I am serious in my inquiry. Or can I assume that most Indonesians just live a "Cultural Muslim Life," meaning live like a Muslim, but do not take the Koran seriously? This is important to understand the easy going life in Indonesia.

Let me correct some points. Indonesia is a secular country not a muslim country. But,yes, majority of the population are moslem. for (1) Shahada is one of Islam 5 pillars not something outside 5 pillars of Islam. for point (4), if you are a good Muslim, you should accept that idea.

Please, can you explain to me your definition of "Secular?"

"Skyisdalimit: If you are a good Muslim you should accept that idea of (4)," But how much of the Koran does the average village person know? And who has to translate it for him? For example:

Qur'an 97:5 "There is peace until the dawning of the day!"
Qur'an 9:3 "Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is His Apostle."
Ishaq:326 "If they ask you for peace on the basis of Islam (submission), make peace on that basis. Be of one mind by His religion."
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

There are contradictions between those verses and how is a Muslim to interpret such contradictions?

Also you say Indonesia is Secular, but the Koran says:

Qur'an 20:14 "Verily, I am Allah. No Ilah (God) may be worshiped but I. So serve you Me, and perform regular prostration prayer for My praise. Verily the Hour is coming. I am almost hiding it from Myself."

How does 20:14 allow non-compliance with secularism? I find it hard to understand.

^ this dude is a troll

indonesia has secular and hardliner people
we have no problem with that as long as we follow the same national principle.

and we opposed any kind of invasion and terrorism , from any country no matter u are from
England , USA, Arab, Japan etc

double

I like your post, very mature compare to your other ones xD




Mr ellex0
You asked questions about Islam in Indonesia, however I must inform you that your questions are very subjective in nature, it will create a different response from different people. There are 240 million of us and we don't think the same. I do not think you could gather such info about Islam in Indonesia from asking people... to fully understand Islam's role in Indonesia I think you need to experience it yourself.

This might be just me....but I can sense that you are expecting a specific response to your questions.

I think what Skyisdalimit meant by saying "secular" is that Indonesians on theory see religion as part of the private life of a person. It does not matter to the state or to other people if such person believes in monotheism or polytheism or even atheism. In the public life a person is seen as an Indonesian not a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist, a Hindu etc. It is irrelevant.

Now to the question of beliefs.....you can't judge how good a Muslim is just because they do not translate the Qur'an like you do. How could you say some Muslims live a "Cultural Muslim life"....it is as if you are branding them "not a good" Muslim ? Then what defines being a Muslim ? Isn't Islam a faith ? As long as the person believes in Allah, I do not think anyone have the right to question his or her piety.

Back to your question.... from how I see it. Indonesian Muslims are mostly Muslims who are act through their conscience and logic, the Qur'an serves as guidance not something that they all must follow. Just like any other religious books, some parts are irrelevant to the current world and thus can't not be applied to the modern world. Most Muslims in Indonesia are religious but not to the point of such orthodoxy.

I hope that helps.

^Are you here to ask questions or are you here to preach ?
It seems that you already have a fixed mind on what is "Islam" or what is not and you seem very critical to other people's view of Islam, a view different than yours.

Are you suggesting that Muslims in Indonesia to run around in with crude weapons looking for "infidels" and hacking them to death?

Sure you might interpret the Qur'an differently than others...and like I said "Just like any other religious books, some parts are irrelevant to the current world and thus can't not be applied to the modern world" but that does not mean that others should see it the way you do nor should you label them "un-Islamic", then what is the "true" Islam ?



What exact form ? you kinda form ?
If it is so similar, how come there are so many sects of Islam and from time to time fighting against each other.

I've seen your posts in Msia chat....you see to be supportive for another "holy war " there.

Personally I think your kind of Islam is rigid and archaic, you're not different than orthodox Jews, Hindus, Christians, etc. "Indonesian Muslims are mostly Muslims who are act through their conscience and logic, the Qur'an serves as guidance not something that they all must follow. Just like any other religious books, some parts are irrelevant to the current world and thus can't not be applied to the modern world ".

I do not believe you could find a compromise with certain people over the internet...I've said what I want to say. I think that's enough from me.

DEIM: I am here to talk about Islam as I see it. I have studied Islam as a mature person seriously for many years. I hope you know your Islam as well as I do even if I am not a born Muslim. My views of Islam and the Koran is what is contained in the Koran and the Hadiths and The Sharia Laws and the History of Islam and the biography of the Prophet Muhammad. No more no less. I am not critical of anyone's views and would only love for them to show me where I am wrong. But if you are wrong, I will say so bluntly. My authentication is usually found in the Koran. I wonder whether you are old enough to understand what the Koran says?

Re: "Hacking them to death" but I recall some verses that that is exactly Allah's commands to his followers. Let me remind you:

Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers (non-Muslims) wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

So why would Allah command Muslims with these verses?

Then maybe you were too young to having learned about this:

"May 1998

CHINESE INDONESIAN APPEALS FOR HELP!

