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pattiasina
madcool.gif
The Malay ethnic groups are considered to be one of the many Austranesian groups according to anthropolists. Their origins are as follows:

The actual original malay natives known as the Sakis predates from the cretan age , in which according to the Out of Africa Theory, several African native tribes migarted out of Africa and dispersed themselves into the various Malay islands of today and inhibited the densely forested and mountainous terrains. The word sakis was a term used by the later Austranesain migrants in reference to the already settled original native indegenious who had no recored history or language . The trem means savages becasue these ethinc groups were very backward and primitve, surving only by hunting and fishing in the wild and half dressed. Today, they inhibit the Cameron highlands.

The Austronesains who came as the later wave of migrants and colonisers intermarried the local natives. There were:
1.Central mogoloids who poured out of te sino-tibetan buramese border or the west Tibeten turkic nomads
2. The Thai bumis who were the Mani people who settled in Siam
3. Chinese minority tribes from Yuanan such as the Dais of kunming and yis aof Yuanan who settled in North vietnam of tonkin and Annam and Cambodia . They later became the Torajans in sulawesi and Dayaks and Bajaus in East Kalimantan and te Aeta people from the hills into the Phillipines
4. the natives from Kasmir and the Amanda Isalnds who sailed from the Bay of Bengal and poured into the ploylnesain Isalnds, New Zealand and across the Trans-pacific into the Philippines , Kalimantan, sumatra and central Java. They bacame the Bataks and varios tribes of Java.

Malaysain and Singapore Malays such as the Orang luats originted from the Thai period in the Diva Patra Empire before the trun of the first century. Thailand was the mother and the ancester of the Malay races when the first Thai written empire was formed and founded by King Magrai the great who expanded his empire at the Mekong delta basin in today's Changrai. As the Mekong was infested by pirate raid activities, Mangrai the great traced the priates's route down south East Asia into Cambodia, Loas and Indonesia , extending trade and Thai influences over to the rest of the Malay arcehpalgo world southwards and downwards, leaving traces of Thai influnces and trade relations till present day of today's Asian Pacific regional relationships.
In the meantime, the Austranesain groups and the Chinese were highly knowledagle in seafaring navigation, traced an ancient trade route by sea from the middle east , Africa and Europe all the way to the Polynesian pacific and the gulf of Carpenteria in today's north Darwin .
Consequently, the local Thai natives and the malay natives intergrated and intermarried in its very early evolution, as accoroding to the Malay Sejarah.
100 BC circa was the time of the Langasuka Kingdom, when gold was discovered in north Kedah . This was the period refered to as the Golden Chesrone by Poltemy. This legendary kingdom of gold was the bedrock of the Malay Malaysain cradle of civilization for discovery of Gold led to trade wtih the neighbouring region of India, China, Arabia and the Middle east. Mixtures of Arabia, Thai , India and China blened into the Malay races when trade expanded into the Gulf of Siam eastwards of today's Pulau Langkawi. Langkawi has ample archelogocal evidences of sophiscated gold crafts and pottery that tell of this rich ancient civilization of Langasuka. Its commercail ties with neighouring regions established the Asean trading relationships of present day.

As according to the Malay Sejarah, Langasuka was ruled by king Wongaksan who was desecended of King Alexandra. This suggests its origins from the lower Greek Dravidain and indo-Aryan ancestroy of the Malay austranesian groups .
A point worth noting is also that the term Malay according to the Maleyu Sejarah originated from Sri Lanka . The Ramananya which described the monkey -god Hamunan's resuce of King Rama's consort, sita from the demon king Ravina, lived in a city of gold in an island in Sri Lanka. this city of gold was called Malayan , supporting the evidence that Malay culture originated from the riches of India when its nation was rich and powerful in gold and spices.

The Indonesian Malay bumi groups on theother hand originated from the Kutai Kingdom of today's east Kalimantan in today's Tenggrong Melayu state, following the Kashmir and Indo-Aryan migration. It was also accompanied by the spread of Brahman Hinduism from Thailand and Kelantan or Pan Pan in the fourtyh century by trade and the latter migrations spreaded themselves into Sumatra and Central Java. There was also the Mingnangkabau or Bufflao poeple migration into central Java, Boneo and eventaully into Negri Sembelan in Malacca. Their bufflao horn architectres and edifaces still remains as evidences of its migrationary diversity.

Malaysia gained its initial independence from Thailand when the 5 states of Malaya prospered as a result of the gold mines and trade in black pepper and spices such as Mace and cardimons from India and Sri Lanka. Retrospectively, historical precedence of the discovery of any rare and precious valuables, be it coffe in Brazil , The Eureka Stockade and the Lambing falt riots of the Victorian gold rushes , would inevitably inspire and lead to avarice, migrant struggles and settlements, bloodshed and political cum economic soical hiest and mayhems of the day. In short a double two-edged sword syndrome.
The sultans of the five Malayan states were no exception. They were the ruling heads of the states of Kedah, Kelantan , Perlis, Perak and Trengganu which originally were under Thai dominance and belonged to Thailand when Mengri the great empire extended into Malaysia and Singapore . Malaysia and Singpore also originally belonged to Thailand. Their newly found wealth , power and prosperity catalysted and spurred them to independence, resulting in the Kedah blockade . The hegemony of these five states subsequently reduced Thai domince only to the recognistion of its suzeraintiy , paying resepct and tribute to Thailand with gestures of the golden orchids or flowers as their state emblem.
This is why Malaysain PMs such as Dr. Mahatir are presented with golden aritifical flowers as insignia during important state ceremonies.

It was much later in the Malay archepalogo history of the 18 centry that Malaysia and Singapore Malays became influenced regionally by the Johore-Rau islands alliances and the Bugis who colonised Malaysia briefly.
Thus the riches of tis heritage this present day.
Esfandiari
Conceptually, a 'Malay' person should be looked at 2 level: (1) A 'Malay' at a RACE, stock or racial stock level, and (2) A 'Malay' at the ETHNIC level. See Wikipedia explanation at:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_race) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_people)

(1) Malay at the ethnic level

A person can be RACIALLY Malay but still ETHNICALLY not a Malay. But all ethnic Malays ara racially Malays. Confused? Ethnic Malays live mainly in Malaysia, Indonesia Thailand, Singapore and Brunei.

Other ethnic groups within the Malay RACE but definitely not ethnically Malays are Javanese, Sundanese, Bataks, Minangkabaus, Acehnese, Banjarese and Bugis (examples from Indonesia), Tetum, Mambae, Tukudede, Galoli and Kemak (examples from East Timor) and Tagalogs,Cebuano, Ilocano, Bisaya, Hiligaynon and Bikol (examples from Philippines).

Today there are 22 million ethnic Malays living in Malaysia (about 12 milion; 2006 census), Indonesia (about 7 milion; 2000 census), Thailand (about 2 million; 2006 census), Singapore (0.6 million; 2006 census) and Brunei (about 0.25 million; 2006 census).

Malaysia has the largest single group of ethnic Malays. Malaysia and Brunei are the only ethnic Malay states in the world. Ethnically, Indonesia and Philipines are not ethnic Malay states although they are Malay states at the race level.


Ethnic Malays are an ethnic group of the Austronesian peoples, they speak Bahasa Melayu (literally means Malay language), the language which is now the official/national language of Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei and in Indonesia where it is modified and renamed Bahasa Indonesia (literally means Indonesian language)

The Malay people are believed to have originated in Borneo and then expanded outwards into Sumatra and later into the Malay Peninsula. These people were descendants of Austronesian-speakers who migrated from the Philippines and originally from Taiwan. The main foundation of this school of thought lies in the fact that the oldest Malay settlements have been discovered in Sumatra and not in the Malay Peninsula. This suggests an upward - south to north - migratory route.

The word "Malay" was adopted into English via the Dutch word "Malayo", itself from Portuguese "Malaio", which originates from the Malay word "Melayu". According to one popular theory, the word Melayu means "migrating" or "fleeing", which might refer to the high mobility of these people across the region.

(2) Malay at the race, stock and racial stock level

Malay as a race not limited to just ethnic Malays is a concept espoused by westerners (Stamford Raffles and Johann Frederich Blumenbach). Malays as a single race refer to all indigeneous peoples of Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar, Brunei, Singapore and East Timor. All indigeneous ethnic groups of these countries, Malays and otherwise, are al Malays racially. So, Javanese, Bataks, Bugis, Tetum, Mumbae, Bisaya, cebuano, Merina, Betsileo (Madagascar) .. and least but not least, ethnic Malaysa themselves are all MALAYS.

This means over 90% of people of Philippines and Indonesia are Malays, about 60% in Malaysia, about 70% in Brunei.

