Full Version: Is Indonesia a Federation?
Is it run like the United States of America type of federated states...??
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 11 2007, 02:57 AM) 
Is it run like the United States of America type of federated states...??
No... but yes ....
Indonesia is a unitary state (negara kesatuan), but we treat our province as like as local state in the federal states....
indonesian govt is kinda allergic to hear "indonesia is a federation country" becoz we had bad experience bout it.
but yea...with the "otonom" system, actually indonesia directly makes its area like federation.
so actually indonesia isn't a pure united country anymore..the practice, it's more federal..
by the way..shy should we be that traumatised by federal country? federal country isn't bad tho....
for your information..we can't change the form of our country..why?
because UUD 45 1:1 can't be changed..and it's valid through the law that we use now.
but yea...with the "otonom" system, actually indonesia directly makes its area like federation.
so actually indonesia isn't a pure united country anymore..the practice, it's more federal..
by the way..shy should we be that traumatised by federal country? federal country isn't bad tho....
for your information..we can't change the form of our country..why?
because UUD 45 1:1 can't be changed..and it's valid through the law that we use now.
Indonesia is a Republic in form of Unitary State, Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia.
During the formation..., this system is very similar and maybe modeled after French Republic, with some "additional taste" of military-totalitarian unitary state like Japanese Empire during WWII. That's why during Suharto regime, although relatively "peaceful" era, there's no real freedom of speech and politic aspirations, since military and Suharto hold power.
But since the dawn of history, I can say Indonesia always applied some kind of "federal system".
Each of the islands and area in the archipelago has their own leader, sovereign, kings and queens, nobles, law, customs, and their beliefs (indigenious or adaptation of world's religion). Although the archipelago has witnessed the rise and fall of kingdoms and empires. From Srivijaya to Majapahit, Aceh to Mataram. The ruling empire always exercise minimal power and control to their subjects vassal kingdoms..... very similar to today Indonesia's Otonomi (Autonomous system).
We hesitate to used "Federal" word and prefer "Autonomous" insteads (but at the practice it's quite the same) becoz after the Indonesian revolution against The Netherlands (1945-1949) through aggreement in Den Haag, The Netherlands only recognize The Federations of Indonesia; The United States of Indonesia, with Republic of Indonesia proclaimed by Sukarno in August 17th 1945 as just one of many states in it. Netherlands also hesitate to hand over West Papua to Indonesia. On the other hand, Republic of Indonesia during the proclamation has claimed that her territory was all of former Dutch East Indies, including all the islands and western Papua.
The United States of Indonesia consist of several states that had strong Netherlands influence in them. Sukarno allegedly accused these states as "puppet states" of the Netherlands, demands the true union of Archipelago within the Republic of Indonesia. Later he dissolve the United States of Indonesia, merge it in one Republic, disband the Federal system, then start the totalitarian union of Indonesia under Sukarno regime.....
But now since the fall of Suharto regime, reformasi era, and seccession of East Timor, there's growing pressure from provinces demanding more autonomous power to manage their own territory.
During the formation..., this system is very similar and maybe modeled after French Republic, with some "additional taste" of military-totalitarian unitary state like Japanese Empire during WWII. That's why during Suharto regime, although relatively "peaceful" era, there's no real freedom of speech and politic aspirations, since military and Suharto hold power.
But since the dawn of history, I can say Indonesia always applied some kind of "federal system".
Each of the islands and area in the archipelago has their own leader, sovereign, kings and queens, nobles, law, customs, and their beliefs (indigenious or adaptation of world's religion). Although the archipelago has witnessed the rise and fall of kingdoms and empires. From Srivijaya to Majapahit, Aceh to Mataram. The ruling empire always exercise minimal power and control to their subjects vassal kingdoms..... very similar to today Indonesia's Otonomi (Autonomous system).
We hesitate to used "Federal" word and prefer "Autonomous" insteads (but at the practice it's quite the same) becoz after the Indonesian revolution against The Netherlands (1945-1949) through aggreement in Den Haag, The Netherlands only recognize The Federations of Indonesia; The United States of Indonesia, with Republic of Indonesia proclaimed by Sukarno in August 17th 1945 as just one of many states in it. Netherlands also hesitate to hand over West Papua to Indonesia. On the other hand, Republic of Indonesia during the proclamation has claimed that her territory was all of former Dutch East Indies, including all the islands and western Papua.