Witnesses said the mob shouted "Let's wipe out the Chinese" and "Let's kill the Chinese" as they rampaged through. Indonesia's ethnic Chinese are a frequent target during times of hardship due to their perceived wealth in the largely Moslem nation and control of local commerce. (Reuters, 13 May 1998)

At least 10 people died in riots in Jakarta Wednesday, nine of them believed to be Chinese burned when mobs set their shops and homes on fire, residents in the western area of the Indonesian capital said. (CNN, 13 May 1998)

Much of the most recent violence in Indonesia has been targeted at the Chinese community. Chinese-owned shops in north and west Jakarta were looted and set ablaze on Wednesday night. Reports have confirmed that nine people were killed when a bar was set on fire overnight in the city's Chinese quarter. (BBC News, 14 May 1998)

Recently, anti-Chinese ethnic turbulence has been spread in some areas in Indonesia, and the worst riot hit in Jakarta, the capital city of Indonesia, on May 13, 1998. On the May 1998 alone, there were several riots that were followed by looting, killing, raping and other violent acts against Chinese Indonesians and also the destruction of churches and other Chinese owned buildings in Indonesia.

In early May 1998, riots had taken place in Medan, and in the following days they began spreading to several big cities in Indonesia, namely Jakarta, Solo, Palembang, Surabaya, Yogyakarta and Ujung Pandang. These riots have turned into anti-Chinese pogroms similar to past incidents that often happened in Indonesia. Since the year of 1966, the ethnic Chinese in Indonesia have been the target of inhumane murder and pillage by the indigenous Indonesians. Not less than half a million of the Chinese ethnic minority in Indonesia were killed. They lost countless wealth to looting by indigenous Indonesians. All this happened without any regard from the Indonesian government.

Now, apparently all of these incidents would not be the last but may be rekindled in the near future. As observed from these incidents, the anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia was apparently derived from political issues - not from social issues as some indigenous politicians claim. Some powerful political groups have succeeded in implementing anti-Chinese doctrine in Indonesia, casting the Chinese Indonesians as the target of the indigenous Indonesians as part their political rhetoric.

These ideas are present in many statements which attempt to scapegoat the ethnic Chinese whenever there was a political problem, as well as in the recent crisis in Indonesia. Regretfully the statements were mostly issued by some leaders of intellectual religious organizations and even some higher government officials.

http://www.colorq.org/HumanRights/article....;x=anti_Chinese

Was the above motives not inspired of the Koran? Do the Indonesians not carry parangs and run amok? Why? What is the driving force of this? Was it not approved by Allah?

Young man, the Koran is not a religious book. The Koran is the Word of Allah and Muhammad is his prophet. Remember that for the rest of your life, please! And I say to you, ALL OF THE KORAN IS RELEVANT TODAY AS IT WAS IN MUHAMMAD'S TIME. DON'T YOU DARE TO SAY THAT ANY VERSE IN THE KORAN IS IRRELEVANT AT ANY TIME FRAME, as a Muslim.

"All study the Koran in its correct form." What I meant is that there is only "one version of the Koran," and all Muslims, regardless of sect study the same Koran as it stands, without any different translations or different translations. In other words all Muslim sects, accept the same Koran, except for the Ahmadiyyas, who do not, and thus are branded blasphemers and declared non-Muslims. All Muslims use the same form of the Koran.

Why do the different Muslim sects fight one another? That is a tribal matter.

I do nor support a Holy war in Malaysia. Jihad is the Jewel of Islam, and you should question your Imam why Allah prescribed Jihad. It was not be who prescribed it, it was Muhammad and Allah who have.

It is not I who is rigid and archaic, it is Islam that follows the traditions set by Muhammad in the 7th century. If you do not believe me, please, for your own information study the Koran. Islam, if you understand Islam, has no room for Conscience or Logic or inquiry. For Allah knows better. If you question Allah, you are breaking your pledge as a Muslim to submit to Allah, and thus you are on the verge of being an apostate. The Koran is not a book of guidance, it is THE WORD OF ALLAH TO BE OBEYED. The Koran my not be adapted to the 21st century, ever. No one on earth has the authority to adapt the Koran to the 21st centuries decadence. Islam is pure and unadulterated and will not alter one letter.

[8:12] : Recall that your Lord inspired the angels: "I am with you; so support those who believed. I will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved. You may strike them above the necks, and you may strike even every finger."

I believe this is not to be understood literally. I am not a learned man in Quran. "Lord inspired the angles", first of all we are not angels and I think there are more to understand from this verse. Prophet Muhammad himself, used parables in his teachings. Let me use an analogy here. in order to locate the moon to another man who asked about it, I need to point my finger to the location of the moon as where my eyes seen it. However the moon is not my finger. It is necessary to gaze beyond the finger to actually see where the moon is. It is the same situation here. The words serve like the finger but it is not the truth. Don't get disillusioned by the words. Another thing to point out is from the Qu'ran verses that I used, I can see that, there is a difference between mine and yours. Mine might be the wrong version, I don't dare to claim if mine is 100% accurate. It is believed by the Moslem that Qu'ran couldn't be translated to other languages other than Arab. To truly learn it, the Moslem learned the Qu'ran from its original Arab form. And, those translated Qu'ran, I dont know about their reliability and credibility, I believe, as long it is man who wrote them, there will be always hidden agenda in it. Hence, the choice of words and tone might be arranged to serve that 'agenda'. I'm not saying that they translated it inaccurately, it is always better to learn from the original form.
And, I think, each individual regardless of his religious view, has his own interpretation to his faith. I believe it is the 'business' between him and his God(s). FYI, I am not a Muslim. It is good to know that I have a friend who is learning Qu'ran too. I hope I can learn more from you.

