as suddenly the thread was close by our beloved mod...I am opening a new thread to carry on the discussion

the last post was from Bhaskara

In response to Bhaskara's last lash out to me:

Hey Bhaskara, who is dissing indonesia here?

Am only dissing the GOVERNMENT. The PEOPLE running the country.

Suharto, Shmuharto, Mega, Gus Dur, SBY whatever.. they are the same. was also sharing my experience as well while talking to some people in indo, orang susah-if you will, their experience.

Indonesia, motherland, beautiful nusantara is my country too. Who died and made you indonesia #1 defender? As if you have more right claiming her than the rest of us? puhleez...

I am not bringing her down, i love my country, just dont like the narrow-minded and corrupt people who are the ones bringing her down...

You dont even know me, dont you dare judge me on whether or not i have given something back to indonesia.

My decision to leave the country and living in another is purely the act of god. Never have i imagined or planned to live anywhere else, as i have prospered with my career and friends while in jakarta.

Stop being so judgmental and act all holier than thou. Shame on you..

In short, suharto sucks, but so does the current government. but at least, once upon a time, food was accessible to all people, education wasnt as expensive, neither was health care. Tolerance (although not to the chinese descent) was also practiced, and now, it no longer exist. Everybody is trying to impose their opinions and beliefs to other people. Some people in this forum are clear examples.

I do hope that Indonesia will bear capable children, who will turn her around and make her once again "macan asia". But as for now, she is crying in shame and sadness.

I'm being judgmental? Do u even know what you're talking about? Oh right, you don't. You're just someone faraway from Nusantara and act all righteous just because you hang out with the whites. U think u r so cool and smarter than your sisters and brothers back home, when what u r is a whitewash.

The tolerance, the security, the order. That was all a facade. It was unreal, because in fact there are a lot of resentments which is unsolvable because the government pressured the society to keep silent. It's like what rico has said in the previous thread, Singaporeans is clean, but not because the people there care about cleanliness, they are just afraid of the severe punishment. When they have the chance to dodge the law, they would litter all around.

It's the same with current Indonesia. Suddenly, people are aware of their rights, people are aware of their own problems. It is a sign of democracy, no matter how rough the form is. True, the means of reconcilements are scarce and the government are just a bunch of greedy people trying to exploit what's left of Nusantara. But it's a process.

I believe that this process will somehow leads to a better Nusantara. It could take ages before our motherland return to her glory, but somehow she needs her capable children (in ur own words) to help her out.

Maybe I was wrong to judge you that you haven't contribute anything. But really, have you? What is it can you do from there, in the comfort of De Lijn and Chocolatier Neuhaus? If your spirit to devote yourself is as strong as your words, shouldn't you be here, be a part of the process, making changes?

Whatever Bhaskara, if it makes you happy calling other people names, so be it. When have I said anything in the forum that I am so cool and smarter than my sisters and brothers back home? You are strange and amusing.



Amen to that. I do hope Indonesia will - as you said - RETURN to her glory (in which you must mean she was glorious before now, kan?) and I have confidence in the future generation of indonesians to make that happen.



I need not prove myself to you, what I do everymonth for the people back home, and what i do for the people backhome coming here needing help. You have no idea how hard i have worked, being an indonesian working among white musicians that would not give me the light of day at first but upon seeing what I can do and create, Indonesia (through me) is no longer foreign to them. I need not tell you or anyone what my husband and I have done and still doing to liaise indonesia-european business, to give a way for indonesian exporters export their products to the eu market.

I devote myself my own way, nobody does it the same, we are not generic. Why should I stay in Indonesia when fellow Indonesians dont treat me with respect while i was there? Here, I make a difference, I educate people around me about my country. Making changes for Indonesia can happen anywhere, not just in Indonesia. Trying to change the world, a country, a city, a municipality is easier if you change yourself first then by example you might inspire the people around you who in turn will inspire other people to do the same and so on, not by putting down people you dont even know.

You are turning this into a personal vendetta against Indonesians living overseas. What a strange thing to do. Rejeki orang sudah diatur yg di atas mas, jangan menilai orang dari dimana dia tinggal, dimana dia kerja, jangan liat rejeki tetangga.

