as i always say, they just doesn't have faith enough in islam. thats why they need to create this rule.... so pathetic...

See the message you are sending to the world? You're giving Islam and Malaysian Muslims a bad name with this pathetic excuse for a law!

Crap!!!! Why we want to feel ashame while you the one one think us otherwise by labbelling us with everything. I almost think that you the one who have the problem against Malays. We Malays just follow the basic teaching of Islam. I don't see nothing wrong with that. Non-Muslims in Malaysia especially Christian was the one who had the trouble and hold the grudge against Muslim as their counterpart do around the globe. They hate Islam so much and that why they preached Muslims to be like them.
As about the Malays who want to convert they just a tiny tiny minority. Since when in democracy these tiny minority have priority over majority. Majority of Malays happy about the law as Fadlee already stress out before.

Bhaskara, apa perasaan anda jikalau salah satu ahli keluarga anda murtad?

@betong: You should know that there's a clause called protection of the minority, and it's the duty of a government to see that every single citizen has their rights and duties in the right place. I know that there are a lot of Muslims that have been mistreated all around the world, but that's not the reason to take it on the minorities. Instead, you should care about them and show the world what peaceful and tolerant religiona Islam is

@tengkuafif: What would I do if one member of my family declared apostasy? I would talk to her/him first, so I would know her/his reasonings. If he/she is doing it for the right reason (not just because he/she wanted to hurt his/her family's feeling, for example), I will support her/him. Because religion is a personal thing, so everyone is entitled to choose her/his own religion. You can't force it, it's in you.

Those close only avaiable if it's doesn't effect the majority Malays. Sure in Malaysia, majority of Malays against that move. We certainly doesn't murder those minority Malays who want to convert (not much) and certainly none of them ever prosecuted. I think it better for us to protect the majority than ignore those ignorant minority. Those ignorants minority often influance by others who like to see us Malays become ununited for their political need.
Islam always tolerent, peaceful and prograssive. Maybe you just refer those terrorist(al qaeda or anyone) who give bad name about Islam. But you certainly don't refer the US and British as terrorists when they terrorist people of Iraq and Afghanistan. We didn't have those bad apple(terrorist) in Malaysia. Maybe you need to adjust your mind a little bit and stop your generalization for Muslim around the globe.

You see, I would really to do that, to see the world see Islam in a different light. But this situation in Malaysia doesn't do any good at all to the image of Islam. People react to what the media give them, and all this time what they know about Islam are not pretty.

There is nothing wrong with following the basic teachings of Islam. Christians in Malaysia are unhappy with the situation becasue they feel they have less rights then the Muslims do. For hundreds of years my Catholic family has lived happily beside thier Muslim neighbours. Its only been in the last decade that I've heard Christians expressing dissatisfaction with the way they are being treated unfairly. The only reason Christians hold a grudge in Malaysia is because there are no laws protecting the rights of Christians. As there are minority Christians trying to convert Muslims there are also minority Muslims trying to convert Christians. If there was a bigh push either way for conversion, in the 500 odd years that both religions have been living side by side don't you think something more would have happened? Your fear that Chrisitans are going to all out to actively try to convert Muslims are unfounded and untrue, as you yourself have stated the number of Muslims trying to convert is very small. Globally there are just as many if not more so Muslims who hate Chriatians as there are Christians who hate Muslims. Just look at the international news. Muslism hate Christians so much that they are prepared to kill other many more Muslims in order to kill some Christians.

Minorities never have precedence over majorities but it is often the rights of minorities thatare trampled over, just look at Malaysia, which is the reason why the govnt need to take special efforts to protect the rights of minority groups. The question I would like to ask you though is this, how does the conversion of other people affect you personally. How would the conversion of Lina Joy to Christianity affect you personally? The answer is that it doesn't.

Protect the majority against what???? And why do you assume they are ignorant?


And this the true reason for the law. It has nothing to do with religion or Allah or Islam. Its to do with politics. There are Muslim who are so affraid of losing political power, they create laws to make sure that people stay on their side. This is how UMNO works.


