The things you said above about religion are quite scary, but I can see some truth in them. So are you saying that what's going on in Malaysia nowadays is because some people don't want to give up their power?

I believe very strongly in the basic teachings of religion. I believe in the consept of religion and I believe that religion is good. But I think as practitioners of religions we need to seperate what the Quran/Bible teaches vs what other people tell us what religion is about. Sure both religions teach to defend their religion to the death but, which religion really is under threat of extinction. Where in the world can either religion not be practiced reasonably freely. I believe very strongly that above everything else religion teaches us to be good people, and nothing comes over this including "defending" your religion. Religion teaches us to treat other people well, regardless of their religion. To live peacefully beside all our neighbours. Why then if all religions teach this, can't we as practitioners of religion live it? During the crusades, Bishops were at the front of the line encouraging the Christians to kill and rape. Today Muftis are justifying killing yourself and other innocent people in the name of Allah. This is all wrong. I've heard Christian Ministers refer to Islam as a bad religion that it encourages killing and terrorism. Australia's Mufti's call Australians unholy people becasue we do not believe in Islam and then calls for an Islamic state as prescribed in the Quran justifying the use of violence to achieve this. What they should be encouraging is peace tolerance and unity.

In Malaysia politics is racially aligned, since Malays are Muslims, the more Malays there are and the therefore the more Muslims there are the more power the party has.

Wow, doctor. Quite enlightening. =)

Islam is the way of life. It teaches you everything, economy, politics, laws, rules and guidelines toward society, governing, defend, science, astronomy, man creation, heritage etc. Her followers must follow whatever outlined by Islam and no compromise to a certain degree. The rules have symbiosis effects to each other. If you change any of the rules or laws outlined in the teachings, it will collapse. So either you strictly follow you don't. Nothing in the middle. And 5 principal basic outlines, wajid (must do and get reward and don't do get reward), sunnat (do get rewards and don't do don't get anything), halal (can do), haram (cannot do), makhruh (better not to do but if you do its OK) and harus (do is OK dont do is OK).
So, before you convert to Islam, please think a thousand times. Nobody will force you to be a muslim. But if you did, obey and respect the religion. You will have to follow the rules i.e. 100% commitment. Islam is not to satisfy individual but to all human being to all muslim specifically.

In Islam also, she teaches you 2 things i.e. Fardu Ain and Fardu Kifayah. The former is about personal/individual commitment toward Allah which is called 5 pillars of Rukun Islam i.e. Shahadah, praying, zakat (taxation), fasting and visit Kaabah for those can afford (hajj). Whereby, Fardu Kiffayah is something other than Fardu Ain which are for everybody's benefits especially Muslims. It has to be done at least one person in every society for the benefit of everybody. So, if nobody took up the role, all people in the society will have to answer to Allah in the "Day After". Example, be a bus driver, at least one person must become a bus driver so that he can fetch people to works, praying etc. All aspects in life....

So what Malaysian government is doing is that, as the government/ruler, it has the Fardu Kifayah duty to perform. And Malays are defending the status quo. Remember, fardu kifayyah is not only for muslim but for everybody. Glad that the goverment at least for the time being remembers its main duty toward Islam, the religion of the majority populations of Malaysia.

Sorry, if I would say my different opinion in Indonesia. I don't see any Fardu Kifayyah thingy by the government and many of you muslim here. Because Indonesians are so obsessed with democracy i.e. man created "new religion". This is why many of you say that religion is up to individual and shall not be forced. Yes I would agree for Fardu Ain but not for Fardu Kifayyah. Islam is not to satisfy individual need but for whole people (including non muslim). Non muslim not require to satisfy Islam. You and your gods but muslims with Allah.

As far as I understand there has been an edit by Islamic teachers that it is "Un-Islamic" to go to church to attend weddings becasue its a religious festival. The same applies to Christmas, not only that they are not allowed to come to our house to "celebrate" Christmas becasue its considered a religious festival.

THERE IS NO HIERARCHY IN ISLAM UNLIKE CATHOLIC OR SHIITE MUSLIM (A DEVIATE SECT OF ISLAM). MUFTI OR IMAM DON'T HAVE POWER. THE FATWAS ISSUED BY THEM ARE JUST ADVICE, NOT RELIGIOUS ORDERS.



Besides this is only part of it. The issue is that they don't want to be Muslims. This is causing them distress, so its causing us distress. Particularly my cousin, she wants to be Catholic. She is studying overseas at the moment and is having to decide weather to leave Malaysia permanently, she doesn't want to becasue she very close to her mother and her grandfather, and she has no brothers or sisters. Why should she have to move just to practice the religion opf her choice.

