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AEROFORCE1
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The dawn at Angkor wat shows her glory by the time she rise ,but there is no clue how she fall

QUOTE
Tuesday, June 8, 2004 Posted: 11:24 AM EDT (1524 GMT) SIEM REAP, Cambodia (AP) -- After resisting Siamese invaders for years, Cambodia's greatest city and civilization -- temple-studded Angkor -- was dealt a death blow with its final sacking in 1431.

Or, so say the history books.

But an international research team now thinks its demise was set much earlier, by something that is the bane of many modern urban societies -- ecological failure and infrastructure breakdown.

Fletcher, a professor at the University of Sydney, theorizes that population pressures and water woes made it harder to trade and communicate. People began migrating south toward the area around what is now Phnom Penh, where subsequent capitals were set up.
The Greater Angkor Project's first goal was to determine how far out Angkor city spread before trying to determine what led to its fall.

They learned the metropolitan area extended far beyond Angkor Thom, the 700-year-old walled city that houses Angkor Wat. Angkor was home to about 750,000 people and covered some 1,000 square kilometers (386 square miles) -- much larger than any other preindustrial development and similar to the shape and size of modern cities, Fletcher said.

"It's like a Los Angeles. It's not like Hong Kong," he said. "Lots and lots of open space, big gaps around the houses, huge freeways, which are the canals in this case."

The city's economy was based on rice, and rice paddies spread along dozens of canals, at least one up to 20 kilometers (12 miles) long. A network of reservoirs, canals and bridges was created to move people and goods and to ensure there was enough water to grow rice.
Angkor engineers even changed the direction that some rivers flowed in what essentially was "a human-built landscape for growing rice," Fletcher said.

The system had three zones: catching water in the north, storage in the center, and dispersal in the south. The engineers also created a manmade river to join two natural ones.

As Angkor's population grew, so did the strains on its intricate water system, the scientists say.
"The more modifications they made, the more problems they ran into, and the harder and harder it became to implement solutions to the problems," said Evans, who uses aerial photos, NASA images and on-the-ground investigations to generate a computer map of the water system.

The growing population also forced people to venture into the nearby Kulen hills to cut down trees for fuel and to clear land for growing rice. That would have resulted in rain runoff carrying sediment down into the canal network, Evans said.

"Anything that happened to that water management system would have had a great deal of consequence for all of the people," he said.

There are signs of apparent breaches and fixes to the water system, although it's hard to tell if they happened during the Angkor era.

"If you think of the freeway and the railway system failing in a modern city -- it's like that," Fletcher said. "It's an infrastructure problem. Everything else might be working fine, but if the infrastructure goes, this thing can't function."


I just browse on the net and found this issue ,I feel abit disagree on it

IPB Image

But the guy from other forum who can read the scrib in this picture said

อฺนก ราชการฺยย (อ่านว่า อะ-หนึก-ราด-ชะ-กาน) Anuk rat cha karn = This is an officer

ภาค ปมญ (อ่านว่า พาก-ปะ-มน) Pak Pa Mon = This is an archer

นา สฺยำ กุกฺ ( อ่านว่า นา-เสียม-กุก) เชงฺ ฌาน ต (อ่านว่า เชง-ชาน-ตะ) Cheng chan ta = This is an cavary

แปลเป็นไทยได้ว่า " นี่คือผู้เป็นราชการ พวกนักยิง ผู้มีฝีเท้าเร็ว แห่งสยามกุก " Na Siem kuk = Of the Siem clans


So how do Khmae claim that the Siam is the one who behind the Angkor wat?
lemongrass
QUOTE(AEROFORCE1 @ Mar 16 2007, 11:05 AM) *

IPB Image
The dawn at Angkor wat shows her glory by the time she rise ,but there is no clue how she fall
I just browse on the net and found this issue ,I feel abit disagree on it

IPB Image

But the guy from other forum who can read the scrib in this picture said

อฺนก ราชการฺยย (อ่านว่า อะ-หนึก-ราด-ชะ-กาน) Anuk rat cha karn = This is an officer

ภาค ปมญ (อ่านว่า พาก-ปะ-มน) Pak Pa Mon = This is an archer

นา สฺยำ กุกฺ ( อ่านว่า นา-เสียม-กุก) เชงฺ ฌาน ต (อ่านว่า เชง-ชาน-ตะ) Cheng chan ta = This is an cavary

แปลเป็นไทยได้ว่า " นี่คือผู้เป็นราชการ พวกนักยิง ผู้มีฝีเท้าเร็ว แห่งสยามกุก " Na Siem kuk = Of the Siem clans
So how do Khmae claim that the Siam is the one who behind the Angkor wat?

