Well said, swingdctor. What an arrogant thing to say such thing as a Malay must be a Muslim. But let him be. With that kind of attitude, people will surely notice the failure of the rule and there will be a chance in no time

Ethnic Malay in Malaysia HAS TO BE MUSLIM, as mentioned in Constitution. If they change their religion, then expect their rights as Bumiputra taken away .... & of course, living under condemnation of Malay society.

Ever wonder why not so many cases of Muslim Malay apostasy ever been publicly recorded? Because Malay apostates (insignificant as it is) would rather choose to pack 'em bags & migrate elsewhere.

In Malaysia, Malay ethnicity changes when one renounces Islam. As simple as A, B & C.

Its not arrogant, its a FACT. Now, how do I drummed this again in your thick skull .... IN MALAYSIA, ISLAM & MALAY IS INSEPARABLE.

Get that. Now, if you wanna talk about ethnic Malay in SG, Thailand, Philippines or Indonesia, that's a different story altogether.

How about drum it to your own demented mind that there is a thing called human rights, and every human being has the right to choose his/her own religion by international law

Is there a workaround to this? What defines Malay in Malaysia? There is no pure ethnic malay except maybe in Sumatra. The so-called malay in Malaysia may consist of many ethnics such as bugis, minangkabau, java, kelantanese, mixtures from mixed-mariage etc. If you call yourself Bugis instead of Malay, does that subject you to the same rule that says Malay is Muslim? Before they add religion in NRIC for muslim, the workaround is to change your name and none able to tell if you're muslim or not. That is how Chinese took advantage of Bumiputra privilages by converting to Islam and change their name to muslim name and became bumi in an instant. The govn put a stop to it by requiring Chinese convert to retain their surname. New workaround is for Chinese men living up north is to change name to siamese name, marry a Siamese women and their kids enjoy bumi status. Cool.

Instead of trying to get around it, wouldn't it be better if people who feel that this kind of situation is not right do something to make a change? C'mon, speak up! I'm sure most modern Malaysian won't agree with this kind of repression.

lol this got nothing to do with human rights.. malays r not suppressed by such law they believe the govt is doing the right thing.. if they feel like converting to other religion.. sure, just get the F out of malaysia..

Yes. But not necessarily most Malays. The situation is as such because the majority of Malays think like Protoculture. I dont think the non-Muslim population can do much with this situation. We will support when there is any lawsuits like Lina Joy. Other than that the majority conservative Muslim population and government wont listen to us. Nor will it be likely we speak up. Hence, i think it is ultimately up to the moderate Malays themselves to initiate and speak up. Another problem is that the number of Malays who wish to leave the religion seems very small and "negligible" to warrant a change.

U can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_rel...dom_in_Malaysia

can u please state some real facts before posting some baseless info..

U just contradicted yourself. u say Malays are not suppressed. Then u say they can GTFO of Malaysia.

I think the freedom to choose and practice your religion of choice is one of the fundamental human rights.

What baseless info? How old are you BTW? It's a well known practice in the 70s and 80s where I came from. As for marrying ethnic siamese for bumi status, I got to know this from my dad just a couple of year back. He has lots of chinese, malay and siamese friends as he is into direct selling. If it does not happen anywhere else, at least in Kelantan it is.

how can it be called repression or suppression if the action was tally with the views of the whole muslim malay community?

i ddnt ask for tht answer.. i was quoting this:

Since when the whole muslim malay community appointed you as their spokeperson? You do not represent the whole community but just yourself and your thinking that it is what the whole muslim malay community want. Did you ask every single one of them? Would they tell you this is what they want. We know Lina Joy do not want this. There are bound to be others. Mufti of Perak said there are something like 200,000 of malay muslims waiting to leave. Does that also make them a community that want? I do not know how true is the number, giving his reputation, it does not matter. What matter is every individual is guaranteed by the constitution the right to his/her religion of choice.

why does the govt formed the law at the first place? isit because of the support by the malay communities? was islam hadhari is actually a political agenda to gain support from the muslim malay? does PAS (Islamist political party) supremacy means anything to you?
can u actually give relevance reference to your claims of 200,000?? i never heard such news on tht..
how old are you anyway?

Demented, hardly. Realist, yes.

Harped on it all you want, it won't change a jack.

Human rights is subjective, up to the whims of whomever that may've agenda behind it. Some people call walking nude down the street or fornicating like rabbits is a fundamental rights, yet most nations forbid such rights.

So, just accept the darn fact .... & shut up. You've nothing to gain in changing Muslim Malay status quo within Malaysian Constitution.

Lived with it, bub ....

"Malaysian citizen who professes to be a Muslim, habitually speaks the Malay language, adheres to Malay customs"

For all purposes, other sub-Malay ethnics in Malaysia like Bugis, Jawa (Javanese), Minangkabau, Boyan, Mandailing, Mamak Muslim are considered Malay.