The United States of Indonesia consist of several states that had strong Netherlands influence in them. Sukarno allegedly accused these states as "puppet states" of the Netherlands, demands the true union of Archipelago within the Republic of Indonesia. Later he dissolve the United States of Indonesia, merge it in one Republic, disband the Federal system, then start the totalitarian union of Indonesia under Sukarno regime.....
But now since the fall of Suharto regime, reformasi era, and seccession of East Timor, there's growing pressure from provinces demanding more autonomous power to manage their own territory.
So there had been a United States of Indonesia during Sukarno's time???
U know, many european states like Ireland, the UK and Spain are undergoing a similar devolution of central powers to the autonomous regions. I think its a sign of political maturity and confidence to be able to allow provinces to manage their own territorial security, taxes, education and economic policies... however, there is always a fear that with Federalism, some provinces will thrive while others will be left behind due to economic differences.
I think Java is afraid of being left behind if provinces like West Papua or Aceh (oil rich provinces) are given total autonomy.
Not only that, a Federal state will only work where despite the different ethnic diversities, the peoples all feel the one and the same national identity... juz like the Americans with their American Dream despite their vast differences of ethnic groups. In Indonesia, I wonder if people from all parts of the archipelago feel the same way as Americans do about their national identity, and their ethnicity comes second after the national identity.
What do u think?
U know, many european states like Ireland, the UK and Spain are undergoing a similar devolution of central powers to the autonomous regions. I think its a sign of political maturity and confidence to be able to allow provinces to manage their own territorial security, taxes, education and economic policies... however, there is always a fear that with Federalism, some provinces will thrive while others will be left behind due to economic differences.
I think Java is afraid of being left behind if provinces like West Papua or Aceh (oil rich provinces) are given total autonomy.
Not only that, a Federal state will only work where despite the different ethnic diversities, the peoples all feel the one and the same national identity... juz like the Americans with their American Dream despite their vast differences of ethnic groups. In Indonesia, I wonder if people from all parts of the archipelago feel the same way as Americans do about their national identity, and their ethnicity comes second after the national identity.
What do u think?
Aceh now is an autonomous province. that's what they demand, if Indonesia still want to have it as province. probably what tight us is our experience and history and also aims..so despite of showing ethnic superiority we'd better work together for this country.
it's not bout what comes first and what comes second. i think most people of Indonesia think both ethnic and nationality are in the same position. they both are equal.
java afraid?? can be. but i agree with this kind of autonomous system...but now not all provinces can be autonomous..there are some requirements if they want o be an autonomous province..
it's not bout what comes first and what comes second. i think most people of Indonesia think both ethnic and nationality are in the same position. they both are equal.
java afraid?? can be. but i agree with this kind of autonomous system...but now not all provinces can be autonomous..there are some requirements if they want o be an autonomous province..
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 11 2007, 03:47 PM)
So there had been a United States of Indonesia during Sukarno's time???
Yes... we called it RIS, Republik Indonesia Serikat
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 11 2007, 03:47 PM)
U know, many european states like Ireland, the UK and Spain are undergoing a similar devolution of central powers to the autonomous regions. I think its a sign of political maturity and confidence to be able to allow provinces to manage their own territorial security, taxes, education and economic policies... however, there is always a fear that with Federalism, some provinces will thrive while others will be left behind due to economic differences.
I think Indonesia now is gradually evolved to be more mature in this sense.....
Yeah there's fear is the imbalance of fortune since some province hold most of natural resources and infrastructure, while the others poor.
But the most fearsome thing is this federalism could create neo tribalism and primordialism, Indonesia is no more for whole Indonesian. Some people, especially natives of the area will felt they have far more rights than the rest of Indonesian who lifed there, this issues could fuel the discriminations and separatism if not managed well.
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 11 2007, 03:47 PM)
I think Java is afraid of being left behind if provinces like West Papua or Aceh (oil rich provinces) are given total autonomy.
