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firdausj
Hahaha... This scenario may be good for the majority of Malaysians, but not for the region ...

QUOTE
Is Malaysia Going Down the Road of Pakistan?
Written by Farish A. Noor
Wednesday, 18 July 2007

The recent announcement made by the Deputy Prime Minister of Malaysia, Najib Tun Razak, to the effect that ‘we (Malaysia) are an Islamic state’ is mind-boggling to say the least. Speaking during a conference in Kuala Lumpur on the theme of ‘The Role of Islamic States in a Globalised World’, the Deputy Prime Minister claimed that Malaysia has ‘never been affiliated’ to a secular position that that Malaysia’s development ‘has been driven by our adherence to the fundamentals of Islam’. (Bernama, 17 July 2007)

One cannot help but wonder if this was a case of a cynical historical revisionism at work, for there is ample historical data to show that the opposite was the case, and that the forefathers of the Malaysian nation – from Tunku Abdul Rahman to his own father Tun Razak and Hussein Onn – were keen to ensure that Malaysia remained a constitutional democracy where the state would play the role of honest broker and govern a Malaysian public that was multi-racial and multi-confessional.

Furthermore the claim that Malaysia is an Islamic state is far-fetched to say the least according to the criteria of traditional Islamic legal orthodoxy and normative Muslim standards of ethics. Would an Islamic state condone the use of laws like the ISA that allow for detention without trial, or laws like the OSA and the Sedition Act? And does Islam explicitly talk about the need to create faith rehabilitation centres where Muslims and non-Muslims are interned to ‘convert’ them to the right (re. State-defined) practices of Islam?

The comments made by the Deputy Prime Minister would suggest a totalising discourse that fails to take into account the pluralism that is at the heart of the Malaysian nation and nation-building project. When he states that ‘we have always been driven by our adherence to the fundamental principles of Islam’, is he referring to the entire Malaysian population that includes not only Muslims but also Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs and peoples of other faiths? Or by the term ‘we’ is he referring to the oligarchy of Malay-Muslim elites who man the helm of UMNO and the ruling National Front alliance that governs the country?

It is therefore not surprising to think that this was yet another case of a Malay-Muslim politician playing to the Malay-Muslim gallery the way that so many other Malay politicians have done in the past. After all, the declaration of Malaysia as an Islamic state was made earlier by former Prime Minister Mahathir; and it was also Mahathir and his former Deputy Anwar Ibrahim who spearheaded the Islamisation programme in Malaysia in the 1980s, taking the country further from its secular constitutional roots and towards a more communitarian register on the basis of Malay-Muslim identity politics.

At this crucial stage in Malaysian history where the Constitution has all but been forgotten, it would be wise to reflect on the mistakes made by other Muslim leaders elsewhere who have brought their countries to the brink of ruin by playing the ‘Islam card’. One country that comes to mind is Pakistan, which today is black-listed as a den of terrorism and has been cast as a pariah state internationally. Yet Pakistan’s slippery slide towards violent sectarian religious politics was not started by conservative Mullahs or even the military dictator General Zia ul Haq, but the secular leader Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.

As soon as he came to power in 1971 Zulfikar Ali Bhutto launched his own ‘people’s revolution’ in Pakistan. While preaching his ideology of ‘Islamic Socialism’ (which Muammar Ghadaffi of Libya also claimed as his idea) Bhutto announced the immediate nationalisation of ten major industries, including iron and steel, basic metals, heavy engineering, petrochemicals and motor vehicles. Bhutto also introduced new legislation that was meant to improve the working conditions of the country’s illiterate and backward workers and peasants. These reforms were inspired in part by the example set by Colonel Muammar Ghadaffi of Libya, and Bhutto’s close contacts with China. During his trips to China, Bhutto had been advised by Mao Tze-Tung and Chao En-Lai to set up a ‘people’s army’ that would support his nationalisation project. The sudden and unexpected nationalisation caused the country’s already weakened economy to collapse completely, sending the stock market downwards and causing the flight of capital from the country.

Fearful of losing the support of the population, Bhutto then began to play the Islamic card as well. He assured the Islamist leaders that his own brand of ‘Islamic Socialism’ had nothing no do with Communism per se and that it was not an atheistic ideology. In 1972 he made a deal with the Jami’at-ul Ulema-i Islam (JUI) under Maulana Mufti Mahmood. Bhutto promised to allow Maulana Mahmood and the JUI to expand their activities in the Northwest Frontier Province (NWFP) as long as they would support his own PPP party in the National and Regional Assemblies. He also promised Islamist parties like the JUI and Maulana Maudoodi’s Jama’at-e Islami (JI) that he would introduce new laws and constitutional amendments that would make Pakistan an Islamic state.

Zulfikar attempted to streamline the process of Islamisation in Pakistan via political and constitutional means. Like Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan before him, he tried to use the state as a means to control and patronise the religious powers in the country. In 1972 Bhutto managed to get Pakistan to host the second OIC summit in Lahore, in an attempt to bolster his own Islamic credentials. By virtue of the 1973 Constitution, the State was officially the guarantor of marriage and the family, the protector of the mother and the child and the guardian of equality before the law by formally prohibiting all forms of sexual discrimination. Yet, the third Constitution of Pakistan had received the tacit assent of one of the most vociferous opponents of Ayub Khan: Maudoodi himself. Maudoodi’s support in the early 70's was understandable for the reasons that the Constitution had for the first time declared Islam as the religion of the State; had imposed the preservation of religious ethos (by prohibiting prostitution, drugs and obscenity) and had laid down the official definition of a proper Muslim (which would serve as the basis for the excommunication of the Ahmadis in 1974). Furthermore, Bhutto had systematically purged his ex-allies from the radical Left with the expressed support of none other than Maudoodi. In return for these efforts of 'purification ' (particularly on the campuses of the country), Maudoodi gave his tacit endorsement to the 1973 Constitution.

