so i met this girl who was campaigning for the end to circumcision as a practice here in africa. she said that many of the traditional practices here are tribal in origin, and come from a primitive urge to control the lives of their womenfolk. much of the ritual and practice here is quite backward in the sense that the circumcision usually ends up as what they technically call 'genital mutilation' especially for the girls. boys circumcisions are not as messy..
i told her that circumcision is still done on millions of asians in SE Asia as it is a religious practice stemming from the origins of Judaism and now carried on by Islam. but much of the circumcisions carried out in Asia are clinically done in hospitals with proper laser equipment and stuff. She was horrified to find out that muslims in asia do circumcise their baby girls too.
i told her that respect for tradition and ritual should still continue if they are willing to evolve with the times and technology, what is wrong with that idea of circumcision if the families subscribe to that practice as a cultural tradition? who are we to say whose practice is savage and whose is civilised??
what do u think?? is circumcision common in Singapore, Msia and Indonesia? Howabt thailand?
Full Version: Should circumcision be banned in SE asia?
Americans practise it too.
Christians, Muslims, Judaism.
But from what i know, most Chinese dont do it. Very few do it for hygenic purposes.
Christians, Muslims, Judaism.
But from what i know, most Chinese dont do it. Very few do it for hygenic purposes.
I think it needs to be clearly differentiated between circumcision in males and females.
In males, circumcision is the removal of the foreskin.
In females, circumcision is the removal of the entire clitoris, which is akin in men to the removal of the entire penis.
Personally I'm against circumcision in females because of the reasoning behind it and also because it removes a persons ability to enjoy sex which I believe is something very basic to humans. Most cultures that practice circumcision in females do it so that woemn can't enjoy sex so that when they marry, their husbands can be sure that the children are his, becasue his wife won't go arond looking for sex. Personally I feel that if he can't trust his own wife and if he is that insecure, then its his problem. I admit that in some cultures marriage is not based on love, trust and respect and is often arranged around a table/campfire with the exchange of livestock. In terms of extramarital sex and children born out of wedlock, the reasoning behind the circumcision of females assumes the entire responsibility of the above to be the womons, when I believe that the responsibility should be shared between the 2. After all if all mens penis were cut off or they were castrated, there would also be no extramarital sex etc.
In males, circumcision is the removal of the foreskin.
In females, circumcision is the removal of the entire clitoris, which is akin in men to the removal of the entire penis.
Personally I'm against circumcision in females because of the reasoning behind it and also because it removes a persons ability to enjoy sex which I believe is something very basic to humans. Most cultures that practice circumcision in females do it so that woemn can't enjoy sex so that when they marry, their husbands can be sure that the children are his, becasue his wife won't go arond looking for sex. Personally I feel that if he can't trust his own wife and if he is that insecure, then its his problem. I admit that in some cultures marriage is not based on love, trust and respect and is often arranged around a table/campfire with the exchange of livestock. In terms of extramarital sex and children born out of wedlock, the reasoning behind the circumcision of females assumes the entire responsibility of the above to be the womons, when I believe that the responsibility should be shared between the 2. After all if all mens penis were cut off or they were castrated, there would also be no extramarital sex etc.
I should add that from a medical point of view circumcision in males in most instances is viewed us un-necessary. From a medical point of view the only time when circumcision is warrented is with phimosis and paraphimosis. In the past we used to think that circumcision was hygenic and therefore most parents got their sons circumcised. This paid for many a surgeons Mercs and Beamers, however we now know that this is not true, all that is needed is to teach a child how to draw the foreskin back to wash the head. There is some evidence that circumcised men have a lesser chance of spreading STD but, from my understanding this is inconclusive.
The vast majority of cases of circumcision in todays world is cultural ie Judaism and Muslims.
The vast majority of cases of circumcision in todays world is cultural ie Judaism and Muslims.
don't ban circumcision ban penises.
chop em off
chop em off
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Jun 20 2007, 06:45 AM) 
I think it needs to be clearly differentiated between circumcision in males and females.
In males, circumcision is the removal of the foreskin.
In females, circumcision is the removal of the entire clitoris, which is akin in men to the removal of the entire penis.
Personally I'm against circumcision in females because of the reasoning behind it and also because it removes a persons ability to enjoy sex which I believe is something very basic to humans. Most cultures that practice circumcision in females do it so that woemn can't enjoy sex so that when they marry, their husbands can be sure that the children are his, becasue his wife won't go arond looking for sex. Personally I feel that if he can't trust his own wife and if he is that insecure, then its his problem. I admit that in some cultures marriage is not based on love, trust and respect and is often arranged around a table/campfire with the exchange of livestock. In terms of extramarital sex and children born out of wedlock, the reasoning behind the circumcision of females assumes the entire responsibility of the above to be the womons, when I believe that the responsibility should be shared between the 2. After all if all mens penis were cut off or they were castrated, there would also be no extramarital sex etc.
In males, circumcision is the removal of the foreskin.
In females, circumcision is the removal of the entire clitoris, which is akin in men to the removal of the entire penis.