I don't agree with the Coalition forces being in Iraq and Afghanistan but, if Al Qaeda had not attacked the US, none of this would have happened. If you want to know if the British and US are terrorists, why don't you actually ask the people of Iraq and Afghanistan who they see as being terrorists, the British and US forces or the people fighting under the Muslim banner, killing other innocent Muslims. Remember most of the people doing the killings in Iraq at least are not Iraqis.

Terrorists in Malaysia? Sure you have, the Bali bombers were Malaysian Muslim. You say that people shouldn't generalise about Muslims around the globe, and I agree with you. Yet you happily generalise about Christians. Most of your accusations about Chriatians are baseless, probably something you learnt in religious school, hardly objective. If you want to know about Christians, get to know them, join their family for a meal, join them for their celebrations, observe(not participate) their religious festivals and not from a distance but up close. Until you are prepared to do this, you can't make general comments about Christians.

btw... how do u know malay that want to convert just tiny tiny minority? the law already stated clearly there, MAYBE they are some that do considered to convert but since there is this law, they can't do anything except accept it isn't it? To prove your point, just change the law and we shall see the statistic. it is as simple as that.

Moving to serious discussion. --->

Yeah, if it's really true what you said about most Malay Malaysians don't want to convert, you've got nothing to worry about even if you change the law

Islam is a must for Malays in Malaysia ... if they want to get "special treatment" from Gov't and also a "ticket" to entry to the "heaven" when you die...

Please note that Gabriel will give "special gate" for muslim malays if they can show their ticket to him...

The majority of the Malays want to keep this law. Case close. Majority rules. This law is not applicable to foreigners or non Muslims, so they have nothing to worry about. Anyway, there is a big Malay church in PJ. I just wonder why nobody make a fuss about that?

These laws will always effcet non Malays. And just becasue the majority may want it it doesn't mean that it sould be kept. The job of the govnt is to protect the rights of the minority as well as the majority. By the way, how do you know that the majority want it. Have you polled every Malaysian citizen to ask them. Since these laws effect every Malaysian citizen then all citizents not just Malays should have a say.

How many Chinses mosques are there, I'll bet more then just the one church in PJ. I've never heard of a Malay Church, even if there was one so what???

Yes, how would you know that if you haven't done any poll for everyone to vote?

yoo "idiot malay", shut the fuk off.. shud i change my name to "IdiotChinese" haa?? fukin racist..

I've been away from this forum for so long ... but here's my response on this issue:

I see so much hatred for Islam in this thread ... subtle and open hatred. Anti-Islam forumers here are just too upset that the majority of Muslim Malays in Malaysia want their government to play a role in protecting Islam and the Islamic identity of the Malays...

You guys are forgetting one big thing .... the anti-murtad law is in place in Malaysia not so much because the Malaysian govt wants it ... the govt of Malaysia today is full of westernized, pro-murtad "liberal Muslims" and "liberal Malays" who would be more than happy to throw Islam completely out of the Constitution, out of the Malay life, and probabaly of Malaysia as well ...

UMNO and the government of Malaysia are today controlled by anti-Islam liberal Malay Muslim politicians and their family members and friends. These liberal Malay Muslims are more than happy not only to legalize apostasy but to kill of Islam as well if they really had a chance....people like Datuk Nazri, Rais Yatim .. people like Nori Abdullah Badawi , the late Endon Abdullah Badawi, Zainah Anwar, Zaitun Kassim and the rest of the women in 'Sister of Islam' (a liberal Malay Muslim women organization openly calling for legalization of apostasy and the shutting down of the sharia Islamic system ).. people like Kalimullah of the New Straits Times (a media organization completely controlled by liberal Malay Muslims and their non-Muslim cheerleaders)....

These liberal Malay Muslims are so powerfully entrenched in the Malaysian govt and UMNO that all they need to do to kill off Islam is to amend the Constitution to legalize apostasy as well as to promote a host of anti-Islam agendas with the support of their Christian, Buddhist and Hindu friends ... but they are not doing it because the fear the backlash from moderate Malay Muslims .... they tried to set up the IFC (Inter-faith Commission) as a front to promote apostasy but the plan was killed off due to massive opposition from moderate Muslims ... moderate Malay Muslims are watching very closely what these liberal Malay Muslims are doing ...

