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jose cuervo
QUOTE
Lawmakers in the United States are pressing Washington to reimpose sanctions on Vietnam.

Congress has criticised Vietnam's crackdown against dissidents, which have reportedly intensified after it entered the World Trade Organisation in January.

The US government has normalised trading relations with its former battlefield enemy and removed it from a dreaded human rights blacklist.

But Ed Royce, a US Republican Party lawmaker, told a Congressional meeting on Hanoi's current anti-dissident campaign he is "appalled by the lack of progress in human rights reforms" in Vietnam.

He said the Bush administration had given an assurance to Congress that Vietnam was serious about polishing its human rights record, "but now we know that it is a total lie and it is important to shake the administration on this issue.

"The disregard for religious freedom, political dissent and other basic human rights continues unabated," Mr Royce said.

Vietnam jailed three activists this week for three to five years for spreading propaganda against the communist state in the first of three dissident trials to be held within a week.

The defendants were members of the banned People's Democratic Party and had communicated online with Vietnamese-American political activist Cong Thanh Do, who was detained and then expelled from Vietnam last September.

In Hanoi, lawyers and pro-democracy activists Nguyen Van Dai and Le Thi Cong Nhan, who were arrested in March, face charges of defaming the state.

Next week dissident lawyer Tran Quoc Hien, 42, is scheduled to face court in Ho Chi Minh City on the same charge and is also accused of disrupting security.

Another Vietnamese attorney, Le Quoc Quan, was arrested in March after returning from a year-long US study on the role of civil society in emerging democracies.

He is charged under a law which could send him to the gallows if convicted.

Rights groups say the current crackdown is the largest in about two decades and believe Hanoi has been emboldened by its apparent "acceptance" by the international community, especially the United States, following its WTO entry.

"Vietnam has betrayed the good intention and trust of the international community," said T. Kumar, the US-based Asia-Pacific advocacy director of human rights watchdog Amnesty International.


http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/s1920717.htm

The overseas anti-communist Vietnamese will be delighted about this news. I have no doubt they are behind this. Why can't they just leave VietNam alone? Let the country progress and prosper. VietNam is not their country anymore, leave it alone. The cowards won't go back to fight the VC, but instead have to use lawmakers from western nations to fight the VC.

asean.asia
When it comes to national security and relation with the US, we'd choose national security. laugh.gif
jimm¥
QUOTE(jose cuervo @ May 13 2007, 07:34 PM) *
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/s1920717.htm

The overseas anti-communist Vietnamese will be delighted about this news. I have no doubt they are behind this. Why can't they just leave VietNam alone? Let the country progress and prosper. VietNam is not their country anymore, leave it alone. The cowards won't go back to fight the VC, but instead have to use lawmakers from western nations to fight the VC.

no doubt whos behind this...they want vietnam to collapse so they can say "seee..i told u!"

"The disregard for religious freedom, political dissent and other basic human rights continues unabated," Mr Royce said ..fcukn clown need to check his calendar laugh.gif
Englanda
Isn't it touching to have the US care for our human rights and freedom? One day they may even pay (broad sense of the word) for Agent Orange damages

They care so much about us that they forget human rights in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay
nfacblade
I think the US completely once gain plays ignorant to Vietnam's culture and history. They should know how divisive Vietnamese people are. They should know that these protesters are misguided in their belief about democracy. But no, they rather embrace a dozen misguided people and punish 84 million Vietnamese who couldn't care less about democracy this or that. We had a long post of the good and bad of democracy. It's too bad that some people just can't let go of their hatred. People forget that the prime reason for Vietnam's economic rise is the political stability. What these protesters do is just the opposite. They would create political instability which would scare foreign investors away. Why the heck can people just drop their political dogmas and just focus on economic developments? I just can't understand the Vietnamese people
GenomVirues
fu-k!! Vietnam cant never be successful with these kind of people. Kill a fu-king VNCH, one by one, and save Vietnam, show your patriotism.

That's not my job though, I prefer living peacefully for the rest of my life watching porn ( I never understand why watching people screwing can be so fascinating). Besides, if something bad is going to happen to me, who's going to look after my Pokemon card collection?
jose cuervo
QUOTE(nfacblade @ May 13 2007, 07:37 AM) *
I think the US completely once gain plays ignorant to Vietnam's culture and history. They should know how divisive Vietnamese people are. They should know that these protesters are misguided in their belief about democracy. But no, they rather embrace a dozen misguided people and punish 84 million Vietnamese who couldn't care less about democracy this or that. We had a long post of the good and bad of democracy. It's too bad that some people just can't let go of their hatred. People forget that the prime reason for Vietnam's economic rise is the political stability. What these protesters do is just the opposite. They would create political instability which would scare foreign investors away. Why the heck can people just drop their political dogmas and just focus on economic developments? I just can't understand the Vietnamese people


It's just the overseas Vietnamese that are divided. The overwhelming majority in VietNam are in favor of the government because of the great economic outlook. Actually scratch that, we don't know about VietNam's economic future now, because of the sabotage by the overseas (VNCH) Vietnamese. Now members of congress are asking for economic sanctions.