Personally I'm against circumcision in females because of the reasoning behind it and also because it removes a persons ability to enjoy sex which I believe is something very basic to humans. Most cultures that practice circumcision in females do it so that woemn can't enjoy sex so that when they marry, their husbands can be sure that the children are his, becasue his wife won't go arond looking for sex. Personally I feel that if he can't trust his own wife and if he is that insecure, then its his problem. I admit that in some cultures marriage is not based on love, trust and respect and is often arranged around a table/campfire with the exchange of livestock. In terms of extramarital sex and children born out of wedlock, the reasoning behind the circumcision of females assumes the entire responsibility of the above to be the womons, when I believe that the responsibility should be shared between the 2. After all if all mens penis were cut off or they were castrated, there would also be no extramarital sex etc.
There are different types of female circumcision, it doesn't always involve the removal of the entire clitoris, all types are pretty disgusting though.
I don't agree with circumcision for males or females.
isn't it true that apart from the clitoris, the labia is also taken out as well? i think in SE Asia they do that in the clinical circumcisions for young baby girls... please correct me if i am wrong about this.. 
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 20 2007, 10:25 AM)
isn't it true that apart from the clitoris, the labia is also taken out as well? i think in SE Asia they do that in the clinical circumcisions for young baby girls... please correct me if i am wrong about this..
Depends on the type of circumcision, there isn't just one type for women
well, what do u know abt the different types of circumcisions for women? let us have the low-down, can or not? i wanna know what happens in SE Asia before i meet this girl again and debate on the subject of female genital mutilation.. 
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 20 2007, 04:25 AM)
isn't it true that apart from the clitoris, the labia is also taken out as well? i think in SE Asia they do that in the clinical circumcisions for young baby girls... please correct me if i am wrong about this..
I don't think there is any such thing as clinical circumcision of baby girls.
oh darn! hope not... they should continue it... it has its hygienic purposes...
plus an uncircumcized d*ck looks scary
plus an uncircumcized d*ck looks scary
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Jun 20 2007, 01:30 PM)
I don't think there is any such thing as clinical circumcision of baby girls.
My malay girlfrens are circumcised believe it or not..
Circumcision should be banned for females but not males
QUOTE(rizzacusi @ Jun 20 2007, 06:03 AM)
oh darn! hope not... they should continue it... it has its hygienic purposes...
plus an uncircumcized d*ck looks scary
plus an uncircumcized d*ck looks scary
talking about experience.. LOL
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 20 2007, 10:57 AM)
well, what do u know abt the different types of circumcisions for women? let us have the low-down, can or not? i wanna know what happens in SE Asia before i meet this girl again and debate on the subject of female genital mutilation..
You're better off just looking at it on wikipedia
what a git..! LOL!
my pisang emas was circumcised when I was 12 to grow to become my pride of pisang tanduk....never regretted it and woman loved it 
okay, this interesting snippet from a malay blogger, i know this thread isn't targetted at the malays alone but since they are the only ones i know whose religion actively encourages circumcision rites just as the tribes here do, i will post it here for discussion:
the thiing is that here in east africa, the teenaged girls are also made very publicly aware of the circumcision of pubescent boys in their midst. there is so much pomp and ritual abt the whole affair that no matter how naive and mushroomed the girls are, they become aware of the changing sexuality of themselves and their peers. so no matter how u insist that the circumcision is aimed at controlling womenfolk as a chattel not to eff-around, the fact is uultimately, the whole ritual of circumcision makes them most aware of sex at a very young and tender age!
QUOTE
What old man said may be right about circumcision. The Malay as a whole has a very sexualised culture where awareness
of the manhood is brought out in the open creating natural curiosity and sensuality among the girls even at a very
young age. Most young girls will remember their their male cousins being proudly celebrated with elaborate kenduris
by their parents to have their manhoods circumcised. It is normal to invite relatives to watch the tok mudim come to the house
and in kampung houses where there are only one main hall, the public display may means even at a young age girls are sexually aware
of manhood and the excitement in such events enhanced their curiosity. Some girls are even allowed be part of the highly
sexualised atmosphere where adults sat around the nervous young man trying to keep his composure as some made sexually direct remarks
on his predicament. Being the centre of attention with his lower half naked while lying on a mattress he has to endure the
embarassment of public scrutiny. Some girls are even allowed to watch the brother's manhood being exposed before the blood spurt
from the cutting of the foreskin.
The entire circumcision event affect the girls sensuality more as the boys were kept exposed in the hall while recuperating for a week.
Such family celebration of manhood is not found in any other culture. This ritual is not surprisingly led by the women in the
family as they have to prepare the kenduris. The sexually charge environment can only enhanced a girl knowledge and curiosity.
Of course most Malay girls themselves are circumcised though this is not spoken as much in the family. But the process of female circumcision
is no less interesting with the girls naked legs spread apart to allow the circumcision at a young age, it brought their sexuality to the fore.
Whispering among the women folk brought sex awareness early to the girls.
Another aspect is the body shape of Malay women which are generally curvaceous e.g Ziana Zain, Sofia Jane etc. Compare this to the extreme thin Singaporean Chinese body shape and it is not surprising that Singaporean have the least interest in sex. Voluptuosness must come with a certain fat.
