I found this thread in the Thai Chat extremely interesting... someone is saying that the shorter the surname, the more of a higher status they are in the Thai society....or in actual fact, the shorter the surname the more native they are. Which means many chinese thais tend to have seriously long surnames as they are trying to assimilate to the Thai society.. is that more or less the same also in Indonesia??

Err... Surnames mean different things to different ethnicities in Indonesia. For example, surnames of Bataks ethnicities are actually clan names, from which they can trace their lineage back to the tribal times. Most of the times, people can tell your ethnicity just by looking into the surnames. If you are Pasaribu, Sitinjak, Hasibuan, you are a batak. If you are Sahanaya, Lawalata then you are a Manadonese. If you are Mallarangeng, you are a Makasaresse/Buginese.

Clan names are especially unique for Minang people as children belongs to their mother's clan and the father is the only one in a nuclear family with a different clan.

Most Indonesians, however, are Javanese. Javanese doesn't have a tradition of surnames. Some Javanese surnames that you can find usually belong to the noble-blooded people only. There are a lot of ethnicities whose traditions doesn't require surnames either (such as Malay, Sundanese, etc). And Indonesian law doesn't require citizens to have one either.

Sooo.... if you're asking about Chinese-Indonesians, they are not required to have surname either. Some of them do, some just don't feel the need to have one. Some who decided to have Indonesian surnames, though, carefully thought their surnames so they are both meaningful and more often than not, contained their Chinese surname. For example, someone with Chinese surname of "Tam" would choose to have "Tamrin" as his/her surname. Or "Lim" in "Salim", "Ko" in Kohandi, "Chan" in "Chandrawinata", etc.

Really?? I know abt the Indo celebs like the Miss Indonesia.. she's Nadine Chandrawinata but she's not Chinese. She's Indo-German.

My Chinese Indonesian friend have surnames like Chadra... so their chinese surname Cha, Dra?? lolx.. Jaspadi... Jas, Pa, Di, Padi?? lolz.

dont sound chinese at all..

here's the link:

Nadine Chandrawinata

hope this helps...

ok. But my other pure Indo Chinese friends have surnames like Jaspadi, Andra, Agustin, ??????sono, Wijaya(Chinese and Native), Winata...

But those surnames dont sound Chinese. 2 friends with Wijaya as surnames. One is a pure Chinese. Another is a pure Native.

Bye!

In ancient Indonesia people with higher status often had long sanskirt origin name
Pramodhawardhani (Syailendran Princess)
Sri Isyana Tunggawisesa (Isyana King)
Mahendradatta Gunapriyadarmapatni (Balinese Queen)
Dharmodayana Warmadewa (Balinese King)
Tribhuwanottunggadewi Jayawishnuwardhani (Majapahit Queen)
Gayatri Rajapatni (Majapahit Queen)

Oh yeah, higher status Javanese female usually using ending:
"i" like Retno Pudjiastuti, Dewi Sulastri
"um" Ayu Kusumaningrum
"un" Sekar Pembayun

But lower status Javanese women using ending:
"em" Tukiyem, Sariyem, Lasiyem

Oh yeah..., Chinese Indonesian that adopted Indonesian name often using Javanese name or Christian name, but often with Sundanese way of spelling (with "a" not "o"), Gunawan, Setiawan, Waluya, Wijaya, Tanujaya, Kusuma is popular chinese Indonesian name. Often they like to use noble names that sounds really like the name of Sundanese nobles families or descendants of ancient royalties, you know with that "nata" ending. Tommy Winata, Christian Hadinata, etc.
The worst thing is, this chinese Indonesian trends make my real name sounds like I was chinese Indonesian, coz my first name is popular among Javanese or Chinese Indonesian, and my family name has "nata" ending..... although I was native.....

I've read somewhere where during suharto era, chinese indonesian must not have a chinese name..they have to change their name that sounds more like indonesian name..for example, 'Lim'(a chinese name) is changed to 'Halim'..something like that I think..and also even all the shops there must have names that sound indonesian.

@majjy: We're talking about surnames here! Focus, focus!!!

@singapak2: Like what I've said earlier, some of them doesn't bother to have Indonesian surname. "Andra" and "Agustin"? Those are not surnames!!! Indonesian who has second, third, fourth, hundredth name even, doesn't necessarily means s/he has a surname. For example: Susi Susanti. "Susanti" is not her surname! Or Kris Dayanti, "Dayanti" is not her surname either! Glen Fredly, God help me, "Fredly" is not definitely his surname!