LET THEM MAKE THEIR OWN DECISION.


As far as I understand Muslims have been barred from praying in church, I know this is specifically not banned in the Quran, but this is the way religious authorities in Malaysia have chosen to take.

WHEN I SAID PRAYING IN CHURCH, I MEANT PRAYING TO ALLAH THE MUSLIM WAY, NOT CHRISTIAN WAY. MUSLIM CAN PRAY ANYWHERE, AS LONG AS THE PLACE IS CLEAN.


You did call me a liar and you did threathen me, maybe you didn't intend to but you certainly did. And threaths is something non Malays are faced with everytime they speak out against the religious or race inequalities. So, what you have done here intentional or not, happens in the general Malaysian community.

NEP, Malay and Islam all go hand in hand because by and large they are the same people who enjoy the same benefits.


YOU ARE STILL CONFUSED.

I respect your opinions, but according to Christianity, we must also look after each other religious beliefs so therefore, Christians also cannot change religions. It is the greatest sin to know God and then to reject him.

The status quo in Malaysia is to allow the conversion away from Islam. When Malaysia was formed as a federation, this was the status quo.

In todays world, we the people of different religions must learn to live side by side peacefully, this is afterall from my understanding, also the most important teachings of Islam. Choose to believe that your religion is the one true religion, but accept that all religions need to be treated equally.

Its the same thing, weather you are "told" or "encouraged" to do something, Muslims atill have been "encouraged" not to go to church. The same can be said for headscarves, Malay women have been "encouraged" to wear headscarves. It doesn't say in the Quran that you have to wear headscarves but I know of Malay women who have been ccused of not being good Muslims and being asked why they don't want to go to heaven just becasue they don't wear headscarves. the point still remains that it has been decided that it is wrong to attend another religions festivals, weather its merely "encouraged" or not is irrelevent.


Yes and her decision is that she wants to convert.


What am I confused about, that you called me a liar? You did this. That you threathened me? You certainly did this. The fact that non Malays are often threathened when they speak out against the "favouritism" of Islam or the NEP? This happens all the time.


99.99% of Malays are Muslim who enjoy the benefits of the NEP, so why do they not go hand in hand.

Tell me what am I confused about? You keep saying I'm confused but you have yet to tell me why. By the way, putting a different colour and using capitals do not make a point.

Thanks doc. The magic words are respect each other religions.
The true teaching in Islam is always to promote good faith, respect each other regardless their religions. In fact it is a duty for a muslim to protect his non muslim neighbors as long as the said neighbors respect him (under fardu kifayyah). All muslims in the society will get sins if they simply refuse to do so.

I agree that Malay as a people arre quite religious, but not fanatic. Don't you think we Malays are going down the path of the slippery slope? By not allowing non-Malays to voice their concerns and opinion, which is done in a collected and civil manner, we are closing the doors for discourse even amongst ourselves. There has always been a tradition of muzakarah in Islam, and these should be encouraged. Your post reeks of arrogance, 1+1, "be lucky that your ancestors didn't migrate to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia?" Why the need for this masked contempt?

True. Islam is being used now to mantain Malay power. Even the call to build a mosque for the Chinese Muslim converts was turned down by the local authorities recently. What further proof is needed? UnIslamic? You betcha.


Did the Quran not say that it made us into various races so that we could learn from each other? It was an exam question and one of the ayat hafalan for my Agama paper during SPM. But anyway, how blessed is Malaysia in this respect? It's true even in the bigger regional setting, with our Catholic Pinoy and Buddhist Thai brothers to the north.

For topic starter Mr Bhaskara
In keeping with the regional ASEAN theme (as usual ) you're absolutely right Bhas in that Malaysian Muslims are generally more 'religious' than in Indonesia. The sultanates dotting the Malay peninsula dates earlier than the ones on Java. The closest equivalent I gather would be the ones on Sumatera, Acheh being a prime example. And you can see how conservative Acheh is compared to the other provinces. The first Muslim Malay state on the peninsula, Malacca itself used Islamic traditions as the basis for its law, cannonised in the Hukum Kanun Melaka. It received patronage from the rich Indian Muslims and Arab. It received protection from Ming China via the Muslim eunuch Cheng Ho. There is a collective memory in all Malay Malaysians that this glorious age was cut short by the Christian West, under the guise of the Portuguese who really did have as its reason for expansion, Gold, God and Country. Islam was always a political force right from the very begiining of the Malay nation-states. Brunei which inherited many Muslim traditions of the Malacca sultanate, is today arquably the most Muslim of all the Malay states. It's official state ideology is that of a Malay Muslim Sultanate. Despite being a British protectorate until 1984, it has always remained true to its traditions.