Islam is a beautiful religion. It is peaceful in nature. ".... Allah love not aggressor." (forgot which Sura it is from)

*yawn,
as the thread starter.,
u are not focus on ur first question . disoriented.
are u trying to discuss about Chinese riot or Islam in Indonesia? be focus, dammit.


how do you study Islam in Indonesia? internet? books?
or you really go to Psantren in indonesia? you go to Islamic universities in egypt?
I wanna know how eligible are you


also you are trying to study Islam in indonesia.
not long since the earliest khilafah , muslim already starting to spread in SE asia.
and that mostly in indonesia. so, have you learn how Islam spread in indonesia? i doubt that.
please find the truth. in detail manner, including what race who have played a big role for spreading Islam in indonesia.
check this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wali_Sanga

before you prejudice Al-Quran itself based on ur perception by looking at lame website,
try experience it urself. lots of observer and historian do that. without converting themselves to Islam. why cant you?

or u just prefer to lurk at Faithfreedom.com ?



if i could ask u again...
Man Robbuka?

Jrockerz, You are talking rubbish. Can't you even speak decent English?

Go away pigtroll.

I have feeling this thread should be close ASAP

What are your objections? List them.

Our objections are that you are baiting people into fighting.

Is stating facts, considered baiting? I only am pointing out what has happened and would like someone to give me an explanation of cause and effect especially when they claim the opposite is true, i.e. that people in Indonesia are very peaceful, which is generally true. Are you so sensitive that you cannot discuss historical or religious events and give an explanation? All I was attempting to ascertain is, "are Indonesians very religious people, strictly observing the 5 pillars of Islam? Is that baiting?"

For example, the West are getting less and less religious, in the sense that they are abandoning their places of worship and not going to church except for weddings and funerals, and not observing all the orthodox doctrines of Christianity and living more and more a "nominal Christian life." Everyone knows that. Is that offensive? No, we discuss it openly. Even the Pope acknowledges that this is the modern trend.

So for me to ask if you are more religious today than your parents, is that wrong? Is it offensive? Please explain to me as I do not see it. I have studied the movements of Islam in North Africa, and in Europe, but I am not too familiar with Islam in South East Asia and I want to find out more. Is that Haram? Please tell me.

I think most of Indonesian muslims are religious and yet moderate.
Only small amount are extreme in desiring our country to adopting sharia laws and middle east customs.

On this year election, Islamist party like PKS and older Islamic Party such as PPP are not doing well in attracting voters. So the fact is political Islam that try to merging sharia law into our law and politics were not selling their ideas quite well to the people, most of Indonesian don't buy it. We flock to nationalist and democratic parties instead. I guess Indonesia as a nation-state are more emphasizing on Unity in Diversity. Our unity as one nation, one people, despites the differences of our races, ethnicities, and religions.

I'm a muslim but not a religious one, guess I'm not common Indonesian muslim.
Most of Indonesian muslim I know are religious by standard performing 5 pillars of Islam, but they also moderate and tolerant in their social interactions towards non-muslims.

Most of Indonesian have various outlook on their perspective.
In my political outlook I'm a nationalist-democratic, in my cultural-ethnic outlook I'm Sundanese-Javanese, and adore Balinese culture and ancient Java-Sunda Hindu culture, despite I'm not Hindu. In my spiritual outlook I'm a moderate muslim (not a religious one), tend to be more into philosophy in my spiritual outlook.
So I identify myself as human being first, Indonesian second, Sundanese-Javanese third, and muslim come in forth place.

Majapahitans thank you for your rational reply


I totally accept your statement above. But to me there are some contradictions here. I know most Indonesians are pious and moderate. And that is wonderful, but is that because by nature Indonesians believe in live and let live and are basically very nice people, or is it because many Indonesians have not been deeply religious and taken every word of Islam seriously because they did not know about it? It is probably the latter.

You say, "the small amount are extreme" again is vague, to me. Those small numbers are actually your orthodox Muslims who are more fervent and take every verse of the Koran more seriously. I do not see them as extremist, I see them as more fundamental, i.e. attempting to follow the teachings of Muhammad to the letter of the Koran.

Let my illustrate one common misconception in Islam, and that is the topic of "Abrogation" that I have posted on the Malaysian section to clarify why Islam can be so confusing to so many people, Muslims and non-Muslims.

"Abrogation of the Qur'an
Most Muslims when discussing with non-Muslims will attempt to portray Islam as a peaceful religion and will quote verses from the Quran that were written before Muhammad moved to Medina but still lived in Mecca. These early verses plagiarised the Jewish and Christian Bible text that promoted peace and tolerance for all religions. But this was deception, or Taqiyya to deceive or misinform the gullible unbeliever (non-Muslims). The Muslims fail to inform the unbeliever that although the verses that still remained in the Quran (for some oversight), had been nullified, abrogated, and rendered void by more recent verses which were issued by Muhammad when he was based in Medina and when he began his merciless raids on caravans and innocent villages killing and pillaging innocents. The Prophet Muhammad based his authority on the following Quranic verses:
Surah 2: 106
"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"
Surah 16:101
"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not."
A Muslim scholar and researcher Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr noted that of 114 Surahs (chapters) of the Quran, only 43 Surahs were not affected by abrogation, but as the abrogated verses were still inadvertently left undeleted and mixed in with the recently abrogated verses only serious scholastic Islamologists could possibly identify which was which.
THE VERSE OF THE SWORD
The verse that Abrogated (nullified) the 124 Peace Verses.
Surah 9:5 is on of the MOST SIGNIFICANT ABROGATIONS made by the Prophet Muhammad and is highlighted here because it is so important.
An example of the abrogation: There are 124 versus that call for tolerance and patience that have been cancelled and replaced by one, single verse. This verse is called the verse of the SWORD:
Surah 9:5
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)....."
Verses that support the verse of the Sword are:
1) Surah 9:14 “Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of believers”.
2) Surah 9:28 “O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque”.

