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Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Asian Culture > Korean Chat > Korean Serious Talk
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bangaroo
QUOTE(meiyou @ Nov 11 2007, 06:06 PM) *
The same old audio tape of anti-China propaganda just keeps going, going, and going. What an useless and brainless thread! laugh.gif

An interesting blog: http://silkstreet.wordpress.com/2007/10/24...to-split-china/

Apparently South Koreans have exterior motives to see China being fragmented. Just so they can steal Chinese territory. I wonder why there are several South Korean radicals spewing lies about China on this board. icon_rolleyes.gif


And what about some stupid Chinese, and When did the Korean wanting China to be fragmented, so do you honestly believe Korea wanting to steal some of polluted Chinese territory? I think you are either very stupid or twisted or even just plain lier trying to demonize Korean. What I see it, it's always you see Korean as some kind of aggressor, and yet history tell us IT'S CHINA always have been the biggest Aggressor in Asia.
Captain Corea
QUOTE(Aerain @ Nov 11 2007, 07:31 PM) *
Why do you have to take word for word everything he says?


Why would I not?

How should I take his posts? Should I delve for some hidden meaning? Should I guess at to what he "really" means? Should I suppose that he means what I think he does?

If so, why both typing anything? Why not just use emotes for this whole forum and we can go around guessing what each other means.

Words have meaning - we use them because they mean something. If they are used incorrectly or in an odd place, why would someone not question it and ask... 'do you really mean _____?'

Aerian, how would you prefer me to post? Do you have some specific course of action that you'd like me to follow? Is there some way I could make you happy? Would you feel better about reading my posts if I posted exactly how you wanted me to?
Aerain
He obviously didn't mean sovereign as in self-governing, but he probably gave it a laxer meaning as in not dependent and non-docile to external politics.
meiyou
QUOTE(bangaroo @ Nov 11 2007, 07:55 PM) *
And what about some stupid Chinese, and When did the Korean wanting China to be fragmented, so do you honestly believe Korea wanting to steal some of polluted Chinese territory? I think you are either very stupid or twisted or even just plain lier trying to demonize Korean. What I see it, it's always you see Korean as some kind of aggressor, and yet history tell us IT'S CHINA always have been the biggest Aggressor in Asia.


that's why I made that thread to confirm the existence of the book. Talktohand.gif

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=139302

SantaKlaws
QUOTE(SejongTheGreat @ Nov 12 2007, 09:19 AM) *
We all know Korea's views towards Chinese are skewed. Well I know that you favor America than anything else so you are programmed to say those things.
You got me there. I'm a realist not some stupid $hit who needs to side with someone who are really oppressed. Chinese needs to be stopped along with America however.
Korea only favors America and nothing else. Even emulating American culture. To me that's not a sovereign nation.


Well, your posts would make a whole lot of sense if you lived in some different parallel universe where Korea was annexed by the United States, under oppressive American rule. But in my world, Korea is a sovereign and independent nation-state with a full-fledged democracy.

With regards to Korea "emulating" American culture - I think I've said this too many times already - modern Korean culture is mainly based on the European/Japanese tradition, not the Anglo-American tradition. Hence, Korea has more social similarities to European societies than those of Anglo-American societies, although today European/Japanese influence is fleeting as Anglo-American influence is rising.
Captain Corea
QUOTE(Aerain @ Nov 11 2007, 08:10 PM) *
He obviously didn't mean sovereign as in self-governing, but he probably gave it a laxer meaning as in not dependent and non-docile to external politics.


I'm slightly confused by your post as well...

1. If he meant something "laxer", why didn't he chose another word? I was under the impression that he is a native speaker living in the US - sorry if I am wrong.

2. What exactly is "not dependent to external politics" and "non-docile to external politics"? Are you trying to say that Korea is passive towards outside influence? That outside political forces change Korean society and that Koreans either accept it or have no power to stop it?