But despite all these moves and concessions made in favour of the religious lobbies (including prohibition of alcohol, gambling etc.), the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, appeared to be theocratic in theory but secular in practice. This was the conclusion that the Islamist camp eventually came to by the mid 70's. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's PPP government was caught in a trap of its own making. The feudal Bhutto attempted to present himself as a democrat and a populist, and he introduced many radical policy changes that were destined to have a long-lasting impact on the country itself. He pushed Pakistan into the nuclear race even when it was clear that the country could not sustain such a project either economically or politically. His desire to entrench himself on the terrain of Pakistani politics led to a sustained assault on the country’s civil service and judiciary, and culminated in the formation of his own private para-military force (the Federal Security Force FSF).

Bhutto's crypto-socialist policies also led to the demoralisation of the ruling elite, many of whom took the opportunity to immigrate to the West. In one vital area this was to have a potentially dangerous effect: The higher ranks of the armed forces were no longer the exclusive purview of the ruling elite but was finally left open to the newly emerging urbanised middle classes, who were much more conservative and religiously inclined. In 1976 he picked the comparatively junior General Zia ul Haq as Commander in Chief, in an attempt to pre-empt any coup attempts by more senior generals. This would later prove his undoing.

Today, after decades of Islamisation at the hands of Pakistan’s Mullahs that went unchecked by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and later Zia ul Haq, Pakistan has become an outcast state there religious politics has proven to be divisive and detrimental to the plight of women, non-Muslim minorities and minority sects among Muslims. All of this could have been avoided by sticking to the secular principles of the Pakistani constitution, but that same constitution has been torn to shreds by successive politicians – including Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif – who found it expedient to play the ‘Islamic card’ whenever it suited them, just to garner some cheap votes at the elections. The rest, as they say, is history and that history now weighs heavily of Pakistan and its people.

Is Malaysia heading down the path of Pakistan? Well, at the moment Malaysia has several ‘Islamic’ features that even Pakistan does not have, such as the morality police squads, Islamic detention centres and the like. Thus far from being a model moderate Muslim state that naïve outsiders like Kofi Annan seem to admire so, we seem well on the path of an increasingly divisive, sectarian religiously-based politics that has spun out of control.
tangawizi
I don't think it will go down the path as Pakistan because it is economically vibrant and most Msians have a comfortable upwardly mobile life. Have u seen how decent middle class Pakistanis struggle to make a living in that country? It's so corrupt, far worse than Malaysia!

What is happening though is the 'arabization' of the Malaysian elites. Somehow their elites have decided to discard their cultural compass and adopt 'arabization' increasingly... I would greatly encourage everyone to read and dissect this very long essay on Universal Civilization by Nobel prize laureate VS Naipaul. There he speaks about how :

QUOTE
.... traveling among non-Arab Muslims, I found myself among a colonized people who had been stripped by their faith of all that expanding intellectual life, all the varied life of the mind and senses, the expanding cultural and historical knowledge of the world, that I had been growing into on the other side of the world. I was among people whose identity was more or less contained in the faith. I was among people who wished to be pure.

In Malaysia, they were desperate to rid themselves of their past, desperate to cleanse their people of tribal or animist practices, all the subconscious life, freighted with the past, that links people to the earth on which they walk, all the rich folk life that awakened people elsewhere cultivate and dredge for its poetry. They wish, the more earnest of these Malay Muslims, to be nothing but their imported Arab faith; I got the impression that they would have liked, ideally, to make their minds and souls a blank, an emptiness, so that they could be nothing but their faith. Such effort; such self-imposed tyranny. No colonization could have been greater than this colonization by the faith.


In that essay, he also dissected the peoples of Pakistan articulating the affliction they are undergoing.. read it and be enlightened abt the dilemma of today's world, not juz Malaysia or Pakistan! biggthumpup.gif



swingdoctor
In the 20 odd years that I have been able to look at the situation for myself and form my own opinions, in my view, the divide between the races and the religions has grown wider. I personally believe that the govnt is using religion for its own benefits and it is in BN and therefore UMNO's intrest to keep these divisions. Islam in Malaysia has grown more radical and the use of force and intimidation to promote the agendas of Islam and to a much lesser extent Malays is still tolerated.

Death threats against Lina Joy and her lawyer were not investigated. Rowdy protests against Lina Joys appeal were tolerated. People on this forum, saying it served Lina Joy right for "rocking the boat" when all she's trying to do is practice the religion of her choice. The episode of intimidation of the non Malay Uni students by Malay students, shown on this forum, then escaping punishment from the university. The increased influence of the Syariah Courts. Members of Parliament forced to apologise for speaking out against the NEP when another member wasn't even significantly reprimanded for making a degrading remark against women(that MP that made the remark about womens menses).

Malaysia is a multi racial multi religious country, every religion and every race has their ideals. To unite the country, Malaysians need to see themsleves as Malaysians first, and their race and religions second. This applies to every race, Malay, Chinese and Indian alike. Singapore lives in relative harmony, why can't Malaysia?
caramel
Politicians.

Enough said.
wongfeehung
Yes!!!!! if Sharia Law prevails!!!

The world has enough problems to deal with, without stupid religious conflict!!!!!
ricochet
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Jul 19 2007, 06:22 AM) *
In the 20 odd years that I have been able to look at the situation for myself and form my own opinions, in my view, the divide between the races and the religions has grown wider. I personally believe that the govnt is using religion for its own benefits and it is in BN and therefore UMNO's intrest to keep these divisions. Islam in Malaysia has grown more radical and the use of force and intimidation to promote the agendas of Islam and to a much lesser extent Malays is still tolerated.

Death threats against Lina Joy and her lawyer were not investigated. Rowdy protests against Lina Joys appeal were tolerated. People on this forum, saying it served Lina Joy right for "rocking the boat" when all she's trying to do is practice the religion of her choice. The episode of intimidation of the non Malay Uni students by Malay students, shown on this forum, then escaping punishment from the university. The increased influence of the Syariah Courts. Members of Parliament forced to apologise for speaking out against the NEP when another member wasn't even significantly reprimanded for making a degrading remark against women(that MP that made the remark about womens menses).