Aeroforce Ning,
Could you elaborate what you mean by "So how do Khmae claim that the Siam is the one who behind the AnkorWat?" I don't quite understand what you mean? Please elaborate! By the way, this subject have already been discussed before. However, if you like I will discuss the subject matter with you.
DarkStorm
QUOTE(lemongrass @ Mar 17 2007, 01:18 AM) *

Aeroforce Ning,
Could you elaborate what you mean by "So how do Khmae claim that the Siam is the one who behind the AnkorWat?" I don't quite understand what you mean? Please elaborate! By the way, this subject have already been discussed before. However, if you like I will discuss the subject matter with you.



Lemongrass, leave the topic alone man. Siam’s history books are different from the rest of the world. In their history books Columbus did not discovered America, the Roman were never an empire, there were no world war 1-2, There’s no country in South East Asia named Cambodia, the words written on Angkor Watt wall are Siam written language, Siamese are better than everybody in the world so on so forth.

The minute they were born they were taught that everything belong to them, they are the powerful nation in Asia, everything they read online, newspaper, or any other articles about Cambodia that are not consistent with Siam’s history books are fabrication of lies by other nations. Therefore Siamese will deny everything that written about Cambodia.

“YOU CAN’T TEACH COWS TO BE HOUSE PET”

Mizz_Luv3r
Mung yah pood tung twua eng nah kah! laugh.gif ^

Anyway, I think that Aero is just asking why do Khmer people claim that the Thais destroyed Angkor Wat when the quoted article says that Angkor Wat fell because of water shortages. And he also stated that he didn't agree with the article.

Well, it's all in the past. Rejoice in the future. beerchug.gif

(Translation for what I said above: Don't talk about yourself. icon_wink.gif)
AEROFORCE1
Angkor fall in 1431 by the hand of Siam? We was a new clans on that time we were not that strong enough to have the big war against Khmae.


I think both reason lack of water and war was leads to the fall of the empire
Kambojiya
Angkor fell because Khmers fought with Khmers. Civil War, end of story. Thailand was too weak back then to do anything, but we were seperated in terms of unity, so it was an advantage to the Siamese. There were many factors that led to the downfall of Angkor. Im not suprised that water "could be" one of the factors. There were also invasions and civil war....so it makes sense to move out of the place if there were shortages of water and food and seasonal flooding to climate change.
lemongrass
QUOTE(Mizz_Luv3r @ Mar 17 2007, 06:54 AM) *

Mung yah pood tung twua eng nah kah! laugh.gif ^

Anyway, I think that Aero is just asking why do Khmer people claim that the Thais destroyed Angkor Wat when the quoted article says that Angkor Wat fell because of water shortages. And he also stated that he didn't agree with the article.

Well, it's all in the past. Rejoice in the future. beerchug.gif

(Translation for what I said above: Don't talk about yourself. icon_wink.gif)

There is no need to translate, I understand Thai. biggthumpup.gif

QUOTE(DarkStorm @ Mar 17 2007, 06:44 AM) *

Lemongrass, leave the topic alone man. Siam’s history books are different from the rest of the world. In their history books Columbus did not discovered America, the Roman were never an empire, there were no world war 1-2, There’s no country in South East Asia named Cambodia, the words written on Angkor Watt wall are Siam written language, Siamese are better than everybody in the world so on so forth.

The minute they were born they were taught that everything belong to them, they are the powerful nation in Asia, everything they read online, newspaper, or any other articles about Cambodia that are not consistent with Siam’s history books are fabrication of lies by other nations. Therefore Siamese will deny everything that written about Cambodia.