Not only that, a Federal state will only work where despite the different ethnic diversities, the peoples all feel the one and the same national identity... juz like the Americans with their American Dream despite their vast differences of ethnic groups. In Indonesia, I wonder if people from all parts of the archipelago feel the same way as Americans do about their national identity, and their ethnicity comes second after the national identity.
What do u think?
Not only that, a Federal state will only work where despite the different ethnic diversities, the peoples all feel the one and the same national identity... juz like the Americans with their American Dream despite their vast differences of ethnic groups. In Indonesia, I wonder if people from all parts of the archipelago feel the same way as Americans do about their national identity, and their ethnicity comes second after the national identity.
What do u think?
Java, (and in some degree..., also Sumatra) always enjoy being "the center" of Archipelago since ancient times....
I think Java still holds major role in Indonesia for quite some times due demographic and population reasons. The fear of too much loosened freedom over federalism is what will happen to this huge amount of Javanese populations if other island close their door and opportunity.....?
Indonesia is for whole Indonesians no matter their ethnics, races, and religions.
I think most of Indonesians, despites our differences, still belief our common value in "Unity in Diversity".
I'm a muslim Sunda-Javanese, but I can say I'm Indonesian first.
Should Indonesia undergo a modern progress like the one experienced by the ancestors of the americans (who left their notions of tribal and religious divisions behind in Europe and enjoyed an unprecedented economic boom and uplift from industrialization and agricultural mechanization ) in order to stay confident and be less fearful of a return to primordial tribalism?
Ask an american who they are and they invariably say proudly that I Am American. Always. And the pride shines through.
When u say I Am Indonesian, the pride doesn't shine through as much as an ethnic identification like I Am Batak or I Am Madurese...
am i right in that assessment about indonesian behavior?
Ask an american who they are and they invariably say proudly that I Am American. Always. And the pride shines through.
When u say I Am Indonesian, the pride doesn't shine through as much as an ethnic identification like I Am Batak or I Am Madurese...
am i right in that assessment about indonesian behavior?
^not really..depends on the person..for more info maybe mas maja will explain... 
tangy if you meant was secularism..i don't think it suits indonesia.
i think anything, politict, raligious values, traditional values must go hand in hand.
nothing can stand alone. to create balance we have to do more than one things..
economy is important...however..it has become something usual too see whether a country is rich or not, andvanced or not from the economical growth while actually it's not really true.
tangy if you meant was secularism..i don't think it suits indonesia.
i think anything, politict, raligious values, traditional values must go hand in hand.
nothing can stand alone. to create balance we have to do more than one things..
economy is important...however..it has become something usual too see whether a country is rich or not, andvanced or not from the economical growth while actually it's not really true.
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 18 2007, 03:44 PM)
Should Indonesia undergo a modern progress like the one experienced by the ancestors of the americans (who left their notions of tribal and religious divisions behind in Europe and enjoyed an unprecedented economic boom and uplift from industrialization and agricultural mechanization ) in order to stay confident and be less fearful of a return to primordial tribalism?
Ask an american who they are and they invariably say proudly that I Am American. Always. And the pride shines through.
When u say I Am Indonesian, the pride doesn't shine through as much as an ethnic identification like I Am Batak or I Am Madurese...
am i right in that assessment about indonesian behavior?
Ask an american who they are and they invariably say proudly that I Am American. Always. And the pride shines through.
When u say I Am Indonesian, the pride doesn't shine through as much as an ethnic identification like I Am Batak or I Am Madurese...
am i right in that assessment about indonesian behavior?
it should be noted that those are left behind not only notionally but also physically. they physically moved to a new land, without any demarcated boundaries, without any 'olive tree' to claim as their own (you know which book I'm referring to), bereft of any historical legacy they care about (risking broad generalization, i guess those newly landed europeans hardly cared about native americans' narratives) --so it's easier to them.