But it's up to you, you're entitled to your opinion about anything, even about me being a whitewash when you dont even know me.. I have been called worse, kok
occupational hazard since i interact with a lot of other indonesians.. so i'm used to running into people like you...
Good thing I also know many other Indonesians who are non-judgmental, nice and able to hold a discussion without insulting others. It restores my faith in Indonesian intelligence.

yes Jakarta i know politic is dirty..but its like sooo common to u to hear a person killed hundred thousands people...its like said' " "come on its politic..nothing to worry"...jeez...those r human being....

every person have an opinion..but yeah i cant stand to hear people defent a murderer..a genocider...imagine if u watched your father killed in front of u, dumped to the river or ur uncle was burnt just because someone told that he's a PKI, and the murderer is still can smile in front of the public, waving hands like a Miss Universe, and making a wedding pary and the souvenir for the guess was an origamy made from money..... it hurts..really2 hurts...

okay, enuff said..its so useless to tell it to people who live in wealthyness....who cannot see a thing deeply...who only wanna see thing from the outside......

i'm askin bout this? does suharto really lose his power?

i don't think so,, who's the guru of corruption here in our country?? i think Suharto fits the answer..

ok, he had some achievements especially in economic area,
world looked indonenesia as one of macan asia, almost advanced country,,
but world didn't know bout the condition under, it's like osteoporosis!
it was only bout time to see the destruction (there was no "medical test" whether this country was healthy or sick)

and now, we can see the effect of Suharto's era, we are suffering from a desease caused by Suharto era,,

if only he hadn't been a president,,ok let say if only he hadn't been corrupt, would the condition be like this??

i just think that, his era is a big mistake of indonesia's story,,
i'm not sure whether he became a president legally or not (we never know what's in supersemar).
suharto is the root of problems we have today,

^true that..true that..yay...finally we have something in common....

peccy, with this, i agree.. it is useless to tell how bad the condition of something is to people who are not experiencing it. exactly my point, that is what i have been trying to say. for orang miskins, the ones who are so poor right now that cannot even buy food for their families, now its worse.
yes they did not experience getting tortured in the suharto era, yes they were not killed nor did their families, but i was merely saying that the condition for a lot of families now is worse than it was 10-15 years ago.

yes, i despise people who think to victimize other people for the sake of politics is a normal thing, but i am not defending a murderer, someone who committed a genocide (did suharto really commit genocide, you really have to back this statement up with some proof here) and by the way, some of my family in Aceh, a long time ago, were victims of the rampage TNI killings, and some were framed, made to look like they are PKI.. but economy wise, they were better off 10-15 years ago compared to now.

peccy, you gotta understand that i am not defending suharto, but am just saying that the current government are still stupid idiots that dont care about the people, they are worse than suharto. why you ask? because they know how bad suharto and his cronies were, how bad corruption was at that time, but still they are still corrupt, they dont care about anyone except themselves, and they are worse because they can ask for more money, for more salary (this is referring to anggota dpr for example) from the government, complaining that they are not compensated enough for their work, but instead they are not doing any work that benefit the nation, the people. THEY ARE NOT LEARNING FROM PAST MISTAKES and what they do is to be apologetic all the time saying things like "well this is the mess that suharto and his cronies left us, its not gonna be easy, it will take some time to clean up" etc... why dont they start to do something about it, stop talking about it, and just start making changes? instead, they are hiding behind this pathetic excuse, while they pile more and more money for themselves, naik jaguar, naik limo di paris sambil belanja bawa seluruh sanak keluarga sampe eyang kakungnya... sementara rakyat makin menderita... apa itu juga tidak jahat?

that is my point, so be cool man.. we are all on the same side here..

jakartan..finally...no anger hehehehe...its so exhausting to have an anger debate....
did suharto do a genocide? yes...the proof? watch GIE movie...google in the Internet....watch shows in Indo TV...watch news in Indo TV...etc..
i feel sorry for those miskins people too...and for our new gov who cant make our country become economically better....
but still, i prefer living in this era tha Suharto era...thats just my opinion...