Malaysia is a multi racial multi religious country, every religion and every race has their ideals. To unite the country, Malaysians need to see themsleves as Malaysians first, and their race and religions second. This applies to every race, Malay, Chinese and Indian alike. Singapore lives in relative harmony, why can't Malaysia?


well said beerchug.gif
Betong
I thinks Indonesia has more potential to become new Pakistan. And we are not proud of our past Hindu culture and not Indian to begin with. So for this I think Indonesia better fit for this accusations. Go back to your country firdausj. And bring Bung Karno too, he failed to invaded Malaysia before.....
tangawizi
Betong, why do you tink that Indonesia is more likely to turn into another Pakistan before Malaysia? confused.gif

It's true that Pakistan was once in India but it broke away from India. I know that many Indonesian intellectuals and spiritual leaders still remember and practise their indian religious spiritual practice (sufist strain of islam that originally arrived on the shores of Indonesia), and their elites are very strong in their cultural affinity with the Hindu past. But this doesn't mean Indonesia is going down the road of Pakistan? It seems you do not understand what is really happening in Pakistan with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism there.. the fundamentalists there wants to erase India from their minds and maybe one day from the map, who knows?

Do u not see what is happening there is similar to Malaysia's elites?
firdausj
QUOTE(Betong @ Jul 23 2007, 08:11 AM) *
I thinks Indonesia has more potential to become new Pakistan. And we are not proud of our past Hindu culture and not Indian to begin with. So for this I think Indonesia better fit for this accusations. Go back to your country firdausj. And bring Bung Karno too, he failed to invaded Malaysia before.....


I think our Gov't position for this issue is clear ...

QUOTE
VP insulted by syariah bylaw

MAKASSAR (Antara): Vice President Jusuf Kalla said Sunday he was offended with the emerging trend of syariah bylaw across the country as it only scared people with punishment from local government for any religious wrongdoings.

"We are instructed to implement syariah, obey God and His prophets. But syariah bylaw tends to force us to do our religious obligation based on the local government order," he addressed a Muslim organization gathering in Makassar.

Syariah bylaw would only scare people with punishment from the local government for any religious wrongdoings, he added. (***)

http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailgenera...5848&irec=9

Betong
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jul 23 2007, 05:35 AM) *
Betong, why do you tink that Indonesia is more likely to turn into another Pakistan before Malaysia? confused.gif

It's true that Pakistan was once in India but it broke away from India. I know that many Indonesian intellectuals and spiritual leaders still remember and practise their indian religious spiritual practice (sufist strain of islam that originally arrived on the shores of Indonesia), and their elites are very strong in their cultural affinity with the Hindu past. But this doesn't mean Indonesia is going down the road of Pakistan? It seems you do not understand what is really happening in Pakistan with the rise of Islamic fundamentalism there.. the fundamentalists there wants to erase India from their minds and maybe one day from the map, who knows?

Do u not see what is happening there is similar to Malaysia's elites?

Why I think that ??? Because of their govt. Their govt keep supressing this fundemantalist group and make them like they are today an extremist, bombing in Bali and other places in Jakarta are the prove, if I can say that. The rise of fundamentalist group always because of unability of their govt to listen to this kind of people and find reasonable way to deal with that and in Malaysia we didn't have a problem with that. Our govt seem support the need of this group especially international matter, if I can say they most important caused of Islamic fundamental- Palestine Issues....

Malaysia in otherwise, has very functional law, Internal Security Act -ISA that can been used towards this kind of threat and we prove it in war against communism and plus we never had history of violance against outsider. Plus we have other think to do than keep thinking about bombing US bussiness. kiss.gif

So it better for us to say that Farish Noor accusations was unfounded.
Betong
QUOTE(firdausj @ Jul 23 2007, 09:07 AM) *
I think our Gov't position for this issue is clear ...

First you hate Jussof Kalla and second you praise for his action ????

Is good that you happy with that...
jokotarub
QUOTE(Betong @ Jul 24 2007, 02:50 PM) *
... find reasonable way to deal with that and in Malaysia we didn't have a problem with that. Our govt seem support the need of this group especially international matter, if I can say they most important caused of Islamic fundamental- Palestine Issues....

Malaysia in otherwise, has very functional law, Internal Security Act -ISA that can been used towards this kind of threat and we prove it in war against communism and plus we never had history of violance against outsider. Plus we have other think to do than keep thinking about bombing US bussiness. kiss.gif

So it better for us to say that Farish Noor accusations was unfounded.

Dr. Farish Noor seems to see your "reasonable way" is to co-opt fundamentalist ideas to the government, which was what Pakistan did with grave result as their national politics succumbed to those ideas.
swingdoctor
QUOTE(Betong @ Jul 24 2007, 01:50 AM) *
Why I think that ??? Because of their govt. Their govt keep supressing this fundemantalist group and make them like they are today an extremist, bombing in Bali and other places in Jakarta are the prove, if I can say that. The rise of fundamentalist group always because of unability of their govt to listen to this kind of people and find reasonable way to deal with that and in Malaysia we didn't have a problem with that. Our govt seem support the need of this group especially international matter, if I can say they most important caused of Islamic fundamental- Palestine Issues....

Malaysia in otherwise, has very functional law, Internal Security Act -ISA that can been used towards this kind of threat and we prove it in war against communism and plus we never had history of violance against outsider. Plus we have other think to do than keep thinking about bombing US bussiness. kiss.gif

So it better for us to say that Farish Noor accusations was unfounded.

So what you're saying is that the govnt should compromise with the fundamentalisy groups? So what about fundamentalist Christian groups? Should the govnt compromise with them also so that they didn't become extrimist?