sure you can find similar patterns in Indonesia. young people, brimming with hopes, go to big cities, to Java, to the capital, or even abroad, to either study or work or try their luck or pickpocket their way, anything. on their way they left some of those old primordial tribalism, met new people, found new associations, forged new identity, swore to new loyalties. many of these people, and their offsprings (this has been going since early 20st century, mind you), are the Indonesians first. anything else came second, and became more and more distant every year. in the case of the offsprings those 'anything else' became a very vague ones --mostly because they know so little of those 'anything else', being raised without benefits of living in their ethnic group's primordial land.
those are now many, but even more many of us Indonesians who are still tied to the land we were born and raised on. many among us never venture outside their own regency, let alone to other island. many others did move to another island, lived in the midst of other ethnic groups, but did so under the government's transmigration program which at times simply plucked one village and shipped it virtually intact to another place in the middle of a jungle. now how much assimilation you could expect from that? to these people, Indonesia is a part of their village, a community they need not to imagine, not only because it is real but also because they know so little of any other community to even start imagining about these Others being a part of their Self.
so, about your assessment, it all depends on whom you talk to, Wizi. i'm confident of myself, of where my loyalty lays, but i know of many others enough that i wouldn't speak for them, because i can't. one sure thing, IMO, we are not fearful of a return to primordial tribalism without good reasons. the miracle of our age show us how ugly it could become, and how ugly it has become in some parts of the world. we even know how ugly it has once, twice, times over-- became, in our midst, among our own fellow countrymen. that's a risk you wouldn't gamble on lightly.
Well, joko, i am not sure if primordial tribalism is all that bad for a nation of varied tribes you know.. it must be nature's way of managing the balance of powers... 
i did read a chapter in Naipaul's second book on islamic journeys in converted lands, he had written a follow up chapter on his visit to Java, where he wrote abt his Javanese fren Linus, a poet who was struggling with love for his people and poverty. Naipaul's observations of Linus' sophisticated yet impoverished mother was a classic. also his description of how poor farmers who managed to survive and flourish through life under Suharto's regime is really incisive. as well as his observation on the leaders of the pesentran and how their teachings have affected young javanese youths who are seeking an anchor in the fast pace of modernization... there's alot of changes in the values of the various indonesian lives as globalisation buffets their daily lives..
eva, i don't think secularism is what i meant as a destiny for the indonesian folks. i meant the American Dream or hope that one day you can make it successful in yr society. I am wondering if a similar Dream can be manufactured for Indonesia and its millions.. not the ancient majapahitan royalty kinda dream, but rather, juz look at Agnes or Mariana Renata and u see what i mean... a globalised dream, not a primordial tribal village association as Joko aptly described below
There surely is something of a globalised dream for the indonesian youths who are now urbanised... all of u guys on this forum are part of this evolution. Are you losing or gaining more confidence? are you able to articulate your life more than their parents, grandparents who came with u to the city? or are still left behind in their village associations? Would u be able to convince your fellow youths that a slide to primordial tribalism would be a disaster? or a necessary evil to right the balance of power and resources???
i did read a chapter in Naipaul's second book on islamic journeys in converted lands, he had written a follow up chapter on his visit to Java, where he wrote abt his Javanese fren Linus, a poet who was struggling with love for his people and poverty. Naipaul's observations of Linus' sophisticated yet impoverished mother was a classic. also his description of how poor farmers who managed to survive and flourish through life under Suharto's regime is really incisive. as well as his observation on the leaders of the pesentran and how their teachings have affected young javanese youths who are seeking an anchor in the fast pace of modernization... there's alot of changes in the values of the various indonesian lives as globalisation buffets their daily lives..
eva, i don't think secularism is what i meant as a destiny for the indonesian folks. i meant the American Dream or hope that one day you can make it successful in yr society. I am wondering if a similar Dream can be manufactured for Indonesia and its millions.. not the ancient majapahitan royalty kinda dream, but rather, juz look at Agnes or Mariana Renata and u see what i mean... a globalised dream, not a primordial tribal village association as Joko aptly described below
QUOTE(jokotarub @ Jun 18 2007, 08:21 PM)
it should be noted that those are left behind not only notionally but also physically. they physically moved to a new land, without any demarcated boundaries, without any 'olive tree' to claim as their own (you know which book I'm referring to), bereft of any historical legacy they care about (risking broad generalization, i guess those newly landed europeans hardly cared about native americans' narratives) --so it's easier to them.