@pencakarlangit: Indeed, in Suharto's era, Chinese-Indonesians had to take non-Chinese names due to our sour relationship with communist China at that time. I say non-Chinese, because other names are okay (you name it: Christian, Gaelic, Greek, Arabic, Japanese, etc). So in previous era, if someone had a Chinese name, there's a high possibility that he/she was not a citizen of Indonesia.

In surnames' case, though. The government of Indonesia never asks its citizen to have any. So event hough Chinese-Indonesians took names that familiar to Indonesians, surnames are only optional. Susi Susanti is a perfect example, both "Susi" and "Susanti" are given names, none of them is a surname.

Heey, at first Tanga talk about long or short name, then the surname. (btw, I have one)
I also talk about how chinese Indonesian adopt noble Javanese-Sundanese surname/family name; you know that "nata" things, Tommy Winata, Christian Hadinata, etc.... very similar to my surname.....

Thx guys, so it seems that we can summarise as follows :

1. surnames are not used in Indonesia ... and

2. contrary to the Thai custom, the longer one's name is in Indonesia, the more likelihood of noble blood connection there is.. especially with name suffixes llike 'um', 'i' or 'un'.

3. Lower status suffix is 'em'.

4. While chiinese name suffixes tend to be 'wan' or 'nata'

If Indonesian names do not have surnames, howabout the chinese-indonesians? what happened to their original surnames? don't they keep the clan or family surname intact in the conversion of their names to bahasa??

Tangyyy.... I've already explained those points!

1. Surnames are used in Indonesia, but not all of us have them, and the government doesn't require us to have one either. But for those who do have them (like Bataks, Manadonese, some Chinese,etc) wear them proudly.

2. Yeah, something like that. But not always.

3. Same as the above, not always.

4. Not only those suffixes. Like I was saying before, those who have Indonesian surnames incorporated their Chinese surname onto their Indonesian surname.

Examples:
Chinese Surname = Indonesian Surname
Tan = Tanujaya
Lim = Salim
Chan = Chandrawinata

Those are how Chinese Indonesians typically create their Indonesian Surname. Example: Lim Sieo Liong became Sudono Salim.

So, relating to the issue of surnames, there are at least 3 types of Chinese Indonesians:
1. Those who adopt Indonesian name and doesn't care about taking any surnames. Example: Susi Susanti, where Susanti is not a surname.
2. Those who incorporate their Chinese surname onto their Indonesian surname. Example: Sudono Salim, where Salim is derived from Lim.
3. Those who keep their original Chinese surname. Example: Ivana Lie.

so Bhas, can we same the same for Indonesia as in the Thai surnames that are short and therefore more authentic? That those indonesian folks like Ivana Lie is more chinese than say Susi Susanti or Agnes Monica?

The answer is no, and no.
1. No, because AFAIK, a surname can be as short or as long as it can be, and all it can give you is the information of the clan they are representing.

2. No, because surnames got nothing to do with the way you interact with your surrounding. I know for real someone with the last name Setianegara (which means "loyal to the country"), yet he is very Chinese-minded. Compare this to Soe Hok Gie, even with his Chinese name he was more of a nationalist than most of the people who call themselves as "native Indonesians".

Of course the opposite might also be true. Like the guy that we love and adore here in AF, purnomor who is a Hokkien/Hakka, and a die-hard nationalist.
Where are you, dude? I miss you!

i think Madja explained it generally....village people usually have name ended with "em" but it doesnt mean they have lower status, yes, most of them are poor but it doesnt mean they name their children with suffix "em" because they're poor...its just the mater of culture....their ancestor use that kinda name so they use it...is that right majja?

CMIIW,people in some provinces put royal symbol in their name too...like Tengku in Riau or Raden in Java...

I agree with you on the 1st point, peccy. I feel sad that nowadays people avoid altogether using that kind of names, when in reality it's that kind of names which are "truly "Indonesia".

And for the second paragraph of yours.... those are not surnames, those are titles!!! I'm gonna have to ban you!!!

I have a Singaporean Malay(Bugis ethnic) who has a name star with Daing... everyone in her family have the name.
My grandpa has Syed as the first name and everyone in his family have it.

But lots of people call Syed, Daing, Tengku etc as family names..

Those are actually titles.... not all of those who have "Teuku" in front of their names are related, d'uh!
Actually this discussion doesn't belong here. But in Aceh, Teuku is a noble title for men (Cut Nyak for women, I think), while Tengku is the title for clerics (ulama). Tengku is also used in Malay Riau if I'm not mistaken, and it's used by both women and men.