“YOU CAN’T TEACH COWS TO BE HOUSE PET”

I got your point brother, but we should not be hostile to our neighbors and friends. Those who speak to us with politeness we should be polite toward them. biggthumpup.gif
AEROFORCE1
QUOTE(DarkStorm @ Mar 17 2007, 10:14 PM) *

Lemongrass, leave the topic alone man. Siam’s history books are different from the rest of the world. In their history books Columbus did not discovered America, the Roman were never an empire, there were no world war 1-2, There’s no country in South East Asia named Cambodia, the words written on Angkor Watt wall are Siam written language, Siamese are better than everybody in the world so on so forth.

The minute they were born they were taught that everything belong to them, they are the powerful nation in Asia, everything they read online, newspaper, or any other articles about Cambodia that are not consistent with Siam’s history books are fabrication of lies by other nations. Therefore Siamese will deny everything that written about Cambodia.

“YOU CAN’T TEACH COWS TO BE HOUSE PET”

I wouldnt bother to post here if I want to hear only from the Thai side.
Honously many of the new generation are so anoy on the old one that they try to twisted the history and
teach us to be nationalistic.

QUOTE(Kambojiya @ Mar 18 2007, 03:15 AM) *

Angkor fell because Khmers fought with Khmers. Civil War, end of story. Thailand was too weak back then to do anything, but we were seperated in terms of unity, so it was an advantage to the Siamese. There were many factors that led to the downfall of Angkor. Im not suprised that water "could be" one of the factors. There were also invasions and civil war....so it makes sense to move out of the place if there were shortages of water and food and seasonal flooding to climate change.

That making sense bro
lemongrass
Airforce 1,
Khmer society is like any family or society or it can be even considered as a good soap opera (nang cheavit). Khmer empire is just like any empire; from the Romans, Greeks, the Mongols, British, the Dutch, the Spanish, the French...etc. Society rise and fall and quite too often it was not fell by foreign invaders but from within. The foreign invaders just come over and pick up the pieces after the civil war is over. Khmer people are a very determined bunch of people and allies and we don't give up so easily if we were invaded by outsiders.
Since you wanted to know about our history and how we fell I will try to tell you as much as I can without revealing too much. From my understanding is that at the time you mentioned Siem(Siam) were a vassal state of Khmer Empire just like the Mon, the lao, and any other people who we fail to mention here. As you should know that the royal family of Khmer, Thai, Laos and Viets are related people and therefore they are brothers and sisters or cousins. Thailand (Siam) are more like Khmer than any Thai were lead to believed. To put it straight to you, is that Thailand(Siam) is just an extention of the old Khmer Empire and our civilization. As much as the Thai high societies tried to revisionized as much as they can and tried to erase as much as they can in the Thai people's memory about Khmer achievements and tried to inject as much as they can about how great Thai achievment have been they will always end up mentioning Khmer people.
Whether you believe it or not, Thailand is an identity made out of Khmer,Siem, Mon, Tai, Shan ...etc. Just take a look at the Thai institutions such as Religion, Laws, Language and military, you can see that the old Khmer ways still there. I have never have it so easy learning Thai as much as learning Khmer. They are so similar in every which way that the Khmer, Thai and Lao should be considered as brothers. Ofcourse, as politics would have it is that the Siamese would tried to be different.
For example; Nayok in Khmer would be Neayouk, Rothamonthry is Rothamonthrey, Rach is Reach, Somdith is Somdech, ....I can go on but lets quit there.
I'll talk more to you if you are interested.
Goombaking209
i think its because the impact of buddhism at the time - people did not need to serve a divine king anymore so individuals cared less about the greater good of the kingdom and started to seek spiritual self enlightment. to make matters worse, a bad drought "brought" a sophisticated and mighty empire to its knees - the siamese dilivered the final blow -- right at the time preah ko was captured embarassedlaugh.gif
AEROFORCE1
QUOTE(lemongrass @ Mar 18 2007, 04:51 PM) *

Airforce 1,
Khmer society is like any family or society or it can be even considered as a good soap opera (nang cheavit). Khmer empire is just like any empire; from the Romans, Greeks, the Mongols, British, the Dutch, the Spanish, the French...etc. Society rise and fall and quite too often it was not fell by foreign invaders but from within. The foreign invaders just come over and pick up the pieces after the civil war is over. Khmer people are a very determined bunch of people and allies and we don't give up so easily if we were invaded by outsiders.