sure you can find similar patterns in Indonesia. young people, brimming with hopes, go to big cities, to Java, to the capital, or even abroad, to either study or work or try their luck or pickpocket their way, anything. on their way they left some of those old primordial tribalism, met new people, found new associations, forged new identity, swore to new loyalties. many of these people, and their offsprings (this has been going since early 20st century, mind you), are the Indonesians first. anything else came second, and became more and more distant every year. in the case of the offsprings those 'anything else' became a very vague ones --mostly because they know so little of those 'anything else', being raised without benefits of living in their ethnic group's primordial land.
those are now many, but even more many of us Indonesians who are still tied to the land we were born and raised on. many among us never venture outside their own regency, let alone to other island. many others did move to another island, lived in the midst of other ethnic groups, but did so under the government's transmigration program which at times simply plucked one village and shipped it virtually intact to another place in the middle of a jungle. now how much assimilation you could expect from that? to these people, Indonesia is a part of their village, a community they need not to imagine, not only because it is real but also because they know so little of any other community to even start imagining about these Others being a part of their Self.
so, about your assessment, it all depends on whom you talk to, Wizi. i'm confident of myself, of where my loyalty lays, but i know of many others enough that i wouldn't speak for them, because i can't. one sure thing, IMO, we are not fearful of a return to primordial tribalism without good reasons. the miracle of our age show us how ugly it could become, and how ugly it has become in some parts of the world. we even know how ugly it has once, twice, times over-- became, in our midst, among our own fellow countrymen. that's a risk you wouldn't gamble on lightly.
sure you can find similar patterns in Indonesia. young people, brimming with hopes, go to big cities, to Java, to the capital, or even abroad, to either study or work or try their luck or pickpocket their way, anything. on their way they left some of those old primordial tribalism, met new people, found new associations, forged new identity, swore to new loyalties. many of these people, and their offsprings (this has been going since early 20st century, mind you), are the Indonesians first. anything else came second, and became more and more distant every year. in the case of the offsprings those 'anything else' became a very vague ones --mostly because they know so little of those 'anything else', being raised without benefits of living in their ethnic group's primordial land.
those are now many, but even more many of us Indonesians who are still tied to the land we were born and raised on. many among us never venture outside their own regency, let alone to other island. many others did move to another island, lived in the midst of other ethnic groups, but did so under the government's transmigration program which at times simply plucked one village and shipped it virtually intact to another place in the middle of a jungle. now how much assimilation you could expect from that? to these people, Indonesia is a part of their village, a community they need not to imagine, not only because it is real but also because they know so little of any other community to even start imagining about these Others being a part of their Self.
so, about your assessment, it all depends on whom you talk to, Wizi. i'm confident of myself, of where my loyalty lays, but i know of many others enough that i wouldn't speak for them, because i can't. one sure thing, IMO, we are not fearful of a return to primordial tribalism without good reasons. the miracle of our age show us how ugly it could become, and how ugly it has become in some parts of the world. we even know how ugly it has once, twice, times over-- became, in our midst, among our own fellow countrymen. that's a risk you wouldn't gamble on lightly.
There surely is something of a globalised dream for the indonesian youths who are now urbanised... all of u guys on this forum are part of this evolution. Are you losing or gaining more confidence? are you able to articulate your life more than their parents, grandparents who came with u to the city? or are still left behind in their village associations? Would u be able to convince your fellow youths that a slide to primordial tribalism would be a disaster? or a necessary evil to right the balance of power and resources???
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 19 2007, 06:09 PM)
eva, i don't think secularism is what i meant as a destiny for the indonesian folks. i meant the American Dream or hope that one day you can make it successful in yr society. I am wondering if a similar Dream can be manufactured for Indonesia and its millions.. not the ancient majapahitan royalty kinda dream, but rather, juz look at Agnes or Mariana Renata and u see what i mean... a globalised dream, not a primordial tribal village association as Joko aptly described below
Wizi, wow.. I just read the thread you made on Indonesian surnames and suddenly it dawned on me: you see us as one people. I mean it's surely a good thing and it's touching to have you see us already as something we still aspire to be. But what you see now belies the long journey we travelled to make it.