At racial level, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar are all Malay states. Indonesia is correct when it says only 7% of its people are Malays. Philippines is also correct when it says 98% of its people are Malays. They use different levels to define 'Malay'.

In Malaysia. 'Malay' is defined very differently.





KUH
The Thais haven't a strong influence in the Malay World and we are a very mongolid country (like all countries of Indochina excluding Malaysia).

But in Madagascar live many Malay people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar
ZturboZ
What 'bout the region at Pattani and its vicinity ?
I thought that region was a cradle of the Malaysian civilization, no ?
Jc2
Are Taiwanese aborigines part of the 'Malay Race'?
kelantanese
yeah i think
chao_lao
QUOTE(Jc2 @ May 18 2007, 02:08 PM) [snapback]2952698[/snapback]
Are Taiwanese aborigines part of the 'Malay Race'?


taiwan aborgines dna show close affinity to daic populations than to malay on one side, and malay dna show a closer affinity to daic population than to taiwanese aborigines on the other side. malay was just a small tribe splitered from daic in and around southeast coastal china long long ago...

firdausj
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May, 11:16 PM) [snapback]2952233[/snapback]
In Malaysia. 'Malay' is defined very differently.


What is the definition of "Malay" in Malaysia ?
pattiasina
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May 18 2007, 11:16 AM) [snapback]2952233[/snapback]
Conceptually, a 'Malay' person should be looked at 2 level: (1) A 'Malay' at a RACE, stock or racial stock level, and (2) A 'Malay' at the ETHNIC level. See Wikipedia explanation at:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_race) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_people)

(1) Malay at the ethnic level

A person can be RACIALLY Malay but still ETHNICALLY not a Malay. But all ethnic Malays ara racially Malays. Confused? Ethnic Malays live mainly in Malaysia, Indonesia Thailand, Singapore and Brunei.

Other ethnic groups within the Malay RACE but definitely not ethnically Malays are Javanese, Sundanese, Bataks, Minangkabaus, Acehnese, Banjarese and Bugis (examples from Indonesia), Tetum, Mambae, Tukudede, Galoli and Kemak (examples from East Timor) and Tagalogs,Cebuano, Ilocano, Bisaya, Hiligaynon and Bikol (examples from Philippines).

Today there are 22 million ethnic Malays living in Malaysia (about 12 milion; 2006 census), Indonesia (about 7 milion; 2000 census), Thailand (about 2 million; 2006 census), Singapore (0.6 million; 2006 census) and Brunei (about 0.25 million; 2006 census).

Malaysia has the largest single group of ethnic Malays. Malaysia and Brunei are the only ethnic Malay states in the world. Ethnically, Indonesia and Philipines are not ethnic Malay states although they are Malay states at the race level.
Ethnic Malays are an ethnic group of the Austronesian peoples, they speak Bahasa Melayu (literally means Malay language), the language which is now the official/national language of Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei and in Indonesia where it is modified and renamed Bahasa Indonesia (literally means Indonesian language)

The Malay people are believed to have originated in Borneo and then expanded outwards into Sumatra and later into the Malay Peninsula. These people were descendants of Austronesian-speakers who migrated from the Philippines and originally from Taiwan. The main foundation of this school of thought lies in the fact that the oldest Malay settlements have been discovered in Sumatra and not in the Malay Peninsula. This suggests an upward - south to north - migratory route.

The word "Malay" was adopted into English via the Dutch word "Malayo", itself from Portuguese "Malaio", which originates from the Malay word "Melayu". According to one popular theory, the word Melayu means "migrating" or "fleeing", which might refer to the high mobility of these people across the region.

(2) Malay at the race, stock and racial stock level

Malay as a race not limited to just ethnic Malays is a concept espoused by westerners (Stamford Raffles and Johann Frederich Blumenbach). Malays as a single race refer to all indigeneous peoples of Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar, Brunei, Singapore and East Timor. All indigeneous ethnic groups of these countries, Malays and otherwise, are al Malays racially. So, Javanese, Bataks, Bugis, Tetum, Mumbae, Bisaya, cebuano, Merina, Betsileo (Madagascar) .. and least but not least, ethnic Malaysa themselves are all MALAYS.

This means over 90% of people of Philippines and Indonesia are Malays, about 60% in Malaysia, about 70% in Brunei.

At racial level, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar are all Malay states. Indonesia is correct when it says only 7% of its people are Malays. Philippines is also correct when it says 98% of its people are Malays. They use different levels to define 'Malay'.

In Malaysia. 'Malay' is defined very differently.

No, there is no confusion and should not be . It is very correct to say that the Malay race as a race is awestrrnised term in reference to the indegenious people of the austronesain diversity of Malaysia, Thailand, Burma, Indonesia, the Phillipines and the Austranesain world. This also includes Vietnam, Cambodia, Papua NG of Iran Jaya and timor , the pacific islanders and the Austranesain Taiwanese brown skin races . The christain missionaries also coin the native ingenious of these regions of the Malay Archepalago because it was too confusing and interparse for them to differeniate them and the confucion remains till present day. Ethnically, Borneo and Indonesain tribes are not Malays and don't
consider themsleves as such. In fact they might get angry being termed so becasue they possess a higher learned aptitude than the more primitive stocks of Malaysia who were more backward, primitive and not literate without any wrting system.
The Malay Orang Asli or the oriignal proto malays don't fit into this category either . As such, the Seamng, Semois, Junkuns, wongchae , Selatar and Tanemura are still very withdrawn and don't want to embracre progress and development , keeping to a earth-bound and shamatic harmonous life with nature, land and sea . This has been the very cause of great hinderance confronted by the government , not wanting to give way to Timber logging as deforestization will disrupt the natural eco system. It wasformer PM Mahatir's bumiputra inititative which brought them out fairly into the open and to intermarry and intergrate.

pattiasina
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May 18 2007, 11:16 AM) [snapback]2952233[/snapback]
Conceptually, a 'Malay' person should be looked at 2 level: (1) A 'Malay' at a RACE, stock or racial stock level, and (2) A 'Malay' at the ETHNIC level. See Wikipedia explanation at:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_race) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_people)

(1) Malay at the ethnic level

A person can be RACIALLY Malay but still ETHNICALLY not a Malay. But all ethnic Malays ara racially Malays. Confused? Ethnic Malays live mainly in Malaysia, Indonesia Thailand, Singapore and Brunei.

Other ethnic groups within the Malay RACE but definitely not ethnically Malays are Javanese, Sundanese, Bataks, Minangkabaus, Acehnese, Banjarese and Bugis (examples from Indonesia), Tetum, Mambae, Tukudede, Galoli and Kemak (examples from East Timor) and Tagalogs,Cebuano, Ilocano, Bisaya, Hiligaynon and Bikol (examples from Philippines).

Today there are 22 million ethnic Malays living in Malaysia (about 12 milion; 2006 census), Indonesia (about 7 milion; 2000 census), Thailand (about 2 million; 2006 census), Singapore (0.6 million; 2006 census) and Brunei (about 0.25 million; 2006 census).

Malaysia has the largest single group of ethnic Malays. Malaysia and Brunei are the only ethnic Malay states in the world. Ethnically, Indonesia and Philipines are not ethnic Malay states although they are Malay states at the race level.
Ethnic Malays are an ethnic group of the Austronesian peoples, they speak Bahasa Melayu (literally means Malay language), the language which is now the official/national language of Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei and in Indonesia where it is modified and renamed Bahasa Indonesia (literally means Indonesian language)

The Malay people are believed to have originated in Borneo and then expanded outwards into Sumatra and later into the Malay Peninsula. These people were descendants of Austronesian-speakers who migrated from the Philippines and originally from Taiwan. The main foundation of this school of thought lies in the fact that the oldest Malay settlements have been discovered in Sumatra and not in the Malay Peninsula. This suggests an upward - south to north - migratory route.

Yes, this is infac histroically true. As written, the earlier segement of the Malay people did originate from Borneo in the Kutai Kingdom of East Kalimantan Tenggrong Malay kingdom in the 100 BC.

The word "Malay" was adopted into English via the Dutch word "Malayo", itself from Portuguese "Malaio", which originates from the Malay word "Melayu". According to one popular theory, the word Melayu means "migrating" or "fleeing", which might refer to the high mobility of these people across the region.

(2) Malay at the race, stock and racial stock level

Malay as a race not limited to just ethnic Malays is a concept espoused by westerners (Stamford Raffles and Johann Frederich Blumenbach). Malays as a single race refer to all indigeneous peoples of Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar, Brunei, Singapore and East Timor. All indigeneous ethnic groups of these countries, Malays and otherwise, are al Malays racially. So, Javanese, Bataks, Bugis, Tetum, Mumbae, Bisaya, cebuano, Merina, Betsileo (Madagascar) .. and least but not least, ethnic Malaysa themselves are all MALAYS.