The piece of s-hit VNCH loyalists are definitely behind this. It has their foul stench.
nfacblade
QUOTE(jose cuervo @ May 13 2007, 10:18 AM) *
It's just the overseas Vietnamese that are divided. The overwhelming majority in VietNam are in favor of the government because of the great economic outlook. Actually scratch that, we don't know about VietNam's economic future now, because of the sabotage by the overseas (VNCH) Vietnamese. Now members of congress are asking for economic sanctions.

The piece of s-hit VNCH loyalists are definitely behind this. It has their foul stench.

The divisiveness was created by the west and the west now is using it to beat us up. What a great job. People have to start waking up before it's too late for Vietnam. It's sad to hear that Vietnam's rising fortune now might be reversed if the US decided to impose trade sanction again. I plead to every Vietnamese here, there, and everywhere to please put aside your political inclination and try to help Vietnam to develop. Don't try to undermine Vietnam's growth with political dogmas that can create instability. Who cares what government it has, as long as Vietnam is becoming prosperous, we should all cheer.
SIG_P229
Plain and simple

Communism/VC is dying, they deserve to die of a slow and painful dead!. I say launch an assaut on them!. How dare they arrested those innocent people!, somebody need to kick their @$$.






bigb0x
Well, if USA want to reimpose sanctions on vietnam, it is right. It is vietnam´s fault. They deserve that. I mean, who care which gevernment vietnam has, but please NOT communism! Communism will destroy the culture and vietnam, too. I hope, vietnam will open their eyes soon.
ln030921
QUOTE(bigb0x @ May 13 2007, 01:28 PM) *
Well, if USA want to reimpose sanctions on vietnam, it is right. It is vietnam´s fault. They deserve that. I mean, who care which gevernment vietnam has, but please NOT communism! Communism will destroy the culture and vietnam, too. I hope, vietnam will open their eyes soon.

Thats right, what they did is right thing to do! To kill a million(s) of people just to show them whats up! Yea!


...Human rights my @$$, imposing sanctions would just make human rights worse over there. Get real.
ln030921
And plus, the USA wouldn't do it, They had too much of a history of arrogance to go back on their words and actions.

Vietnam is a key Nation to businesses and investors in the US, and around the world. The American Government isn't stupid enough to do such things.
arun
No need to worry because at any moment, there's always a US congressman threatening to introduce a bill imposing economic sanctions on VN. Such a threat is so routine and jaded that no US-based ba que newspapers bother to report anymore. That being said, I disagree with jailing all those dumbasses. If I had my way, I'd send them all to Cambodia and let them claim political asylum there. Putting them in jail is just a waste of good rice and fish sauce.
nfacblade
Vietnam should release all those people and ask the US to accept them. Problem's solved.
GenomVirues
QUOTE(nfacblade @ May 13 2007, 12:59 PM) *
Vietnam should release all those people and ask the US to accept them. Problem's solved.


Bad idea my niggah. This is setting a bad example for the general public, they see this as a free ticket to America. Result, there will be more cases like this.
nfacblade
QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 13 2007, 01:11 PM) *
Bad idea my niggah. This is setting a bad example for the general public, they see this as a free ticket to America. Result, there will be more cases like this.

You should refrain from using the derogatory remark "niggah". On the contrary, it may work, because there would be a surge of "protesters" hoping for free tickets to America. Pretty soon, the US would figure it out and then stop believing in these "protesters".
GenomVirues
QUOTE(nfacblade @ May 13 2007, 02:04 PM) *
You should refrain from using the derogatory remark "niggah".


The word "niggah" is actually cool nowadays, from the streets to the main stream media broadcasting to the masses. I don't know what era are you from but like politic it changes within time.





QUOTE(nfacblade @ May 13 2007, 02:04 PM) *
On the contrary, it may work, because there would be a surge of "protesters" hoping for free tickets to America. Pretty soon, the US would figure it out and then stop believing in these "protesters".



You are playing Russian rouletted with a half loaded revolver, your chances are very slim.

You are willing to gamble, eh? You are indeed a true Vietnamese. beerchug.gif
nfacblade
QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 13 2007, 02:13 PM) *
The word "niggah" is actually cool nowadays, from the streets to the main stream media broadcasting to the masses. I don't know what era are you from but like politic it changes within time.

There is nothing cool or hip about calling people "nig---". You may be hanging out with a wrong crowd. Using language like that can get you in a hot seat, my man.
cdllt
I am not understand why some of your here say that Vietnam's government is very good then your left the country? some of your are living Au, CAN, Eng, UK ... even in USA biggrin.gif
I will support the US Congress Man/Ladies to make law against Vietnamese Communist icon_smile.gif
Placebo
QUOTE(cdllt @ May 13 2007, 07:22 PM) *
I am not understand why some of your here say that Vietnam's government is very good then your left the country? some of your are living Au, CAN, Eng, UK ... even in USA biggrin.gif
I will support the US Congress Man/Ladies to make law against Vietnamese Communist icon_smile.gif


You guys are just minorities in these countries without any political/economical power or influence. You think your voice can be heard by local parties. It is a nonsense. They just laugh at you as second-class people. They may act against Vietnam, but their conspiracy is only for their own benefits. Think about that. Keep your mouth shut and work hard. OK?
AAgurl789
QUOTE(cdllt @ May 13 2007, 07:22 PM) *
I am not understand why some of your here say that Vietnam's government is very good then your left the country? some of your are living Au, CAN, Eng, UK ... even in USA biggrin.gif
I will support the US Congress Man/Ladies to make law against Vietnamese Communist icon_smile.gif



Some ppl left VN for more economic opportunities...and I am not saying that the gov is good or not..but US embargo is not good for the innocent ppl in VN..You're not working against the gov...Gov will continue to be rich...Economic sanctions will only affect the poor people..US embargo back then caused millions of Vietnamese to die and be poorer since they couldn't support themselves when the exports were low..