3) Surah 9:30 “The Jews call ‘Uzayr a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!”.
4) Surah 9:73 “O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell – an evil refuge indeed”.
5) Surah 9:123 “O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him”.
Some of the verses abrogated by the verse of the Sword:
1) Surah 2:62 “Those who believe (in the Quran), and the Christians and the Sabians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve”.
2) Surah 2:109 “Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish his purpose”.
3) Surah 5:13 “But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them – barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind”.
4) Surah 6:70 “Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except Allah: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting Allah”.
5) Surah 8:61 “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah”.
6) Surah 29:46 “And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); but say, ‘We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)”.
7) Surah 2:83 “And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): worship none but Allah”.
8) Surah 2:139 “Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?”
9) Surah 2:190 “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.”
10) Surah 2:191 “But do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there”
11) Surah 2:192 “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful”.
12) Surah 2:256 “But there is no compulsion in religion”.
13) Surah 3:20 “So if they dispute with thee, say: ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me,’ And say to the People of the Book and so to those who are unlearned: ‘do ye (also) submit yourself? If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message”.
14) Surah 3:28 “Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourself from them”.
15) Surah 4:63 “Those men – Allah knows what is in their hearts; so keep clear of them, but admonish them, and speak to them a word to reach their souls”.
16) Surah 4:80 “He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: but if any turn away, we have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)”.
17) Surah 4:81 “But Allah records their nightly (plots): so keep clear of them, and put thy trust in Allah”.
18) Surah 4:84 “Then fight in Allah’s cause – thou art held responsible only for thyself”.
19) Surah 4:90 “Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore, if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of ) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)”.
20) Surah 5:2 “O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah, nor of the Sacred Month”.
Other verses that were abrogated by the verse of the sword:
Surah 5: 99
Surah 6: 66; 104; 106- 108; 112; 135; 158
Surah 7:183; 199
Surah 10: 41, 46, 99, 108, 109
Surah 11: 121
Surah 13: 40
Surah 15: 3, 85, 88, 94
Surah 16: 82, 125, 127
Surah 17: 54
Surah 19: 84
Surah 20: 130, 135
Surah 22: 68
Surah 23: 54, 96
Surah 24: 54
Surah 28: 55
Surah 30: 60
Surah 32: 30
Surah 33:48
Surah 34: 25
Surah 39: 15
Surah 41: 34
Surah 42: 6, 15, 48
Surah 43: 83, 89
Surah 44: 59
Surah 45: 14
Surah 46: 35
Surah 50: 39
Surah 52: 48
Surah 53: 29
Surah 58: 8-9, 11
Surah 73: 10
Surah 76: 8
Surah 86: 17
Surah 88: 22- 24
Surah 109: 6
If the Quran is really Allah's words, and as Allah is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-seeing why was it necessary for the Prophet Muhammad to make such a major changes in Allah's original verses (using abrogation)? This casts some doubts of the infallibility of the Quranic verses."

Now you see how confusing the Koran can be in its interpretations?

Majapahitans:

So you are confirming that parties like the PKS and the PPP and others do exist and are attempting to take Indonesia back into traditional Arabic Islam. I see that they have had some degree of success, maybe not much but some. Is it your leaders who are emphasising Unity or is it the people who desire Unity?



Now, I very much like this statement. If you are able to achieve it you will be a beacon for the Islamic world.



I suppose what you have described here is typical of most Muslims in this region of South East Asia. It is a very typical of Indonesia and Malaysia of the old days, but there are forces at work that can easily change the dynamics of feelings by using religious teachings that influence people. I have heard that the Indonesian government have sent many Islamic scholars to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey etc to study Islam. Whether this will mean that when these scholars return, they will teach more Arab type Islam, is something we have to watch and see. And this is what the world has come to think of Indonesians, as easy going and carefree peoples. And that is true of them generally. But you will agree that these simple kampong Indonesians can easily be manipulated by the Imams and other political and religious leaders? Because people can be influenced by stronger willed intelligent people, and that is where the danger lies.



If everyone on earth will think like you do, Majapahitans, I think we will have a much more peaceful world.