Malaysia does have a hostory of violence against "outsiders", racial riots. There are still some Malays who see non Malays as pendatang asing. There are Malaysian terrorists, and the govnt has closed down some Islamic schools deemed too radical, the schools that the Bali bombing masterminds came from.
Betong
QUOTE(jokotarub @ Jul 24 2007, 02:07 AM) *
Dr. Farish Noor seems to see your "reasonable way" is to co-opt fundamentalist ideas to the government, which was what Pakistan did with grave result as their national politics succumbed to those ideas.

Enough said, both of us, me and Dr Farish Noor agreed that we don't want Malaysia to be like Pakistan nowdays....

QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Jul 25 2007, 12:57 AM) *
So what you're saying is that the govnt should compromise with the fundamentalisy groups? So what about fundamentalist Christian groups? Should the govnt compromise with them also so that they didn't become extrimist?

Malaysia does have a hostory of violence against "outsiders", racial riots. There are still some Malays who see non Malays as pendatang asing. There are Malaysian terrorists, and the govnt has closed down some Islamic schools deemed too radical, the schools that the Bali bombing masterminds came from.

Extremist was bad regardless of any religion... In Malaysia we don't have the problem about extreminism....

Do you mean 13 Mei incident??? I see it as fight between two group??? How can it be it racial riots when it happen only in Chinese populated area, when Chinese attacked Malays in the first place, and Malays just defend their life. And Bali mastermind was UK educated guys, so must be UK was source of this problem according to your logic???? Both of them graduated from UK if I not mistaken and sure not from any pasentren or Islamic school.
swingdoctor
QUOTE(Betong @ Jul 25 2007, 07:05 PM) *
Enough said, both of us, me and Dr Farish Noor agreed that we don't want Malaysia to be like Pakistan nowdays....
Extremist was bad regardless of any religion... In Malaysia we don't have the problem about extreminism....

Do you mean 13 Mei incident??? I see it as fight between two group??? How can it be it racial riots when it happen only in Chinese populated area, when Chinese attacked Malays in the first place, and Malays just defend their life. And Bali mastermind was UK educated guys, so must be UK was source of this problem according to your logic???? Both of them graduated from UK if I not mistaken and sure not from any pasentren or Islamic school.

I agree that extremism is bad, but you still haven't answered the question, should the govnt compromise with christian fundamentalists to try to prevent them becoming extremists?

The May 13 racial riots, there is conflicting stories as to how its started, there is good evidence from both sides and nobody knows for sure who started the riots. You should note though that more Chinese died during that riot compared to Malays. If you are trying to blame the Chinese for the race riots, you need to remember that all the race riots in Malaysia involve Malays, the 1964 riots, 1969, Kampong Medan riots and Kampong Rawa riots, all involve Malays and another race.

Only Azahari Husin was educated in the UK, Noordin Mohammed Top as far as I understand wasn't. What is clear is that soon after the Bali bombings, the Malaysian govnt closed down some of the more extremist Islamic schools in Malaysia.
Henry123
QUOTE(Betong @ Jul 24 2007, 02:50 AM) *
....plus we never had history of violance against outsider. ..
So it better for us to say that Farish Noor accusations was unfounded.

There was some conflict between Malaysia and Indonesia with Borneo.
There was also conflict with Japanese military forces during WW2.
But those things are in the past.
pancaindera
So it started with Najib's statement, "msia is an islamic state". these kind of statements are very vague, uncertain, and controversial which could affect racial unity. (from what i know msia is secular state with islam as an official religion. correct me if im wrong. or maybe Najib should look up the dictionary and see what "secular" means) why are these munkeys getting away with saying all these stupid things. if other race say, they will shout "sedition!". I think najib is juz trying to divert attention from the altantuya case, OR trying to fix his somewhat broken reputation by trying to reach out to grassroot support (muslim malay).

swingdoctor
QUOTE(pancaindera @ Jul 27 2007, 05:44 AM) *
So it started with Najib's statement, "msia is an islamic state". these kind of statements are very vague, uncertain, and controversial which could affect racial unity. (from what i know msia is secular state with islam as an official religion. correct me if im wrong. or maybe Najib should look up the dictionary and see what "secular" means) why are these munkeys getting away with saying all these stupid things. if other race say, they will shout "sedition!". I think najib is juz trying to divert attention from the altantuya case, OR trying to fix his somewhat broken reputation by trying to reach out to grassroot support (muslim malay).

This is the fallacy about the role of Islam in Malaysia. When the consitution was being drafted, there was a delegate who wanted to make Islam the state religion, he was strongly opposed by the other delegateds and as a result the compromise was that Islam would be the official religion and the rights of other religions guarenteed and protected and by definition treated as "equal". They specifically didn't want Islam to be the state religion because they didn't want Islam to have special privilidges besides the ones specifically stated in the constitution. Today the govnt has taken a step further by claiming that Islam is the state religion, when the draftees of the constitution were at pains to specifically prevent this. You need to read not only the constitution but the process of it being drafted as well.
tangawizi
Here's what Anwar Ibrahim had to say about Pakistan in his essay Universal Values and Muslim Democracy:


Muhammad Ali Jinnah (1876–1948), the founder of Pakistan, was at
that time perhaps the most revered foreign leader among Muslims in
Southeast Asia. The affection was well placed given Jinnah’s commit-
ment to democracy, his abhorrence of corruption, and his stern warning
that the army should never leave the barracks. In 1947, he told the Con-
stituent Assembly of Pakistan that “the first duty of a government is to
maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of
its subjects are fully protected by the state.” Unfortunately, Jinnah did
not live long after Pakistan’s birth as a civilian and democratic state.
After his death, Pakistanis unfailingly and deferentially referred to him
as “Quaid-e-Azam” (the Great Leader), but his ideal of good gover-
nance and democracy has yet to be realized.