So, guys in case you still don't know ... the anti-apostasy law will stay intact not because the the Malaysian government that keeps it intact ... it is the Malay Muslim majority rakyat that wants that law kept ... we are the ones that force the govt to keep this law and we are the ones that want the anti-apostasy law implemented .. not the govt... the govt is doing it only because it represents us ... as the Malay Muslim majority rakyat, we're just protecting our Islamic religion .. of course, Islam never asks us to protect it .. it is strong enough by itself .. but we take it as a responsibility to protect it.. and it is nobody's business how we go about protecting our religion...

You don't like our anti-apostasy law? Who cares what you like or don't like either ... to foreigners from Indonesia, Singapore, Australia and elsewhere .. if you don't like some of our laws, then we don't like some of your laws either ... but it's none of our business to interfere in your countries, right?

You can bark all you want against our anti-apostasy law all you like but who cares ... to foreigners from Indonesia, Singapore and elsewhere .. why don't you focus on the so many discrepancies and problems in your own countries before you decide to meddle in our country ... we don't need your meddling... and in case you don't know ... your countries are far from being good models for Malaysia.. I'm not impresseed at all with your systems ..

And by the way, there's a world of differences between a "LIBERAL Malay Muslim" and a "MODERATE Malay Muslim". Don't confuse yourself between "liberal" and "moderate" ... they're not the same ... LIBERALS will always try to present themselves as MODERATES but that's a farce ... "LIBERAL" people are extremists out to force people accepts their views ... MODERATES don't force people .. they just defend their rights ... and Malaysian Malay Muslims have always been moderates from Parameswar to Abdullah Badawi .....

To continue ...

I can assure you that if tomorrow the Malaysian government abolishes the anti-apostasy law, there will be massive riots in the Muslim streets of Malaysia ... there will be no peace for this country.

Why? Because the moderate Muslim majority of Malaysia wants that law regardless of whether the govt itself wants it or not... we have the Sultans and the Yang DiPertuan Agong who are not only Heads of Islam but protectors of the religion as well ...

The majority of Malaysian Malay Muslims are moderates .. we're not PAS members ... that's why in the past we have successfully rejected PAS Islamic fundamentalism that went around telling us that UMNO people are kafirs. This time we're going to defeat another form of extremism coming from the left ... the LIBERAL extremists who, under the guise of human rights, are trying to destroy Islam in Malaysia ...

Apostasy is not permitted in Islam although there is nowhere in the Quran that says that apostates should be punished by death... I personally do not wish for apostates to be punished by death..

But in Malaysia, we officially have Islam as the official religion .. that alone means that we officially have taken upon ourselves to implement Islamic laws to the best we can while accepting the multi-religious constraints in our society....

Implementing these laws means that Muslims will not be permitted to do things that the Quran forbids.... apostasy is one of the things that is forbidden by Islam, and so we have laws that forbid apostasy .. we also have laws that forbid adultery among Muslims, laws that forbid public food consumption during fasting month, laws that forbid close proximity (khalwat between Muslim men and women), laws that forbid Muslims from gambling, laws that forbid Muslim men from polygamy without notifying the authorithies, laws that forbid Muslim women from participating in beauty contests ... to name juts a few

Having said all these, why should you guys be surprised or upset that we have anti-apostasy laws. We have many laws that require us to live in accordance with Islam, is that a surprise to you? We all have to live under some set of laws, no matter where we live, right? In Malaysia, we the Muslims have chosen to live under a set of Islamic laws ... including law that pertains to apostasy ...

By the way ... apostates are not legally imprisoned, stoned, tortured or beaten up in Malaysia ... only that their conversion to another religion is not officially recognized. A Muslim actually can still commit apostasy ... but he will lose his/her status as a Malay and so will lose all Malay/Bumiputra priviliges....

But the biggest "punishment" is not from the govcernment ... it comes from family members and friends .. an apostate will most surely be rejected by his family and some friends ... and there is no law that ask family to reject apostaes..