Personally I don't believe of nullify and abrogation of any verses in Quran, but tend to view each of the verses under the context and circumstances of the time the verses being revelated.
The different of Jesus and Muhammad is; Jesus is more like an Islamic sufi ideal, a wandering priest in search for spiritual enlightenment. While Muhammad is more like Moses; he is a prophet, a spiritual leader, a general or warlord, as well as a political and community (ummah) ruler. Maybe he at first preaching monotheism in pagan polytheistic Arabian tribes and link the new faith to the Abrahamaic tradition which include Judaism and Christianity. Preaching peace and coexistence. In Mecca Muhammad is rather powerless under the protection of his Qureish tribe.
But later in Medina, in context of heating rivalry and animosity with Meccan pagan that allegedly allied themself with Jew of Yathrib (Medina) to eradicated this new "dangerous" element led by Muhammad. Meccan Pagan and Yathrib Jew believe Muhammad and Islam is threathening their interest in Arabia. Thus there was revelation, verses that dealt with more earthy and political issues; to dealt with the pagan enemy and non-muslims, that might sounds more violent. But if you see the whole historical context, I think you will gain a better understanding. because Muhammad is not just a spiritual leader, he also well functioned as the political leader and community leader, and quite successfull I might say. He has united Arab tribes, lead a new faith, and died peacefully on his own bed rather than being executed by his enemy.

I would like to explain to you the nature of Indonesian spiritual view and Indonesian muslim.

At first Indonesian are seafaring people of Austronesian stock that believe in the potent of nature spirits to cause malevolent or good things to human beings, and worship the ancestors spirits as demigods figures. Our common spiritual view is awe and respect to natural forces, which is natural thing, because we lived in crown jewel of "ring of fire", on string of volcanoes and earthquake-tsunami prone region. Our primordial spiritual beliefs is respect of natural power; earth and sky, sea and mountain.

Later come Hinduism from India followed by Buddhism. Mainly this Indic Dharmic faith is gaving "color" on our ancestor's spiritual realm with rich Hindu patheon, Budhist tales and teaching, fascinating heroic epics such as Ramayana and Mahabharata. Indonesian since ancient times have this nature to adopt and adapt foreign influence, fashioned it to fit our taste and takings. For example in ancient Java, the case of Hindu social castes separations is not as severe or rigid as in India. For example Ken Angrok, a child with no clear parentage and belongs to lower caste can rise to become the first king of Singhasari and formed Rajasa dynasty, royal family of Singhasari and Majapahit.

Islam has penetrate the archipelago probably as early as 8th century, but the first Islamic states in Indonesian Archipelago was established in Aceh, Samudra Pasai, in 13th century. Islam face an already functioned, structured, some even sophisticated social fabrics and political institution of ancient Indonesia. Islam indeed reach ancient Indonesian slowly and spread mostly in peace. However there's some case of warfare might occur mostly for political gain. Later the Demak Sultanate set their foot on Java on the expense of weakening Majapahit Empire.

There's a lot of adaptation and compromize (from both side, traditionalist native and Islamic preacher) for Islam to gain followers in Indonesia. The "Wali Songo" or Javanese nine saints that spread Islam in Java most of them employ soft force and adaptation to gain Javanese follower. In Javanese and Sundanese case, some traditions that can be traced to our tribal animism-dynamism belief to Hindu ritual still performed by Indonesian muslims. The type of Islam that reach Indonesia for the first time are more into spiritual and sufistic tradition rather than emphasizing on sharia and Islamic laws. First Indonesian muslim probably not too seriously taking every words of Quranic verses, probably as Arabic only understand by a handful of Ulamas as some kind of spiritual elites.

Later the archipelago fell into European domination. Java, Sumatra, Maluku, Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Papua and many islands were under Netherland Indies. Christianity being promoted by European and gain followers too. In response of this foreign influence and occupation, there's a spirit to rejuvenate Islamic value and discover the "true" Islam, free from this pre-Islamic Indonesian culture. The rise of Muhammadiyah that reject traditional pre-Islamic traditions of Indonesia is the example. Probably as early as late 19th century well to 20th century Indonesian muslims grow more religious. It excalates in late 20th century. For example in 40's 60's to 70's there was almost no Indonesian muslim woman wearing jilbab or hijab or modesty veil, as more traditional muslim are enough on using simple veil or no veil at all. But nowadays the number of Indonesian woman wearing hijab is rising.

Despite of Indonesian muslim are grow more religious, majority are still moderate muslim. However there is fact that some of Indonesian muslim may fell into or choose fundamentalism Islam, thus the Bali Bombing happened. Yet I think since ancient times Indonesia has always have our own taste and own taking on foreign influences, including in this case Islam. All are adapted to our established value of basic beliefs of harmony and respect of natural power and the power of unseen. I think in some degree it has incorporated fashioned, selective adaptation, or merely focussed on compatible parts of Islam rather than completely imported and cloned whole Islamic and Middle eastern culture into Indonesian society.

@maja
not everyone are moderate, some are fundamentlist, but it is not only about Islam. atheism can be fricken conservative to the bone also. anti-arab sentiment too .... .

Majapahitans, thank you for tracing Indonesian history and explaining the development of your culture. I was already fully aware of the History of South East Asia. But thanks.



I find it fascinating that you believe,
" I think in some degree it(Indonesia) has incorporated fashioned, selective adaptation, or merely focussed on compatible parts of Islam rather than completely imported and cloned whole Islamic and Middle eastern culture into Indonesian society."

Which is probably entirely true and I do not disagree with you on this interpretation. But, as an ardent student of Islam, I believe that "incorporated fashioned, selective adaptation, ....focussed on compatible parts of Islam," is quite different from "orthodox Islam." This would be a separate discussion altogether as this would mean the definition of "What is Islam." (By orthodox I am abiding by the Merriam-Webster definition of orthodox.)