The future of Muslim democracy is now. The emergence of Muslim
democracies is something significant and worthy of our attention. Yet
with the clear exceptions of Indonesia and Turkey, the Muslim world
today is a place where autocracies and dictatorships of various shades
and degrees continue their parasitic hold on the people, gnawing away
at their newfound freedoms.



swingdoctor
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Jul 30 2007, 12:03 AM) *
Here's what Anwar Ibrahim had to say about Pakistan in his essay Universal Values and Muslim Democracy:


Muhammad Ali Jinnah (1876–1948), the founder of Pakistan, was at
that time perhaps the most revered foreign leader among Muslims in
Southeast Asia. The affection was well placed given Jinnah’s commit-
ment to democracy, his abhorrence of corruption, and his stern warning
that the army should never leave the barracks. In 1947, he told the Con-
stituent Assembly of Pakistan that “the first duty of a government is to
maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of
its subjects are fully protected by the state.” Unfortunately, Jinnah did
not live long after Pakistan’s birth as a civilian and democratic state.
After his death, Pakistanis unfailingly and deferentially referred to him
as “Quaid-e-Azam” (the Great Leader), but his ideal of good gover-
nance and democracy has yet to be realized.
The future of Muslim democracy is now. The emergence of Muslim
democracies is something significant and worthy of our attention. Yet
with the clear exceptions of Indonesia and Turkey, the Muslim world
today is a place where autocracies and dictatorships of various shades
and degrees continue their parasitic hold on the people, gnawing away
at their newfound freedoms.

I agree with what Anwar says, but the thing that concerns me is that when Anwar was deputy PM he was happy to toe the party line. There was a rumour around about the time he was charged with sodomy that he wanted to take Malaysia in a different direction as to what Mahatir was taking Malaysia and this was one of the reasons for the trumped up sodomy charge. Having said that I think its obvious now that the charges and evidence brought up against Anwar were fabricated. The truth is, I can't see anyone except those that hold the highest offices in the land that could make these things happen. It would have been interesting had the judge not thrown out the civil suit Anwar brought up against Mahathir.

I think globally Islam is at a crossroad, it needs to decide if it wants to remain conservative or become more liberal. I personally feel that to live peacefully in the modern world, Islam needs to accept equality with other religions. The concerning thing about Malaysia is that in all other countries I can think of, and this is independent of which religion it is, as a population gets wealthier, it becomes more tolerant and more liberal, Malaysia is the only exception to this rule that I can think of.
Protoculture
Malaysia is an Islamic state in principle, secular in practice.

That is the way how to sum both Malaysia & Islam in the country.
swingdoctor
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Sep 2 2007, 08:04 AM) *
Malaysia is an Islamic state in principle, secular in practice.

That is the way how to sum both Malaysia & Islam in the country.

Malaysia is a secular society in the constitution.
Protoculture
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Sep 2 2007, 06:38 PM) *
Malaysia is a secular society in the constitution.


Which undergone rapid Islamization values within the context of Govt. policies & politized Islam for the past 3 decades.

Hmmm, you're saying ...
kimyee73
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Sep 3 2007, 12:38 PM) *
Which undergone rapid Islamization values within the context of Govt. policies & politized Islam for the past 3 decades.

Hmmm, you're saying ...

Just UMNO trying to outdo PAS. Unfortunately the values are only superficial that brought concerns to non-Muslim. Example are the islamization of schools and also religious police. One of the reason non-Muslim are reluctant to send their children to national school because fear of being influenced by Islamic practices in school. If the govn is truly want to instill islamic values, they need to be more than superficial, like equality to all, elimination of corrupt practices etc., that non-Muslim will see the benefit of islamic values. We see this being done in Kelantan. Under BN, it is very difficult for Chinese to open a biz due to various licensing requirement from various govn dept including all the tips that we need to contribute but does not guarantee a license given. Under PAS, you just need to go to a one-stop-shop dept and pay a common-to-all fee for biz license. Also under PAS, pig farm is allowed as Islam allows for non-Muslim to rear their own food, unlike BN Terengganu where pig farm is not allowed. For ordinary people, that is a value that brought by Islam under PAS.
pancaindera
QUOTE(kimyee73 @ Sep 5 2007, 12:50 PM) *
Under BN, it is very difficult for Chinese to open a biz due to various licensing requirement from various govn dept including all the tips that we need to contribute but does not guarantee a license given. Under PAS, you just need to go to a one-stop-shop dept and pay a common-to-all fee for biz license. Also under PAS, pig farm is allowed as Islam allows for non-Muslim to rear their own food, unlike BN Terengganu where pig farm is not allowed. For ordinary people, that is a value that brought by Islam under PAS.


Wow. They allow pig farms in Pas Kelantan, but not in BN Terengganu?? And no hanky-panky licensing. My views towards PAS has slightly changed a bit.
Protoculture
QUOTE
Wow. They allow pig farms in Pas Kelantan, but not in BN Terengganu?? And no hanky-panky licensing. My views towards PAS has slightly changed a bit.


PAS is a pussycat compared to those fanatical Talibans.

Don't y'know there're practically Buddha idols littering the Kelantan landscape, including the LARGEST Buddha statue in Kelantan. Did PAS islamists demolished 'em ... heck no!

Even PAS has slow down on its fully Sharia-compliant state propaganda .... in order to project itself as a progressive moderate Muslim Malay party .... kinda telling, while UMNO currently gone all Islam Hadhari.

It kinda funny nowadays, PAS aping UMNO's progressive way, & UMNO aping PAS's Islamist way ..... Yeah, Election fever certainly is around the corner!
swingdoctor
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Sep 2 2007, 11:38 PM) *
Which undergone rapid Islamization values within the context of Govt. policies & politized Islam for the past 3 decades.

Hmmm, you're saying ...

The Islamic influences in Malaysia has been againt the wishes and with the protests of the non Malay sections of the Malaysian population. Malaysia doen't only mean Malay but all its citizens. Are you arguing that the Islamic changes that has happened in Malaysia is good? Good for whom? Malays only? Racially Malaysia is more divided then ever. Religiously, all of the non-Islamic religions are unhappy with the current situation. Do you think that in the stronger influence of Islam has made the govnt better? Tell me how? Is corruption lower then in the past? Are the people more united? Are the people happier?