The anti-apostasy law is just there to discourage apostasy ... just as anti-adultery law is there to discourage adultery ... or anti-corruption law is designed to discourage corruption .. or anti-murder laws are to discourage murders. Yet, we know that all these laws cannot prevent apostasy, adultery, corruption and murder.

But to have no laws at all just because the crimes and infractions will take place anyway with or without law is also unacceptable. We continue to have anti-corruption laws although we still cannot stop corruption because what else can we do?

So, in Malaysia, we continue to have anti-apostasy law for that same reason.

Many of you guys on this forum are not Muslims .... even if you happen to come from the world's most populous Muslim country.. so you can't possibly feel Muslims' passion about apostasy...

And to the Muslims ... don't believe it if they say anti-apostasy laws will bring shame to Malaysia or Malaysia's image. It's no shame at all!

Don't listen to all the craps that these non-Muslims and liberal Muslims are trying to sell you. We don't owe them anything at all. The real shame is when you as a Muslim have become so liberal like them that you have joined them in bashing your own religion.

Look at Islam today ... they are busy painting it as a terrorist religion when it is the Muslim countries that are being invaded and terrorized. Now, they're also telling you that you're not trendy and modern and liberal enough if you support anti-apostasy law. You're being told you're a shame to yourself if you keep this anti-apostasy law. Don't listen to them!


All they want is for you Muslims to be liberal enough so that in the end Islam is nothing but an empty religion with no followers.

Swing Doc & Bhaskara

Why would you want to ask every single Malaysian citizen for this. Polling usually being done by random sample. All I can see here that every single Malay muslim here wants to keep this law. If this does not represent majority, then I don't know what to say. I don't see how this law will affect non muslim and foreigner. Give me a good example.

I'll give you an example. I have a distant cousin whose parents are unmarried, she is Muslim because her father is Muslim, although since the day she was born he has never been a part of her life. She wants to be Catholic because the rest of her family is Catholic and she believes in Christianity. She cannot practice her choice of religion in public, in fear of being arrested. It is affecting the rest of her family. So, don't tell me these laws don't affect anybody else. Everytime any religious law is made enforcible it AFFECTS everybody.

Here's another example, my granduncle married a Muslim lady, to marry, he had to convert but neither he nor his wife were practicing Muslims. Unfortunately when his kids were 9 and 11, his wife died, at that time he had to bring his children up as Muslims otherwise they could have be removed from him eventhough even when his wife was alive they weren't religious. To claim that it doesn't affect anybody else is pure crap. The truth is this even if individuals convert, it doesn't affect anybody else, this situation is truly when it doesn't affect anybody else.


Can you tell me that every Malaysian citizen wants to keep this law? Or even all Malays?

Firstly nobody is bashing Islam, but we are against how Islam is implemented in Malaysia because it affects all Malaysians. Everybody believes that their religion is the one true religion, the point is that the govnt shouldn't pick sides. The govnt represents everybody EQUALLY not just one section of the community regardless of weather that section is the majority or not.

Nobody here has claimed that Islam is a terrorists religion, you are delusional, did you learn from some biased religious teaching that everybody else is trying to paint Islam as a terrorists group? Islam is not a terrorists religion but the fact remains that SOME people who claim to be practitioners of Islam propogate the use of violence to achieve their own selfish purposes. I'll ask you a question, do you support Al Queda? Do you believe that the use of violence is justified in Iraq and Afghanistan? Furthermore weather Iraq and Afghanistan are Muslim countries is irrelevant, the only thing that is relevant is weather the citizens of these countries want the military forces there. Remember that the overwhelming majority of the terrorists in Iraq are NOT Iraqis. The terrorists are from other countries, and they are happy to kill fellow Muslims, why? For the benefit of Islam or the local Iraqis? Definitely not! Their actions don't benefit Islam nor does it benefit the local Iraqis. Their actions are politically motivated, plain and simple. Supporting anti-apostasy laws has nothing to do with being trendy or modern or liberal, its to do with giving evey individual the right to choose their own religion. If you support apostasy laws, then would you support it for Christians as well? Afterall the bible also says that the greatest sin someone can commit is to reject God, once having accepted him. Shopuld Christians also not be allowed to change religions? What is important to you, Islam as a religion or the political power of Islam, having people who practice Islam on paper only but not in their hearts will do noting for Islam. The only thing it may achieve is to give Islam some political power.