Malaysian Siamese in state of Kedah, Perlis, Kelantan & Perak are recognised as semi-bumiputra, & reserved the same rights as Bumiputras. Yes, some Chinese seen it is beneficial to marry with local Siamese for the coveted Bumi rights for their kids. Now that is good thinking on their part.

The same goes for Chinese in East Malaysia who intermarried with local Ibans, Bidayuhs, Orang Ulus so that their kids is recognised as semi-Bumi status. Heck in Sabah, Sino Kadazan is considered full-fledged Bumiputra, & can join UMNO there.

That number had been proved grossly false on all accounts. The Mufti was misinformed .... even the Perlis Mufti refutes that number.

For all purposes, number of Muslim apostates mostly includes new non-Malay Muslim converts that wants to return back to their original faiths. Frankly speaking, Religious Authorities don't givva a jack at all for the newly converted non Malay Muslims to change back to their otiginal religions, as such cases are often swept under the rug. As for Muslim-Malay apostasy .... well, our dearest Religious Authorities have kept up their surveillance.

I agree that Muslim and Malays was inseparable. As history thingies, this is true in Malaysia as long as I live, and if your ask non-Muslim in Malaysia if any of them want to convert to Islam, their community will prejudicially said that this people want to “masuk Melayu�.
For me it good thing in Malaysia that Malay sub-group unite under one group as do the Chinese. Of course the Chinese also contain many subgroup and dialect and most of them agree one thing that there is Han Chinese. So no need to divide and conquer anymore as such been done by our former colonial and I think most of Malays sub-group agree to unite under one banner which is Malays.

I think this is such bull$hit. I know you live in Kelantan, but I didn’t realize how short your memory in remembering thing. Did Malay people of Kelantan ever called themselves as Kelantanese ethnic when they talked to you??? Such a crap coming out of you. The Malay people of Kelantan always called themselves as Melayu when been asked by non-Malay, and Kelantan was just a state in Malaysia, and back then when talking among each other all of people in Malaysia always refer themselves from specific places as that easier to know the details about them.
And one more, if you have your fact right, ethnic Malay was the group that speak Malays. That fact.


I think that too. Maybe Kimyee dude just don't understand what Mufti Perak really means ???

Chinese convert used to not retaining their surname after conversion back then but later newer convert retains their surname. Maybe there is no law or rule set by govn on this. Okay I take back my statement for now.

How could Mamak Muslim considered as Malay? They are Indian. Same goes to Arabs or Persians migrants like Syed so and so. How could you consider them as Malay when they are not?

My earlier question on what defines Malay is referring to ethnics and not what in the constitution. When the constitution mentioned Malay, what is the scope of ethnics involved in Malaysian context? If this is not well defined, then the govn can simply add or remove any ethnics as they like.

Hahaha, I know, so funny right? These people actually create an illusion in their minds, so they really believe that all Malay Malaysians want this. And when they are faced with the number of people waiting to declare their apostasy, they denied it by saying it's a mistake by the state. It's kind of funny and sad at the same time.

Gee, kimyee, haven't you learned anything from these status-quo people? It's the law! You can't fight that, if you are not satisfied, just get the fu-k out of Malaysia

I know. It is pointless to debate with some of them. Some Malay are game for good discussion and not just say if you do not like it, keluar or something to that effect. I also know that the supreme law of Malaysia is the constitution. If anyone do not like it, they can also keluar.

Why should I give a damn whether Malays can choose their own religion? I don't. But as a human being, I felt justice have not been served if another human being is not allowed to convert to the religion of their choice.

That means you care, kimyee, and that's a good thing. I feel the same way too. Islam has already got a bad name in the international word because of the terrorism, it doesn't need this kind of attitude to add up to its already tainted image. I hope in the near future Malaysia would have their religious freedom.

Because simply:

"Malaysian citizen who professes to be a Muslim, habitually speaks the Malay language, adheres to Malay customs"

In case you may forget, Tun Dr. Mahathir Muhammad is of Muslim Mamak lineage, his dad is a Muslim Malabari Indian, while his mom a Malay.

One more thing, our Minister od Foreign Affairs, Syed Hamid Albar is of Yemeni Arab-Malay lineage, & he is considered a Malay.

Ohhh, the founding father of UMNO, Datuk Onn Jaafar, is of Turkish-Malay lineage.

One more thing, Muslim Mamak & Muslim Arab-Malay descendants in Malaysia are already assimilated into Malay culture.

Remember, Islam & Malay in Malaysia is inseparable. It is a single identity.

That's why there's the phrase, "Masuk Islam = Masuk Melayu".

Its cultural thing is Malaysia.

OK, Malay as an ethnic root, to my knowledge, refers to native Malays in South Thailand, & Peninsular Malaysian states. This also includes Sarawak Malays.