Even so according to the constitution, Malaysia is NOT an Islamic state, neither should it be Islamic in principle. The fatehrs of its constitution were at pains to NOT make Malaysia an Islamic state, either officially or in principle. So what this is happening in Malaysia now is against the constitution.
fargowin
This country was all along a land for Orang Asli. The Chinese originated from China, Indians originated from India, malays originated from Indonesia etc. China get to give priority to the Chinese, India get to give priority to the Indians, and the malays are just freeloading from the Orang Asli land by claming it is bumi land.

This is because they are doing what Allah said……….Allah told malays to come from Indonesia and steal the land from Orang Asli and use Orang Asli as slaves. So when is Malaysia giving priority to Orang Asli?

The only time Malaysia is not a racist country is when an Orang Asli becomes the prime minister of Malaysia - which is never - it is a genocide in the name of Allah!
malaysiaisnofuture
In very recent times, the starting date for the study of Malaysia history in the schools has been conveniently fixed around 1400 CE. It probably coincides with the founding of the Sultanate of Malacca by Parameswara.

Today, Malaysia school children only learn a little bit about the early Proto malays and then are conveniently taken on a historical quantum leap to the founding of Malacca.

Early Indian works speak of a fantastically wealthy place called Savarnadvipa, which meant "land of gold". This mystical place was said to lie far away, and legend holds that this was probably the most valid reason why the first Indians ventured across the Bay of Bengal and arrived in Kedah around 100 BC.

Apart from trade, the early Indians brought a pervasive culture, with Hinduism and Buddhism sweeping through the Indo-Chinese and malay archipelago lands bringing temples and Indian cultural traditions. The local chiefs began to refer to themselves as "rajahs" and also integrated what they considered the best of Indian governmental traditions with the existing structure.

I learnt Malaysia history in the 1950s and taught it in the 1960s and 1970s in secondary schools. All the history textbooks at the time had the early Indian connection specifically mentioned in them. Teachers of that period taught about the early Indianised kingdoms of Langkasuka, Srivijaya and Majapahit that existed from as early as 100 CE.

Anyone can see that Parameswara, the founder of Malacca, has a clearly give away name that points to the Indian/Hindu influence. No one can deny this, and all our children need to know about this. They have the fundamental right to learn about this aspect of our history too.

Why don't our children learn about these early Indian connections today? It needs mention here that this early Indian connection has nothing to do with the much later cheap Indian "coolie" labour influx that the British brought over to man the railways and plantations of Malaysia from the late 19th century onwards.

The malay language as we know it today is already fully impregnated and enriched with many foreign words. This is good. Malay therefore has been a bahasa rojak from early times itself.

Rojak itself (and also cendul) is a Malaysia food developed by an Indian Malayalee Muslim community known as the Malabaris who hailed from Kerala. They were also referred to as kakas. We now wrongly credit the Penang mamaks for this great food.

The very word "Melayu" itself is most probably of Indian origin from the words "Malai Ur", which means land of mountains in Tamil. Singapur, Nagapur and Indrapur are very common Indian names that have similar backgrounds.

The early Indians were probably inspired by the main mountain range that looks like a backbone for the malay peninsula and thus named it Malaiur. The word "Malai" is undoubtedly Indian in origin as is the case with the word Himalayas and we all know where it is situated.

Many malay words, from describing malay royalty (Seri, Raja, Maha, etc) and common everyday terms (suami, kerana, dunia, cuma, bakti), all have Indian connections. The undeniable Indian connection in the word Indonesia is also reflected in the name itself.

The Indian factor that influences even the prevailing malay culture in terms of music, food, dress and certain other everyday practices like betel chewing and bersanding is another thing over which a loud hush prevails. Why?

Such knowledge of the roots of this great country, be they Indian, Chinese, Arab or whatever, can indeed very strongly facilitate the ongoing efforts of the government to make our children think of themselves as Bangsa Malaysia more readily and more easily.
nasilemang
QUOTE(malaysiaisnofuture @ Feb 21 2008, 01:50 PM) *
In very recent times, the starting date for the study of Malaysia history in the schools has been conveniently fixed around 1400 CE. It probably coincides with the founding of the Sultanate of Malacca by Parameswara.

Today, Malaysia school children only learn a little bit about the early Proto malays and then are conveniently taken on a historical quantum leap to the founding of Malacca.

Early Indian works speak of a fantastically wealthy place called Savarnadvipa, which meant "land of gold". This mystical place was said to lie far away, and legend holds that this was probably the most valid reason why the first Indians ventured across the Bay of Bengal and arrived in Kedah around 100 BC.

Apart from trade, the early Indians brought a pervasive culture, with Hinduism and Buddhism sweeping through the Indo-Chinese and malay archipelago lands bringing temples and Indian cultural traditions. The local chiefs began to refer to themselves as "rajahs" and also integrated what they considered the best of Indian governmental traditions with the existing structure.

I learnt Malaysia history in the 1950s and taught it in the 1960s and 1970s in secondary schools. All the history textbooks at the time had the early Indian connection specifically mentioned in them. Teachers of that period taught about the early Indianised kingdoms of Langkasuka, Srivijaya and Majapahit that existed from as early as 100 CE.

Anyone can see that Parameswara, the founder of Malacca, has a clearly give away name that points to the Indian/Hindu influence. No one can deny this, and all our children need to know about this. They have the fundamental right to learn about this aspect of our history too.

Why don't our children learn about these early Indian connections today? It needs mention here that this early Indian connection has nothing to do with the much later cheap Indian "coolie" labour influx that the British brought over to man the railways and plantations of Malaysia from the late 19th century onwards.

The malay language as we know it today is already fully impregnated and enriched with many foreign words. This is good. Malay therefore has been a bahasa rojak from early times itself.

Rojak itself (and also cendul) is a Malaysia food developed by an Indian Malayalee Muslim community known as the Malabaris who hailed from Kerala. They were also referred to as kakas. We now wrongly credit the Penang mamaks for this great food.