This means over 90% of people of Philippines and Indonesia are Malays, about 60% in Malaysia, about 70% in Brunei.

At racial level, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar are all Malay states. Indonesia is correct when it says only 7% of its people are Malays. Philippines is also correct when it says 98% of its people are Malays. They use different levels to define 'Malay'.

In Malaysia. 'Malay' is defined very differently.

pattiasina
QUOTE(KUH @ May 18 2007, 01:19 PM) [snapback]2952435[/snapback]
The Thais haven't a strong influence in the Malay World and we are a very mongolid country (like all countries of Indochina excluding Malaysia).

But in Madagascar live many Malay people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar


Quite true . The Thais were in fact the Mani people as part of the Austranesain migration and the turkic tibetan burmese sino natives central mogoliods who debuted after the ice at the tibetan plateau.
pattiasina
QUOTE(ZturboZ @ May 18 2007, 02:50 PM) [snapback]2952567[/snapback]
What 'bout the region at Pattani and its vicinity ?
I thought that region was a cradle of the Malaysian civilization, no ?


Yes, but Pattani and Pan Pan as part of the Kelantan kingdom emerged in thier role as the Maaly civilisation was much later in the 4 Century by trade. Also, Braham Hinduism which spreaded Sri Lanka to Thailand, Indonesia , Cambodia, Vietnam and Denpasar in the 4 century were of the Gupta empire in north India and the Merayu Kingdoms of south India. These migratory Phenomena gave the Indian dimension to the Malay Heritage.
Kelantan's influence such of Pan Pan and Pattani is most evidence in food and wedding ceremonies ----- the offering of rice cakes and dishes as sacrifical and auspicius food . The most obvious example is the Nasi tumpang or the Pyramid cone -shaped Nasi kuning eaten for luck and porsperity for wedding guests. In Kelantan where it originated, nasi kuning wrapped in conical banana leaves with meat pieces of curried chicken , fish and beef were scared offerign to the gods. The colour of yellow was also made to reflected the auspisce and prestige of gold since the golden Chersone of Langasuka. Many Malay people today don't know of its origins. This dish was subsequently transplanted into Java in relation to volcanic worship and predestiantion of marriage accrding to God's will . The colour of gold in reflection of the prestige of gold was also adopted by India and China by the wearing of yellow garaments for Majestic imperail robes . In these feudal societies, common people were totally forbidden to wear anything yellowish.
pattiasina
QUOTE(Jc2 @ May 18 2007, 04:08 PM) [snapback]2952698[/snapback]
Are Taiwanese aborigines part of the 'Malay Race'?

pattiasina
QUOTE(Jc2 @ May 18 2007, 04:08 PM) [snapback]2952698[/snapback]
Are Taiwanese aborigines part of the 'Malay Race'?


They were part of the Austranesain migration after the ice age but not the actual Malaysain malays. Malaysain Malays and Borneo and Bali came from the Dais and the Yis of Yuanan in China.
Esfandiari
QUOTE(firdausj @ May 19 2007, 05:00 AM) [snapback]2953885[/snapback]
What is the definition of "Malay" in Malaysia ?


In response to Firdausi's question: What is the definition of "Malay" in Malaysia?

There is a joke in Malaysia: When is a Malay a 'Malay'? When he is not a 'non-Malay' ethnic Chinese or Indian!! And an Iban or Kadazan isn't a Malay or a non-Malay either but a 'Bumiputra' just like the Malays which means that ethnic Chinese and Indians are neither Malay nor Bumiputra!! Pretty confusing huh??

Seriously speaking ...a "Malay" in Malaysia is CONSTITUTIONALLY defined as: (1) a person who is a Muslim of the Sunni branch of Islam of the Shafie mazhah (school) of thought, (2) having both or one of the parents as Malays, (3) habitually living according to Malay culture and customs including having Malay as a mother tongue, and (4) parents or ancestors from any part of Malay world but having lived in Malaysia on or before Malaysia day.

So under condition (1), one has to be a Muslim of the Sunni Shafie variety to be a Malay in Malaysia, meaning that Arab Muslims, Indian Muslims or Persian Muslims, for example, can't be Malays because they are not of correct Muslim specification under our Constitution

Under condition (2), either one or both parents must be Malays. So, a a child of mixed Malay-Chinese, mixed Malay-Indian, mixed Malay-Arab, mixed Malay-Siamese marriages, etc, is still a Malay, of course other conditions being satisfied too.

Under condition (3), one is a Malay only if he lives habitually according to what are prescribed as Malay customs, Malay adat istiadat, Malay culture, habitually speak Malay, has Malay as mother tongue, live as a Muslim,etc ... of course, other conditions being satisfied too.

Under conditon (4), people of Malay race from regions that now form Indonesia, Singapore, Thailand, Philippines, etc, are Malays if on or before Malaysia Day (August 31 1965) they or their ancestors lived in Malaysia. So, technically, all Javanese,Bugis,Banjars,Boyan (Bawean), Kerincis,Mandailings, Minangkabaus, southern Thai Malays, Brunei Malays,etc are all Malays if they had been in Malaysia on or before Malaysia Day.... as long as as they are Muslims of Shafie Sunni sect.

But Malaysia is unique .. it is only here that all ethnics of the Malay race willingly and proudly accept the label "Malay" for them regardless of whether they are ethnically Malay, Javanese, Minangkabau, Bugis, etc. In Indonesia, for example, I am not sure if an ethnic Javanese wants to be called a "Malay". Officially, there are no "Javanese" or "Bugis" or "Minang" or "Banjar" or "Boyan" in Malaysia .... for these people, only the label "Malay" is found on all their official documnets.

Of course, people who come from Indonesia or Philippines to Malaysia TODAY are no longer accepted as "Malays" .. they are simply officially labeled as "Indonesians" or "Filipinos" in offical documents ... it is already past Malaysia Day ... so, they are constitutionally not "Malays" in Malaysia.


Interesting facts about some Malaysians:

The first Prime Minister of Malaysia (Tunku Abdul Rahman) was mixed Malay-Siamese (mother was Manjalara, a Siamese princess). The 2nd PM (Tun Abdul Razak) was ethnically Bugis. Ther 3rd PM (Hussein Onn) was mixed Malay-Arab-Turkish. His famous cousin, Ungku Aziz was even more complicated .. mixed Malay-Arab-Turkish-English!! The 4th PM (Mahathir Mohammed) is mixed Malay-Indian (his grandpa came from Kerala, India and married a Malay woman to give birth to his father, Mohammed). The present and 5th PM (Abdullah Badawai) is mixed Malay-Chinese (his grandpa was a Chinese Muslim from Hainan, China who married a Malay woman to give birth to his mother Kailan). Abdullah Badawi's late wife, Endon, was mixed Malay-Japanese (her mother Japanese, father Malay). Musa Hitam, Malaysia's former deputy PM was mixed Malay-Chinese (mother a Chinese). He married a Peruvian woman, so his children mixed Malay-Chinese-Peruviano.

Selangor State current Chief Minister (Khir Toyo bin Toyo) and Johor State current Chief Minister (Abdulah Ghani) are Malays of Javanese ethnicity. The majority of Malays in Negri Sembilan State are ethnic Minangkabaus who still practice Adat Perpatih and their Sultan/Yang Dipertuan Besar descended from Pagarruyung in Sumatra. The Sultans of Selangor and Johor States are Malay Sultans of Bugis ethnicity.

P.Ramlee, Malaysia's famous anak seni (artist) was partly Acehnese (father, Teuku Nyak Puteh, an Acehnese from Aceh) and partly Malay (mother, Che Mah Hussein, a Malay).
Esfandiari
Being a Malaysian Malay myself, I believe the definition of "Malay" in Malaysia is very much influenced by the sociopolitical conditions facing the Malays in Malaysia during the British colonial era.

Faced with a massive influx of immigration to Malaysia by Chinese and Indians from China and India during British colonial period, Malays were nearly reduced to a minority within their own country .... in fact even today, Malays constitute only about 50% of the Malaysian population vis-a-vis 50% ethnic Chinese, Indians and Sab-Sar (Sabah-Sarawak) Bumiputra indigeneous peoples. If Sab-Sar indigeneous people are put together with Malays, Bumiputra comprises about 65% of Malaysia's population. Etnic Malaysian Chinese constitue about 27% and Indians about 8% of our population. These are just rough figures.