Imagine Indonesia with a population of about 200 million Indonesian Chinese, many of whom do not speak Bahasa Indonesia. Also imagine all the complications that arises with this situation. This was the equivalent scenario in Malaysia in the early 20th century. Again Islam was a natural rallying point in creating a sense of solidarity amongst the 'Malays', who actually are of mixed Malay, Minang, Bugis, Javanese, Siamese etc ancestry. The situation is such that to become a Muslim meant to become a Malay. I know that this idea makes no sense whatsoever in Indonesia, but it makes perfect sense in Malaysia.

Indonesia has the Pancasila which inspired our Rukunegara. Yet preceding even the Rukunegara, Islam was accorded the status of official religion. Yet another difference in the role of Islam between Indonesia and Malaysia.

As Muslims, I think it's fair to say that there is a worldwide return to religiousity amongst the ummah worldwide. It's not uncommon at all in the UK to see African Muslim women wearing the hijab nowadays. This almost never happened 20 years ago. I've only been to Bali and not Jakarta, but I will hazard a guess that more women there wear the hijab today than existed even 10 years ago. Malaysia had seen this trend of Islamic revitalisation start as early as the 80s. The syariah court has concurrently spread its reach and power gradually since then. And the Lina Joy was a landmark case that pitted the civil court against the syariah court.

I feel it is next to impossible for the civil court to overturn the apostasy ruling by the syariah court, as apostasy is the one 'major sin' for Muslims that preceeds all others. Other rulings by the syariah court which is unjust could and should be challenged.

why does these people question about our decision? let the malay choose what they want.. period

But you see this is a fallacy, anytime you make any laws enforcible it always affects everyone. Malays and non Malays do not live in their own little cocoon nicely seperated from each other. I've already given 2 examples of how it has affected my family

you meant letting malay to make any law that favourable to them?

hey maldini....any kids yet?

Remember the old song...hotel california....."you can check in anytime you like, but you can never leave"....dats somewhat malays and islam is in malaysia

well thts sucks isnt it? cuz the majority always win no matter how stupid the law is.. if everyone said yes who will listen if u say no..

hi ricochet.... not yet.. still planning. my wife wan to enjoy 2 persons life first.
how are u man?

definately man.... to think that islam teach u guys to be fair to all.... but seems like it just doesn't apply in msia ya?

Well, you're absolutely correct. Just like UMNO and PAS, no matter how suck the UMNO is, majority still prefer UMNO than PAS.

Any law/rules is not singly made by Malay. It is by the parliament/cabinets which is controlled by the ruling BN that comprises of Malay and non Malay, muslims and non muslims. But if malays are as bad as what u're thinking, why don't Malay just amend the constitution to abolish any other religion in Malaysia except Islam and force the syariaah law to become the premier law in Malaysia? The answer is they're not gonna do it sampai kucing bertanduk pun because malay do recognize the existence of multi minority ethnics and religions. In fact, Malays had long time accepted their neighbors are also non malays and non muslims and willing to share their lives together.

I would say perhaps malays are the most tolerable race in the world. Sharing everything

You can dispute on anything that malays have including NEP, bumiputra status etc. But for their religion, no compromise.

Thats correct but it doesn't mean that the minority should just accept it and besides not all the Malays feel the same way, there are moderates within the Malay community.

But the Cabinet and parliament are dominated by UMNO which is as you know Malay.

The comments that you make that I dispute are
1) You seem to suggest that non Malays should be greatful with what the Malays allow them to have in Malaysia. And this is one of the biggest issues to non Malays, that they should be greatful when they are treated as second class citizens. Besides its not that easy to change the constitution, if its like most other countries, you need 2/3s majority which UMNO does not have.
2) The Interfaith Commision was set up to bring open dialog and understanding between religions, yet it was the Malays who opposed it and eventually pulled out, following (violent)demonstrations.
3) You say that we can dispute everything but religion, this is also not true, non Malays still cannot bring up the NEP or discuss it. Remember a few months ago a non Malay wanted to discuss the NEP in parliament, he was shouted down accused of trying to destabalise the country and forced to apologise. Furthermore, religion is just as important to non Malays as it is to Malays. And to have decisions made that affect non Muslims without prior consultation and then told we just have to accept it, that really is going too far. And you cannot argue that the laws only affect Muslims, any law that is made enforcible by the state affects everyone.