My interpretation of what is Islam is found in part from:

http://www.saaid.net/islam/4.htm

jrockerz,


What is a fundamentalist Muslim? Please be kind enough to define it for me. In fact define a Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism

jrockerz, I have no problem with that description in wiki. But I thought some may have a different perception of that word.

PS what is the significance of your signature photo?

I appreciate your concise history of Indonesian culture and I have been thinking about it ever since.



Majapahitans, What I find fascinating is the 'Gado-Gado' of cultures and religions in Indonesia. You have, in a few paragraphs traced Indonesia's adoption of religions starting with Shamanism, to Hinduism, to Buddhism, to Islam, with a sprinkle of Christianity, all within one nation, one peoples, and have evolved with a form of Islam that is, perhaps unique?

It would appear, therefore, that the religion Indonesian's practices today is perhaps a "gado-gado" that has absorbed a little of all of the previous religions that existed in Indonesia? The next question is, "Is the religion in Indonesia still in a state of flux and developing with time and events or is it in its stable form? Could we identify it as separate sect of Islam or is it an Islam in transition? Will the new 21st century have an affect on the basic philosophies of your culture as Indonesia seeks new inputs into your religious structures? For example, I believe that Indonesia is reaching out to Cairo and the Islamic al-Azhar University to educate your Islamic scholars. Will this alter the Islam in Indonesia as time progresses to bring you closer to the Arabic version of Islam? For example I have spotted this new development and wonder how that will affect Indonesian Imams of the future:

["Indonesia: Government devoted to Islamic Education
Jakarta, 20 J. Thani/ Aug.6 (IINA)-The Indonesian Minister of
Religious Affairs, Dr. Said Agil Munawar said that his government is
devoted to Islamic education for children, youth and adults.
In Indonesia, there are many Islamic schools and institutes, which
Muslims can join from primary to university level. In Jakarta, there
is an Islamic University, which operates the syllabus of the Al-Azhar
University.
The Minister, in an interview with the Da’awa Magazine, added that in
Indonesia there Islamic schools and institutes, some are government
owned but many are privates. In some of these schools many Arab
teachers from Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia, are working. The
graduates of these schools are working in the field of Da’awa and
teaching.
He said that the Indonesian people is following with interest and
concern the plight of the Muslims Umma, particularly the events in
Iraq and Palestine.
Indonesia is the biggest Muslim country in terms of population, which
is 205 million."
http://www.iacad.gov.ae/vEnglish/detailnew...D=4014&pa...
"Al Azhar University welcomed cooperation with Indonesia's Islamic and
educational institutions and expressed readiness to provide them with
teaching staff in all educational domains. This came during the talks
between Al Azhar University's President Ahmad El Tayeb and Indonesia's
Shura Council Speaker Mohammed Hedaiat Nour Waheed. Al Tayeb stressed
on the importance of supporting Islamic education which protects the
nation from terror. "
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-131610743.html]"

These are questions I raise because it is important to realise that Islam is not stagnant. I has an influence in our world today. This is why I raise this question, will Indonesia be altering its concepts of Islam in the coming near future? Or will Indonesia change with the times?

Like all cultural phenomena, religion is not static but changes over time.
The more dogmatic any belief or culture is, the more resistent it is to change, but over a length of time change is inevitable.
The thing I love about religions in Indonesia, and indeed all the myriad cultures, is that they retain their unique identities and overwhelmingly coexist in a harmonious state of flux.
Sort of like the "salad bowl" analogy of multiculturalism, as distinct from the "melting pot" where the emphasis is on blending in and conforming to a homogenous society.

Yes these party are pushing their agenda to adopt many sharia laws and pushing Indonesia colser to traditional arabic Islam. At first they gain their success, but after we see Bali blast, there is the fear that this kind of fundamentalist religious sentiments may harm our national interest and Indonesian unity. Recent election shows the fall of people's favour for Islamic parties.

I've learn that indeed some elements of Indonesian muslim is attempting to make Indonesia to be an Islamic nation. Growing closer to Arab world and middle east, adopting more sharia laws, etc. However since the first time Indonesia proclaimed our independence, we already held the idea of modern state in sense of cosmopolitan unity and nationhood, not based on ethno-religious sentiments. Indonesia as diverse country with multi-culture, multi-ethnics, and multi-religion. Yes Indonesia is the largest nation with muslim population, but it well contained in Java, Sumatra, parts of Kalimantan and Sulawesi. While other parts of Indonesia have christianity, catholics, or even tribal beliefs as majority.
This "growing closer" to Islam is quite a sensitive issue in our nationhood. If Indonesia become an islamic states, adopt sharia laws, etc; some provinces with non-muslim majority such as Bali, East Nusatenggara, North Sulawesi, North Sumatra, Maluku, and Papua, has gaving sign of disaproval. We fear that these provinces may leave Indonesian Republic if Indonesia grow to become Islamic state. That's why Indonesia is more cautious in this Islamic sharia matter, unlike on other case; Malaysia that open their arms widely for Arab world's teaching, investment, and sharia bussiness.

It was our national interest to maintain unity and just for all Indonesian (sound utopian, but we try to achieve it). Both Indonesian people and leader probably share this sentiments and favour for unity. Becase one united, stable, strong, democratic, peaceful Indonesia is better than fragments of some 7 or something small states, cluster of countries similar to East Timor. We don't want Indonesia break apart like the fate of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union.