The relax lifestyle too allows more for more sexual exploration while the stress of competition takes away the interest of most other
races. And the erotic lifestyle is carried on in pantuns and public flirting..thus Malay women are exposed to such sensual environment
that is carried on in the bedroom.
Malay women talk too is highly sexualised from what I personally hear...and this does not mean vulgar talk but rather highly sexualised
content which you can hear in most office as they describe their exploits...
And what about the jamu and the kacip fatimah potions which help to tightened their parts have been around for centuries. Thus Malay women
expect to enjoy sex and are prepared to take positive actions such taking jamu medications so they can performed better.
And of course the tudung which are drummed into the young girls they have to wear because they are sexually alluring to men. While most
girls in other culture are slow to aware of their effects on men, Malays girls are told at puberty to cover their body parts thus enhancing their
sensual awareness.
To be continued
of the manhood is brought out in the open creating natural curiosity and sensuality among the girls even at a very
young age. Most young girls will remember their their male cousins being proudly celebrated with elaborate kenduris
by their parents to have their manhoods circumcised. It is normal to invite relatives to watch the tok mudim come to the house
and in kampung houses where there are only one main hall, the public display may means even at a young age girls are sexually aware
of manhood and the excitement in such events enhanced their curiosity. Some girls are even allowed be part of the highly
sexualised atmosphere where adults sat around the nervous young man trying to keep his composure as some made sexually direct remarks
on his predicament. Being the centre of attention with his lower half naked while lying on a mattress he has to endure the
embarassment of public scrutiny. Some girls are even allowed to watch the brother's manhood being exposed before the blood spurt
from the cutting of the foreskin.
The entire circumcision event affect the girls sensuality more as the boys were kept exposed in the hall while recuperating for a week.
Such family celebration of manhood is not found in any other culture. This ritual is not surprisingly led by the women in the
family as they have to prepare the kenduris. The sexually charge environment can only enhanced a girl knowledge and curiosity.
Of course most Malay girls themselves are circumcised though this is not spoken as much in the family. But the process of female circumcision
is no less interesting with the girls naked legs spread apart to allow the circumcision at a young age, it brought their sexuality to the fore.
Whispering among the women folk brought sex awareness early to the girls.
Another aspect is the body shape of Malay women which are generally curvaceous e.g Ziana Zain, Sofia Jane etc. Compare this to the extreme thin Singaporean Chinese body shape and it is not surprising that Singaporean have the least interest in sex. Voluptuosness must come with a certain fat.
The relax lifestyle too allows more for more sexual exploration while the stress of competition takes away the interest of most other
races. And the erotic lifestyle is carried on in pantuns and public flirting..thus Malay women are exposed to such sensual environment
that is carried on in the bedroom.
Malay women talk too is highly sexualised from what I personally hear...and this does not mean vulgar talk but rather highly sexualised
content which you can hear in most office as they describe their exploits...
And what about the jamu and the kacip fatimah potions which help to tightened their parts have been around for centuries. Thus Malay women
expect to enjoy sex and are prepared to take positive actions such taking jamu medications so they can performed better.
And of course the tudung which are drummed into the young girls they have to wear because they are sexually alluring to men. While most
girls in other culture are slow to aware of their effects on men, Malays girls are told at puberty to cover their body parts thus enhancing their
sensual awareness.
To be continued
the thiing is that here in east africa, the teenaged girls are also made very publicly aware of the circumcision of pubescent boys in their midst. there is so much pomp and ritual abt the whole affair that no matter how naive and mushroomed the girls are, they become aware of the changing sexuality of themselves and their peers. so no matter how u insist that the circumcision is aimed at controlling womenfolk as a chattel not to eff-around, the fact is uultimately, the whole ritual of circumcision makes them most aware of sex at a very young and tender age!
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 23 2007, 02:37 AM)
okay, this interesting snippet from a malay blogger, i know this thread isn't targetted at the malays alone but since they are the only ones i know whose religion actively encourages circumcision rites just as the tribes here do, i will post it here for discussion:
the thiing is that here in east africa, the teenaged girls are also made very publicly aware of the circumcision of pubescent boys in their midst. there is so much pomp and ritual abt the whole affair that no matter how naive and mushroomed the girls are, they become aware of the changing sexuality of themselves and their peers. so no matter how u insist that the circumcision is aimed at controlling womenfolk as a chattel not to eff-around, the fact is uultimately, the whole ritual of circumcision makes them most aware of sex at a very young and tender age!
the thiing is that here in east africa, the teenaged girls are also made very publicly aware of the circumcision of pubescent boys in their midst. there is so much pomp and ritual abt the whole affair that no matter how naive and mushroomed the girls are, they become aware of the changing sexuality of themselves and their peers. so no matter how u insist that the circumcision is aimed at controlling womenfolk as a chattel not to eff-around, the fact is uultimately, the whole ritual of circumcision makes them most aware of sex at a very young and tender age!