We have lots and lots of titles in Indonesia, each ethnicity have sets of their own. South Sulawesi, the homeland of Buginese and Makassarese have titles such as Daeng (Makassarese, for men) and Andi (Buginese, both women and men). Ever heard of Andi Meriam Matalatta or Andi Mallarangeng? Andi is their title, and Matalatta and Mallarangeng are their surnames.

Laden is a father's name... lolx..

Yeah, it annoys me when western people think use "Bin..." as they were surnames. "Mr. Bin Ladin, please shave your beard"

Oh yeah, I know that Muslim Malaysians male use "Bin" (son of), and the female use "Bte". What "Bte" stands for? In Indonesia, we would only know it by "Binti" (daughter of, I presume).

my grandfather has a surname, except my mother uses her father's first name as her surname. why?

would it be for reasons like muslim malays and their use of 'binti' and 'bin'?

Yeah you right..... nowadays Sartiyem who owned chains of Warteg (Warung Tegal) can faaar be richer than Dewi Sulastri, a widow junior high teacher who also bride's make-up artist (perias pengantin). But Sulastri can trace her ancestry to nobles of Pakubhuwono, Solo, while Sartiyem ancestor is a mere pheasants from Tegal.... You see my point here....? even up until now, Javanese are stratified community....., nobles..., often poor, are proud bunch of people....



You right there's titles turned to name....
Teuku (m) (read Tengku) and Cut (f) for nobles from Aceh
Tuanku (m) for nobles from Minangkabau Sumatran Malay lands (Coastal North Sumatra, Jambi, South Sumatra)
Andi (m/f) (nobles from Bugis)
Ratu (f) and Tubagus (m) nobles from Banten
Ratu (m/f) for descends of ancient Balinese lineage, royalties from Bali
Raden (m/f) (in short "Den") nobles from Java and eastern Priangan (Ciamis and Cirebon).
Mas (m) nobles from eastern Priangan.
CMIIW..... Gusti (m) and Galuh (f) is noble names from Southern Kalimantan...?

purrpie: Yeah, Indonesian Muslims like to use their father's first names behind their own. But usually if they have a surname, they would put their surnames instead. I wonder why your mother put you father's first name? Maybe that's not his surname, maybe it's just his second first name....

majjy: We have what we call "Tutus" and "Jaba" in the Kraton of South Kalimantan, which is determined by the the nobleman/woman's relationship with the ruler (how close they are to the king, and whether they are on the winning king's side or the loser king's). "Tutus" titles are:
1. Pangeran and Ratu
2. Gusti
3. Antung or Raden
4. Nanang or Anang
5. Andin
6. Rama

Bte is the shortform for Binti or some people spell it as Binte.
B is the short form for Bin.

Almost every Muslims use this Bin/Binti. Just go to the Muslim cemetery and you see the names... Ali bin Alif, Intan Binti Ali, Syed Muhammad Ali Aljuneid Bin Syed Mohamed Mohsein Aljuneid etc etc etc.....

Wow... so many honorific noble titles....! Are they still in use in Indonesia?

Yeah, they are.

Who gives out these titles?

Are there still any royal javanese princesses who live like in the old days? having lulur and flower scented baths in the river lakes everyday?

Is the word Bin or Binte an arabic word?

^ Yup it is Arabic.

Even Arab Christians use Bin/Binti.

I got an Indian Muslim friend who uses... s/o aka son of......... Mustafa s/o Alwi

Hmm... who gives out these titles? These titles are passed down from your parents to you. Of course on some special occasion, a board of elders could decide to give out titles to people out of the royalty, but usually the titles are limited and wouldn't be at a high level.

I have met the youngest brother of Megawati Sukarnoputri who was living in Singapore .. i can't remember his name now .. met him at a party. he said he was royalty because his name was Sukarnoputri.. is this name royalty really???

Ergh.. he said that? He must be a fake!
1. "Soekarnoputra" or "Soekarnoputri" is patronymic "surname", it means that they are the son/daughter of Soekarno.
2. So, if he claim his name was "Soekarnoputri', he's claiming that he is a woman.
3. Furthermore, Soekarno is not of royalty. How could a son of a Javanese teacher be one?
If he was a son of Soekarno, claiming to be of royalty, you should just laugh in his face!

What was his name? Guruh Soekarnoputra?

To be frank, i don't remember his name if it was Sukarnoputra or putri or even if it was Guruh, but he was surely a wastrel.. the guy was running away from Indonesia because of something he did back home and his family had sent him to SG so as not to face the music. I think he said he was step-brother of Megawati..same father but not the same mother...