I'm surely hope so...
However Indonesia may serve just as an example, not necesary to become the leader, because our lack of "legitimation".
As you have point out, Indonesia is not fully or (not at all) adopt and uphold orthodox traditional Islam based on sharia laws, Quran, and Hadith.
Indonesia on the other hand has always cautiously (suspiciously..?) deal with this Islamic elements, especially the radical element of muslim world.




Yes we learn that there is forces in work here. A force to pull Indonesia closer to arab nations and middleast culture in adopting orthodox Islam. A force to influence Indonesian people and manipulated them to serve the radical's agenda. However vice versa, there's also a force to maintain our own identity, our own culture, our own taking and understanding of Islam, our desire to maintain harmony and national unity, etc. and I say that force is the majority here. Although Indonesia may always seen as the marginal part of Islamic world, even mocked us as muslims that not practicing the "true" Islam, so be it. Personally I don't mind that, because all's in God's hand. It is up to God to see and judge us, it's God secret and prerogative, not mere mortals.




Amen and thank you....

Salad Bowl...? I love your analogue...
Gado-gado is more locally known; Indonesian vegetables salad with peanut sauce dressing...

Well then, I guess the three of us are talking about the same thing.

So perhaps the answer to the opening question is that, Indonesians are very religious or spiritual, but each in their own way.
And they all live together remarkably well, given the huge diversity throughout the "Thousand Islands".

elleX0 why do YOU care so much about how Indonesians live their lives..? Where are you from anyways?

In the 19 years I have stayed in Indonesia I have seen many changes in Indonesian behaviour, and I don’t think for the better. On the other hand I think “silakan aja”, I am not Indonesian so I believe they have to do what they think it’s the best for themselves.

When I came to Indonesia in 1990 women wearing a kerundung were quite rare, but nowadays it’s an obligation at many schools and government offices. I also see the way Indonesians dress changing, when one walks in the streets more and more Arab looking clothing, can be seen. Also at wedding receptions people are more often getting dressed like Arabs, as if they don’t like their national costume anymore. I wonder when they are going to ride camels. The speakers on the masjid are getting bigger and bigger, like Indonesian people are deaf. What was 500 Watt in 1990 is 10.000 and more watts in 2009. Watching TV is becoming also a religious affair, people saying all the time “Amin” and “Insy’Allah” even praying before answering a question in a quiz or trying to win a singing contest. Also daily speech is mixed with all kind of religious expressions. These are just observations of an outsider during 19 years but my conclusion is that Indonesians are changing in a certain way. I think it’s a pity as they were always very tolerant, especially the Javanese, but Anno 2009 there seems to be only one way of thinking and behaving

Miubaby, because I am interested in people, cultures and religions. Indonesia will be changing, and changing very fast in this computer age. 50 years for now, Indonesia will not be like what it is today, and I am very interested to see the transformation. Why? because what happens to Indonesia will affect the whole of south east Asia, and the world. Indonesia is today in a state of flux, and we should all voice our ideas and exchange opinions about the changes that must occur. I can see it even if you cannot.

My Profile shows that I am British and live in England. I know SE Asia well. I even love gado-gado and satay and ketupat, and I adore Nasi Padang.

londoh, a fascinating observation. Exactly the same is happening in Malaysia as well. I believe that Indonesians and Malays are becoming more conscious of their religious identity and are getting more pious but less tolerant. Is this more influence from the Middle East or is Indonesia reaching out to the Middle East for guidance?

Sorry if some of us misjudged you. Your tone was rather strident and we mistook you for another troll who simply wants to bait members into fighting. I can see now that you are participating in a constructive manner. Glad to have an intellectual here with whom to discuss all kinds of topics.

Ja Oom Lon..., that's right, and in some case alarming and annoying too... I hope we "tidak kebablasan"
I remember attending my friend's wedding in a mosque. Traditional Indonesian way of "Hajatan Pernikahan" is both the bride and groom is sit together side by side at pelaminan with their parents, and invited guests congratulate them.
But my friend (the bride) has become a more pious (or fundamentalist?) muslim, and they separate bride and groom, guest by gender, men separated from women, separated with "tabir" low cloth. I think what? is this "sholat"? and which Arab country they adopt this weird wedding customs. I only allowed to greet the groom, wth..? my friend is the bride, so I went across the tabir. I heard the "panitia" yell behind me, but I ignore him "belagak bego" and come near my friend the bride and congratulate her. As I congratulate them, I think they may go as well to Arabian desert "sekalian"...

Anyway, that's only rare case of many normal wedding I've attend. And you're right about Adzan speakers... It getting louder. Also now adzan to sign the praying time is not enough, 30 minutes earlier there is some kinde of "prelude warning" before adzan... I might say its quite annoying.