Ethnic Malays also identified in Indonesian Riau Lingga territories, several parts of Sumatra, & Kalimantan Malays.

As for 'rumpun Melayu' or Malay race specifically refers to Austronesian group of people that inhabit South East Asia, in what we called Malay Archipelago that include from Vietnam & Kemboja (Malay Champa) to South Thai & Peninsular Malaysia, Borneo, Indonesian isles & Philippines.

But as you already knows, Malay in context of Malaysia is different, lumping all sub-race Malay sub-groups into one single Muslim-Malay identity.

So we can talk about Christian-Malayo people of Philippines, or Hindu-Malay people of Bali, but in Malaysia, Muslim-Malay only.

Kimyee, that is your personal opinion. But by being Malaysian, you should also know that the issue of Islam & Malay are sensitive.

Both racial & religious elements are perfect to be misused by others, such an act can be very dangerous as Muslim Malay guarded the status quo very closely. Look at what happen in Bosnia, where religion issue & etnic matters erupted causing ethnic cleansing by Christian Orthodox Serbs against Muslim Slavs (Bosniaks) & Catholic Croats.

The Constitution is sacred. The founding fathers of Malaysia knew the perils & challenges that lie ahead of them. As such, defer to Constitution.

Why harp on the matter? Get on with your lives ... if you feel Malaysia is not for you, then feel free to migrate for whatever reasons. Even Muslim-Malays migrated to other nations in search of better economic opportunity.

Yes, there's no such law required for Chinese converts to retain their surname.

Its just that the current Chinese converts prefer to retain their familial name alongside their Muslim name .. like Hussein Ho or Ahmad Liew. They want to maintain the Chinese identity, which is good for them. Even Muslim Chinese (Hui) in China PRC used Sinicized names, & retain a distinct Muslim Chinese culture that differs from Muslim Malay culture.

And Betong, don't be harsh on Kimyee. Atleast he shows civility & honest to goodness regarding his posts.

Guys, you need to understand, the Constitution does not say that all Malays have to be Muslim.

The constitution provides for special privelidges for Malays and therefore there has to be a legal definition of "Malay" in the constitution, otherwise any Tom, d!ck and Harry can call themselves Malay and be entitiled to the special privelidges guarenteed only to Malay Malaysians. So the constitution defines Malay as being

"Malaysian citizen who professes to be a Muslim, habitually speaks the Malay language, adheres to Malay customs"

This is only a definition for legal purposes of what a Malay person is recognised under the constitution. It does not say that Malays have to be Muslim, all it says is that for a Malay to enjoy the special privelidges guarenteed under the constitution, they have to be Muslim. So if a Malay person rejected Islam, they no longer could enjoy these privedliges.

A persons ethnicity is not determined by their religion or what the constitutions says, the constitution cannot change who your parents are or where your genes came from.

Religion and race are both sensitive topics in Malaysia, and those people who want to protect the status quo regardless on the effect it has on people oppressed by the current situation always argue that these topics are sensitive so we'e better not talk about them. To me this is crap, becasue its sensitive all the more it should be discussed.

Many here argue that Islamic Laws don't effect non Muslims in Malaysia, this is also crap, when Islamic Laws take precedence over the laws of the land and basic human rights, they involve everyone. Because only Islamic Laws apply in Malaysia, only the rights of Muslims and Islam is protected. I'll give you a scenario....

A Malay Muslim goes overseas to study, meets a nice non Muslim girl, they decide to get married and have kids, kids are not Muslim. The marriage starts to hit the rocks, he comes back to Malaysia and insists on keeping the kids, may even give the children Muslim names. What rights has the mother got as a non Muslim, in keeping her children. Would she have less rights over her children as a Mulsim mother would have?

When laws of ANY religion become civil laws, it will affect everyone, and it invariably discriminates against those not practicing that religion.

I think most Malays would agree with fadlee's standing.

Even if you are right, those Malays who want to declare apostasy are Malays too, and they think of Malaysia as home too. They have the right to stay in Malaysia both as Malaysians and Malays.

^If they love their Malays community, they will not convert since Malays and Islam is separateable. So because of that they cannot be Malay anymore, easy as that. They are just too selfish with influance from "you know who".

C'mon Betong. I will have to repeat my example: how would you feel if a Jew in Israel wanted to convert to Islam but the government won't let him? Why should he leave his home and deny his identity and heritage? He has every right to live in the country just as his countrymen.

Or change "Israel" to "Philippines. Or just imagine if the situation was reversed, that Malaysia was a Christian-dominated country, and there was this one man from Wilayah Betong who wanted to convert to Islam but was not allowed by the government. How would you feel about that?

Sedang Kan Sesama Islam Kurang Bersatu ini kan pulak kalau ada Puak Kristian Lagi Huru Hara Malaysia...

