovered America.

I think he discovered Greenland not mainland America.

Leif Erikson (11th century, dates unknown)

The second of three sons of Erik the Red, the first European colonizer of Greenland, little is known of Erikson's early years. However, he reputedly sailed from Greenland to Norway in 1000, where he was converted to Christianity by King Olaf I. The following year, Erikson was commissioned by Olaf to promote Christianity to the Greenland settlers.

What happened next remains unclear.
QUOTE
Some think that he sailed off course and landed in North America at a region he called Vinland (possibly Nova Scotia).
However, according to the more reliable Groenlendinga saga, Erikson learned of Vinland from the Icelander Bjarni Herjulfsson, who had been there 14 years earlier. Herjulfsson, driven far off course by a fierce storm between Iceland and Greenland, had reported sighting hilly, heavily forested land far to the west. Herjulfsson, though possibly the first European to see North America, never landed.

The Groenlendinga saga tells that Erikson sailed west in an attempt to prove Herjulfsson's claims. He appears to have followed Herjulfsson's route in reverse, making three landfalls. The first of these he named Helluland, or Flat-Stone Land, now generally regarded as having been Labrador. The second was Markland, or Wood Land, possibly Newfoundland. The exact location of the third, which was named Vinland, could have been as far north as northern Newfoundland or as far south as Cape Cod. What remains clear, however, is that he set foot in America some 500 years before Christopher Columbus.

Erikson and his men spent the winter in Vinland but never returned. It was left to his brother, Thorvald, to make the next voyage to the new-found territory. Subsequent attempts to settle in Vinland were thwarted by antagonism between the Vikings and the native North Americans.

Though many still regard Christopher Columbus as the discoverer of the New World, Erikson's right to this title received the stamp of official approval in America when, in 1964, President Lyndon B. Johnson, backed by a unanimous Congress, proclaimed 9th October to be 'Leif Erikson Day' in commemoration of the first arrival of a European on North American soil.

==================================================

I remember learning "discoverers of the world" in my history class a few years ago and Leif Erikson described to have discovered and named a placed called Vinland (Possibly Nova Scotia as the above suggest).

What ever it is, the only sure thing is that Columbus did discover the true America and named it after Vespucci Amerigo.
Jigoku Z
Well Native American are from Asia...
Made in China
Stupid Columbus didn't know where he was going, He though he was going to East Indies, and he collided with the Carribean islands and named it West Indies. Europeans relied on Chinese maps and compasses to circum navigate the globe.
Bchung
NO!

that book, if anyone read it, its base on a lot of guessing, assuming, hypothesis.

The Native indians discovered it, period.
supernovasp
QUOTE (Jigoku Z @ Jun 30 2004, 10:14 PM)
Well Native American are from Asia...

Well Asian are from Africa, so is white people...
AtlantisStar
This subject really doesn't matter because America will be owned by America even if it is found that some other nation, opposing the Columbus idea. I hope China isn't trying to slip in some special rights if they found out that if they discovered America first.
holamon
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Jun 30 2004, 11:20 PM)
QUOTE (Jigoku Z @ Jun 30 2004, 10:14 PM)
Well Native American are from Asia...

Well Asian are from Africa, so is white people...

Hell the whole continent of Europe is Asia. I don't undertand how they get Europe when Asia and Europe is a single land mass.
AtlantisStar
Cultural Differences. Europeans wanted to feel special.
Hung-gate
Even China's voyage exploration was way ahead eurpoean, there's still no soild evidence to prove that we were first find america. however, that's quite possiable, since anicent chinese never made any marks when they sailed through a place.

QUOTE
Stupid Columbus didn't know where he was going, He though he was going to East Indies, and he collided with the Carribean islands and named it West Indies. Europeans relied on Chinese maps and compasses to circum navigate the globe.


And he's the one respond for called native american indian. embarassedlaugh.gif
Nam Quoc Son Ha
QUOTE (Hung-gate @ Jul 1 2004, 01:24 AM)
Even China's voyage exploration was way ahead eurpoean, there's still no soild evidence to prove that we were first find america. however, that's quite possiable, since anicent chinese never made any marks when they sailed through a place.

QUOTE
Stupid Columbus didn't know where he was going, He though he was going to East Indies, and he collided with the Carribean islands and named it West Indies. Europeans relied on Chinese maps and compasses to circum navigate the globe.


And he's the one respond for called native american indian. embarassedlaugh.gif

What happened to your English? confused.gif
Colordevil
QUOTE (Hung-gate @ Jul 1 2004, 01:24 AM)
Even China's voyage exploration was way ahead eurpoean, there's still no soild evidence to prove that we were first find america. however, that's quite possiable, since anicent chinese never made any marks when they sailed through a place.

QUOTE
Stupid Columbus didn't know where he was going, He though he was going to East Indies, and he collided with the Carribean islands and named it West Indies. Europeans relied on Chinese maps and compasses to circum navigate the globe.


And he's the one respond for called native american indian. embarassedlaugh.gif

Because one of the Ming emperor ordered the return of the crew right after he received the throne. In my opinion, that Ming Emperor was trying to "copy" what the Japanese did, isolating itself so no one would bother them. But he sure did not think it would be just a big deal as what it is today.
barkerintokyo
China was reknown for having a magestic navy or fleet of ships at one point in history. It was used to brag to civilizations around the world about its power. Unfortunately, China also went through its isolationism which caused it to become one of the most uncivilized of the great nations and eventually fell to a communist revolution.