Last time I stayed in the Sparks Hotel Jakarta, there was a competition between the call to prayer and the strip club downstairs.
Both of them were cranking up their PA ever louder..... and I just wanted to go to sleep

I am not able to compare Indonesia with the Middle East, except for a few airports I have never been there. But I have seen the Indonesians moving towards a direction that looks like they are exchanging their culture for something else that is not their own. They are also building many new masjid that look like being inspired from the Middle East. There is a lot of talking about “budaya kita” in Indonesia but they seem to like better foreign influences than what has been of their own for ages. Those changes went very fast the last 5 years. Which I always liked very much was the talking that was done in the evening, in front of the house, all kind of stories, old and new. But the last few years everybody seems to communicate through mobile phones, dimana-mana mereka berada, even tukan beca.

londoh, As I have said, the Indonesian culture is a "Gado-Gado" of shamanism,Buddhism,Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, all in the same bowl and the flavour is Indonesian ground peanuts with honey added. Unfortunately, with the wealth in the Middle East, they are attempting to homogenise the "Gado-Gado" with a flavour of Cairo. Saudi Arabia is also exporting their Wahhabi ideology all over the world, and in recent years have Indonesia and Malaysia in their sights. Hence the massive mosques, the well endowed Madrassahs, and the export of their Imams and religious teachers. But let me quote from a comment that I believe is revelant:


http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=213072

Ayam sori, Indonesian culture is more and more becoming a mix of over aged dates, dry sand, pyjamas, jellaba's, turbans, burkha and fata-morganas.

Indonesia is also a land of many contradictions torn to many conflicting different directions, as if many battles/conspiracies were being waged simultaneously between the good, the bad and the ugly. Like you say the balance of western hegemony is being challenged in Indonesia (SEA) in all fronts economically from China and India and ideologically -after the fall of the commies-from this radical fundie.
And the ever rapid growth of Muslims diasporas in the west is also of no help, the hate mongers paint the all Muslim in one big brush, "they all must be terrorists ya see because it’s in their holy book to wage jihad against all the kafirs and here are the proof of ayahs that command it to the believers!".
Unfortunately most Indo Muslims today (including me) are not fond of reading let alone reading critically to give an intelligence rebuttal. Another irony, considering the first ayah in Al Qur’an is Iqra (read!), it’s the call to educate one's self.
Just My 2 rupiahs.

ALLLLLRIGHTY thennnn...

find out what 'nyolot' means.. No wonder everyone here initially thought you were a troll :p Exchanging opinions is definitely encouraged, but demeaning attitude is not.

I know that your profile shows that you live in England, but that doesnt tell me that you are originally British, does it? Just like how my profile shows that I live in Grand Cayman (Cayman Island) - but I am not Caymanian.. Therefore, again, why not just answer the question like a normal person and lose the tone..

^ Rofl

oh yeah, where did the hindu culture come from? indonesia? ... i hope so ...

muibaby, there is no requirement that I have to trace my genealogy to post here. I have given you as much information as I have given any other discussion site and been fully accepted. My screen name, pen name, or pseudonym is "elleX0" and I am male and married. That should be sufficient for anyone. I am not looking for a partner.

Yeah Indonesia is open to foreign influences since ancient times... And Indonesian like to add foreign elements and mix it up.
In recent decades, Arabic-Islamic-Middle eastern influence (as stated by Oom Lon) indeed is getting stronger. To some degree Indonesian muslim grow more Arabianized... Today more muslim women wearing hijab compared to my mother's generation.
Yet I hope in this Islamic influencing case, it is not only one way street. Indonesian moderate muslim probably could contribute too, Indonesian "type" or understanding of Islam probably could influence the rest of Islamic world. Despite I'm quite unsure since Middle East is complex and probably not willing to learn from us, marginal muslim.

Like jilbab/hijab/tudung maybe... I heard Indonesian new type of muslim fashion even influenced our closest muslim neighbour, Malaysia... They called it "Tudung Indon" :





I think its a nice change compared to, let say..., this one:







Maybe Indonesia's more relaxed muslim fashion can influenced other muslim countries.

In Islamic fashion issue; hijab as modesty garments for muslim women, even Indonesian leading Ulama and Qur'an interpreter (Tafsir Quran) like Quraish Shihab said there's alot of disagreement among Ulamas about the standard of modesty requirements in Islamic world. Is it like in Afghan's burqa where even the eyes are unseen behind the mask? in Iran with black long chador? or is it Indonesia's and Malaysia's type of tudung/hijab/jilbab? or not wearing any head garments at all as long as dress politely like woman of secular Turkey or many Indonesian muslim woman.


Quraish Shihab

Shihab being confronted in this issue by an Indonesian muslim women (wearing hijab) because many of women in Shihab family are not wearing hijab (Najwa Shihab, MetroTV anchor lady everyone..?). Shihab point out that hijab is good for modesty, but there is no law in forcing for muslim woman to wearing hijab in Islam, and there's no guarantee that wearing hijab can simply be equal to "good woman", and probably Allah didn't ask us to be that far in this dress modesty issue.


Najwa Shihab

I'm not a fan of hijab woman..., IMHO it is not compatible with our humid and tropical climate.
I still hold my understanding on Islam hijab issues, that woman are not have to wearing any head garments, just nice dress (or polite for religious sake) will do.

Indonesian muslim woman used to dress like this:







Indonesian first firstlady, Fatmawati, wife of Sukarno.


In further past, era of Javanese Mataram, Solo, Yogya Sultanate, Javanese muslim women even dress like this:

Mas maja careful, u don’t want to jinx it.
What if you were destined to cross your path with one of those hijabis beauty, hah?

Btw…apus donk in kotaknya mo ngimel nih.

majapahitans, thank you for all the photos. I agree with all you have said. Perhaps the more relaxed outlook in S.E. Asia is the answer. I certainly agree with your comments about the heat and humidity in the tropics should be a major consideration is the way people dress. The Koran's message of women's dress is very general and liberal. It may have been misinterpreted by man.