US embargo is bad for any country. Want proof? look at Cuba...US embargo..people are poor but the gov is still in power and will continue to be in power and they're still living very well BTW..Why the hell do you want this to happen to VN...!

I guess some people just don't get it.... or they just refuse to get it.. icon_neutral.gif
cdllt
QUOTE(AAgurl789 @ May 14 2007, 08:57 AM) *
Some ppl left VN for more economic opportunities...
there you go biggthumpup.gif .... that's also the answer about the current viet Comm .... icon_wink.gif

QUOTE(AAgurl789 @ May 14 2007, 08:57 AM) *
US embargo is bad for any country. Want proof? look at Cuba...US embargo..people are poor but the gov is still in power and will continue to be in power and they're still living very well BTW..Why the hell do you want this to happen to VN...!

The US did not want to do anything with Cuba not because USA can not do it, just because we want Cuban see how the communist country is .... US citizen paid lot of $ for taxes to support military troop to stop Cuban ran away from their goverment everyday .... so what the h3ll proof about Cuba you want to talk more? biggrin.gif

QUOTE(AAgurl789 @ May 14 2007, 08:57 AM) *
..Why the hell do you want this to happen to VN...!

because I am Vietnamese! ... and I want my vietnamese have good living for their life; lot of vietnamese are living in USA and supported lawmaker to make it happen in viet nam and I am one of them icon_smile.gif ...
jimm¥
QUOTE(cdllt @ May 15 2007, 01:03 AM) *
there you go biggthumpup.gif .... that's also the answer about the current viet Comm .... icon_wink.gif
The US did not want to do anything with Cuba not because USA can not do it, just because we want Cuban see how the communist country is .... US citizen paid lot of $ for taxes to support military troop to stop Cuban ran away from their goverment everyday .... so what the h3ll proof about Cuba you want to talk more? biggrin.gif
because I am Vietnamese! ... and I want my vietnamese have good living for their life; lot of vietnamese are living in USA and supported lawmaker to make it happen in viet nam and I am one of them icon_smile.gif ...


ohhh,so the US citizens dont have to pay taxes to fund refugees issues like stopping mexicans and puerto ricans from running away from their democratic country everyday?
people like u just wants communists to be poor,so the people have no choice but seek economic oportunities...using wealth power to pick on small communist countries and then blaming the government for the peoples poverty.Thats oppression.
jose cuervo
Is it just me or the VNCH is getting stupider everyday? They want VietNam to do well and Vietnamese to live a good life so they ask for economic sanctions?

Goddamn I didn't realize there are really some retarded Vietnamese in this world. laugh.gif

jimm¥
QUOTE(jose cuervo @ May 15 2007, 02:03 AM) *
Is it just me or the VNCH is getting stupider everyday? They want VietNam to do well and Vietnamese to live a good life so they ask for economic sanctions?

Goddamn I didn't realize there are really some retarded Vietnamese in this world. laugh.gif


its like expecting ur children to do well in school but dont buy them books shrug.gif
AAgurl789
QUOTE(cdllt @ May 14 2007, 11:03 AM) *
there you go biggthumpup.gif .... that's also the answer about the current viet Comm .... icon_wink.gif
The US did not want to do anything with Cuba not because USA can not do it, just because we want Cuban see how the communist country is .... US citizen paid lot of $ for taxes to support military troop to stop Cuban ran away from their goverment everyday .... so what the h3ll proof about Cuba you want to talk more? biggrin.gif
because I am Vietnamese! ... and I want my vietnamese have good living for their life; lot of vietnamese are living in USA and supported lawmaker to make it happen in viet nam and I am one of them icon_smile.gif ...


You seemed to ignore what I have said and only picking on small points..and cropping up my sentence..about this not affecting the Cuban gov..and it only hurts the Cuban ppl....even without US embargos..VN's gov will still be well off..but the people will suffer. Look at North Korea..people are poor...but does the gov care..they're still RICH? Does the international community care so much? The answer is no. It's either you work to help improve the life of vietnamese in VN or not..instead of promoting hatred of how VN should go poor while you sit here and talk trash about how the gov will change...IT WILL NOT CHANGE cause in the case of Cuba and North Korea's gov..nothing that the US does affects the gov much..only the innocent ppl!

QUOTE(jimm¥ @ May 14 2007, 12:12 PM) *
its like expecting ur children to do well in school but dont buy them books shrug.gif


lol.It's more like instead of buying them books..you tell other booksellers not to sell them books even if they work hard for their money or they have potential..and then you exspect them to just MIRACULOUSLY get better at that subject without the required materials thinking that giving them stress and intimidation will help them accomplish more..frustrastion, desperation, and chaos only allows bad things to happen. (ex. Holocaust) BTW, in history...democracy was created by educated men who first had books to read and work with..
nfacblade
QUOTE(AAgurl789 @ May 14 2007, 01:37 PM) *
BTW, in history...democracy was created by educated men who first had books to read and work with..