Faced with threat of diminution by immigrants from China and India, all indigeneous ethnic groups in Tanah Melayu or Malaya (now Peninsular or West Malaysia) banded themselves together into single group called "MALAY" ... regardless whether they were Malays, Javanese, Banjars, Bugis, Boyan, etc. After all, they all shared many common cultural characteristics, the most important of which are Islam as the shared religion and Bahasa Melayu as the shared lingua franca. The Chinese and the Indians, on the other hand, evolved into opposite group called "NON-MALAY".

So, now we have a "national" Malaysian racial dichotomy of "Malay" and "Non-Malay". This dichotomy later on become sort of institutionalized, having being acceoted as legal official terms by both the British colonial government in Tanah Melayu/Malaya and later on by the government of independent Malaya/Malaysia. The two groups (Malay and Non-Malay) tried their best to co-exist peacefully although tensions did arise from time to time, mostly on political, economic and socila issues. The peak of these interracial tensions culminated with the "May 13 Tragedy" when Malays on one side and Non-Malays on the other side physically went after each other's throats. The latest one, though on small scale, was the "Kampung Medan Issue" between Malays and Indians. But we Malaysian are trying hard to achieve racial harmony.

The British colonialists themselves realized that Malays could be overwhelmed economically and numerically if not prorected. One of the things that they did to protect was to legislate the Malay Reserve Land Act in the 1930s prohibiting Non-Malays from buying up certain category of Malay-owned land. The Act remains till this day. Under this Act, huge parcels of land were categorized as Malay Reserve Land and off-limit to non-Malays. The Kampung Baru district of Kuala Lumpur is another area protected by a Bristish legislation in 1930s to protect Malays from losing land in KL. The Act is called Malay Agriculture Settlement Act and it remains to this day, and is more vigorous in protecting Malay-owned land than the Malay Reserve Land Act.

Anyway, back to issue of "Malay" race ... so,that is what we Malays are in Malaysia, quite disticntly defined from Malays of other Malay states.
firdausj
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May, 10:30 PM) [snapback]2954140[/snapback]
Anyway, back to issue of "Malay" race ... so,that is what we Malays are in Malaysia, quite disticntly defined from Malays of other Malay states.


Thank you Esfandiari for your comprehensive explanation.

Now I can understand, as Indonesian, the "psychology and political" position of Malay people in your country.

I can also understand and acknowledge why your people (also your gov't) are "very-very" proud to your Malay culture.


Esfandiari
QUOTE(firdausj @ May 19 2007, 11:41 PM) [snapback]2955109[/snapback]
Thank you Esfandiari for your comprehensive explanation.

Now I can understand, as Indonesian, the "psychology and political" position of Malay people in your country.

I can also understand and acknowledge why your people (also your gov't) are "very-very" proud to your Malay culture.



Thanks to u too! "Malay" is defined under Article 160 of the Federal Constitution of Malaysia.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_Malay

"[edit] Definition of a Malay
Main article: Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia
The article defines a Malay as a Malaysian citizen born to a Malaysian citizen who professes to be a Muslim, habitually speaks the Malay language, adheres to Malay customs, and is domiciled in Malaysia or Singapore. As a result, Malay citizens who convert out of Islam are no longer considered Malay under the law. Likewise, a non-Malay Malaysian who converts to Islam can claim to be a Malay, provided he meets the other conditions."


Betong
QUOTE(pattiasina @ May 18 2007, 09:57 AM) [snapback]2952089[/snapback]
Malaysain and Singapore Malays such as the Orang luats originted from the Thai period in the Diva Patra Empire before the trun of the first century. Thailand was the mother and the ancester of the Malay races when the first Thai written empire was formed and founded by King Magrai the great who expanded his empire at the Mekong delta basin in today's Changrai. As the Mekong was infested by pirate raid activities, Mangrai the great traced the priates's route down south East Asia into Cambodia, Loas and Indonesia , extending trade and Thai influences over to the rest of the Malay arcehpalgo world southwards and downwards, leaving traces of Thai influnces and trade relations till present day of today's Asian Pacific regional relationships.

Care to explain about this. Did the King Magrai only live about (1239-1317) and his Kingdom was ChiangRai ? and certainly Malay Malaysian culture was started long before that? And do you say that Ayudhya was actually a Malay (Thailand) kingdom by referring that Thailand (or maybe just southern part of Thailand???) was ancestor of Malay races..
kelantanese
Yeah betong is rite... gomo betong gomo...
Betong
Demo tengok dia claim yg ore Melayu asl dari Siam??? Logik ko dok??? Mmg dok logik... Bg kawe ni adalah dahyah utk katakan org Melyu Tani adalah ore Siam sebenarnya dan perjuangan mereka untuk memartabatkan bahasa dan bangsa adalah tidak logik.
pattiasina
QUOTE(Betong @ May 20 2007, 10:26 PM) [snapback]2956804[/snapback]
Care to explain about this. Did the King Magrai only live about (1239-1317) and his Kingdom was ChiangRai ? and certainly Malay Malaysian culture was started long before that? And do you say that Ayudhya was actually a Malay (Thailand) kingdom by referring that Thailand (or maybe just southern part of Thailand???) was ancestor of Malay races..


No, his kingdom was not called Chaingrai. It was only a river tributary sate that expaned outwards into Cambodia, Laos and Indodonesia by trade. In fact King Mangri or Mangri the great was the only wriiten evidence of the Thai Empire since Neolophitc times. The Thai civilisation gave birth to two great Kingdoms - Sukhotai and Ayuthha . As you said, Ayuttha was a Maaly-Saimese Kingodm state empire. It was during thsi empire that Thai Buddhism reached its zeniteh and Theravda Buddhism spreaeded in to Laos and Vietnam. The cyncretism of Brahmah hinduism abd Thai Therevada Buddhism were the first campur religious influence on the Malay culture . this fact is most evident in thatthe Malay royality and political structure is still based on the hindu Brahmah caste system today , even though Malaysia is constitutionally sunni Islam and has not divorced from its animistic syncretic roots.
Ayuttha continued to prosper under the 10 great Kings after Mangri . It was the last king Nagrai or Nari who pursued extenstive trade and foreign diplomacy with its neighboring regions including China and India. After his reign marked the declined of Ayuttyha which suffered twice attacks burmese invasions, only to be re-unified by General King Pya Thaksin . He re-established his capital in Bangkok and changed Siam to Thailand , meaning Free alnd to commenrate his victorious exepedtion and proclaiming himself as the Rama I . His reign was the commencement of the Chakri dynasty and it is still so in present day known as the Rattionkosin period by Ramma 9 and its cabinet.

Menwhile, during the Burmese invasion, remaiins of the royal lineage fled Thailand into Java and formed the Sailender Kingdom . They built the famous East Javese borudurdur being adherent of vijarayan Buddhism and Mahanybna buddhism from tibet, Marked by several stupas after designs of the Thai hindu Braham architecture blended with influenceds from Sri Lanka . consequently, the Borubodur design was neither purely Thai or Indian or Indonesain but a mixtuire . Hence its influences up to today. Thus, the Malays were not Thai nor part of Thailand in a strict geographic sense but merely received Thai influences and belonged intially under Thai domince. Langasuka, Pan Pan and Pattani as early Maaly Kingdoms devoloped sparodically . their links were so close to the extent that the early indigenous intermaried with local Thais natives as according to the Melayu Sejarah. You can get the Melayu Sejarah website and it explains a lot clearer.
kermit_criminal
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May 18 2007, 11:16 AM) [snapback]2952233[/snapback]
Conceptually, a 'Malay' person should be looked at 2 level: (1) A 'Malay' at a RACE, stock or racial stock level, and (2) A 'Malay' at the ETHNIC level. See Wikipedia explanation at:(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_race) and (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_people)

(1) Malay at the ethnic level

A person can be RACIALLY Malay but still ETHNICALLY not a Malay. But all ethnic Malays ara racially Malays. Confused? Ethnic Malays live mainly in Malaysia, Indonesia Thailand, Singapore and Brunei.

Other ethnic groups within the Malay RACE but definitely not ethnically Malays are Javanese, Sundanese, Bataks, Minangkabaus, Acehnese, Banjarese and Bugis (examples from Indonesia), Tetum, Mambae, Tukudede, Galoli and Kemak (examples from East Timor) and Tagalogs,Cebuano, Ilocano, Bisaya, Hiligaynon and Bikol (examples from Philippines).

Today there are 22 million ethnic Malays living in Malaysia (about 12 milion; 2006 census), Indonesia (about 7 milion; 2000 census), Thailand (about 2 million; 2006 census), Singapore (0.6 million; 2006 census) and Brunei (about 0.25 million; 2006 census).