The very word "Melayu" itself is most probably of Indian origin from the words "Malai Ur", which means land of mountains in Tamil. Singapur, Nagapur and Indrapur are very common Indian names that have similar backgrounds.

The early Indians were probably inspired by the main mountain range that looks like a backbone for the malay peninsula and thus named it Malaiur. The word "Malai" is undoubtedly Indian in origin as is the case with the word Himalayas and we all know where it is situated.

Many malay words, from describing malay royalty (Seri, Raja, Maha, etc) and common everyday terms (suami, kerana, dunia, cuma, bakti), all have Indian connections. The undeniable Indian connection in the word Indonesia is also reflected in the name itself.

The Indian factor that influences even the prevailing malay culture in terms of music, food, dress and certain other everyday practices like betel chewing and bersanding is another thing over which a loud hush prevails. Why?

Such knowledge of the roots of this great country, be they Indian, Chinese, Arab or whatever, can indeed very strongly facilitate the ongoing efforts of the government to make our children think of themselves as Bangsa Malaysia more readily and more easily.

You said "We" and "our",... wait the minute speak up for yourself....your place either in India or China but your people could not manage well your own place, full of corruption and your place there is crawling in poverty. Yeaahhh...now you have to live as parasite in someone else country and think yourself greatly lol.
Protoculture
QUOTE
Even so according to the constitution, Malaysia is NOT an Islamic state, neither should it be Islamic in principle. The fatehrs of its constitution were at pains to NOT make Malaysia an Islamic state, either officially or in principle. So what this is happening in Malaysia now is against the constitution.


Well, you ain't the one written or implementing policies in MY.

You hardly to judge which way MY should forge its destiny. One way or another, it still stay the same, in regard of Islam as the status quo, with secular implementations to keep things in balance.
swingdoctor
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Feb 25 2008, 03:59 AM) *
Well, you ain't the one written or implementing policies in MY.

You hardly to judge which way MY should forge its destiny. One way or another, it still stay the same, in regard of Islam as the status quo, with secular implementations to keep things in balance.

I'm not making a judgement, Malaysia not being an Islamic country is not my opinion but it is what is written in the constitution. Show me anywhere in the constitution that says Islam is anything more then the Official religion of Malaysia. The fact that the Malaysian govnt today is trying to make Islam more like a state religion doesn't change the fact that according to the constitution, its not supposed to be and is against what the founding members of Malaysia decided and wanted.

Tunku Abdul Rahman often spoke about the equality of religions and he was one of the writers of the Constitution.

BTW Malaysia is NOT secular in practice.

A predominantly Muslim country that is truly secualr in practice is Turkey.
Protoculture
QUOTE
A predominantly Muslim country that is truly secualr in practice is Turkey.


Yet, it sacrifice basic democracy controlled by the military.

QUOTE
BTW Malaysia is NOT secular in practice.


Oh yes we do. But of course, for political purposes, UMNO leaders ain't gonna admit that for fear of getting backlash from Muslim Malays & that will give PAS Islamist more leverages.

We've secular based education system, secular based finance system (alongside Islamic finance), secular based administration, with civil laws & governance. We've secular lifestyles even amongst Malays. We've secular based democracy system. Our multicultural society even represents secular outlooks.

Its just that MY Malays still much equate strongly with Islam, & Islam is a powerful political & social tool in MY.

Of course, as I said, MY is an Islamic state in principle, secular in practice.
swingdoctor
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Feb 27 2008, 04:46 AM) *
Yet, it sacrifice basic democracy controlled by the military.
Oh yes we do. But of course, for political purposes, UMNO leaders ain't gonna admit that for fear of getting backlash from Muslim Malays & that will give PAS Islamist more leverages.

We've secular based education system, secular based finance system (alongside Islamic finance), secular based administration, with civil laws & governance. We've secular lifestyles even amongst Malays. We've secular based democracy system. Our multicultural society even represents secular outlooks.

Its just that MY Malays still much equate strongly with Islam, & Islam is a powerful political & social tool in MY.

Of course, as I said, MY is an Islamic state in principle, secular in practice.

I'm unaware of any social unrest in Turkey.

Malaysia is not a truly secular system. It can't be, Islamic laws are implemented and not all religions are treated equally. A truly secular society is one where the state and religion are completely seperate, in Malaysia its not.
Protoculture
QUOTE
I'm unaware of any social unrest in Turkey.


Ehhemmm, there's cases of coup de tats by the Turkish Military when the Turks Islamist wins big in Turkey's elections. Of course, the current Turkey Govt. are largely Islamist, that's because they're smart enough not to push Islamization agendas that would upset Turkey's secular ideals, & of course, give the Turkey's military a playground to squash the Kurdish rebels in Iraqi border.

Besides, the Kurdish insurgencies are endemic problem to Turkey, something even the secularists can't control when they're in power previously.

QUOTE
Malaysia is not a truly secular system. It can't be, Islamic laws are implemented and not all religions are treated equally. A truly secular society is one where the state and religion are completely seperate, in Malaysia its not.


Islamic Law? Hell, its just pertaining to civil matters. If we truely practiced Islamic Sharia, somebody gonna get publicly beheaded for murder crimes, or someone's hand gonna be chopped off for thievery cases or adulterers will be publicly received 100 lashes. Nope, our Sharia Laws functioned the same way to Muslims as our Civil Law to non Muslims (& Muslims too). Our judiciary system are largely secular.
ruyom
Remember Raja Petra said: More than 90% of malays were actually non-Muslims, because they don't follow the teaching of Islam.

Can a true Muslim prohibit another Muslim to build a mosque? Any part of koran said to build a mosque for the Chinese Muslims is haram? Another Malaysia Boleh one story yah?

I firmly believe, when I die and go to hell, I will meet many "Malaysian Muslims" there, all the munafik who used Islam not for them to be closer to God, but for their idiotic, selfish and vicious self-interest.

More classic examples of half-past-six mentalities displayed by the present so-called leaders, ministers, and worst of all politicians (monkey-brain), bad for the nation but good for those who knows how to take advantage of their stupidity.