[b]Apostasy laws are not about religion, it is about power[/b]

...

You are so paranoid. Have you ever thought that you could be wrong? Remember Malaysia is not 100% Malay or Muslim. Malay's as much need to learn to live with people of other races and other religions, as other races and religions need to learn to live next to Malays and Muslims. Who has EVER called for Islam to be thown out of the constitution or from Malaysia. Neither does the constitution protect apostacy laws. There is no where in the constitution that says Muslims cannot convert to another religion.

Furthermore, Malaysia is a multireligious country, the Interfaith commision was set up to promote tolerace between religions, to teach people not to fear other religions and promote understanding between religions, why is this wrong? Or do you not give a $hit and believe that Muslims should be allowed to do whatever they want irrespective of how it affects other people and other religions? The IFC has NOTHING to do with apostacy. The only religion that was against the IFC was the Muslims. How is dialog between religions promoting apostacy?? Do "Moderate Muslims" not believe in inter-religious harmony? By the way your definitions are wrong, your definition of "Moderate" is actually "Conservative" or "Fundametalist" look up your definitions.

^^Ah Esfandiari, now your true colours come out

Yes the Sultans are the protectors of Islam but certainly they themselves are not true practitioners of Islam. I know of Sultans who drink alcohol and I also know for a fact that one of the Princes had sex outside marriage with a Muslim girl and that he drank as well. Sultans also take second wives without the consent of their first wives.

Your definitions here are on the assumption that in Malaysia, Islam is a STATE religion, when it is only the OFFICIAL religion. When a religion is the state religion, the yes, all the religious laws apply, but not when its just the official religion. If you read the process of how the Malaysian Constitution was written, the draftees of the Constitution were at pains to ensure that Islam was not the state religion, to protect the rights of other religions. But they wanted to recognise the historical importance of Islam to the "original" people of Malaysia, thats why they recognised its importance by acknowledging it as the Official religion. Besides what is specifically written in the constitution ie it is the govnts responsibility to "look after" Islam ie build mosques etc, the constitution provides no other special privilidges for Islam. Its people today who try to extend the definition of Official futher to try to make it more State.

Nope!! It's your colors that have come out truly to its stripes!! And I can see clearly where you're coming from!! Christians like you are not demanding minority rights which you're entitled as a minority ...but you're beginning to act like a majority and you're demanding majority rights! And you want us Muslims to act like a minority and you the majority..

Malaysia may not be a 100% Muslim country but it is always a country that is based on Islamic and Malay traditions ...just like England and America are based on Judeo-Christian traditions even if they're not thecratically Christian countries..

Just as we Muslim minority have to act like a minority in America and can't expect to demand extra religious rights for Islam, then you the Christian minority in Malaysia canntt expect to demand extra rights for your Christian reliogion. Christianity is a minority religion in Malysia and cannot and will never be allowed equal status with Islam in Malaysia just as Islam will never be accorded equal status with Christianity in Italy...

So,act like a minority for goddamn sake!! And we will respect your minority rights ....but demanding the repeal of apostasy law is beyond your minority right! Get lost if you don'tlike our law!!

Yeah ... go ahead trying to confuse people with your STATE-OFFICIAL dichotomy for Islam .... even if it's an official religion, then that's already a special status for Islam ... then Islam is the ONLY official religion of Malaysia .... certainly this 'official' status is not accorded to Christianity,Buddhism and Hinduism..

And as long as it remains 'official', it means that we Muslims want to be governed by Islam to a certain degree...and apostasy law is part and parcel of this Islamic governance ...

And as far as I and the millions of Muslim in this country are concerned, STATE or OFFICIAL religion is the same ..... the drafters of Malaysia's Constitution had aknowledged that Islam is a special religion in Malaysia, way above the other religions..