Malaysia has the largest single group of ethnic Malays. Malaysia and Brunei are the only ethnic Malay states in the world. Ethnically, Indonesia and Philipines are not ethnic Malay states although they are Malay states at the race level.
Ethnic Malays are an ethnic group of the Austronesian peoples, they speak Bahasa Melayu (literally means Malay language), the language which is now the official/national language of Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei and in Indonesia where it is modified and renamed Bahasa Indonesia (literally means Indonesian language)

The Malay people are believed to have originated in Borneo and then expanded outwards into Sumatra and later into the Malay Peninsula. These people were descendants of Austronesian-speakers who migrated from the Philippines and originally from Taiwan. The main foundation of this school of thought lies in the fact that the oldest Malay settlements have been discovered in Sumatra and not in the Malay Peninsula. This suggests an upward - south to north - migratory route.

The word "Malay" was adopted into English via the Dutch word "Malayo", itself from Portuguese "Malaio", which originates from the Malay word "Melayu". According to one popular theory, the word Melayu means "migrating" or "fleeing", which might refer to the high mobility of these people across the region.

(2) Malay at the race, stock and racial stock level

Malay as a race not limited to just ethnic Malays is a concept espoused by westerners (Stamford Raffles and Johann Frederich Blumenbach). Malays as a single race refer to all indigeneous peoples of Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar, Brunei, Singapore and East Timor. All indigeneous ethnic groups of these countries, Malays and otherwise, are al Malays racially. So, Javanese, Bataks, Bugis, Tetum, Mumbae, Bisaya, cebuano, Merina, Betsileo (Madagascar) .. and least but not least, ethnic Malaysa themselves are all MALAYS.

This means over 90% of people of Philippines and Indonesia are Malays, about 60% in Malaysia, about 70% in Brunei.

At racial level, Malaysia, Brunei, Indonesia, Philippines, Madagascar are all Malay states. Indonesia is correct when it says only 7% of its people are Malays. Philippines is also correct when it says 98% of its people are Malays. They use different levels to define 'Malay'.

In Malaysia. 'Malay' is defined very differently.


wow thanks for the very informative post, didnt know the term malay had two separate meanings. sort of explains how views of malaysians and other malay(racially) peoples differ in views regarding various malay related subjects
Jc2
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May 19 2007, 10:26 AM) [snapback]2954063[/snapback]
Of course, people who come from Indonesia or Philippines to Malaysia TODAY are no longer accepted as "Malays" .. they are simply officially labeled as "Indonesians" or "Filipinos" in offical documents ... it is already past Malaysia Day ... so, they are constitutionally not "Malays" in Malaysia.


What if the person from Indonesia is a Malay speaking ethnic Malay from Sumatra. Would they still be included under "Indonesians" or "Malays"?
Betong
QUOTE(pattiasina @ May 21 2007, 04:25 AM) [snapback]2957247[/snapback]
No, his kingdom was not called Chaingrai. It was only a river tributary sate that expaned outwards into Cambodia, Laos and Indodonesia by trade. In fact King Mangri or Mangri the great was the only wriiten evidence of the Thai Empire since Neolophitc times. The Thai civilisation gave birth to two great Kingdoms - Sukhotai and Ayuthha . As you said, Ayuttha was a Maaly-Saimese Kingodm state empire. It was during thsi empire that Thai Buddhism reached its zeniteh and Theravda Buddhism spreaeded in to Laos and Vietnam. The cyncretism of Brahmah hinduism abd Thai Therevada Buddhism were the first campur religious influence on the Malay culture . this fact is most evident in thatthe Malay royality and political structure is still based on the hindu Brahmah caste system today , even though Malaysia is constitutionally sunni Islam and has not divorced from its animistic syncretic roots.
Ooo sorry now we talking about Thai unofficial story??? I'm not a historic scolar but AFAIK that we can only trace the present of Thai people started from the first kingdom Sukhotai. And AFAIK that Thai got their Therevada Buddhism through their interaction with Khmer with establish their kingdom in present day Thailand as early as 2nd century??? So I really doubt about your claim that Thai was center for almost everything in SEA's mainland???

QUOTE
Ayuttha continued to prosper under the 10 great Kings after Mangri . It was the last king Nagrai or Nari who pursued extenstive trade and foreign diplomacy with its neighboring regions including China and India. After his reign marked the declined of Ayuttyha which suffered twice attacks burmese invasions, only to be re-unified by General King Pya Thaksin . He re-established his capital in Bangkok and changed Siam to Thailand , meaning Free alnd to commenrate his victorious exepedtion and proclaiming himself as the Rama I . His reign was the commencement of the Chakri dynasty and it is still so in present day known as the Rattionkosin period by Ramma 9 and its cabinet.
but for me I still believe Thailand means "Land of the Thai" just because it was change during the nationalist period??

QUOTE
Menwhile, during the Burmese invasion, remaiins of the royal lineage fled Thailand into Java and formed the Sailender Kingdom . They built the famous East Javese borudurdur being adherent of vijarayan Buddhism and Mahanybna buddhism from tibet, Marked by several stupas after designs of the Thai hindu Braham architecture blended with influenceds from Sri Lanka . consequently, the Borubodur design was neither purely Thai or Indian or Indonesain but a mixtuire . Hence its influences up to today. Thus, the Malays were not Thai nor part of Thailand in a strict geographic sense but merely received Thai influences and belonged intially under Thai domince. Langasuka, Pan Pan and Pattani as early Maaly Kingdoms devoloped sparodically . their links were so close to the extent that the early indigenous intermaried with local Thais natives as according to the Melayu Sejarah. You can get the Melayu Sejarah website and it explains a lot clearer.

Are we talking about the Thai or what here??? Are you claim the Thai was same as Funan who regarded themselves as king of the mountain???? Sorry but you do mess around with official history here and claim everything was Thai??? hahahaha, even you want to claim that everything own by the Khmer people was Thai??? I don't understand that???

Betong
QUOTE(Jc2 @ May 21 2007, 08:14 AM) [snapback]2957445[/snapback]
What if the person from Indonesia is a Malay speaking ethnic Malay from Sumatra. Would they still be included under "Indonesians" or "Malays"?

If he Indonesian by nationality he was Indonesians regarding what happen.
Esfandiari
QUOTE(Betong @ May 20 2007, 10:54 PM) [snapback]2956828[/snapback]
Demo tengok dia claim yg ore Melayu asl dari Siam??? Logik ko dok??? Mmg dok logik... Bg kawe ni adalah dahyah utk katakan org Melyu Tani adalah ore Siam sebenarnya dan perjuangan mereka untuk memartabatkan bahasa dan bangsa adalah tidak logik.



Betul betong .. saya rasa pandangan kamu betul. Mengaku bangsa Melayu berasal dari Siam mungkin satu dakyah untuk menghalalkan penerusan strangulasi Siam ke atas bangsa Melayu Pattani... saya akan respon pd teori dalam thread in berikutnys..
Esfandiari
QUOTE(Jc2 @ May 21 2007, 08:14 AM) [snapback]2957445[/snapback]
What if the person from Indonesia is a Malay speaking ethnic Malay from Sumatra. Would they still be included under "Indonesians" or "Malays"?


I think Betong has answered that question very nicely .... regardless what, an Indonesian who comes to Malaysia TODAY or after August 31, 1963 (the day Malaysia was formed) is simply an "Indonesian" in official Malaysian category, not a "Malay", even if he/she is a Bahasa Melayu-speaking ethnic Malay Muslim from Sumatra.... the Constitution requires that.

singapak2
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May 22 2007, 07:23 AM) [snapback]2959463[/snapback]
I think Betong has answered that question very nicely .... regardless what, an Indonesian who comes to Malaysia TODAY or after August 31, 1963 (the day Malaysia was formed) is simply an "Indonesian" in official Malaysian category, not a "Malay", even if he/she is a Bahasa Melayu-speaking ethnic Malay Muslim from Sumatra.... the Constitution requires that.


That is weird. What abt those from Singapore?
around 80% Singaporean Malay-race people are not of Malay ethnic and are mostly from Indonesia-Javanese, Bugis etc..

Those Singaporean Javanese-ethnic Malay-race, categorised as what when he or she comes to Malaysia after 31 August 1963?
Esfandiari
QUOTE(singapak2 @ May 22 2007, 08:05 AM) [snapback]2959511[/snapback]
That is weird. What abt those from Singapore?
around 80% Singaporean Malay-race people are not of Malay ethnic and are mostly from Indonesia-Javanese, Bugis etc..

Those Singaporean Javanese-ethnic Malay-race, categorised as what when he or she comes to Malaysia after 31 August 1963?