and dont say they are worse than Suharto...no body worse than people who killed hundred thousands people....that Suharto and his cronies ride Jaguar and have a vacation in Paris while people in some provinces were in hunger too...his children suck our country money when many people were in hunger.....and theyre like a little Boss who did everything what they want....at least SBY's children didnt do that

and i think law enforcement become better too....at least some of corruptors were sent to the jail....not like Suharto era, despite of sending corruptors to the jail, he put artists,writers, politicians,and students to the jail without any "pengadilan".....and did i told u that my friends who work in Tax Dept said that many people who work there r afraid to corrupt since SBY and KPK strict about this corruption thingy?....

but yeah..its not enuff...our country hasnt became economically better....hope the next president can make it....

Agreed, pecco

At least we have our access to democracy now, after all of those years we were oppressed. The mean is there, but unfortunately people who are operating it is not capable of using their heart and mind for the sake of the people.

It's up to righteous people like peccy to take that away from it and start to make changes. It's a baby step, one step at a time. But even the most legendary journeys start with a single step.

You may think I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us.... lanjutin ndiri

I read with interest on all of your post and replies. And its fortunate that you have come to level head with this matter.

There are some good and some bad compared to both eras. To the man on the street, to those hard labourers, to the many nice ojek guys that I have called some of them my dear friends, to the nice hotel staff that I have grown to like them, to many contractors that I have work with them and to all indonesian that I have met during my last 5 years zipping in and out of Indonesia, all of them are saying the same thing that the previous era was better.

They lamented on the price of goods, the exchange rate which has gone down so low, the oil prices which skyrocketed, and everything has gone up ever since the economic crisis but their pay has not. How do they survive they asked? At least they said that things were better and they could put food on their family's table but now its so difficult for them to make ends meet on a daily basis.

I am talking about the lower class who doesnt have the luxury of many you see in TVs. One thing that never and ever will change is the rich, the authourities, the military, the police and the politicians. Things never change for them....they grow richer and more powerful than ever. During the prev era, at least someone is governing them but now, every man is for its own needs and wants...excessively of course.

Some of you lamented on the fact that those who left the country did not see the need to contribute to the country at the hour of needs. But I have to beg to differ that there are some who had no choice but to run due to their live is at stake. Look at what happened to the chinese during the economic crisis!

But some generalise that all chinese are the same....all chinese are rich. Sadly this is untrue. I have the liberty of seeing both worlds and their opinions. I have known my first indonesian girlfriend who is an indonesian chinese. She told everything from the start of the crisis and she has seen in her own very eyes how the locals have butchered the fellow chinese in Trisakti University where she was there during the final year. She had to endure and overcome all the aftermath, the hatred, the discrimination and all the problems that the chinese had to endure. She is a middle class chinese where she worked hard to get where she is now. She comes from a poor family and yes, not all are rich as what some would think of them. I had a very different view of indonesian when I was courting with her.

Then I also had the liberty of having another girlfriend whom we met in Melbourne where she was studying. She is a singaporean born but live her whole life in Jakarta. She is a muslim and she painted a different picture on the chinese where she said, chinese are brutal towards the locals and the rich treated the poor locals like dirt. I came to an understanding that the massacre during the economic crisis was actually inherited from all this. But sadly again, not every chinese are like that and do not blame them for leaving the country where some desperately need to run away from their loving country as they need to find salvation where they could not comprehend anymore in their motherland.

The chinese are better off these days during the post suharto era. Chinese new year are being recognised and the chinese can actual use their chinese surnames in the KTP instead of the local indonesian name.

Things are obvious better to some in this new era. For foreigners like me, rupiah is cheaper and my buying power is more and I am not complaining. But I am sad looking at my friends on the other side who always need to endure the hardship that they have to comprehend. Some of you cannot feel it because you were born in a better condition than others. Sometimes when I splurged my money in Indonesia, a thought comes into the mind that how much of this that I am spending that could feed how many mouth of the poor. That is whenever I meet those who really need help, I never think twice and I will give whatever I have in my pocket. At least I satisfy myself that I have contributed something and I have advocated as humanely as possible to the people who needed my help.