It is up to us the Malay Muslim majority to decide whether we want Islam or not in our law to govern us ...not up to Christians like you.. we don't force you the Christian people to be MUslim .... consider that a right already granted toyou ... so,hand off Islam!!

And now ... to stoop even lower ..you're insulting the Sultans just to justify your demands that you be given extra perverted rights for the Christian minority and to press on your demands to be treated as majority status...

Christian priests screwed young boys and booze up when they need recreation too ...they're just humans ... but that doesn't stop them from being the Christian conscience, right? So, what is there to surprise me that Some Sultans booze up the barins out of themselves?? You're not revealing anything new ..

So cut these craps about some Sultans getting boozed up and all that jazz!! We know that, it's no secret! But it still doesn't change their Constitutional role as the Head and Defenders of Isla

Edited by request.

Edited by request.

Re-opening by request.
Try to keep the posts really constructive guys because I'll be modding it heavy-handed.

Yes, which Islamic country in the world today is strong in technology science, R&D, literature, etc?

The answer is a big NONE!

Drop Islam and malays would be a better race!

You are the one who called me a dog, and you call yourself a good Muslim.
The many minority groups in Malaysia are not calling for majority rights, they are calling for equal rights.
In every so called "Christian" country in the world be it the US, UK and even in Rome, Muslims share the same rights as non Muslims. It is only in some predominantly Muslim countries that non Muslims have less rights. If you think that Malaysia is based on Malay and Islamic traditions, need I remind you that in the past Malaysia was a predominantly Hindu country and that the laws, education system, form of government and even health profession were adopted from the British, a predominantly Christian country. Some aspects of Malay culture is also Hindu in origin, ie wayang kulit.
I don't have to act like a "minority". You are just a bully with empty rhetoric "religious racists" views. By the way I'm no longer Malaysian, and before you tell me to piss off, I'll tell you that this is an open forum, you may feel you can shut non Muslims up in Malaysia by intimidating them and swearing at them, and by insulting them and their families when you have no intelectual argument to make but it doesn't work here and it certainly won't work with me.

It means NOTHING what the Muslims in Malaysia think about the difference between STATE and OFFICIAL religion in Malaysia. The Malaysian Constitution was drawn up to protect the rights of ALL Malaysians and to guarentee that the definition of STATE and OFFICIAL remains SEPERATE. The Constitution recognises the importance of Islam to the original inhabitants and enshrined in the Constitution certain responsibilities of the govnt to Islam but IT SET A LIMIT to what these rights are and certainly MAKES NO MENTION OF APOSTACY IN THE CONSTITUTION.

READ the constituion again, it guarentees everybody the right to practice their religion in peace and harmony. The constitution gives us that right, don't flatter yourself in thinking that this is due to your generosity. Don't take "credit" for something that you have no influence over.

I noticed that you previously in an edited post by Jaimu-Jaimu called me "kurang ajar" there by trying to insult not only me but my parents as well. Is this what you resort to when you have no more decent arguments to put forward or is this your definition of what Islam teaches you. I think you need to look at Islam closer, my understanding on Islam is that it places a higher importance on how you treat your neighbours rather then calling people names and insulting them when they disagree with you. And I know that Islam doesn't teach you to intimidate people to try to get your way.

theres nothing wrong about islam.. the problem is all about the stupid mentality of uneducated people.

@fargowin: I didn't make this thread to read such thing. Please refrain from making that kind of comment. This thread is about religious freedom in Malaysia, not about to have religion or not. If you have something against religion, feel free to discuss it in Religion Chat, thank you.

Err... anyway, what the hell happened to this thread. First it was closed (by whose request? why?), and now it's re-opened (by whose request? Why?)

There is nothing wrong with Islam or any other religion, all religions as far as I understand put the highest importance on having good morals, treating your neighbours well and being a good person. Some people though, and you find this is every religion, think that religion is about power and some even go so far as to use it for their own power.