Sorry Aerain, but your post didn't help clear matters up for me at all - thanks for trying though. (I'm still waiting for you to tell me how to post though)


As for Korea being influenced by outside powers, well yeah, that's what being part of he global economy/community is all about. I'd be shocked if someone could name one country on this planet that is not affected by external forces.


QUOTE(SejongTheGreat @ Nov 11 2007, 02:28 PM) *
Last time I checked American soldiers are in Korea occupying.


When was that? When was the last time you checked?? Honestly, when was the last time you were able to converse with the Korean government and ask them if they've asked the US forces to leave?

I'm pretty sure that they have not. Even this current administration has yet to request them to leave.

If they are welcome, then they are not occupying. If they are asked to leave and refuse, then they are an occupying force.

They have not been asked to leave.
meiyou
South Korea of course is a sovereign country. But me think she is an abnormal sovereign country.
Protoculture
QUOTE
north korea is not enemy
north korea is our brother
s korean think

north korea is a part of korea


Tell that to the Kim Jong Il regime whose missiles & artillery rounds ready to flatten Seoul from the DMZ lines.
Protoculture
QUOTE
In 2020, I'd predict:

1) China is the main enemy


- Economically, yes. Militarilly, they've the Northies as cannon fodders.

QUOTE
2) North Korea will have fallen behind so much that it is nearly irrelevant, in fact may even be an ally or unified


- The Northies will be there, menacing as always, thanks to China PRC.

QUOTE
3) Japan may be a best friend, or fierce rival


- Both, especially Japan in no hurry to apologised fro WWII transgressions.

QUOTE
4) Russia may be an ally depending on how it perceives China. If it sees China as friendly, then Russia may be hostile to South Korea.


- They're already friendly with China. Russian is a main partner in China's sponsored military alliance (ala NATO) in SCO - Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, allied with many former Soviet republics with Iran as an observer.
Russia to keep its economic interest though, will become neutral in regards to South Korea, but ol' age animosities the Ruskies will reserved to the Japanese.

QUOTE
5) South Korea will have cold relations with the USA.


- Hardly. South Korea needs American military power much like Japan ecause of China PRCs patronage over North Korea.


Protoculture
QUOTE
China main enemy? Why would anyone think that? They are relatively closest and been ally with Korea the longest. If anything Korea would probably ally with China than some western power that is thousands of miles away.


The Chinese Dynasties treated Korean kingdoms as mere vassal states.

Alliance you say? Are you forgetting that China PRC send million men to help Northies aggressions in Korean War? Ask your grandad or relatives who got killed or maimed or raped when the PRCs assisted the Northies in the War?
Protoculture
QUOTE
You think being occupied and mistreated by America is okay?


Occupied ... mistreated? Hell, now's that funny .... how about the Northies, or China PRCs that killed your countrymen in the hundreds of thousands?

You gonna kowtow to 'em, whereby Northies missiles (from China PRCs technology) rained onto your little home?
Protoculture
QUOTE
Last time I checked American soldiers are in Korea occupying.


Last time I checked, only Iraq & Afghanistan are occupied by US forces.

Is anyone dying by roadside bombs or suicide bombing in South Korea ... let me check ... uhh nope!

But only vapid South Korean actresses committed suicide once a while tend to make news, right?
Protoculture
QUOTE
America is no saint either. I say we kick both China and America out. They're looking out is for their interests. NOT Koreans.


Of course America is no Saint. That's why the Iranians labelled USA as the Great Satan. But China PRC is no less evil too.

China PRC interest is North Korea. US economic interest are South Korea & Japan. US invested a lot in your country, so to lose their goldmine over hailstorm of Northies missiles or China's nukes is great lose indeed!

As for Northies their goal in the reunification of Korean Peninsular under Marxist Commies flags. That means, enterprising South Korean conglomerates turned into agricultural commune with prisons & detention centers for democracy lovers.
Protoculture
QUOTE
We all know Korea's views towards Chinese are skewed.