Sorry I don't understand this, are you in support of female circumcision for sexual awareness? Or just male circumcision?
i am horrified by FGM and its barbaric practices here in AFrica... but i feel that an outright ban is not the correct way to deal with these tribal legacies. i am trying to know what is being done in south east asia and if there are possible ways for a people to evolve their customs and mindsets.
some folks say that circumcision is just a way to control their women, but i am juz curious abt what the blogger pointed out which is that the way circumcision rituals are carried out in reality, they make the young women more aware of sex at a very young age.. and the fact is, despite all the talk abt control and stuff, the young men and women in these societies where circumcision takes place as a custom are rather promiscuous. so, it's juz a veneer... and for an NGO to go tell these people to quit their barbaric practice .. these folks aren't going to buy that moral high ground argument from a foreigner or an NGO.
They need to be convinced themselves.. people need to be convince themselves that change is good. People don't change juz cus u tell them they need to change.
They need to see for themselves how they are living a lie anyways with all the religious hocus pocus surrounding these ancient practices... they should quit deluding themselves abt the chastity of circumcised women and men... and how they can possibly evolve their practices with the times and preserve the dignity of their men and women..
i actually have a fren here from Somalia who tells me that she would rather be circumcised than be ostracised by her clan ... her sister says the same thing.. it's about face and dignity..
some folks say that circumcision is just a way to control their women, but i am juz curious abt what the blogger pointed out which is that the way circumcision rituals are carried out in reality, they make the young women more aware of sex at a very young age.. and the fact is, despite all the talk abt control and stuff, the young men and women in these societies where circumcision takes place as a custom are rather promiscuous. so, it's juz a veneer... and for an NGO to go tell these people to quit their barbaric practice .. these folks aren't going to buy that moral high ground argument from a foreigner or an NGO.
They need to be convinced themselves.. people need to be convince themselves that change is good. People don't change juz cus u tell them they need to change.
They need to see for themselves how they are living a lie anyways with all the religious hocus pocus surrounding these ancient practices... they should quit deluding themselves abt the chastity of circumcised women and men... and how they can possibly evolve their practices with the times and preserve the dignity of their men and women..
i actually have a fren here from Somalia who tells me that she would rather be circumcised than be ostracised by her clan ... her sister says the same thing.. it's about face and dignity..
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 24 2007, 02:18 PM)
i am horrified by FGM and its barbaric practices here in AFrica... but i feel that an outright ban is not the correct way to deal with these tribal legacies. i am trying to know what is being done in south east asia and if there are possible ways for a people to evolve their customs and mindsets.
some folks say that circumcision is just a way to control their women, but i am juz curious abt what the blogger pointed out which is that the way circumcision rituals are carried out in reality, they make the young women more aware of sex at a very young age.. and the fact is, despite all the talk abt control and stuff, the young men and women in these societies where circumcision takes place as a custom are rather promiscuous. so, it's juz a veneer... and for an NGO to go tell these people to quit their barbaric practice .. these folks aren't going to buy that moral high ground argument from a foreigner or an NGO.
They need to be convinced themselves.. people need to be convince themselves that change is good. People don't change juz cus u tell them they need to change.
They need to see for themselves how they are living a lie anyways with all the religious hocus pocus surrounding these ancient practices... they should quit deluding themselves abt the chastity of circumcised women and men... and how they can possibly evolve their practices with the times and preserve the dignity of their men and women..
i actually have a fren here from Somalia who tells me that she would rather be circumcised than be ostracised by her clan ... her sister says the same thing.. it's about face and dignity..
some folks say that circumcision is just a way to control their women, but i am juz curious abt what the blogger pointed out which is that the way circumcision rituals are carried out in reality, they make the young women more aware of sex at a very young age.. and the fact is, despite all the talk abt control and stuff, the young men and women in these societies where circumcision takes place as a custom are rather promiscuous. so, it's juz a veneer... and for an NGO to go tell these people to quit their barbaric practice .. these folks aren't going to buy that moral high ground argument from a foreigner or an NGO.
They need to be convinced themselves.. people need to be convince themselves that change is good. People don't change juz cus u tell them they need to change.
They need to see for themselves how they are living a lie anyways with all the religious hocus pocus surrounding these ancient practices... they should quit deluding themselves abt the chastity of circumcised women and men... and how they can possibly evolve their practices with the times and preserve the dignity of their men and women..
i actually have a fren here from Somalia who tells me that she would rather be circumcised than be ostracised by her clan ... her sister says the same thing.. it's about face and dignity..
Cool.
As far as I understand the biggest practitioners of female circumcision is in African nations and you're right in my experience the Africans are quite promiscuous. I'm personally horrified by female circumcision and I think cultures in these societies need to change but if adult females choose to have it done, there isn't much that the rest of us can say isn't it. The last thing the rest of us should do is take the moral highground, it would achieve nothing. But I cringe when I hear of an infant girl being circumcised the decision being made for her. I don't have any solution to the problem. Its not for the rest of us to impose our moral values on other people and we should respect other peoples right to practice their choice of lifestyle so long as it doesn't enchroach on the rights of others. I hope things will change, but I don't think its for us to change it.
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Jun 25 2007, 02:33 AM)
Its not for the rest of us to impose our moral values on other people and we should respect other peoples right to practice their choice of lifestyle so long as it doesn't enchroach on the rights of others. I hope things will change, but I don't think its for us to change it.