It might not be obvious to you but the very notion of "Indonesianess" is itself a dream. Indonesia is an invention. Only a little more than a century ago it wasn't only inexist --it was unimaginable. At that time you could only see a bewildering array of ethnicities, wary of one another, which had never become a single nation before. We may be heirs to the great empires of old --that's a neat thought-- but truth to be told, those empires are just that: empires. Not a nation.
And this nation, this dream, is still becoming. It hasn't really came true yet, even though to many of us we've been breathing its air for our whole life. This dream is still wrought over and over again, by the multitude of minds and hands whose destiny are tied together by the very idea --or imagination, if you please-- that they are, well, together. This Indonesian Dream is a collective one, Wizi. It's not the kind of 'whoever you are, wherever you're from, you can make it here for it's the Land of Hope' dream. Hope is everywhere and yes you can make it on your own, but you never really make it until you made it together. And here's the crucial link: how could you make it together if you couldn't see 'them' together with you?
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 19 2007, 06:09 PM)
i did read a chapter in Naipaul's second book on islamic journeys in converted lands, he had written a follow up chapter on his visit to Java, where he wrote abt his Javanese fren Linus, a poet who was struggling with love for his people and poverty. Naipaul's observations of Linus' sophisticated yet impoverished mother was a classic. also his description of how poor farmers who managed to survive and flourish through life under Suharto's regime is really incisive. as well as his observation on the leaders of the pesentran and how their teachings have affected young javanese youths who are seeking an anchor in the fast pace of modernization... there's alot of changes in the values of the various indonesian lives as globalisation buffets their daily lives..
Changes in values of Indonesians are inevitable. You see, to admit Indonesianess in you may itself represent a change of values. Now globalisation and the forces which brought it about have brought, and will continue to bring, further changes, just like in everywhere else in the world.
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 19 2007, 06:09 PM)
Well, joko, i am not sure if primordial tribalism is all that bad for a nation of varied tribes you know.. it must be nature's way of managing the balance of powers...
There surely is something of a globalised dream for the indonesian youths who are now urbanised... all of u guys on this forum are part of this evolution. Are you losing or gaining more confidence? are you able to articulate your life more than their parents, grandparents who came with u to the city? or are still left behind in their village associations? Would u be able to convince your fellow youths that a slide to primordial tribalism would be a disaster? or a necessary evil to right the balance of power and resources???
There surely is something of a globalised dream for the indonesian youths who are now urbanised... all of u guys on this forum are part of this evolution. Are you losing or gaining more confidence? are you able to articulate your life more than their parents, grandparents who came with u to the city? or are still left behind in their village associations? Would u be able to convince your fellow youths that a slide to primordial tribalism would be a disaster? or a necessary evil to right the balance of power and resources???
I'm not sure if this relates to your comments and questions, but the thing with all these primordial ties is that it defines ourselves. I told you the nation was invented, manufactured. It is noble and all-encompassing, but it also lacks cultural meanings, social wisdom, old knowledge and sense of history. We cannot afford to sever all these primordial ties or we would end up being artificial. It's a fine line we have to tread on here, and the funny thing about globalisation is that it often reinforces people's primordial ties.
Heya joko, i know it's hard for outsiders to see Indonesia as different peoples with different primordial ties to their pasts, many of us like to generalise on a macro level. And that is the stupid danger we live under in these modern times.
I think you have written some very important thoughts down on this thread, joko...
QUOTE(jokotarub @ Jun 24 2007, 08:37 PM)
And this nation, this dream, is still becoming. It hasn't really came true yet, even though to many of us we've been breathing its air for our whole life. This dream is still wrought over and over again, by the multitude of minds and hands whose destiny are tied together by the very idea --or imagination, if you please-- that they are, well, together. This Indonesian Dream is a collective one, Wizi. It's not the kind of 'whoever you are, wherever you're from, you can make it here for it's the Land of Hope' dream. Hope is everywhere and yes you can make it on your own, but you never really make it until you made it together. And here's the crucial link: how could you make it together if you couldn't see 'them' together with you?
what u wrote up there? it's applicable to any country in this world, including Iraq for instance! i actually find the same issue in Singapore, where our SG identity is practically zero because we just donno if we have a chance to make it together as one people with our chosen leaders, since our leaders consistently does things that pisses the ordinary man-in-the-street.