It is now time to realize that the internal factors were really causing the collapse of Angkor, not the external wars.

Then lets forget about the wrong conclusion and move on living together with your neighboring countries. And lets make sure Angkor Wat is giving revenue from tourism to Cambodians (and the grassroot people), not the people from other countries.


QUOTE(lemongrass @ Mar 18 2007, 04:51 PM) *

Since you wanted to know about our history and how we fell I will try to tell you as much as I can without revealing too much. From my understanding is that at the time you mentioned Siem(Siam) were a vassal state of Khmer Empire just like the Mon, the lao, and any other people who we fail to mention here. As you should know that the royal family of Khmer, Thai, Laos and Viets are related people and therefore they are brothers and sisters or cousins. Thailand (Siam) are more like Khmer than any Thai were lead to believed. To put it straight to you, is that Thailand(Siam) is just an extention of the old Khmer Empire and our civilization. As much as the Thai high societies tried to revisionized as much as they can and tried to erase as much as they can in the Thai people's memory about Khmer achievements and tried to inject as much as they can about how great Thai achievment have been they will always end up mentioning Khmer people.
Whether you believe it or not, Thailand is an identity made out of Khmer,Siem, Mon, Tai, Shan ...etc. Just take a look at the Thai institutions such as Religion, Laws, Language and military, you can see that the old Khmer ways still there. I have never have it so easy learning Thai as much as learning Khmer. They are so similar in every which way that the Khmer, Thai and Lao should be considered as brothers. Ofcourse, as politics would have it is that the Siamese would tried to be different.
For example; Nayok in Khmer would be Neayouk, Rothamonthry is Rothamonthrey, Rach is Reach, Somdith is Somdech, ....I can go on but lets quit there.
I'll talk more to you if you are interested.

In my parent generation the goverment tried to boost the nationalistic by made an Thai identity and ignor on other race in Thailand

In the old day of Siam the variety race in the Kingdom got their authority and identity but once we change name to Thailand we try to make up the Thai things to lets people forget on their authority and identity

I think we need to know that different people live in Thailand and we need to respect their culture.


This what the Thai goverment done in the old day thumbsdown.gif
QUOTE(yokie @ Mar 12 2007, 02:46 AM) *

In the pursuit of nationalism, Field Marshal prime minister Plaek Pibulsonggram แปลก พิบูลสงคราม or ป. พิบูลสงคราม หรือ จอมพล ปอ changed the country's name from Siam to Prathet Thai, or Thailand, meaning "land of the free" in 1939. This was seen as a nationalist gesture which implied the unity of all the Tai-speaking peoples, including the Lao and the Shan, but excluding the Chinese. The regime's slogan became "Thailand for the Thai."

On the side note, Phibun was an admirer of Benito Mussolini, and his regime developed some fascist characteristics.

If you wanna read about what exactly happened in Thailand during that time you can check it here
lemongrass
QUOTE(AEROFORCE1 @ Mar 18 2007, 08:39 AM) *

It is now time to realize that the internal factors were really causing the collapse of Angkor, not the external wars.