That's what I think ... but i just found out that some guys shave their balls... is that another lifestyle choice or juz some kinky $hit they're pullin?
eeeeeeeeeeeek
Every Filipino males that i know in the Philippines are circumcised, and if hes not... he will be rediculed as pre-pubescent. I do not know any female Filipinas in the Philippines that are circumcised. I do have 2 Male Filipino friends here in NY that are born and raised here that are not circumcised. Ya, i think female circumcision is cruel.
Really? in SE Asia it's practiced? why is that? and in Malaysia too? I thought it was an Islamic country...why are they following a pre-Islamic Arab traditon? or is it a tradition of the indigenous tribe? how about in Indonesia, do you know?
surprising because in Islam there is only one narration of the prophet Muhammad which tells about a woman in Medina asking the prophet about the practice of female circumsition and the reply was that it is ok BUT ONLY A MINOR CUT (interpreted as the only the hood/skin covering the clitoris) and then he added that the clitoris (this word wasn't used at that time of course, but he was referring to it) good for the woman and her husband (note: I'm not making an exact quote here)
HOWEVER, the chain of narration is not sound and even the compiler of this narration (Abu Dawud) thinks it is weak....
also Al-Azhar University in Cairo has made female circumsition illegal
surprising because in Islam there is only one narration of the prophet Muhammad which tells about a woman in Medina asking the prophet about the practice of female circumsition and the reply was that it is ok BUT ONLY A MINOR CUT (interpreted as the only the hood/skin covering the clitoris) and then he added that the clitoris (this word wasn't used at that time of course, but he was referring to it) good for the woman and her husband (note: I'm not making an exact quote here)
HOWEVER, the chain of narration is not sound and even the compiler of this narration (Abu Dawud) thinks it is weak....
also Al-Azhar University in Cairo has made female circumsition illegal
in Buddhist country they don't do it unless for some medical issue
like indochina but the Christian and islamic country i think they do it
i think they should ban female but not male.
like indochina but the Christian and islamic country i think they do it
i think they should ban female but not male.
i think female circumcision is not an islamic tradition, but rather a nomadic one that started from way back in Judaic times probably, and got handed down when the nomadic semitic tribes migrate from the fertile crescent all over the place
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Aug 11 2007, 12:27 AM)
That's what I think ... but i just found out that some guys shave their balls... is that another lifestyle choice or juz some kinky $hit they're pullin?eeeeeeeeeeeek
Some older guys don't have to worry about hair removal .... it starts to fall out naturally. 
Circumcision is a topic that will draw some very strong emotional responses.
Perhaps we need to define what exactly is meant by circumcision, in different parts of the world.
My limited experience is with Indonesia.
I have seen how a 10 year old boy had his foreskin cut off in the city of Pontianak.
He was given an injection, which my gf told me was to stop pain and a disinfectant was poured over his penis to prevent infection.
A metal ring was placed around his penis head, the foreskin was pulled over it and then cut around with a scalpel.
The boy was dressed up for the ritual and was a happy, willing participant, but he did appear to experience some distress and had to be restrained by several men during the ritual.
Afterwards he flashed a proud grin at the mixed crowd of onlookers, and there was a party with lots of presents for the boy.
My gf told me that all boys in Indonesia were circumcised. That is: they had their foreskin removed.
She also told me that all Muslim girls in Indonesia had a "circumcision" ritual as well.
But she claimed that different areas of Indonesia had different cutting practices.
I was told that most girls are circumcised as infants and that the Indonesian government has banned the practice of partial or full removal of the clitoris and labia or cauterising with a hot iron.
For example: one ritual for girls simply involved a pin prick to draw a drop of blood.
So it would seem that Indonesian girls do not have their labia cut off, vagina stitched up, or clitoris removed, and are thus fully capable of enjoying the pleasures of intimacy.
I was told by my Indonesian friends that circumcision was a religious ritual which all Muslims must have.
They also claimed that it has scientifically proven health benefits.
They laughed when I told them that I was not circumcised and claimed that my penis must look ugly.
It was suggested that I would be more attractive to my gf if I had the foreskin cut off.
I told them that my penis never had any health problems due to foreskin and that my gf did not think I was ugly.
They asked me why I wanted to look different and said that people will think I am strange if I look different from all the other guys.
I was told that even non-Muslims in Indonesia prefer to be circumcised, because of peer group pressure and because this ritual was part of Indonesian culture.
Everyone reminded me that if I want to marry my gf, then it was an Indonesian tradition that I must be circumcised.
So to sum up it appears that; circumcision in Indonesia means foreskin removal for boys, but for girls the exact procedure can vary a bit, but it seems that the vast majority of the girls do not suffer from any genital mutilation and enjoy a happy sex-life.
The circumcision ritual is seen as both a religious and social or traditional part of Indonesian culture and believed to have health benefits and to make the male penis cosmetically more attractive.