Yes, even Thomas Jefferson hated the notion of democracy in the early history of America. Responsible democracy requires a reasonable level of wealth. It's really stupid for someone here to say that they want the people in Vietnam to live better lives but he wants US trade sanction. For one, Vietnam is improving every minutes without all this commotion about "democracy" crap, so why not just leave Vietnam alone. These protesters want the US to punish innocent people because they have a delusional ecstasy with "democracy". When Vietnam will become rich one day, democracy will eventually be there anyway, but right now don't get too hung up on politics when the country is still poor. If you cannot help your motherland, then just leave her alone but don't try to get a foreign nation to beat up on her. Hasn't Vietnam suffered enough already?
forgeCool
QUOTE(nfacblade @ May 14 2007, 06:37 PM) *
Yes, even Thomas Jefferson hated the notion of democracy in the early history of America. Responsible democracy requires a reasonable level of wealth. It's really stupid for someone here to say that they want the people in Vietnam to live better lives but he wants US trade sanction. For one, Vietnam is improving every minutes without all this commotion about "democracy" crap, so why not just leave Vietnam alone. These protesters want the US to punish innocent people because they have a delusional ecstasy with "democracy". When Vietnam will become rich one day, democracy will eventually be there anyway, but right now don't get too hung up on politics when the country is still poor. If you cannot help your motherland, then just leave her alone but don't try to get a foreign nation to beat up on her. Hasn't Vietnam suffered enough already?



Man don't I wish there are more Vietnamese like you out there!!!! dammm.. we need more nfacblades! biggthumpup.gif Good thinking my friend! beerchug.gif
landsknechts
U.S sanction won't cripple us, but U.N will. We have tens of trillion dollar worth of natural resources (most still remains untapped) that will allow us to do trade with any other countries in the world.
supernovasp
won't happen
landsknechts
More reason to U.S to put economic sanction on Vietnam
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070515/4/31uvc.html
nomad
QUOTE(jimm¥ @ May 14 2007, 11:58 AM) *
ohhh,so the US citizens dont have to pay taxes to fund refugees issues like stopping mexicans and puerto ricans from running away from their democratic country everyday?
people like u just wants communists to be poor,so the people have no choice but seek economic oportunities...using wealth power to pick on small communist countries and then blaming the government for the peoples poverty.Thats oppression.
No...That is communist stupidity for you. Russia was not a resource poor land, yet under Soviet communist 'economic' policies, ordinary Russians wait in lines even for low quality toilet paper. But why does Japan, a resource poor country, are so far ahead of others in the same situation? Blaming the communist government is the appropriate choice. Communist countries have always been able to trade with other, but why do ALL of them remained dirt poor compared to capitalist ones? A country's small size is relatively inconsequential to how much wealth it can produce or possess.
GenomVirues
Japan lacks natural resources but has highly skillful/intelligence workers, technology, and capital. Those are the main contribution to economic growth. Skillful workers and technology mean more output and less input, the rate of their economy grows faster. There are many other countries that have been "liberated" by the U.S that does not archive the same success. Japan economy would've been way better if they have won World War 2. They would've expand to mainland China and control the rest of South East Asia, and make every body their b!tches. Japan would've been successful, no matter what. Hands down.


The main weakness of communist is that it does not promote competition and competition is on of the sources of economic growth. Vietnam's economic model is no longer pure communist but a mixture of free market combined with Command and Control. Vietnam Communist party does not practice Command and Control policy, so this has nothing to do with Communist vs Capitalist. It's no longer a war of economic ideology. VNCH only wanted revenge.





41654654684654654654654654x10^6 people are sick of VNCH's bull$hit.
nomad
Real insightful answers here...Not...

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 04:04 AM) *
Japan lacks natural resources but has highly skillful/intelligence workers, technology, and capital.
...And Viet Nam does not?

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 04:04 AM) *
Those are the main contribution to economic growth. Skillful workers and technology mean more output and less input, the rate of their economy grows faster. There are many other countries that have been "liberated" by the U.S that does not archive the same success.
So what? How does that explain the successes of others? That is like pointing out the flaws of the leather in the luxury automobile while you are driving some piece of crap beater made by a communist country.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 04:04 AM) *
Japan economy would've been way better if they have won World War 2. They would've expand to mainland China and control the rest of South East Asia, and make every body their b!tches. Japan would've been successful, no matter what. Hands down.
Purely speculative and largely irrelevant to the discussion.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 04:04 AM) *
The main weakness of communist is that it does not promote competition and competition is on of the sources of economic growth.
Thanks for stating the obvious. It is something that communists have been trying to deny, much to their embarrassment and blood they spilled at the altar of Marxism.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 04:04 AM) *
Vietnam's economic model is no longer pure communist but a mixture of free market combined with Command and Control. Vietnam Communist party does not particle Command and Control policy, so this has nothing to do with Communist vs Capitalist. It's no longer a war of economic ideology. VNCH only wanted revenge.
Yes...We know they are 'economic' idiots.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 04:04 AM) *
41654654684654654654654654x10^6 people are sick of VNCH's bull$hit.
They are even sicker at the 'economic' idiocy of the communists.
jimm¥
QUOTE(nomad @ May 15 2007, 05:21 PM) *
No...That is communist stupidity for you. Russia was not a resource poor land, yet under Soviet communist 'economic' policies, ordinary Russians wait in lines even for low quality toilet paper. But why does Japan, a resource poor country, are so far ahead of others in the same situation? Blaming the communist government is the appropriate choice. Communist countries have always been able to trade with other, but why do ALL of them remained dirt poor compared to capitalist ones? A country's small size is relatively inconsequential to how much wealth it can produce or possess.