My feelings is that, under Article 160 of Malaysian Constitution, Singaporean Malays may be treated like Indonesians too, i.e., constitutionally they may noy be considered "Malays". The Article below does say that Article 160 no longer applies to Singapore. But you need not worry whether Malaysia condiders you Malays or not. The most important is what does the Singapore government officialy Malays in Singapore? Does the Singapore Constitution group together as "Malays" all theMalay ethnic groups or does it officially classify them individually as "Javanese (Jawa)", "Boyans", "Bugis", etc, etc. I am myself am not familiar with Singapore laws, care to explain?

See below (Copied and pasted from: http://www.answers.com/topic/article-160-o...on-of-malaysia)

Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia
Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia defines various terms used in the Constitution. It has an important impact on Islam in Malaysia and the Malay people due to its definition of a Malay person under clause 2. It took effect after August 31 1957 ("Merdeka Day" or "Independence Day") in West Malaysia, and took effect in Singapore and East Malaysia when they merged with Malaya in 1963. The article no longer applies to Singapore, as it declared independence from Malaysia in 1965; however, it does affect the legal status of Malay Singaporeans when they enter Malaysia.


Definition of a Malay
The article defines a Malay as a Malaysian citizen born to a Malaysian citizen who professes to be a Muslim, habitually speaks the Malay language, adheres to Malay customs, and is domiciled in Malaysia or Singapore. As a result, Malay citizens who convert out of Islam are no longer considered Malay under the law. Hence, the Bumiputra privileges afforded to Malays under Article 153 of the Constitution, the New Economic Policy (NEP), etc. are forfeit for such converts.

Likewise, a non-Malay Malaysian who converts to Islam can lay claim to Bumiputra privileges, provided he meets the other conditions. A higher education textbook conforming to the government Malaysian studies syllabus states: "The non-Malay thought that is when a non-Malay embraces Islam, he is said to masuk Melayu (become a Malay in Malay language)[citation needed]. That person is automatically assumed to be fluent in the Malay language and to be living like a Malay as a result of his close association with the Malays."[1]


Jc2
Are Filipinos and Indonesians considered "bumiputra" in Malaysia?
Esfandiari
QUOTE(Jc2 @ May 22 2007, 09:26 AM) [snapback]2959609[/snapback]
Are Filipinos and Indonesians considered "bumiputra" in Malaysia?



To asnwer your question, please read article below (taken from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumiputra )



Definition
The definition of Bumiputra in Malaysia are based on the Federal Constitution of Malaysia. These definition may be vary in different institution, organization or other government deparments and agencies.

According to the book entitled "Buku Panduan Kemasukan ke Institusi Pengajian Tinggi Awam, Program Pengajian Lepasan SPM/Setaraf Sesi Akademik 2007/2008", by Student Entry Management under Management Department of Higher Education Institution, Malaysia Higher Education Ministry; The definition of Bumiputra are as follow:

Peninsular Malaysia
"If one of the parent are Muslim Malay or Orang Asli as stated in Article 160 (2) Federal Constitution of Malaysia; thus the child is considered as a Bumiputra"
Sabah
"If a father is a Muslim Malay or indigenous native of Sabah as stated in Article 160A (6)(a) Federal Constitution of Malaysia; thus his child is considered as a Bumiputra"
Sarawak
"If both of the parent are indigenous native of Sarawak as stated in Article 160A (6)(b) Federal Constitution of Malaysia; thus their child is considered as a Bumiputra"


So, my feelings are that Indonesians and Filipinos are not Bumiputras.
dalawapo
malaysia did a beautiful thing representing their dusun tribes this year in the miss univeree pagaent. i hope they win!
Betong
QUOTE(singapak2 @ May 22 2007, 08:05 AM) [snapback]2959511[/snapback]
That is weird. What abt those from Singapore?
around 80% Singaporean Malay-race people are not of Malay ethnic and are mostly from Indonesia-Javanese, Bugis etc..

Those Singaporean Javanese-ethnic Malay-race, categorised as what when he or she comes to Malaysia after 31 August 1963?

What weird Singa. Singaporean are Singaporean. Even if he comes before 1963 but due to fact that Singapore are in Malaysia Federation, they also can choose to be Malaysian citizen. You know if you don't want to be Singapore Malay anymore i think you can urge your govt to change it, y'know. In Malaysia we do refer to any Malay or Javanese or bugis or Boyan or Minang or Aceh or ???? as Melayu. And I don't see the urgency for us Malay Malaysians to declare their sub ethnicity like Javanese or Minang or whatever they want cause they already intermarried with its other.
swingdoctor
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May 22 2007, 09:11 AM) [snapback]2959596[/snapback]
My feelings is that, under Article 160 of Malaysian Constitution, Singaporean Malays may be treated like Indonesians too, i.e., constitutionally they may noy be considered "Malays". The Article below does say that Article 160 no longer applies to Singapore. But you need not worry whether Malaysia condiders you Malays or not. The most important is what does the Singapore government officialy Malays in Singapore? Does the Singapore Constitution group together as "Malays" all theMalay ethnic groups or does it officially classify them individually as "Javanese (Jawa)", "Boyans", "Bugis", etc, etc. I am myself am not familiar with Singapore laws, care to explain?

See below (Copied and pasted from: http://www.answers.com/topic/article-160-o...on-of-malaysia)

Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia
Article 160 of the Constitution of Malaysia defines various terms used in the Constitution. It has an important impact on Islam in Malaysia and the Malay people due to its definition of a Malay person under clause 2. It took effect after August 31 1957 ("Merdeka Day" or "Independence Day") in West Malaysia, and took effect in Singapore and East Malaysia when they merged with Malaya in 1963. The article no longer applies to Singapore, as it declared independence from Malaysia in 1965; however, it does affect the legal status of Malay Singaporeans when they enter Malaysia.
Definition of a Malay
The article defines a Malay as a Malaysian citizen born to a Malaysian citizen who professes to be a Muslim, habitually speaks the Malay language, adheres to Malay customs, and is domiciled in Malaysia or Singapore. As a result, Malay citizens who convert out of Islam are no longer considered Malay under the law. Hence, the Bumiputra privileges afforded to Malays under Article 153 of the Constitution, the New Economic Policy (NEP), etc. are forfeit for such converts.

Likewise, a non-Malay Malaysian who converts to Islam can lay claim to Bumiputra privileges, provided he meets the other conditions. A higher education textbook conforming to the government Malaysian studies syllabus states: "The non-Malay thought that is when a non-Malay embraces Islam, he is said to masuk Melayu (become a Malay in Malay language)[citation needed]. That person is automatically assumed to be fluent in the Malay language and to be living like a Malay as a result of his close association with the Malays."[1]

I know of some Singapore malays who have moved to malaysia and been accepted as Bumiputera, I think Tanga also knows some.
malaccan
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ May 23 2007, 04:45 AM) [snapback]2960914[/snapback]
I know of some Singapore malays who have moved to malaysia and been accepted as Bumiputera, I think Tanga also knows some.

I've relatives who are still S'porean citizens but have Msian PR. They're treated as bumiputera. Along the same lines, Malay Singaporean and Bruneian citizens get bumiputera discount. Certainly for the developments around KLCC.

singapak2
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May 22 2007, 09:11 AM) [snapback]2959596[/snapback]
My feelings is that, under Article 160 of Malaysian Constitution, Singaporean Malays may be treated like Indonesians too, i.e., constitutionally they may noy be considered "Malays". The Article below does say that Article 160 no longer applies to Singapore. But you need not worry whether Malaysia condiders you Malays or not. The most important is what does the Singapore government officialy Malays in Singapore? Does the Singapore Constitution group together as "Malays" all theMalay ethnic groups or does it officially classify them individually as "Javanese (Jawa)", "Boyans", "Bugis", etc, etc. I am myself am not familiar with Singapore laws, care to explain?[1]


Javanese, Bugis, Boyanese, Minang etc are all Malay race.

Therefore in Singapore, those people are classified as Malay although in their Identification Card says Javanese etc.

Lots of non-Malays here put themselves as Malay in their IC.
My friend, has Chinese father is "Malay" in IC, and is a Muslim, speaks Malay.
Alot of Arabs, say they are Malay in their IC, and they speak Malay too.

I think in Singapore, one can "choose" any race they want to be. lolx.
dalawapo
why do you need a racial identification cards in malaysia?
Esfandiari
QUOTE(singapak2 @ May 23 2007, 09:19 AM) [snapback]2961542[/snapback]
Javanese, Bugis, Boyanese, Minang etc are all Malay race.

Therefore in Singapore, those people are classified as Malay although in their Identification Card says Javanese etc.

Lots of non-Malays here put themselves as Malay in their IC.
My friend, has Chinese father is "Malay" in IC, and is a Muslim, speaks Malay.
Alot of Arabs, say they are Malay in their IC, and they speak Malay too.

I think in Singapore, one can "choose" any race they want to be. lolx.