So, with China patronage over Northies still present, you still thinking oh yessss, the Commies sided with your Northies Marxists runts eveready to blow you to hell given an excuse, meanwhile Uncle Sam still maintained garrison troops to die for South Koreans should the conflict happens!

Who answered the call to defend South Korea in 1950s from complete annihilation & subjugation by Northies? Is it the Northies? Is it the Chinese PRCs? Is it the Russians?

Or is it the American GIs led by MacArthur straight from Japan?
Protoculture
QUOTE
I'm a realist not some stupid $hit who needs to side with someone who are really oppressed. Chinese needs to be stopped along with America however.


How you're gonna stop a superpower with nukes & control the rogue & hostile regime that is your friggin' neighbouring country?

If you're a realist that you claimed to be, you should realised the USA geoplitical interests & China itself. Without North Korea, China will lose leverage militarily against US & her Allies, namely South Korea & Japan. US abandoning Japan & South Korea will only emboldened the North to realise their wet dream in unifying Korean Peninsukar in cold blood, with China has upper hand in pot shot the Japanese.
Protoculture
QUOTE
Korea only favors America and nothing else. Even emulating American culture. To me that's not a sovereign nation.


There, the fact that South Korean favors US practically say everything. Yet, South Koreans managed to preserve their unique cultural identity & proud of it, much like Japan. Now that is a sovereign nation!
KJlost
QUOTE(SejongTheGreat @ Nov 11 2007, 02:28 PM) *
name calling (persona attack) has been reported.

Last time I checked American soldiers are in Korea occupying.


Then your definition of occupation is out of synch with the rest of the world. They don't control domestic laws, or have any influence over Korean citizens. How do they occupy anything?

And name calling? Come on, your terrible use of the title of the greatest Chosun King is what's insulting.
master_fx
QUOTE
Last time I checked, only Iraq & Afghanistan are occupied by US forces.

Is anyone dying by roadside bombs or suicide bombing in South Korea ... let me check ... uhh nope!

But only vapid South Korean actresses committed suicide once a while tend to make news, right?

maybe they could be more useful than dying, apparently japanese must have told GI some secrets before they left.
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/feb97army.html
SantaKlaws
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Nov 12 2007, 07:29 PM) *
How you're gonna stop a superpower with nukes & control the rogue & hostile regime that is your friggin' neighbouring country?

If you're a realist that you claimed to be, you should realised the USA geoplitical interests & China itself. Without North Korea, China will lose leverage militarily against US & her Allies, namely South Korea & Japan. US abandoning Japan & South Korea will only emboldened the North to realise their wet dream in unifying Korean Peninsukar in cold blood, with China has upper hand in pot shot the Japanese.


First, North Korea is slowly transforming from a communist state to a nationalist one, although there's no change in the dictatorship. And I bet that Kim Jung-il hates China in the guts, as did his father. Traditionally, North Korea's been more aligned with Russia than China. China managed to buy out North Korea by supporting North Korea when North Korea was being isolated by all other countries because of the nukes, but once that isolation is over, China won't have any special advantage over others, particularly South Korea, in engaging North Korea. As U.S. and South Korea makes peace with North Korea, China will come out as the biggest loser.
bangaroo
QUOTE(SantaKlaws @ Nov 12 2007, 05:53 PM) *
First, North Korea is slowly transforming from a communist state to a nationalist one, although there's no change in the dictatorship. And I bet that Kim Jung-il hates China in the guts, as did his father. Traditionally, North Korea's been more aligned with Russia than China. China managed to buy out North Korea by supporting North Korea when North Korea was being isolated by all other countries because of the nukes, but once that isolation is over, China won't have any special advantage over others, particularly South Korea, in engaging North Korea. As U.S. and South Korea makes peace with North Korea, China will come out as the biggest loser.


I don't think unified Korea can effect China's ambition. Soon China will start dealing with unified Korea as its ally rather than enemy.
China knows controlling Korea will be hard, so they will try make Korea VS Japan (you know Chinese don't like to fight, they normally will try to use barbarian against barbarian tactic).