wow..they had toilet papers back then? and if the peoples stupid enough to wait in lines for toilet papers,their country would surely break into pieces.
even then both russia and japan were big power houses..
jose cuervo
It's amazing that this guy Nomad shamelessly went from being an wannabe 4 star general to now wannabe expert economist.

He was debating with people that either had an background in economics or extensive knowledge on it and failed miserably.

What next, neurosurgeon?

GenomVirues
QUOTE(nomad @ May 15 2007, 05:29 AM) *
Real insightful answers here...Not...

Purely speculative and largely irrelevant to the discussion.

QUOTE
...And Viet Nam does not?

At the present? Nope Vietnam workers (overall) are no match for the Japaneses, they need training. You can't compare Vn's technology with the Japanese. They simply have better human resources and capitals.

In the past? Hell no, during the French colonial era Viet were in the rubber plantations doing the dirty work. They didn't have time for education or investing in human capital. I mean yes they have jobs but it did not earn VN any wealth all the wealth flow to France.

During the VN war the country was unstable, Viet people cannot be much productive during those time.

QUOTE
So what? How does that explain the successes of others? That is like pointing out the flaws of the leather in the luxury automobile while you are driving some piece of crap beater made by a communist country.


Point is Japan would have been better off without U.S "liberating" it. They were producing their own air plane and other high tech shesh before world war 2.

QUOTE
Purely speculative and largely irrelevant to the discussion.


Purely speculative and largely irrelevant to the discussion, also.

QUOTE
Thanks for stating the obvious. It is something that communists have been trying to deny, much to their embarrassment and blood they spilled at the altar of Marxism.

Yes...We know they are 'economic' idiots.


Point is communist Vn has change.

Politic is fickle it chances within time. Today most of the world has mixed economic model, there is no longer pure capitalist, pure command and control (except N.Korea and Cuba). Vietnam and the majority of the world are on the right track, so let it be.


64654987481354156465x10^6 people still think that VNCH are idiots.

Millions of VNCH dumbasses still believe that economic sanction will help Vietnam and bring down the VCP.
LaiSteve66
^^ You've been reading too much Maddox.
ln030921
QUOTE(jose cuervo @ May 15 2007, 07:36 AM) *
It's amazing that this guy Nomad shamelessly went from being an wannabe 4 star general to now wannabe expert economist.

He was debating with people that either had an background in economics or extensive knowledge on it and failed miserably.

What next, neurosurgeon?

Rocket Scientist.
nomad
QUOTE(jose cuervo @ May 15 2007, 07:36 AM) *
It's amazing that this guy Nomad shamelessly went from being an wannabe 4 star general to now wannabe expert economist.
I 'debated' with an idiot who boldly claimed that it is impossible to move a 125 lbs tube in 'rough' terrain, who got busted for being ignorant of certain literature relating to the subject while claiming to 'prefer' one over the other, and who bailed the discussion.

QUOTE(jose cuervo @ May 15 2007, 07:36 AM) *
He was debating with people that either had an background in economics or extensive knowledge on it and failed miserably.
Please...It was ONE guy who claimed to be an attorney, an economist and an engineer. I am still waiting for his responses. And at least I think for myself, whereas YOU merely parroted the standard communist party lines. Funny how commie lovers like yourself always dodged the issue of economics by saying silly things like 'I do not believe in Soviet (or Maoist) style of communism'. The truth is that one does not have to be a Ph.D. in Economics to see and believe that ALL versions of communism failed miserably. So what other 'style' of communism are there? Show us all just ONE successful long term communist 'economy' where as Marx put it -- From each according to his abilities. To each according to his needs -- basically, a slave to the communist state.

QUOTE(jose cuervo @ May 15 2007, 07:36 AM) *
What next, neurosurgeon?
May be...
nomad
QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 12:17 PM) *
At the present? Nope Vietnam workers (overall) are no match for the Japaneses, they need training. You can't compare Vn's technology with the Japanese. They simply have better human resources and capitals.
And where did I made such a comparison? The point that you missed, oddly enough, is that natural resources (or lack thereof) and the human intellectual capital are not valid reasons for commie lovers in trying to exonerate the idiocy and incompetence of their so-called 'economic' policies. If a natural resource poor island nation like Japan can prosper, what is preventing natural resource rich Viet Nam (or the oil sheikdoms of the Middle East) from being competitive with Japan or South Korea or Taiwan? The answer is -- communism -- Ta daaaa....