I don't know why it was closed but I requested it reopend becasue I felt Esfandiari made statements that were incorrect and I wanted an opportunity to refute them. I also wanted to challenge the insulting remarks he made about me(which I don't care too much) and my parents(which I care alot for) and challenge his attempts at intimidation, that it would not be tolerated.

It was all okay until the Esfandiary the IDIOT started using insulting words like "U Christian dogs", etc. Kurang ajar punya anjing!

Esfanwhatevaer, nobody here insulted your religion. We are just questioning apostasy laws which has affected rights of certain ppl professing the religion of their choice. U think apostasy law should stay. Thats cool. Explain why. But try to be civil like Protoculture. Thanks.

Doc, I am not so sure if you are confused or trying to confuse me. Both subjects in your story are muslims, either by birth or converted. Of course, the law will have affect on them. If you are not a muslim, then there is nothing to worry about. Look, I am not religeous at all, but as a muslim, practising or not, I will continue to support this law.

And yes, we are not Indonesian, and we have a different mentality about religion and I don't give a squat if they want to change their religion from Islam to Christian or whatever. My Indonesian friend won't have any qualm to eat pork when we were traveling overseas. Try to get any Malaysian Malay to even touch any pork product. It's a Malaysian Malay muslim thing. You won't understand. So stop wasting you time arguing with us as we have one mind set like that. It is not your problem, and don't give me anymore stupid examples. To be honest, those examples look fabricated.

We are the one most moderate muslim communities if you want to compare with muslims from some countries. We are progressive, and don't restrict women's right. We have been tolerating other religions to co-exis for centuries. No Christian or Hindu or Buddhist are being killed daily, just like what is happening in India right now. Be lucky that you ancestors didn't migrate to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. Muslim Malay often quite religious but not fanatic, as long as you don't bother us. My advice is not to play with something you don't really understand. The result could be devastating. It is not your fight. If the Malays want to change the law, let us do it ourselves. We don't need champion from people of other religions. Comprende?

It affects us because its our family, they cannot attend family weddings that are held in church, let alone any religious festivals. They cannot join us in many things that we do. And because they are family their pain is our pain, simply the fact that they face prosecution for wanting to change religions causes them pain, it also causes us pain. You cannot trivialise this, any time you institutionalise religious laws it affects everybody, when you make ANY law the law of the land it WILL affect everybody. To say that these laws, and I'm referring to more then just apostacy laws won't affect anybody else is naive.


So are you calling me a liar???!!!! And it is MY PROBLEM when it affects MY FAMILY. Maybe you don't care as much about your family and what they do and what happens to them but I sure as hell do. And by the way when you use "we" I can guarentee you that not everybody, Muslims not withstanding agrees with the apostacy laws. Eating pork doesn't mean anything, and it doesn't matter weather its a collective Malay Muslim thing or not. Even if only ONE individual wants to change their religion, or eat pork, that should be thier choice, regardless of what the rest of the Muslim community thinks. By the way I have seen Malay Muslims eat pork as well. And I'll tell you something, you don't know me and you don't know my family, so you have no credible opinion as to weather I'm lying and you'ed better come back with something more then a gut feeling before calling me a liar again.



Its interesting that you alwyas say that you "tolerate" us, no wonder there is so much division in Malaysia, and you think you are better "Malaysians" then non Malays, you still defend the NEP and the treatment of non Malays as second class citizens. How can you call yourself a good Malaysian when you talk of division. A good Malaysian is one that looks for a btter Malaysia, not a better Malaysia for Muslims only. A good Malaysian will talk about unity, and wil place Malaysia ahead of their race or religion.

By the was Esfandiari, couldn't intimidate me and you think you can? By suggesting violence if I continue to disagree with you? You really think I'll be afraid

Comprende?

I can't believe the way you guys wrote your opinion here. Awak semua tak malu ke, melakukan cara-cara seperti mengancam dan mengucapkan kata-kata kotor? Perbuatan seperti itu benar-benar tidak berakhlak, tidak menunjukkan bahwa kamu semua orang-orang terpelajar dan beragama. Apa yang awak akan rasa jika awak disebut "anjing muslim"? Marilah kita cuba bertolak-angsur, tolerance is the keyword.