I think question is upto what Japanese think about Korea & China. Even Japan don't like unified Korea, STRONG KOREA also mean peace in NE Asia, as both sides will be stalemate position, thus maintain relatively peaceful relations. As much we know about East Asian, they loves to make $$$$ rather than war, because war will cost $$$$ more than they can save up.

IMHO, Unified & strong Korea is good for everyone, or at least they can make $$$$$ time being. Which will bring happy smiles to everyone icon_smile.gif

Also, I think unified Korea will maintain friendly relations with everyone, something like Korea will be neutral.
SantaKlaws
QUOTE(bangaroo @ Nov 13 2007, 10:10 AM) *
I don't think unified Korea can effect China's ambition. Soon China will start dealing with unified Korea as its ally rather than enemy.
China knows controlling Korea will be hard, so they will try make Korea VS Japan (you know Chinese don't like to fight, they normally will try to use barbarian against barbarian tactic).

I think question is upto what Japanese think about Korea & China. Even Japan don't like unified Korea, STRONG KOREA also mean peace in NE Asia, as both sides will be stalemate position, thus maintain relatively peaceful relations. As much we know about East Asian, they loves to make $$$$ rather than war, because war will cost $$$$ more than they can save up.

IMHO, Unified & strong Korea is good for everyone, or at least they can make $$$$$ time being. Which will bring happy smiles to everyone icon_smile.gif

Also, I think unified Korea will maintain friendly relations with everyone, something like Korea will be neutral.


The fundamental difference is that I don't share your rosy dreams of China's "peaceful" rise, and China, even in its infancy as a "superpower"(though I doubt it will become one), has already lost its credibility as a trustworthy neighbor. And conflicts do not necessarily manifest into wars, but also distrust and military preparedness against eachother.
Dotori
QUOTE(SantaKlaws @ Nov 12 2007, 05:35 PM) *
The fundamental difference is that I don't share your rosy dreams of China's "peaceful" rise, and China, even in its infancy as a "superpower"(though I doubt it will become one), has already lost its credibility as a trustworthy neighbor. And conflicts do not necessarily manifest into wars, but also distrust and military preparedness against eachother.


I think making China the next Superpower is bit over exaggerating, may be regional superpower, but clearly not global Superpower.
China will not get to control monetary system, they don't even have access to vast quantities of minerals, irons, oils, gas, and pioneered technologies like USA or Russia.

I still believe USA & Russia are still global Superpowers and will be stay this way for long time until USA & Russia becomes fragmented and lose regional power plays, then there will be some chances for China & India, until then No chance.

China celebrated their first launch of Moon probe, but USA & Russia did this almost 50 years ago, and 50 years of technology is huge gap. Yes I am sure China will catch up quickly but China still have to go through many things like democracy and freedom. Soon people China will ask more from their Government and Chinese government will have hard time to defend their position, and this is how most democratic nations started.

China still have many mountains to climbs.

- One child policy & maintaining aging population
- regional tensions & Taiwan
- Tibet & Hui ethnic issues
- communism vs capitalism + democracy vs social-democrat
- monetary system & funding issues
- Energy issue
- Environmental issues
- Water crisis
- demand of Natural resource vs price of resource

Etc.. now that's alot of serious issues, so are China really going to war with rest of it's neighbors?
Titanium
QUOTE(Dotori @ Nov 13 2007, 02:55 AM) *
I think making China the next Superpower is bit over exaggerating, may be regional superpower, but clearly not global Superpower.
China will not get to control monetary system, they don't even have access to vast quantities of minerals, irons, oils, gas, and pioneered technologies like USA or Russia.

I still believe USA & Russia are still global Superpowers and will be stay this way for long time until USA & Russia becomes fragmented and lose regional power plays, then there will be some chances for China & India, until then No chance.