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jun 19 2007, 11:37 PM)
so i met this girl who was campaigning for the end to circumcision as a practice here in africa. she said that many of the traditional practices here are tribal in origin, and come from a primitive urge to control the lives of their womenfolk. much of the ritual and practice here is quite backward in the sense that the circumcision usually ends up as what they technically call 'genital mutilation' especially for the girls. boys circumcisions are not as messy..
i told her that circumcision is still done on millions of asians in SE Asia as it is a religious practice stemming from the origins of Judaism and now carried on by Islam. but much of the circumcisions carried out in Asia are clinically done in hospitals with proper laser equipment and stuff. She was horrified to find out that muslims in asia do circumcise their baby girls too.
i told her that respect for tradition and ritual should still continue if they are willing to evolve with the times and technology, what is wrong with that idea of circumcision if the families subscribe to that practice as a cultural tradition? who are we to say whose practice is savage and whose is civilised??
what do u think?? is circumcision common in Singapore, Msia and Indonesia? Howabt thailand?
i told her that circumcision is still done on millions of asians in SE Asia as it is a religious practice stemming from the origins of Judaism and now carried on by Islam. but much of the circumcisions carried out in Asia are clinically done in hospitals with proper laser equipment and stuff. She was horrified to find out that muslims in asia do circumcise their baby girls too.
i told her that respect for tradition and ritual should still continue if they are willing to evolve with the times and technology, what is wrong with that idea of circumcision if the families subscribe to that practice as a cultural tradition? who are we to say whose practice is savage and whose is civilised??
what do u think?? is circumcision common in Singapore, Msia and Indonesia? Howabt thailand?
I think Circumcision must stay! in the Philippines the Majority of men is circumcised!
If you're not circumcised it can have risks such as infection.......I think!
QUOTE(Ralf @ Aug 11 2007, 02:23 PM)
She also told me that all Muslim girls in Indonesia had a "circumcision" ritual as well.
But she claimed that different areas of Indonesia had different cutting practices.
I was told that most girls are circumcised as infants and that the Indonesian government has banned the practice of partial or full removal of the clitoris and labia or cauterising with a hot iron.
For example: one ritual for girls simply involved a pin prick to draw a drop of blood.
So it would seem that Indonesian girls do not have their labia cut off, vagina stitched up, or clitoris removed, and are thus fully capable of enjoying the pleasures of intimacy.
But she claimed that different areas of Indonesia had different cutting practices.
I was told that most girls are circumcised as infants and that the Indonesian government has banned the practice of partial or full removal of the clitoris and labia or cauterising with a hot iron.
For example: one ritual for girls simply involved a pin prick to draw a drop of blood.
So it would seem that Indonesian girls do not have their labia cut off, vagina stitched up, or clitoris removed, and are thus fully capable of enjoying the pleasures of intimacy.
I did not know that, b/c the females in my family was not circumcised. Is it really something done in all parts of Indonesia or just certain parts. I think you said that your gf is from kalimantan? Not that I'm doubting your gf's info, it's just that this whole thing about female circumcision (of which I've only discovered 3 wks ago) is shocking to me
oh, about the whole festivity with boy's circumcision ritual...I just think it's something that is very private....just a personal opinion -off topic, sorry!
The funny thing is not much survey is done in this area of female genital circumcision in Southeast Asia. Most of the surveys have been done in Africa on the nomadic tribes where such practice is carried out to this day in the most horrific manner, and the plight of these women have been brought to light in overseas communities in London or Paris... also a couple of famous models like Somali born ladies (Iman or Ware Dere??) have wrote books and campaigned against FGM
most people around the world accepts the male circumcision (foreskin) as humane and even a health thing....but female circumcision is very debatable if it can be considered as a health thing. Most of the NGOs working here against FGM treat it as a barbaric practice handed down from the Middle Ages in order to control women like livestock or chattel..... they say that whether it's a small cut or a big one, it's all about control and not anything sensible.
most people around the world accepts the male circumcision (foreskin) as humane and even a health thing....but female circumcision is very debatable if it can be considered as a health thing. Most of the NGOs working here against FGM treat it as a barbaric practice handed down from the Middle Ages in order to control women like livestock or chattel..... they say that whether it's a small cut or a big one, it's all about control and not anything sensible.
I love the clitoris please dont cut itttttttttt
^ oh ya? hey! ask yr mommy to fry u chicken wings instead!
QUOTE(Balot @ Jun 20 2007, 10:01 AM)
talking about experience.. LOL
hey where have you been? i missed pissing you off balot...
not from experience... i watched this porn once and the guy was uncircumcized... i was
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Aug 12 2007, 06:29 PM)
The funny thing is not much survey is done in this area of female genital circumcision in Southeast Asia. Most of the surveys have been done in Africa on the nomadic tribes where such practice is carried out to this day in the most horrific manner....
I posted a link to a SE Asian FC survey below.All the really distressing reports that I have read in the newspapers, were about the African FGM cases.
The media focus was always on Africa, and back in the early 90s I saw one English and one French documentary about those tribal circumcision practices in Somalia, also referred to as female genital mutilation (FGM). The filmed footage of the actual circumcisions being done on young girls was shocking for me. I was shocked for several reasons:
The girls had no choice in the matter;
the "surgery" conditions were crude and barbaric without any form of anaesthetic or disinfectant;
the entire clitoris was excised so the pleasure and intimate bonding of sex would forever be unknown to the girls;
extra procedures involved cutting off the labia and stitching the vagina closed, with only a little hole for fluid to get out.