Then lets forget about the wrong conclusion and move on living together with your neighboring countries. And lets make sure Angkor Wat is giving revenue from tourism to Cambodians (and the grassroot people), not the people from other countries.
In my parent generation the goverment tried to boost the nationalistic by made an Thai identity and ignor on other race in Thailand

In the old day of Siam the variety race in the Kingdom got their authority and identity but once we change name to Thailand we try to make up the Thai things to lets people forget on their authority and identity

I think we need to know that different people live in Thailand and we need to respect their culture.
This what the Thai goverment done in the old day thumbsdown.gif

Airforce 1,
You talk about how your parents' generations who are brain washed by this sense of ultra-nationalism and you are correct because I am from Changvat Sakeao, Thailand(I hope you know where it is), and I am only a few years younger than your parents' generations, at 40 years of age. There are lots of things that Thailand taught Thai people that will make your head spin if you look from an outside view. When I was young, in the 70s, I started primary school in Thailand, and what was taught was good for the most part but some of what was not so good for us, Khmer people. That was during better time in Cambodia, before Pol pot, then in 1972, my father send me to school in Cambodia, from then on I have become a wonderer(refugee). Up until now, I have been to just about every country in Asia. My perspective on life and on our people(yours and mind) are different from most people on AF.
I know you have faced hostilities here on Khmer Chat because of ultra nationalism from both side of the border. However, those who put out the most hostilities are the people who have never been to Thailand or Cambodia, or been anywhere else in this world.
Back on topic;
Water shortage and ecological collapse were one of the contributing factors to ANKOR's fall. Other factors are things, such as arrogance, sloth, vanity, ....etc. The wanting of something without doing anything for it. As sucess get too good to be true then we accepted it as a gift from heaven and forgot that it came from somebody else's efforts. Vanity would take the best of people's character by spending too much on themselves instead of on maintaining the waterways. Other contributor is that Khmer Empire got old, an empire or nation is just like a person because it is a reflections of our characters, so when we get old we become weak and fall.
When I look at Khmer history, I can see what will happen to Thailand(Siem Empire) as well, maybe not soon but it will happened later. As you can see what is happening in Thailand today, people are becoming complacent because of their sucesses. Coup after coup that will lead to a civil war one day and the rebellion in the south is one of the sign that something is not functioning right in Thai society. One good thing is that Khmer and Lao people are not rebelling also, maybe what the Thai government is doing is working so far. Being human we are prone to repeat the mistakes made by others before us because we have flaws in our characters.

Let there be no flames on this thread but earnest discussion among interested people.
AEROFORCE1
QUOTE(lemongrass @ Mar 19 2007, 04:53 AM) *


Back on topic;
Water shortage and ecological collapse were one of the contributing factors to ANKOR's fall. Other factors are things, such as arrogance, sloth, vanity, ....etc. The wanting of something without doing anything for it. As sucess get too good to be true then we accepted it as a gift from heaven and forgot that it came from somebody else's efforts. Vanity would take the best of people's character by spending too much on themselves instead of on maintaining the waterways. Other contributor is that Khmer Empire got old, an empire or nation is just like a person because it is a reflections of our characters, so when we get old we become weak and fall.
When I look at Khmer history, I can see what will happen to Thailand(Siem Empire) as well, maybe not soon but it will happened later. As you can see what is happening in Thailand today, people are becoming complacent because of their sucesses. Coup after coup that will lead to a civil war one day and the rebellion in the south is one of the sign that something is not functioning right in Thai society. One good thing is that Khmer and Lao people are not rebelling also, maybe what the Thai government is doing is working so far. Being human we are prone to repeat the mistakes made by others before us because we have flaws in our characters.

Let there be no flames on this thread but earnest discussion among interested people.


The Angkor story is really the same story Ayudhaya ,she fall because of her wealthThe last Ayudhan king was one of the richest king in Thai history ,but the Ayudhayan court politic was rotten till her core.

Then the burmese send the final blow before every things end.


**Shake head**
Then what we do? We just blame on the Burmese.


And who was the hero why Bangkok?
The new capital were found by the Thai Chinese king. He know what to do and escape from the Ayudhaya and fight back Burma ,where as the King and other officer believe that the god will protect Ayudhaya



QUOTE

The wanting of something without doing anything for it. As sucess get too good to be true then we accepted it as a gift from heaven and forgot that it came from somebody else's efforts. Vanity would take the best of people's character by spending too much on themselves instead of on maintaining the waterways.


Is it because of the similar culture that made the same story happen, and it will happen again. It not because of an enemy it just bcuz of the wealth coruption and laziness
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