China celebrated their first launch of Moon probe, but USA & Russia did this almost 50 years ago, and 50 years of technology is huge gap. Yes I am sure China will catch up quickly but China still have to go through many things like democracy and freedom. Soon people China will ask more from their Government and Chinese government will have hard time to defend their position, and this is how most democratic nations started.

China still have many mountains to climbs.

- One child policy & maintaining aging population
- regional tensions & Taiwan
- Tibet & Hui ethnic issues
- communism vs capitalism + democracy vs social-democrat
- monetary system & funding issues
- Energy issue
- Environmental issues
- Water crisis
- demand of Natural resource vs price of resource

Etc.. now that's alot of serious issues, so are China really going to war with rest of it's neighbors?

You make some very good points. Personally I don't care if China becomes a superpower or not. My greatest wish is for the Chinese people to climb out of poverty and enjoy a relatively decent standard of living (Yes I admit it's a bit idealistic). As faulty as the current Chinese government is on alot of issues, they've done a relatively decent job at improving standards of living and modernizing. As I've said before, the majority of Chinese people should worry more about the problems in their own countries rather than another's. I'm glad to know that this seems to be the case amongst the majority of people in China today (The constant bickering on AF or any internet forums is hardly representative of reality).

A few people here have mentioned external hostilities. I'm not too worried about that issue; the majority of these hostilities really are nothing more than small talk from angry biased extremists. Don't get me wrong, China should definitely keep alert and play her cards right so she can defend her national interests and security in necessary, (Mainly territorial sovereignty) but in general the main focus should be internal issues. As for war, I really hope that the current PRC government isn't crazy enough to go to war and based on recent geopolitical developments, I'd say they're not headed down that path. The PRC has proven that it's very much possible to achieve economic/political means without military subjugation. One needs to look no further than Sudan or Burma.
davee
This topic is really getting meaningless. It is not like China is ready to invade South Korea.

China wants Taiwan, not Korea. What would China do with Korea if it were to get Korea? There is really nothing that China wants from Korea. Land - Korea is not the largest country in the world. Technology - China is not that much behind Korea. China is more interested in the technology from the West and possibly Japan than Korea. Natural resources - how much can Korea provide? Dealing with the North Koreans has always been a losing proposition for China.

China is interested in developing its economy. Close to 5 million Koreans visisted China in recent years (1 in 10 in population). Anyone been to China would tell you that China wants to develop economically. My feeling is that most of the Koreans here have never been to China.
SantaKlaws
QUOTE(davee @ Nov 14 2007, 02:35 PM) *
This topic is really getting meaningless. It is not like China is ready to invade South Korea.

China wants Taiwan, not Korea. What would China do with Korea if it were to get Korea? There is really nothing that China wants from Korea. Land - Korea is not the largest country in the world. Technology - China is not that much behind Korea. China is more interested in the technology from the West and possibly Japan than Korea. Natural resources - how much can Korea provide? Dealing with the North Koreans has always been a losing proposition for China.


China has already been taking advantage of the nuke crisis to exploit natural resources in North Korea, and it spent a lot of effort to maintain that advantage. China has practically made North Korea its economic colony during the nuke crisis, which came as a shock to many South Koreans, including Kim Daejung, a moderate-left former president. So it seems rather that you're the one who's blind to the situation here, so don't be so presumptuous.

QUOTE
China is interested in developing its economy. Close to 5 million Koreans visisted China in recent years (1 in 10 in population). Anyone been to China would tell you that China wants to develop economically. My feeling is that most of the Koreans here have never been to China.