Thanks for explanation Singapak. In Malaysia, we have done away with 'sub-ethnic' classification of Jawa, Boyan, Minang, etc. Everbody in Malaysia is a Melayu (Malay) if he/she meets the conditions provided for in Article 160 of Malaysian Constituiton. Besides, there has been so much intermarriages among the sub-ethnics that it really makes no sense anymore to still identify oneself as Melayu, Jawa, Bugis, etc. Also, I have many Malay friends of Jawa or Bugis or other extractions who can't speak Jawa or Bugis anymore! Basically, these guys speak Malay as a mother tongue.
Esfandiari
QUOTE(malaccan @ May 23 2007, 02:21 AM) [snapback]2961254[/snapback]
I've relatives who are still S'porean citizens but have Msian PR. They're treated as bumiputera. Along the same lines, Malay Singaporean and Bruneian citizens get bumiputera discount. Certainly for the developments around KLCC.


I too once met a Sri Lankan Malay residing in Malaysia who has been accorded a PR and a Bumiputra status. Also, I think the Kristangs (Malaccan Portuguese) and ethnic Malaysian Siamese (quite many of these people in Kedah, Kelantan, Perlis and Perak) have officially been categorized by the Malaysian Parliament as Bumiputras, meaning that they are entitled to many special priviliges enjoyed by Malays and other Bumiputras. I do not know if the Chittys of Melaka (pre-European Hindu Indian immigrants to Malacca Sultanate who practice Malay culture but religiously Hindus) are categorized as Bumiputras.

So, I think it is possible for foreign Malays and Malaysia's non-Malay indigeneous people to be Bumiputras though I don't think they will be accorded the status of "Malay" unless they are Muslims.
Esfandiari
Wow!! This thread rocks!! We're supposed to discuss Pattiasina's wider topic of "Origins of the Malay race" but we end up discussing Malaysian Malays!! Didn't realize many people have keen interest in Malays of Malaysia!
Esfandiari
I've read Pattiasina's accounts of the "Origins of the Malay Race". I disagree with most of his accounts, I think his views contain too much heresies, untruths and inaccuracies.... away from what has been unanimously agreed in all of academia and the scientific world.

From his accounts of Malaysia's Orang Asli community, to Malay race migration theory, to origin of the word "Melayu", to Johor-Riau empire.. etc, etc.. I find too many heresies and inaccuracies ....

I certainly don't buy his "Thailand-is-the-ancestor-and-mother-of-you-the-Malay-people" and "The-Thai-king-chased-the-pirates-down-the-Mekong-all-the-way-to-Indonesia-Pacific" theories as basis of origins of the Malay race and Thai influence over the Malay race.

But I am too tired to debate this tonite. I'll respond some other time. Maybe Betong and other can go ahead debating this in the mean time. I'll be back ..

No offense Pattiasina .. just my views!!
bandung
who cares where malays are from. african, india, china, europe, america? maybe all maybe none. what matters is how we're going to make malaysia and indonesia better places to live work and more prosperous and also make malays a more sucessful race. not where they're from. no wonder malaysia/indonesia is so behind other countries. Can malaysia make its own weapons? no. can malaysia produce world class athletes, artists? no. how many malay ringits to the pounds ? 6.75. is malaysia winning steel manufacturing contracts in vietnam? no india is. Is malaysia receiving the spill from chinas economic succes? no vietnam is. these are all more important questions and need some serious brainstroming. something needs to be done before we end up just another phillipines.
kelantanese
malaysia f**k up this era not because the malay race, but all because the f**k up government...
Jc2
QUOTE(bandung @ May 23 2007, 01:50 PM) [snapback]2961794[/snapback]
who cares where malays are from. african, india, china, europe, america? maybe all maybe none. what matters is how we're going to make malaysia and indonesia better places to live work and more prosperous and also make malays a more sucessful race. not where they're from. no wonder malaysia/indonesia is so behind other countries. Can malaysia make its own weapons? no. can malaysia produce world class athletes, artists? no. how many malay ringits to the pounds ? 6.75. is malaysia winning steel manufacturing contracts in vietnam? no india is. Is malaysia receiving the spill from chinas economic succes? no vietnam is. these are all more important questions and need some serious brainstroming. something needs to be done before we end up just another phillipines.


What do you mean by that? The richest country in the region turning into a poor country in 30 years?
Betong
QUOTE(bandung @ May 23 2007, 12:50 PM) [snapback]2961794[/snapback]
who cares where malays are from. african, india, china, europe, america? maybe all maybe none. what matters is how we're going to make malaysia and indonesia better places to live work and more prosperous and also make malays a more sucessful race. not where they're from. no wonder malaysia/indonesia is so behind other countries. Can malaysia make its own weapons? no. can malaysia produce world class athletes, artists? no. how many malay ringits to the pounds ? 6.75. is malaysia winning steel manufacturing contracts in vietnam? no india is. Is malaysia receiving the spill from chinas economic succes? no vietnam is. these are all more important questions and need some serious brainstroming. something needs to be done before we end up just another phillipines.
We need to learn history, uncle Bandung. If we don't somebody will tell us where we come from, what is meaning of name of our races. They already did it today!!! At least we know about history of the places that we're living today!!

Ok lets started with you Bandung !!!! If we wanted to be world class player Bandung need to be world class person first !!! but wait a lot need to be done. "Roman Empires also didn't built in 50 yrs to achieve it glorious day, infact it been built for about 1000 yrs".

No offences for Filipino here, but I do agree what JC2 just said that back then Phillipines was the most advances country in this region but due to their unable leader they are what they are today. But developing country need more than develop world class person. We need countinuity from what last genaration have achieved!!!

QUOTE(Esfandiari @ May 23 2007, 12:40 PM) [snapback]2961777[/snapback]
I've read Pattiasina's accounts of the "Origins of the Malay Race". I disagree with most of his accounts, I think his views contain too much heresies, untruths and inaccuracies.... away from what has been unanimously agreed in all of academia and the scientific world.

From his accounts of Malaysia's Orang Asli community, to Malay race migration theory, to origin of the word "Melayu", to Johor-Riau empire.. etc, etc.. I find too many heresies and inaccuracies ....

I certainly don't buy his "Thailand-is-the-ancestor-and-mother-of-you-the-Malay-people" and "The-Thai-king-chased-the-pirates-down-the-Mekong-all-the-way-to-Indonesia-Pacific" theories as basis of origins of the Malay race and Thai influence over the Malay race.

But I am too tired to debate this tonite. I'll respond some other time. Maybe Betong and other can go ahead debating this in the mean time. I'll be back ..

No offense Pattiasina .. just my views!!

Yeah, he fu-ked up with many fact there!!! Maybe he have good intention or maybe not. But if he have creditable sources we always can disscuss here. But pls not trolling around about Malays, Pattiasina!!!
firdausj
QUOTE(kelantanese @ May, 07:52 AM) [snapback]2962409[/snapback]
malaysia f**k up this era not because the malay race, but all because the f**k up government...


Wakakakak..... laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif So, change it !!!!
Bersama kamu pasti bisa .....
chingoo
Biarkan Si Luncai terjun dengan labu-labu!!! Biarkan !!! Biarkan !!! Biarkan Si Luncai terjun dengan labu-labunya.
singapak2
Be it Malaysian Malay, Indonesian Natives, Singapore Malays, we are all Malay race.
What's important is, we do something really good and can make the Malays proud and the Malay people known in the world for something good.
HangPC2
QUOTE


Disedut dari buku "Berpetualang ke Aceh" karangan Radzi Sapiee.