Now, the thing that shocked me the most, was that adult women interviewed clearly stated that they were proud to be circumcised.
Some women even claimed they had pleasurable sensations during sex, which indicates that some circumcisions must be more symbolic in nature, rather than a total removal of the sensitive parts. Even those women who had severe medical problems giving birth, or rectal dysfunction, due to extreme infibulation, they still maintained that in their experience, circumcision was a rite of passage in their culture, and not a violation of rights.
Many international non-government organisations have been campaigning to outlaw all female circumcision.
The image of well-intentioned NGOs storming into Somalia brings to mind other images of over-grown boyscouts storming into Iraq to dump democracy on a people who have absolutely no experience in such a thing.
It seems to me that the key word here is experience.
The experiences of the Somalian women interviewed in those documentaries were positive, but their experiences were extremely limited.
They had no experience outside of their ritualistic tribal lifestyle.
They could not possibly imagine the lifestyles of people - women with a huge range of choices and responsibilities - existing in other cultures around the world.
They had no experience in the vast opportunities offered by the universal civilisation that is slowly, but surely, growing in the outside world.
QUOTE(alfan @ Aug 12 2007, 04:57 PM)
Is it really something done in all parts of Indonesia or just certain parts. I think you said that your gf is from Kalimantan? Not that I'm doubting your gf's info, it's just that this whole thing about female circumcision (of which I've only discovered 3 wks ago) is shocking to me.
Before my travels to Indonesia, I had no idea that this culture also practised female circumcision.As I wrote in my previous post, the Indonesian custom of FC appears to be largely symbolic in nature and harmless.
I did a search on the internet and found one research study that focused on Indonesia.
The study was carried out by the Ministry for Women's Empowerment and Population Council Jakarta, with funding from USAID(United States Agency for International Development).
The study does seem to raise some concerns. I have only skimmed through it (a total of 56 pages including references, appendices etc) but there are indications that more extreme variations of FC are practised around Padang on the west coast of Sumatra. Here is the pdf of the statistics and analysis.
QUOTE(alfan @ Aug 12 2007, 04:57 PM)
oh, about the whole festivity with boy's circumcision ritual...I just think it's something that is very private....just a personal opinion.
I am very squeamish about such things (runs and hides). My gf and many others made photos. The whole thing looked to me like a cross between a solemn ritual and a birthday party. 
Now for something really nice !
Dewi told me that where she comes from, the pleasurable female part is colloqially referred to as "Mrs. Cheerful".
I love it, that is so cute !
^hahaha, that is cute...and the male's should be called mr. spunky
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Aug 10 2007, 09:27 AM)
That's what I think ... but i just found out that some guys shave their balls... is that another lifestyle choice or juz some kinky $hit they're pullin?
eeeeeeeeeeeek
eeeeeeeeeeeek
I asked a guy to take his pants off once so I could examine his testicles(he was c/o testicualr pain) imagine my surprise when I realised he was as smooth as a baby's bottom. First time I'd seen it
.But apparently just as some guys like their partners shaven, some girls do too.
^ doc! how did u knw they was smooth like a baby's bottom unless u ran your hand over them!!!!!
how did u knw they was smooth like a baby's bottom unless u ran your hand over them!!!!!
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Aug 12 2007, 07:40 AM)
^ oh ya? hey! ask yr mommy to fry u chicken wings instead!
is this supposed to be insulting
no no no
should not be banned
should not be banned
gadis, u must be circumcised rite as a Malaysian malay? did your go under the knife? whats it like? or u dn't remember cuz u were a baby? 
I am very curious to hear the viewpoints of SE Asian women and men who have had the circumcision ritual.
hoho.. Ralf, my colleague from Uganda said today that for a guy to be circumcised when he's older is agonizing... he said that taking a shower after the n!p is like "kissing the sun in all its full force", it's better to do it while u are still a kid...
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Aug 14 2007, 02:55 AM)
hoho.. Ralf, my colleague from Uganda said today that for a guy to be circumcised when he's older is agonizing... he said that taking a shower after the n!p is like "kissing the sun in all its full force", it's better to do it while u are still a kid...
As our resident Doc can testify, it heals up really well when you get it done young. My local GP and surgeon told me some horror stories about men who had circumcisions late in life and it went terribly wrong.
So you must understand that I am scared.
There is a lot of pressure from my gf and her family for me to become Muslim and get circumcised.
I have no objection to a symbolic conversion into the faith, but I am not keen on getting my pecker cut at my age.
Can't they just give me a pin prick, like they do for most Indonesian girls ?