As to the question did the Chinese discover America in 1421, maybe. It is possible. It is probably just the same difficulty to reach California from China as it is to reach the Caribbeans from Europe. Maybe it is easier to reach California because the Pacific Ocean is so calm with respect to the violent Atlantic Ocean.

And in response to a comment about America being named America: America was NOT named America by Columbus. Columbus refused to believe that he had discovered a new land mass until close to his death. The New World got its name from Amerigo Vespucci who traveled after Columbus. Indians were called so because Columbus thought he had reached his final destination of the Indies.
Kulong
The Native-Americans were definitely the first humans to arrive in the Americas.

The Vikings are the first Europeans to "discover" America although they made little to no impact so it wasn't significant.

If it's proven that China's Ming fleets arrived in America before Columbus did, it won't matter much except giving Chinese the same significance (or insignificance) as the Vikings have on "discovering" America.

If it's proven, there will probably be an additional line added to the history of the discovery of America.

"The Vikings were the first to discover America. Then the Chinese arrived in America about a century before Columbus did..."

Then the rest of the chapter will be about Columbus and so on.

However, if Admiral Zheng He's Treasure Fleet really arrived in America, why shouldn't it be added to the human history.
GaleHarold
I agree with Kulong...

Columbus rightfully deserved the credit for "discovering" America. It was after his voyages that a permenant connection exist between the Old World and the New. If the Chinese or the Vikings discovered America...so what.

Nobody knows about it.
PervertBurger
QUOTE
China was reknown for having a magestic navy or fleet of ships at one point in history. It was used to brag to civilizations around the world about its power. Unfortunately, China also went through its isolationism which caused it to become one of the most uncivilized of the great nations and eventually fell to a communist revolution.


Ouch. icon_redface.gif
chosenone22
QUOTE (Kulong @ Jul 1 2004, 05:52 PM)
The Native-Americans were definitely the first humans to arrive in the Americas.

The Vikings are the first Europeans to "discover" America although they made little to no impact so it wasn't significant.

If it's proven that China's Ming fleets arrived in America before Columbus did, it won't matter much except giving Chinese the same significance (or insignificance) as the Vikings have on "discovering" America.

If it's proven, there will probably be an additional line added to the history of the discovery of America.

"The Vikings were the first to discover America. Then the Chinese arrived in America about a century before Columbus did..."

Then the rest of the chapter will be about Columbus and so on.

However, if Admiral Zheng He's Treasure Fleet really arrived in America, why shouldn't it be added to the human history.

The records were burned.
Thanol
QUOTE (chosenone22 @ Jul 23 2004, 04:44 PM)
QUOTE (Kulong @ Jul 1 2004, 05:52 PM)
The Native-Americans were definitely the first humans to arrive in the Americas.

The Vikings are the first Europeans to "discover" America although they made little to no impact so it wasn't significant.

If it's proven that China's Ming fleets arrived in America before Columbus did, it won't matter much except giving Chinese the same significance (or insignificance) as the Vikings have on "discovering" America.

If it's proven, there will probably be an additional line added to the history of the discovery of America.

"The Vikings were the first to discover America.  Then the Chinese arrived in America about a century before Columbus did..."

Then the rest of the chapter will be about Columbus and so on.

However, if Admiral Zheng He's Treasure Fleet really arrived in America, why shouldn't it be added to the human history.

The records were burned.

Not all of them.
angy
when china discovered it they were probably looking exploration and not to settle. The euros settled so it there ya go into the history books. Plus like the japanese china forbidded travelling and trading for hundreds of years.. they prob burned alot of the records about their voyages.


its a historric matter so it matters in the sake of history on whoever discovered what first.
edwardocracy
QUOTE (barkerintokyo @ Jul 1 2004, 04:27 AM)
China was reknown for having a magestic navy or fleet of ships at one point in history. It was used to brag to civilizations around the world about its power. Unfortunately, China also went through its isolationism which caused it to become one of the most uncivilized of the great nations and eventually fell to a communist revolution.

As to the question did the Chinese discover America in 1421, maybe. It is possible. It is probably just the same difficulty to reach California from China as it is to reach the Caribbeans from Europe. Maybe it is easier to reach California because the Pacific Ocean is so calm with respect to the violent Atlantic Ocean.

And in response to a comment about America being named America: America was NOT named America by Columbus. Columbus refused to believe that he had discovered a new land mass until close to his death. The New World got its name from Amerigo Vespucci who traveled after Columbus. Indians were called so because Columbus thought he had reached his final destination of the Indies.

This is true, and a great tragedy in my opinion. If the Ming did not retreat into isolationism and instead used their maritime and technological superiority to explore and expand around the globe, it is possible that today Chinese would be the international language and not English.

Unfortunately, the concept of enterprise and profit-motive, two essentials for exploration & expansion, were considered as social evils by Confucian scholar-officials of the day.
Anzu Mazaki
Its always possible I guess but I don't think anyone will ever know for sure. I saw that on the PBS mag that my mom gets.
canopener
it could be possible that asia got here first. but the native americans that were here was a mix of caucasion and asian.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2010 Invision Power Services, Inc.