Please behave like civilized people that we are. If you want to give a statement here, go ahead. But please, no swearing and threatening. You won't go through people that way, even if you have the best intention.

To my non-Muslim friends, thank you for not giving in to name-calling. To my Muslim friends, let's show the world that Muslims are not a bunch of hot-headed people who'd resort to violence every time faced with problem, show that Muslims are tolerant bunch of people who could discuss things in civilized way

Okay Doc, now I can see why you are so agitated. I will tell you nicely and slowly this time. I think you are just ignorant about Islamic teaching. Please pay attention and try not to confuse yourself.

1. There is no restriction for any muslim to go to church to attend wedding, or participate in other religion's activity as long as we don't believe in that other religion. I grew in a small town, and there is a big catholic church near my house. They have a nice playground for kids, so I play there every day, and in many occasions, venture inside the church building itself. I went there on Christmas to visit the care taker and get some candies. No problem, and my parents and other muslim parents in my area never say anything. Please tell that to your muslim relatives.

2. Muslim can pray anywhere even in a church, as long as we pray to Allah, not Jesus Buddha or Nana Sahib. After the Turkish captured Constantinople, the first thing the Caliph did was to pray in the Haga Sophia.

3. I didn't call you a liar, but sort of.

4. We are not talking about division or NEP or Malay vs Non Malay here. We are talking about Malaysian Muslim.

5. I didn't threaten you, but I am telling you the consequences of playing with fire. Will it affect you personally? Maybe emotionally, but not physically since you are far away in Australia.

Err...if you read his story real careful, I think you would know that the main problem is not about not being able to go to the church, but more to the fact that they want to change their religion but they can't because of the law.

As far as I understand there has been an edit by Islamic teachers that it is "Un-Islamic" to go to church to attend weddings becasue its a religious festival. The same applies to Christmas, not only that they are not allowed to come to our house to "celebrate" Christmas becasue its considered a religious festival. Besides this is only part of it. The issue is that they don't want to be Muslims. This is causing them distress, so its causing us distress. Particularly my cousin, she wants to be Catholic. She is studying overseas at the moment and is having to decide weather to leave Malaysia permanently, she doesn't want to becasue she very close to her mother and her grandfather, and she has no brothers or sisters. Why should she have to move just to practice the religion opf her choice.

As far as I understand Muslims have been barred from praying in church, I know this is specifically not banned in the Quran, but this is the way religious authorities in Malaysia have chosen to take.

You did call me a liar and you did threathen me, maybe you didn't intend to but you certainly did. And threaths is something non Malays are faced with everytime they speak out against the religious or race inequalities. So, what you have done here intentional or not, happens in the general Malaysian community.

NEP, Malay and Islam all go hand in hand because by and large they are the same people who enjoy the same benefits.

I agree with you. Alot of people, non Muslims very much included, think that religion is about power, they look at all the other aspects of their religion except the most important, and that is how to behave and live your life. All the religions that I have come across teach the same thing, be a good person, worship your god, treat other people well, anything else that contradicts this is secondary. And the best way to spread your religion and keep people in your faith is in the example of the way that you live your life. Show people that you are peaceful and tolerant, that you have values and good morals, this will draw people to your religion AND get them to heaven. People think that if they demonstrate on the streets even violently in the "protection" of their religion, they are doing a good thing. People think that if they kill in the "defense" of their religion, its a good thing, some are even promised virgins in heaven, how ridiculous is all this. To me, the only thing that matters in religion is in how you live your life and your relationship with your God. Violence and the threat of it, is all about show and politics, it does nothing to get you to heaven. When you die you will be the only one there standing in judgment. My advice to those who try to "save" other people, worry about your own soul first. The really sad thing is that it is often so called "holy people" who condone these violent actions, and its all for their own power either political or their standing in the community. Remember, no Muslims and Muftis would be without influence and without a job, no Christians and Priests/Ministers also have no influence and no job. How much like god does it make you feel when you can control peoples lives so much, even convincing them that killing other people is a good thing. Quite intoxicating isn’t it, would you give up that power?