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 12:17 PM) *
In the past? Hell no, during the French colonial era Viet were in the rubber plantations doing the dirty work. They didn't have time for education or investing in human capital. I mean yes they have jobs but it did not earn VN any wealth all the wealth flow to France.
Then blame France and colonialism. But don't dodge the issue -- communism.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 12:17 PM) *
During the VN war the country was unstable, Viet people cannot be much productive during those time.
And yet South Viet Nam became an exporting country and was wealthier. The issue? Economic policy, not natural resources or the human intellectual capital, the former communists are incompetent at management, the latter communists suppresses. Viet Nam is poor because of communism, not because she lacks natural resources or the human intellectual capital.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 12:17 PM) *
Point is Japan would have been better off without U.S "liberating" it. They were producing their own air plane and other high tech shesh before world war 2.
Point is you are wrong. The US did not 'liberate' Imperial Japan.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 12:17 PM) *
Point is communist Vn has change.
At the cost of how many lives? How much of the human intellectual capital lost through flight or simply dead at the hands of ignorant but bloodthirsty communists?

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 12:17 PM) *
Politic is fickle it chances within time. Today most of the world has mixed economic model, there is no longer pure capitalist, pure command and control (except N.Korea and Cuba). Vietnam and the majority of the world are on the right track, so let it be.
Thanks again for stating the obvious.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 12:17 PM) *
64654987481354156465x10^6 people still think that VNCH are idiots.
There are communist believers still. So what's your point?

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 12:17 PM) *
Millions of VNCH dumbasses still believe that economic sanction will help Vietnam and bring down the VCP.
The 'VCP' changed one half of the country -- economic system -- economic sanctions will not impoverish Viet Nam, it is too late. But denial of access to the world's largest market -- the US -- can accelerate change in the other half -- the communist government.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 12:17 PM) *
Purely speculative and largely irrelevant to the discussion.
Yes...So far that is what I have seen from you.
blacklight
QUOTE(nomad @ May 15 2007, 03:59 PM) *
And yet South Viet Nam became an exporting country and was wealthier.


Crap.

Japan's Foreign Policy Toward Vietnam 1978-1992/Chapter 1
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Japan's_F...-1992:Chapter_1

"Exports to South Vietnam increased dramatically beginning in 1966-- peaking in 1969 at a level of $223,156,000-- while imports from Vietnam never rose above $7,000,000 until 1972, when levels rose to $30 million: the increase came mostly from timber and fishery products."

And to what other countries do you allege RVN exported to, so that I can check that?

GenomVirues
QUOTE(nomad @ May 15 2007, 02:59 PM) *
And where did I made such a comparison? The point that you missed, oddly enough, is that natural resources (or lack thereof) and the human intellectual capital are not valid reasons for commie lovers in trying to exonerate the idiocy and incompetence of their so-called 'economic' policies. If a natural resource poor island nation like Japan can prosper, what is preventing natural resource rich Viet Nam (or the oil sheikdoms of the Middle East) from being competitive with Japan or South Korea or Taiwan? The answer is -- communism -- Ta daaaa....


There were a lot of prosperous countries in ancient time that does not have democracy. What do you have to say about that?

Nobody is trying to justify communist VN, I'm applauding them for improving.
I doubt that anybody in here care for communist ideology. We only care for a better Vietnam.

Economic growth is mainly from human capital and technology. Hands down.


QUOTE
Then blame France and colonialism. But don't dodge the issue -- communism.


You can't blame the French without their VNCH ally.

QUOTE
And yet South Viet Nam became an exporting country and was wealthier. The issue? Economic policy, not natural resources or the human intellectual capital, the former communists are incompetent at management, the latter communists suppresses.


South VN's wealth came from U.S's donation not result from democracy. North Vietnam was poor because they have to buy weapon from Russia and China, meanwhile the U.S bombed the hell of them and killing their people. Yet, they still strive at those odds.

QUOTE
Viet Nam is poor because of communism, not because she lacks natural resources or the human intellectual capital.


False, Vietnam is poor because of the destruction resources in wars, lacks of technology, and human capitals. Communist only play a small role in VN history.

QUOTE
Point is you are wrong. The US did not 'liberate' Imperial Japan.


Little Boy, Fatman, it was one hell of a "liberation".

QUOTE
At the cost of how many lives? How much of the human intellectual capital lost through flight or simply dead at the hands of ignorant but bloodthirsty communists?


Most of the killing were done by invaders and traitorous Vietnamese who collaborate with them. So whose side are you on?


QUOTE
The 'VCP' changed one half of the country -- economic system -- economic sanctions will not impoverish Viet Nam, it is too late. But denial of access to the world's largest market -- the US -- can accelerate change in the other half -- the communist government.


I doubt that the VCP gives a damn. They're happy being filthy rich and won't chance for anybody. So ecnomic sanction only harm the people and shrinking opportunities for VN. To have democracy or not is for the people of VN to decide but they are to busy trying to make a living so the decision is held at the mercy of the VCP.

We'll see...
1962VW
Does this = No Vietnamese OIL for the USA bawling.gif bawling.gif bawling.gif ????
blacklight
QUOTE(1962VW @ May 15 2007, 06:39 PM) *
Does this = No Vietnamese OIL for the USA bawling.gif bawling.gif bawling.gif ????