In my work, things are always a headache when I deal with authorities. Money is never enough for them and things can worst and worst each day. First they will ask for your hand, later your arm, then later they will ask for the sky and the moon. These people think that we foreigner pluck money from the sky.

To lament everything what I have experience and believe, there is no end to this.

Indonesia is actually a rich country but the corruption culture has killed the nation. The present govt though has done something but it is still not enough and sometimes they are also trapped in their evil side in them to capitalise what others has capitalised. To change the culture of corruption which has become a way of life to many, its impossible. But as bhas has pointed out ....in every journey there is always a first step

Good luck indonesia and I hope everyone will take the first step to change ..... the nation cannot change but you can change and time wil tell if the glory days were to prevail again.

I respect your point of view, rico. Thank you for your concern

Note that when I say "her previous glory", I wasn't talking about Suharto's era, I was actually dreaming of the age of Srivijaya and Majapahit

@Bhaskara: Indonesia didnt exist in the era of sriwijaya and majapahit, but there were a time not so long ago when Indonesia was glorious and no country in the world, not even the US (apalagi Malaysia..) dared to cross our path. We were at the time ruled in dictatorship by none other than the smiling general.

@Peccy: No matter who is in power, were they given the luxury of being in power for decades (e.g Suharto, Mahathir, Marcos) their families and themselves will most likely be tempted to be corrupt. SBY's children are not doing that because he has been in power what, 3 years? give him 20 years and I guarantee things will be similar. It's human nature pec, the moment someone is given power and feels invincible, he/she will start to do things to benefit themselves. It's in our nature to do so, most of human beings anyway. (excluding Gandhi, Mother Teresa and people like that)

@Rico: I know what you are talking about when you said you give whatever is in your pocket to those in need. I feel for those people as well, and feel so fortunate that I am in a better situation enabling me to help them as much as I can. I dont come home as much as I would like to, but I figured rather than spending money every year on plane tickets, I'd rather just send the money to people I know who needs it. so far, I have gone home only once (last year), and that is after almost 6 years living here. The soonest I plan to go home again is in 2009 because living overseas, people do tend to think that you pluck money from the sky, that you are forever surrounded by luxury. Shows how ignorant they are. Living overseas is as hard as living back home if not harder. Here you have to deal with racism and prove yourself twice harder cos you're colored. Back home I can just drop my father's name, my grandfather's name around, or visit my old friends (one of which is a conglomerate owner of a big tv station and a handful of medias) and I wont even have to ask for a job.. it's much easier there.
But I love the challenge here, and I love being able to earn a living based on what I can do and not on who I am. Plus, I bring money inside the country, unlike so many indonesians who love to vacation overseas and spend rupiah out of the country.. (you wont believe how many people vacation to europe every several months and spend billions of rups only for shopping! it's mind-boggling!)

When I was in the states, I met a handful of the so called "rich-brats" who zip around in mustangs and wat not but as I grew closer to them, I find them really bunch of great guys and gals. Most of them says to me, all this luxury that you see is only temporary. Its gonna be the first year only where the parents had purchase this and that for them

But they told me, we have no intention to go back. We are staying put here and we told our parents, 2nd year onwards, we will find the money ourselves. The mustang could come in handy to soften the blow and some 3rd years students that I have met from one of the DC highly reputable universities have already had reputable jobs and they work really hard for it.

I never thought those who are in overseas although students are living in luxury. The discrimination is there even if you are a chinese cuz the more chinese you look, the more likely you will be the target

Back to the indonesian, you should come to orchard road my dear. Throw a stone among the chinese....you will knock one indonesian in a group of 5 chinese. That's how many indonesian in singapore. And you will always see rich indonesian from govt agency busy shopping at boutiques. I cannot understand why the need to buy only highly branded stuff like a S$500 T-shirt....crazy MFs.....they splurge the money on govt's tab

My ex gf works with the Aussie mining company in Manado. She get hoards of govt officials asking for money almost every other month. Juz because it is a gold mining company, they think money is always there for them. This is sad and every now and then, she has to bring the high profile govt officials to Singapore to shop......and she always MAX her card paying for this unscrupulous assholes

Anyway girl...I feel for you and I know how hard life can be. I have been broke and down before and I know the taste of sweetness and bitterness in life.