Hmm... maybe he's a fake, or maybe he's not... we'll never know. Aside from his good qualities, Sukarno was also known for his weakness to women...

weakness to woman.............hmmmmmmmmmmmm

Let's just say he's a womanizer.......




Actually Sukarno's mother, Ida Ayu Nyoman Rai is a Balinese Lady, a dear nephew of the King of Singaraja, Bali.
She convert to Islam after married Sukemi Sastrodiharjo.
His father, Raden Sukemi Sastrodihardjo is a teacher..., he also came from noble family. He can trace his ancestry to Javanese royal house.

So Sukarno is blueblooded noble.
Even some Balinese believe that he's an incarnation of Wishnu....., the descendants of long ancient royal lineage from Singhasari, Majapahit to royal house Bali, also they said the true "ruler" of archipelago.....

If his father really was a Raden, Majjy, why didn't he passed down that title to Soekarno? I think it's just glorification by his fans. I bet if it really was the truth, then Soekarno and his children would shamelessly wear that title on their names on every thinkable occassions. Imagine, Raden Ayu Megawati Soekarnoputri or Raden (Ayu? ) Guruh Soekarnoputra

that's a unique case. Anyone care to explain?

Speaking of surname, do you guys know that the Iceland women add "dottir" after their surname? It's very interesting. We don't have a kind like that.

Not all people with noble ancestor would put their "gelar" on their name.....
Probably feelin odd or just for the sake of modesty since it was waaay to far away from their family trees.....
You know...., gettin further from the "kraton",
Probably the same as this case:
Supposed if your great-grandmother is Javanese princess, since she left the Surakarta palace in 1910's becoz she's just one of many King's childrens, just a daughter from a Selir (concubine), then she married lesser noble, moved to another provincial "Kabupaten". She kept reminding her offspring that they have King's blood running in them and must act accordingly like noble (quite arrogant huh.... ). As time goes by, their ofspring would be felt shy or felt too modest to used the "gelar" Raden, or Mas in their name.

In case of Sukarno, probably Raden Sukemi Sastrodihardjo the same case, he fall too far from kraton family trees, but I think he's somehow from noble family too. In case of Sukarno's mother, Ida Ayu Nyoman Rai, it's not a mistake, that she's a Balinese Lady from noble family of Ksatriya caste.

Some Javanese names sound Japanese. Just like the word Javanese and Japanese. Replace V with P, vice versa.

somehow it does sound like japanese name (e.g: Sutomo, Muroto, Sudiro....)

Any profiler would agree that Sukarno was a proud man, I don't think he would hesitate to use that title if it was truly his right to use it. Even if he wasn't, I'm sure all of his children would shamelessly use it. Why, Megawati could use the title to raise her popularity in the ever mystical and feudal Javanese people. Nah, I don't believe that Sukarno's father was a nobleman. His mother? Maybe, but Balinese court is patrilineal, so she had lost her rights to pass that title to her children when she married Sukarno's father.

When i met this son of Sukarno, he gave me the name card that said Sukarnoputra or putri, for sure, they are passing themselves off as noble...

Icelanders use their fathers first name as surname. If a man called Jon Stefansson has a son called Fjalar his surname is not Stefanson as his father but Jonson, that means Son of Jon. The same for girls, a daughter of Jon named Kata, wil have Jonsdottir as surname, daughter of Jon. So the two children of JonStefansson are called Fjalar Jonsson and Kata Jonsdottir

Dunno much about names or surname.....but its great to hear from you bro. How's everything my fren....why you went hiding or did you plant "grass" in our pakalolo island??

Hi KohRico,

No time to come here ayam bizzy with my own forum, which is more of a blog.
Grass must be good bisnis, even without cows

care to PM me your link to your blog bro

nobody answered purp's question...

is it an arabic tradition or something?

That kind of method is what we call patronymics, right? We do that in Indonesia too, not only in Iceland. But not all of us choose to use it.

What question? Putting bin and binti behind your first name? Of course it's Middle Eastern tradition (not only Arabs)

just want to correct your statement a lil bit, Sahanaya and Lawalata are Ambonese, not Manadonese. Manadonese if you have surnames like Kaunang, Karundeng, Manopo, Polii, Lasut, Supit, Wuisan, etc. Chinese people usually buy their Indonesian names, so there's chinese with name from Batak clan like Siregar, Simatupang, etc or Javanese name like Sutono, Suprapto, etc

I think Bhaskara was trying to say Waworuntu (Jeffrey Waworuntu from Minahasa) because his wife's Ruth Sahanaya from Ambon. Hehehehe...