Rasyid yakin dengan maklumat yang diperolehinya kerana dia sudah mengkaji dan mendapatkan maklumat daripada pelbagai pihak. Ini termasuk pandangan orang tua-tua Melayu yang tidak percayakan teks rasmi sejarah Nusantara, orang-orang yang lebih senang hidup di luar arus pembangunan sekarang sehingga mereka sering dianggap kolot, ketinggalan zaman...
Kata orang-orang ini, apa yang dianggap umum sebagai sejarah rasmi bumi ini sebenarnya tidak lebih daripada kerja Orang Putih untuk menipu orang Melayu hidup-hidup. Kerja orang-orang seperti Stamford Raffles dan Clifford yang mahu menggelapkan sejarah sebenar bangsa Melayu supaya fikiran mereka terus terjajah, terpedaya, terpesona dan terkinja-kinja dengan budaya Barat, supaya hilang jati-diri Melayu yang sebenar.
Misalnya, ada seorang pakcik berumur sekitar 80 tahun tetapi masih tegap mengerjakan kebun sayurnya yang luas di kawasan pergunungan Pahang pernah menyoal Rasyid, apakah itu Melayu, apakah makna bangsa Melayu. Mengapa di Tanah Melayu ini Melayu itu Islam dan Islam itu Melayu. Mengapa perlembagaan negara Malaysia ada menyebut takrif Melayu adalah orang Islam yang bermastautin di negara ini, bercakap dalam bahasa Melayu dan mengamalkan adat-istiadat Melayu...
“Cuba kamu teliti balik muka orang Melayu. Ada yang putih, ada sawo matang, ada yang gelap. Ada muka India, ada muka Cina, muka Arab dengan Mat Saleh pun ada,?orang tua itu memulakan satu polemik.
“Tengok dan cermin diri kamu sendiri,?pakcik itu menuding ke arah anak muda itu. “Kulit putih merah, rambut perang, hidung mancung, mata coklat. Di manakah letak Melayunya? Adakah pada paras rupa??BR>Rasyid terdiam. Teringat zaman kanak-kanaknya di mana dia sering diejek sebagai “Mat Saleh Celup? Rupa macam Orang Putih tapi bukan... Sehingga dia pernah merasa malu malah benci melihat kulitnya yang putih bersih dan rambutnya yang sedikit keperangan. Kalau bersekolah di Kuala Lumpur, di St. John atau Victoria Institution lainlah juga kerana ada ramai Pan-Asian, anak kacukan yang ibu atau bapanya Mat Saleh. Ini di Muar, Johor. Jarang terdapat orang Melayu ‘tulin?dengan rupa-paras begini. Lainlah kalau ada darah Orang Putih, tak pun Arab. Setahu anak muda itu, ayah dan ibunya tidak memiliki darah Mat Saleh walaupun mereka berdua memang berkulit putih cerah.
Semasa di sekolah menengah pula, dia pernah ditegur seorang guru yang mengatakan rambutnya merah seperti rambut Sakai atau rambut orang tak mandi. Sedangkan Tuhan telah menjadikan rupa-parasnya semulajadi begini. Rasyid pernah terasa malu dengan keadaannya terutama kulitnya yang putih kemerahan bersih kerana selalu diejek rakan-rakan sebagai licin macam kulit perempuan... Sehingga dia sengaja membiarkan kulitnya tergores sampai luka-luka apabila bersukan terutama ketika bermain ragbi, supaya dapat parut yang membuktikan ‘kelakian? Nak bagi nampak macho lah konon...
‘Malangnya?kulitnya cepat sembuh dan tetap putih kemerahan bersih. Malah boleh dikatakan tidak ada parut langsung di tubuhnya walaupun dia telah berkali-kali luka kerana perangai lasaknya kecuali sedikit bekas luka yang dalam di tempat tertentu dan suntikan BCG di bahu. Yang eloknya, apabila umurnya meningkat remaja, ramai pula pelajar perempuan yang menunjukkan minat terhadap rupa-paras anak muda ini. Dan yang pelik, satu hari nanti, manusia-manusia yang pernah mengejeknya sebagai Mat Saleh Celup berkulit licin macam perempuan pula yang akan sibuk mencari jalan untuk memutih dan mencantikkan kulit di samping mewarnakan rambut menjadi perang atau lebih terang. Rupa-rupanya ramai orang Melayu yang teringin sangat hendak jadi Mat Saleh. Cuma mereka tidak diberi rupa-paras semulajadi begitu. Kesian...
Selain Pan-Asian, Rasyid juga pernah disalah-anggap sebagai Cina atau Benggali. Seolah-olah bangsanya boleh berubah mengikut hari...
“Cuba kamu tengok orang bangsa lain. Ada tak begitu??pakcik itu mengejutkan anak muda itu dari lamunan. “Setahu aku, kalau orang Cina, mukanya Cinalah?Tak semestinya mata sepet tetapi ciri-ciri mukanya nyata, boleh tahu dia ni orang Cina. Kalau Cina muka Melayu, selalunya bapak atau mak Cina kahwin India. Kaum lain pun boleh nampak nyata ciri-cirinya...?Orang tua itu berhenti sejenak. Kemudian merenung muka anak muda itu tanpa berkedip. Ada sesuatu perkara hendak dibangkitkannya...
“Kamu tahu kenapa orang Melayu memiliki berbagai jenis rupa??tiba-tiba dia bertanya. Rasyid cuma menggeleng-gelengkan kepala.
Pakcik itupun meneruskan. Katanya, orang Melayu dahulu bukan setakat bangsa Melayu seperti yang dikenali sekarang tetapi campuran pelbagai bangsa dari seluruh pelusuk dunia yang beragama Islam, atau memeluk Islam selepas menetap lama di Nusantara. Sepertimana ada orang Aceh menyebut perkataan “ACEH?adalah singkatan untuk “Arab, China, Eropah dan Hindi? Kerana menurut mereka, bangsa Aceh adalah bangsa campuran empat bangsa utama dunia. Dan mereka semua diikat oleh satu faktor yang sama iaitu Islam!
Kata orang tua itu lagi, fakta ini memang diketahui oleh orang-orang Barat yang telah menjajah lalu mencorakkan suasana budaya dan politik Tanah Melayu. Tetapi mereka sengaja menyembunyikannya supaya orang Melayu keliru tentang asal-usul mereka sendiri lalu senang dipecah-belahkan...
“Jangan percaya semua yang diajar di sekolah,?dia menegur. “Orang Putih kata manusia berasal dari beruk pun nak percaya juga? Ikut cakap enggang, makan buah belolok. Itu yang Sarawak dapat Raja Brooke!?
Katanya lagi, orang Melayu dahulukala wujud daripada campuran pelbagai bangsa pendatang yang apabila duduk lama di bumi Nusantara menjadi sebati dengan adat, cuaca dan keadaan setempat. Kerana mereka lebih dekat dengan nature, alam sekitar, bukan seperti manusia sekarang yang terlalu berbangga dengan kecanggihan ilmu sains dan teknologi, suka melawan tertib alam sampai cuba mencabar Takdir dan mengubah Qada?dan Qadar...
Lebih menarik lagi, menurut orang tua itu setiap bangsa ini malah setiap bangsa di dunia tidak kira di mana jua mereka berada, apakah asal-usul mereka sebenarnya sudah lama mengenali agama Tauhid yang dibawa para Nabi terdahulu. Malangnya, fakta ini juga sengaja disembunyikan Barat sehingga semua manusia menjadi kalut... Tidak tahu apakah kaitan sebenar di antara semua bangsa ini sedangkan mereka semuanya adalah anak cucu keturunan Nabi Adam AS yang berpecah menjadi pelbagai jurai keturunan.
“Bukankah Allah SWT telah menurunkan 124,000 orang Nabi dan 313 Rasul untuk setiap kaum di muka bumi? Bukankah semuanya membawa agama Tauhid yang memberi kesejahteraan, Salam ataupun Islam??kata pakcik itu penuh semangat. “Maka sedar tidak sedar, para pendatang ini akan menyerap cara hidup di Nusantara termasuk menganut Islam, bercakap bahasa Melayu dan mengamalkan adat-istiadat tempatan. Maka jadilah mereka orang Melayu... Sebab itu wujud istilah masuk Jawi, masuk Melayu. Sebab Melayu itu Islam dan Islam itu Melayu! Bukankah ini termaktub dalam perlembagaan??Rasyid tersenyum puas. “Betullah cakap pakcik,?nbsp; dia menyambut, senang. ?span class="highlight">Melayu bukan setakat satu bangsa sahaja, ia sebenarnya adalah satu konsep penyatuan ummah melalui satu agama. Sepertimana American adalah satu konsep penyatuan pelbagai bangsa dalam satu negara ideal yang dibentuk abad ke 18 Masihi sebagai tindakbalas kepada dasar imperial lapuk Eropah.?BR>“Malangnya anak bangsa kita sendiri tidak faham makna sebenar Melayu akibat politik licik penjajah,?dia menyambung, kesal. “Tidak nampak Inggeris sengaja membawa masuk buruh dari India dan Cina ke Tanah Melayu lalu mengasingkan mereka kepada sektor-sektor tertentu seperti perlombongan dan perladangan supaya pergaulan mereka dengan penduduk tempatan dapat dihadkan. Maka para pendatang yang dikira sebagai His atau Her Majesty’s Subjects, rakyat jajahan takluk Raja Inggeris ini tidak akan masuk Melayu seperti yang pernah berlaku dahulu. Lalu ketegangan dan pergaduhan yang meragut nyawa seperti Perang Larut di Perak dapat diwujudkan untuk menghalalkan campurtangan Inggeris dalam hal ehwal pemerintahan orang Melayu nanti. Maka timbullah Perjanjian Pangkor yang menghina Raja-raja Melayu!
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