Given the state of our oil reserves, we'll be back to importing oil within the next 20 to 30 years. Hopefully by then, we'll be getting our power from nuclear plants, either corn or rice, and wind - assuming that the typhoons don't knock our wind power mills all over the landscape icon_wink.gif
nfacblade
Sounds like San Jose wants to cut off ties. Good ridden. What is the definition of basic human rights? To me, it's having basic needs of life and that is food, shelter, family, and friends. Do you consider basic human rights include such things as political provocation? The government just doesn't drag anybody off the street and put them in jail. The situation of Vietnam is much different than the US. In the US, individuals can criticize the government but nobody that I know think that the US government should be abolished or overthrown. That is not the case in Vietnam when peace is still fragile and tenuous. The war legacy lives on. The West sowed the seeds of hatred among the Vietnamese people and now they are reaping them. They are glad that we are infighting instead of getting along because they know that will keep Vietnam from developing. Vietnam is really a tragic country and it's so disheartening to see constant anti-Vietnam drumbeats.

Here is the article


May 14 - KGO - Strong words from the vice mayor of San Jose, home to one of this country's largest Vietnamese communities. Dave Cortese said the U.S. should sever ties with any country, including Vietnam that does not respect basic human rights.

In response to reports of human rights violations being carried out by the socialist republic of Vietnam, San Jose's vice mayor Dave Cortese has asked Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to suspend trade relations with Vietnam.

Dave Cortese, Vice Mayor of San Jose: "Until they stop violating peoples right to free speech, free association, freedom of religion, we need to send a message, that we're not going to embark a trade with them."

Cortese says normally the city avoids getting involved with international issues, but feels it's necessary since more than 10 percent of San Jose's population is Vietnamese-American.

Statistics from the U.S. Vietnam trade office show, in 2005, Vietnamese merchandise exports to the us was worth $6.5 billion dollars, while the us exported $1.1 billion in goods to Vietnam.

cortese will also ask the city's rules committee to support house resolution 2-43, which calls on the vietnamese government to immediately and unconditionally release prisoners who advocate religious freedom and democracy.

One prisoner of the Vietnamese government for 10 years during the war, says human suffering, and a lack of democracy remains in his homeland.

Tony Trang Do, Association of Former Vietnamese Political Prisoners: "After 30 years in this country we are expecting conditions to change, and through these actions for the last couple of weeks with Father Ly it hasn't. Conditions remain the same."

Many who live and work in the heart of the Vietnamese community of San Jose say they don't want to go on camera because they still fear communism. Many are afraid their shops will be boycotted, or more importantly they may never be allowed to re-enter their homeland.

The-vu Nguyen, San Jose Resident: "If you are identified as anti-communist or someone who is aggressive, your picture, your name appears on the black list that you cannot enter into the country."

Many in the Vietnamese community hope the U.S. government will listen, and favor human rights over economic gains.
Placebo
If they had ever listened, they would not have had abandoned you like rats. Be realistic, our beloved refugees! embarassedlaugh.gif
papabearvn
QUOTE
Sounds like San Jose wants to cut off ties. Good ridden. What is the definition of basic human rights? To me, it\'s having basic needs of life and that is food, shelter, family, and friends. Do you consider basic human rights include such things as political provocation? The government just doesn\'t drag anybody off the street and put them in jail. The situation of Vietnam is much different than the US. In the US, individuals can criticize the government but nobody that I know think that the US government should be abolished or overthrown. That is not the case in Vietnam when peace is still fragile and tenuous. The war legacy lives on. The West sowed the seeds of hatred among the Vietnamese people and now they are reaping them. They are glad that we are infighting instead of getting along because they know that will keep Vietnam from developing. Vietnam is really a tragic country and it\'s so disheartening to see constant anti-Vietnam drumbeats.

Here is the article
May 14 - KGO - Strong words from the vice mayor of San Jose, home to one of this country\'s largest Vietnamese communities. Dave Cortese said the U.S. should sever ties with any country, including Vietnam that does not respect basic human rights.

In response to reports of human rights violations being carried out by the socialist republic of Vietnam, San Jose\'s vice mayor Dave Cortese has asked Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to suspend trade relations with Vietnam.

Dave Cortese, Vice Mayor of San Jose: \"Until they stop violating peoples right to free speech, free association, freedom of religion, we need to send a message, that we\'re not going to embark a trade with them.\"

Cortese says normally the city avoids getting involved with international issues, but feels it\'s necessary since more than 10 percent of San Jose\'s population is Vietnamese-American.

Statistics from the U.S. Vietnam trade office show, in 2005, Vietnamese merchandise exports to the us was worth $6.5 billion dollars, while the us exported $1.1 billion in goods to Vietnam.

cortese will also ask the city\'s rules committee to support house resolution 2-43, which calls on the vietnamese government to immediately and unconditionally release prisoners who advocate religious freedom and democracy.

One prisoner of the Vietnamese government for 10 years during the war, says human suffering, and a lack of democracy remains in his homeland.