^I think it doesn't matter if that poor Jews can't convert to Islam since I can't be pity to all the people in the world. But I do feel he will leave Israel since we all know that he will been driscriminated when he choose to stay. And about Malays heritege all their heriteges already heavily embedded with Islams value and there is no chance for us to separate Malay and Islam anymore.
I feel that if I been force to leave Betong just because they hate me become Muslims, I will leave. I leave just because I love my people and don't want them become ununited.

What's the point of being a non-Muslim Malay with no rights? Even Christian / animist indigenous tribes of Sabah & Sarawak enjoy the Bumiputra rights ... then hey, suddenly non-Muslim Malays may want to claim the same priviledges too .. no way in hell baby!

Put all rhetorics aside, the reality in Malaysia, a Malay by Constitution MUST BE MUSLIM. As simple as that.

Those few non Muslim Malay has long accepted the fact & moved on with their lives elsewhere outside Malaysia. That's fine by us Muslim Malays here.

Who givva a fart? In Malaysia, it apparently does. Harp on the matter till cows fly, it still ain't gonna do a jack in Malaysia.

Not bullcrap, bub.

Remember Natrah case during 1950s Singapore, when a young Dutch girl who converted to Islam under her Malay guardian care, later under court orders ordered her to be returned to her Christian Dutch parents ... the Malays practically went to streets to protest on her behalf. Malays bled on that day after fierce rioting to defend the girl's right to remain Muslim.

Yes, religious issues are damn sensitive. Look at India, just because of different religion, but of same race, they still fight & bickers that led to bloody riots & clashes.

It ain't pretty sight, so yes, in multicultural-multireligious Malaysia, sensitive issues must not be raised & used as leverage.

Since when Islamic Law in Malaysia affects non-Muslims in Malaysia (apart from Malay apostates & deviant Muslim followers)?

I've yet to see even a non-Muslim being charged in Sharia Court for the 'close-proximity' offence .... where amorous Muslims non-married couples found themselves in such scenario ...

Did any non-Muslims being charged in Sharia Court for not fasting in Ramadhan or imbibing alcohol & for indulging in excessive gambling?

Oppppppssssssssssss .................. NOPE!

Heck no! Islam do not recognised such marriages .... so the guy loses big time. When they decide to get married, they in all probability get married through civil union, not Islamic one. Islam do not recognised such marriages, where a non Muslim, in order to marry a Muslim spouse, MUST CONVERT TO ISLAM & THE MARRIAGE IS CONDUCTED ACCORDIC TO ISLAMIC TRADITION.

In this case, the mom's wins ..... big time, as the dad seems to forget the above requiorement for his marriage to be recognised as legal within Sharia.

Last time I checked, there's both Civil & Sharia Laws working in tandem in Malaysia.

Depends ... it all depends on the Constitution of the alternate Christianised Malaysia. If it says Islamic conversion is not allowed, thus say the law of the land.

Ethnically non-Muslim Malays, & thus will not be recognised as Malays in Malaysia, thanks to the Constitution. As such, they may stay in Malaysia, with ZERO previlidges as awarded to Muslim Malays & Non-Muslim indigenous natives.

Of course, if they start harping about getting the same previlidges, we will make sure they are not getting it! They discarded their Bumiputra's rights after renouncing Islam.

NO NO NO, according to the Constitution an ethnic Malay doesn't have to Muslim. The definition given is so that to qualify for the benefits for Malays under the constitution, you must be Muslim. But is a person CHOOSES to forgo those benefits, they can change religions.

A non Muslim Malay WILL have the same rights as any other Malaysian, they just won't have the same privilidges protected for muslim malays under the constitution. In theory all the Bumiputera benefits given by the Govnt but not isolated by the Constitution, should not be affected.

Why are you so afraid of Mulsims being allowed to convert? Are you affraid that many will give up Islam, thereby "suggesting" that Islam is not so great?

The Natrah case has NOTHING to do with religion but a case of the rights of adopted parents over biological parents. If you think that she should remain with her adopted parents simply so she can remain a Muslim then this is the perfect example of religious laws affecting non Muslims. Who she remains with should have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with her welfare.

If people riot when sensitive issues are discussed why doesn't the govnt crack down on the rioters. There are laws prohibiting rioting. In fact in Malaysia there are even laws against public gatherings let alone rioting. The Malaysian govnt happily uses the ISA against newpapers but refuses to use the same laws against rioters. Why????? The only sensitive issues that cannot be discussed invole Malays, why??? Indian temples can get destroyed without repercussions but "sensitive" issues like the effects of Sharia law on non Malayss cannot be discussed. Pure crap.

Yes but Sharia Laws take precedence over Civil Laws.

Even so if she converts to Islam in another countryand then decides to reject it does she lose all rights to her children?

One example Jacqueline Gillespie.