QUOTE(jokotarub @ Jun 24 2007, 08:37 PM)
Changes in values of Indonesians are inevitable. You see, to admit Indonesianess in you may itself represent a change of values. Now globalisation and the forces which brought it about have brought, and will continue to bring, further changes, just like in everywhere else in the world.
What is Indonesianness is the big question, isn't it? In America, their Hollywood has manufactured the American Dream as the Land of Hope to be the essence of Americanness.. what is the equivalent in the Indonesian essence? Where do u see this evolving?
QUOTE(jokotarub @ Jun 24 2007, 08:37 PM)
I'm not sure if this relates to your comments and questions, but the thing with all these primordial ties is that it defines ourselves. I told you the nation was invented, manufactured. It is noble and all-encompassing, but it also lacks cultural meanings, social wisdom, old knowledge and sense of history. We cannot afford to sever all these primordial ties or we would end up being artificial. It's a fine line we have to tread on here, and the funny thing about globalisation is that it often reinforces people's primordial ties.
These ties to primordial values... yes, they are what keeps the peoples resilient and strong in the face of our increasing inter-connected world. Globalisation has brought about more inter-connectedness than ever before. On the contrary, the ties to primordial values seek to differentiate us from the others, and isolate us from this global inter-connectedness, do u agree?
Ladies and gentlemen, I feel proud and inspired to be among such brilliant and compassionate minds.
Even if you stop writing, I am sure your other activities will make the world a better place.
Even if you stop writing, I am sure your other activities will make the world a better place.
Errrrr....? have u been doing some meditation lately Ralf??? compassionate minds? what's that??? 
It's the bleeding-heart hippy within.....
I was a bit overwhelmed with admiration for everyone here, because they take the time to think about complex issues.
I think this group discusses the issues with a genuine concern for making the world a better place.
I was a bit overwhelmed with admiration for everyone here, because they take the time to think about complex issues.
I think this group discusses the issues with a genuine concern for making the world a better place.
tangy, I always wonder about you. One time you seem like this wild party gal, but on the other hand you are also very serious and intense at other times. Not that it' a bad thing, in fact it's real cool. 
Most of the Indonesians here in this forum are from Java island, so maybe they are clueless about what others think about them. I'm from Kalimantan, South Kalimantan to be exact. And even though we never resorted to killing people from Java (like they did in Central Kalimantan do to the Madurese), we do feel some kind of resentment toward the people in Java. Our island is very rich, yet development is going very slow in our place. In Indonesia, every resources are used to build Java. If you really want to have a good education, you must go to Java. If you want to have a better health facility, you must go to Java. You can see that the central government hasn't been very fair about sharing our cake.
So, you can't blame Aceh or Papua if they want to be free, it's our government's fault. I think the central government must think about this carefully and make changes as fast as they can to empower the other provinces. I for one, am proud to be an Indonesian exceeding my pride of my ethnicity, but I dunno about my other countrymen. The government have to work hard to give them good reasons if they want people to be proud to be Indonesians.
Most of the Indonesians here in this forum are from Java island, so maybe they are clueless about what others think about them. I'm from Kalimantan, South Kalimantan to be exact. And even though we never resorted to killing people from Java (like they did in Central Kalimantan do to the Madurese), we do feel some kind of resentment toward the people in Java. Our island is very rich, yet development is going very slow in our place. In Indonesia, every resources are used to build Java. If you really want to have a good education, you must go to Java. If you want to have a better health facility, you must go to Java. You can see that the central government hasn't been very fair about sharing our cake.
So, you can't blame Aceh or Papua if they want to be free, it's our government's fault. I think the central government must think about this carefully and make changes as fast as they can to empower the other provinces. I for one, am proud to be an Indonesian exceeding my pride of my ethnicity, but I dunno about my other countrymen. The government have to work hard to give them good reasons if they want people to be proud to be Indonesians.
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