Religion alone can never help us to become more clever and smart, especially with the present attitude and style of the malays, who are going backwards more and more, and heading for the caves and jungles in time to come.

In Malaysia the constitution is not the supreme document in law. It has been so trampled by the Umno gangsters; it has come to a point where these gangsters are a law unto themselves. To them the constitution is respected when it suits their intents and toilet paper when it does not.

Mob rule is tolerated by the police when it is an Umno orchestrated mob. Non-Umno gatherings are an inconvenience and clobbered to pulp.

Malaysia is dead as a nation. They are dying to call this land Tanah Melayu so we might as well let them destroyed it. It is no loss to the non-malays since they are treated as pendatang anyway.

Let these gangsters plunder and rob their own kind. They are notorious for inbreeding in any case. They would probably enjoy devouring their own kind too. Crooks and hypocrites at the helm will never grow a nation. Only chaos and disaster beckon.

I wish it were different, but I have long since decided they deserve what they get. No point in banging my head against the wall.
reek
According to a recent study through secret agency, Nihon Himitsu Oruganitsum Bureau, shows that malays were descended from the hybrid between hog/boar and baboon, hence explains why they look like baboon and they don't eat pork.

Our latest DNA analysis confirmed the fact.

The Japanese, Europeans etc, all eat pork, so does that mean they are all dirty and only the malays and Arabs are clean?

These malay pig have no brains to think properly.

The secret agency study also finds that Muslims are more violent, lazy, cunning and barbaric due to the lack of pork in their meal and the wrong doctrine.

They had been misled by Quran for generations which was copied and twisted by Muhammad from Holy Bible just to control his followers so that they don't harm their same species/ancestor (the hybrid between hog/boar and baboon).
Meruboy
I cant think of where this moron reek received his education, if he had any education at all. Pigs like you should be fed to other pigs, so your next generation will remain pigs.
Protoculture
QUOTE
I cant think of where this moron reek received his education, if he had any education at all. Pigs like you should be fed to other pigs, so your next generation will remain pigs.


He belongs to nameless noxious faeces from the nearby pork farms. Now wonder he's got gutter for brains. As for his next generation, expect another batch of porky excretions.
hailer
QUOTE(fargowin @ Sep 19 2007, 01:41 PM) *
...
This is because they are doing what Allah said....Allah told malays to come from Indonesia and steal the land from Orang Asli and use Orang Asli as slaves. So when is Malaysia giving priority to Orang Asli?
...


Your false fact is unacceptable but provoking others. I presume you are a chinese extremist Malaysian. I can make use of your religion text which I can get online or from the book store then manipulate the fact too if I want. I you are Buddhist, Confucians, Christian, Hindus or Taoist, I can do the same thing to these religion written text if I want. But I also consider other bumis religion too, they are Christian and Budhist. If you anti Umno, then why you generalise Malay. Do you think Malay only for Umno?. What about Malay in PKR and those who votes for chauvinistic DAP people like you in Penang? Even DAP chinese now also a bit tolerate to Malay now, and that is why Malay a bit confident to DAP chinese now.

It portrays your self as chinese extremist Malaysian and your ethnic about the agenda against Bumis. This attempt will make Bumis be more racist and phobia about your existence in this land. Your type of chauvinistic is still exist until today and will never absent from your ethnic, every where in the world, even in the smallest island in the Pacific Ocean. Just imagine if all people from your ethnic is your type. And I believe there are many people like your type outside there that explains why Bumis are so racist. If you really want the wind of change, why dont you just show your good attitude, discuss with proper manner and respect to them, then only they will respect your opinion and request.

Reek is also your type.
kumanddie
QUOTE(hailer @ Jun 14 2008, 11:57 PM) *
Your false fact is unacceptable but provoking others. I presume you are a chinese extremist Malaysian. I can make use of your religion text which I can get online or from the book store then manipulate the fact too if I want. I you are Buddhist, Confucians, Christian, Hindus or Taoist, I can do the same thing to these religion written text if I want. But I also consider other bumis religion too, they are Christian and Budhist. If you anti Umno, then why you generalise Malay. Do you think Malay only for Umno?. What about Malay in PKR and those who votes for chauvinistic DAP people like you in Penang? Even DAP chinese now also a bit tolerate to Malay now, and that is why Malay a bit confident to DAP chinese now.

It portrays your self as chinese extremist Malaysian and your ethnic about the agenda against Bumis. This attempt will make Bumis be more racist and phobia about your existence in this land. Your type of chauvinistic is still exist until today and will never absent from your ethnic, every where in the world, even in the smallest island in the Pacific Ocean. Just imagine if all people from your ethnic is your type. And I believe there are many people like your type outside there that explains why Bumis are so racist. If you really want the wind of change, why dont you just show your good attitude, discuss with proper manner and respect to them, then only they will respect your opinion and request.

Reek is also your type.


This pigboy is using so many names to call Malay as pig. He is not Malaysian anymore. He is an Australian living in Darwin. Please ignore this boy. He does not represent true Malaysian voice.
dipati
ahhhhhhhhh....everywhere r the same, big people such as politician only thinking about $$$$$$$$$$ and power, not to include power ranger...hahahaha.........you people in this blog tried your best to give same on others....look at yourself.....what is your contribution to your country....to protest whenever thing not right ..........bla bla bla...craps.......we live with it................
hailer
QUOTE(kumanddie @ Jun 16 2008, 10:38 AM) *
This pigboy is using so many names to call Malay as pig. He is not Malaysian anymore. He is an Australian living in Darwin. Please ignore this boy. He does not represent true Malaysian voice.


Ooh yes? How do you know he is living in Darwin? Maybe he was thrown away by his family becaue he can not compete with his own species, and want to try competing with the bushmen.
Meruboy
So, will Malaysia eventually turn into another Pakistan? Not bad also, since Pak is a Nuke state beerchug.gif
hailer
Is Malaysia ready to ally with the US?
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