I put it to her mother and step-father : why should I cut off something that God gave me ?
frankly, this is something i don't get ... it's just too .... draconian!!! i don't know if the Jewish do that too? like do u have to get the n!p if u marry a Jewish girl?
what do girls have to do when they marry a muslim guy? do they have to go through clitorial circumcision??
what do girls have to do when they marry a muslim guy? do they have to go through clitorial circumcision??
ok, in Kenya, many tribes consider male circumcision a rite of passage which if u don't do it, u are still a child. but some tribes don't practise this, for example the Luos (near Lake Victoria).
so my colleague who is Luo wanted to marry a Kalenjin (nilotic nomadic tribe who always circumcise jus like the masais) girl and he had to go through the ritual with a knife and a witch doctor laibon ceremony.......... arrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhh... he said the build up of mental anguish and suffering is worse than the cut itself. however, he has never known any pain like it before when he went into a shower for the first time after the n!p... (we were in hysterics by this time of his self-confessed story of his life....hahahahah
)
so my colleague who is Luo wanted to marry a Kalenjin (nilotic nomadic tribe who always circumcise jus like the masais) girl and he had to go through the ritual with a knife and a witch doctor laibon ceremony.......... arrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhh... he said the build up of mental anguish and suffering is worse than the cut itself. however, he has never known any pain like it before when he went into a shower for the first time after the n!p... (we were in hysterics by this time of his self-confessed story of his life....hahahahah
)
nothin turns me on like a circumsized woman
^ dat's probably what all the men in the nomadic tribes think as well!!!
"I want a WOMAN who is cirucmcised!"
"I want a WOMAN who is cirucmcised!"
My quote for ralf:
My gf told me that all boys in Indonesia were circumcised. That is: they had their foreskin removed.
She also told me that all Muslim girls in Indonesia had a "circumcision" ritual as well.
But she claimed that different areas of Indonesia had [i]different cutting practices.[/i]
This one must be scarie...
I was told that most girls are circumcised as infants and that the Indonesian government has banned the practice of partial or full removal of the clitoris and labia or cauterising with a hot iron.
For example: one ritual for girls simply involved a pin prick to draw a drop of blood.
So it would seem that Indonesian girls do not have their labia cut off, vagina stitched up, or clitoris removed, and are thus fully capable of enjoying the pleasures of intimacy.
I never heard of this one!
I was told by my Indonesian friends that circumcision was a religious ritual which all Muslims must have.
They also claimed that it has scientifically proven health benefits.
Only if you want to marry her than you'll be in that position...hehehehe
I was told that even non-Muslims in Indonesia prefer to be circumcised, because of peer group pressure and because this ritual was part of Indonesian culture.
I second that. This is part of Muslim culture and rule but non-muslim who wants to be like it must have their very own reason but again I knew not many of them.
Everyone reminded me that if I want to marry my gf, then it was an Indonesian tradition that I must be circumcised.
Poor you..... but that's the way it is!
The circumcision ritual is seen as both a religious and social or traditional part of Indonesian culture and believed to have health benefits and to make the male penis cosmetically more attractive.
Not very sure about this....
PS: after all I knew that most people said it would be healthy so no germs get in to it of hide in there. That's why don't share with anyone else but only your wife! That's simple as that.
* circumcised: This is not an Indonesian culture but the muslim Indonesian culture followed the old Bible or the Quran.
My gf told me that all boys in Indonesia were circumcised. That is: they had their foreskin removed.
She also told me that all Muslim girls in Indonesia had a "circumcision" ritual as well.
But she claimed that different areas of Indonesia had [i]different cutting practices.[/i]
This one must be scarie...
I was told that most girls are circumcised as infants and that the Indonesian government has banned the practice of partial or full removal of the clitoris and labia or cauterising with a hot iron.
For example: one ritual for girls simply involved a pin prick to draw a drop of blood.
So it would seem that Indonesian girls do not have their labia cut off, vagina stitched up, or clitoris removed, and are thus fully capable of enjoying the pleasures of intimacy.
I never heard of this one!
I was told by my Indonesian friends that circumcision was a religious ritual which all Muslims must have.
They also claimed that it has scientifically proven health benefits.
Only if you want to marry her than you'll be in that position...hehehehe
I was told that even non-Muslims in Indonesia prefer to be circumcised, because of peer group pressure and because this ritual was part of Indonesian culture.
I second that. This is part of Muslim culture and rule but non-muslim who wants to be like it must have their very own reason but again I knew not many of them.
Everyone reminded me that if I want to marry my gf, then it was an Indonesian tradition that I must be circumcised.
Poor you..... but that's the way it is!
The circumcision ritual is seen as both a religious and social or traditional part of Indonesian culture and believed to have health benefits and to make the male penis cosmetically more attractive.
Not very sure about this....
PS: after all I knew that most people said it would be healthy so no germs get in to it of hide in there. That's why don't share with anyone else but only your wife! That's simple as that.
* circumcised: This is not an Indonesian culture but the muslim Indonesian culture followed the old Bible or the Quran.
Is female circumcision where they excise/eliminate the clitoris, in that case it's really brutal....almost equivalent to chopping the penis off...
QUOTE(han2 @ Aug 14 2007, 01:31 AM)
Is female circumcision where they excise/eliminate the clitoris, in that case it's really brutal....almost equivalent to chopping the penis off...
Yes... han2, did you receive my msg?
Where have you been?Imagine if you P for male get cut off... oh no!!!
I wouldn't let anyone near my precious thing unless I said so...
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