Tony Trang Do, Association of Former Vietnamese Political Prisoners: \"After 30 years in this country we are expecting conditions to change, and through these actions for the last couple of weeks with Father Ly it hasn\'t. Conditions remain the same.\"

Many who live and work in the heart of the Vietnamese community of San Jose say they don\'t want to go on camera because they still fear communism. Many are afraid their shops will be boycotted, or more importantly they may never be allowed to re-enter their homeland.

The-vu Nguyen, San Jose Resident: \"If you are identified as anti-communist or someone who is aggressive, your picture, your name appears on the black list that you cannot enter into the country.\"

Many in the Vietnamese community hope the U.S. government will listen, and favor human rights over economic gains.


News media should stop addressing a Christian priest as Father. Father is a loaded word. Audiences are from many backgrounds so it is not right for a person with Buddism or Muslim religion to call a Christian priest as a Father.

For Vietnamese people, Hưng Đạo Vương is addressed as Father & Bà Chúa Liễu Hạnh (Princess Ngọc Hoa or Giáng Tiên) is addressed as Mother.

Tháng Tám giỗ Cha, Tháng Ba giỗ Mẹ.

nomad
QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
There were a lot of prosperous countries in ancient time that does not have democracy. What do you have to say about that?
We are not talking about 'ancient' time, and besides, prosperity is about relativity and must be in comparison against another country, preferably a neighboring one. The issue is not about democracy, even though democracy can be conducive towards an economic system that would make a country more 'prosperous' one than its immediate neighbor, a relative comparison. A communist 'economic' system is a joke.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
Nobody is trying to justify communist VN, I'm applauding them for improving.
And by 'applauding' them are you trying to excuse them for their 'mistakes'? That is not justification, which is to make 'right', or even to make a 'correction'. The inefficiencies of a communist 'economic' system were not secrets. Communist countries produces mostly crap. The communists of Viet Nam were either stupid or blind but more likely both.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
I doubt that anybody in here care for communist ideology. We only care for a better Vietnam.
That is a code phrase for refusing the call communists what they are -- moral criminals.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
Economic growth is mainly from human capital and technology. Hands down.
Not mainly for there has to be a economic model that is conducive for creativity, which comes from the human intellectual capital, and a government that will ensure the sustainability of that economic model for the long term. Communism and communists failed miserably in both regards. So far, not one commie lover here have managed to produce a single communist 'economy' that for the long term, have proven to be competitive with a capitalist one.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
You can't blame the French without their VNCH ally.
Blame away.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
South VN's wealth came from U.S's donation not result from democracy.
Who said anything about 'democracy'? The issue is about an economic model adopted and a national economy based upon that model -- capitalism. As for US support, what do you call Soviet support of its satellites? US support of South Viet Nam does not lessen the incompetencies and stupidities of communists in North Viet Nam and after unification.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
False, Vietnam is poor because of the destruction resources in war, lack of technology, and human capitals. Communist only play a small role in VN history.
You are still wrong. The fact that individual Viets can be creative and prosperous outside the communist regime is proof that the true cause of Viet Nam's abject poverty is communism and communists.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
Little Boy, Fatman, it was one hell of a "liberation".
Show me one credible historian that said WW II against Imperial Japan was one of 'liberation'.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
Most of the killing were done by invaders and traitorous Vietnamese who collaborate with them. So whose side are you on?
Right...So now AFTER unification, 'invaders' came in and did most of the killings.

QUOTE(GenomVirues @ May 15 2007, 06:16 PM) *
I doubt that the VCP gives a damn. They're happy being filthy rich and won't chance for anybody. So ecnomic sanction only harm the people and shrinking opportunities for VN. To have democracy or not is for the people of VN to decide but they are to busy trying to make a living so the decision is held at the mercy of the VCP.
Trade is a privilege, not a right. So far many people have misunderstood the idea -- privilege -- as one of superior to inferior and nothing could be further from the truth. Privilege in this perspective means access. Territorial integrity is respected in all forms. If George Bush or the Pope showed up at my door tomorrow, it is up to me to allow either figure access to my home. Same for you or anyone else. Same idea applies for countries in dealings with each other. The more friendly the greater the access. If the US deny market access to Viet Nam, it does not prevent other countries from allowing Viet Nam access to theirs. In fact, many countries have defied the US in having trade relations with Viet Nam, countries such as Japan and South Korea, and they are US allies. Opportunities exists, only that they would not be as great in generating wealth as with the US market, and that is the chief whining of communists here. Just because I profit only one dollar per deal from Japan or South Korea when I could be pocketing ten dollars with the American market, I am now have been 'harmed' by the American economic embargo.
nomad
QUOTE(blacklight @ May 15 2007, 05:24 PM) *
Crap.

Japan's Foreign Policy Toward Vietnam 1978-1992/Chapter 1
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Japan's_F...-1992:Chapter_1

"Exports to South Vietnam increased dramatically beginning in 1966-- peaking in 1969 at a level of $223,156,000-- while imports from Vietnam never rose above $7,000,000 until 1972, when levels rose to $30 million: the increase came mostly from timber and fishery products."

And to what other countries do you allege RVN exported to, so that I can check that?
Wow...Of all the countries in Asia, only Japan traded with South Viet Nam. You are correct, it is impossible to move a 125 lbs steel tube in 'rough' terrain.
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