And the latest news today: admist repeated violent attacks on Koreans in Shenyang, there are anti-Korean racist discussions on the Chinese internet justifying and supporting those violent attacks. Not to mention it isn't hard to come by a Chinese who think Korea should become a part of China. Hell, there's quite a few on this board too.
meiyou
QUOTE(SantaKlaws @ Nov 14 2007, 02:51 AM) *
China has already been taking advantage of the nuke crisis to exploit natural resources in North Korea, and it spent a lot of effort to maintain that advantage. China has practically made North Korea its economic colony during the nuke crisis, which came as a shock to many South Koreans, including Kim Daejung, a moderate-left former president. So it seems rather that you're the one who's blind to the situation here, so don't be so presumptuous. BTW, I've lived in China.


Twisting and spining again. Chinese investment to NK is no different from SK investment to China. China always had trade relations with NK. America and Japan put an all out sanction against NK during the nuclear crisis, which intensifies NK trade relationship with China. No one can't blame China there. No goods from North Korea are competitive enough in terms of international trades, which is understandable. So she ends up becoming a natural resources seller. It's called "global division of labor" that North Korea egar to be part of it. Everyone has to work their way up and find a way to escape bottom feeder status. China played the role NK is playing right now. So don't whine. I only see trade relationships between China and North Korea becoming even more tighter than ever. North Korea is not going to trust anyone 100%, specially not with factions attempt to undermine her sovereignty such as South Korea conservatives. Like I said before, South Korean conservatives need to learn to shut up. Pointing fingers at North Korea or China is not going to change a thing. icon_wink.gif

QUOTE
And the latest news today: admist repeated violent attacks on Koreans in Shenyang, there are anti-Korean racist discussions on the Chinese internet justifying and supporting those violent attacks. Not to mention it isn't hard to come by a Chinese who think Korea should become a part of China. Hell, there's quite a few on this board too.

Wow, just wow! Hey, maybe you should explore the possibility to become a career politician? embarassedlaugh.gif
Ecthelion
At least we don't put military bases in North Korea.

You SK all know you're not actually a sovereign nation. Sovereign nations don't come with 30,000 foreign troops (read: rapists) on their soil.

Effectively this argument is null because you can't really have "enemies" or "allies" when you're a slave to another country to begin with.

Become an independent country first then start your sh1t against us.
davee
QUOTE(SantaKlaws @ Nov 14 2007, 03:51 AM) *
China has already been taking advantage of the nuke crisis to exploit natural resources in North Korea, and it spent a lot of effort to maintain that advantage. China has practically made North Korea its economic colony during the nuke crisis, which came as a shock to many South Koreans, including Kim Daejung, a moderate-left former president. So it seems rather that you're the one who's blind to the situation here, so don't be so presumptuous.
And the latest news today: admist repeated violent attacks on Koreans in Shenyang, there are anti-Korean racist discussions on the Chinese internet justifying and supporting those violent attacks. Not to mention it isn't hard to come by a Chinese who think Korea should become a part of China. Hell, there's quite a few on this board too.


Don't know what you are talking about. China always gives more to North Korea than what it takes. Remember, China provides 80% of the energy needs of North Korea. South Korea does not even come close.

What violent attacks are you talking about? China is violently attacking Korea with is nuke bombs? Come on, man.

People say all kinds of things on the Internet. Some Chinese Internet users say all kinds of thing about Korea, just like some Korean Internet users say all kinds of things about China. It is just a part of the Internet. If your view is totally based on what is said in the Internet, you are in trouble.

.
bangaroo
QUOTE(davee @ Nov 14 2007, 09:44 AM) *
Don't know what you are talking about. China always gives more to North Korea than what it takes. Remember, China provides 80% of the energy needs of North Korea. South Korea does not even come close.

What violent attacks are you talking about? China is violently attacking Korea with is nuke bombs? Come on, man.

People say all kinds of things on the Internet. Some Chinese Internet users say all kinds of thing about Korea, just like some Korean Internet users say all kinds of things about China. It is just a part of the Internet. If your view is totally based on what is said in the Internet, you are in trouble.

.


Not so true, SK is exporting excessive electricity to NK for long time now in case you don't know. Along with US & Japan provinding crude oils to NK.
In fact SK have been providing NK with many things, but sadly doesn't get notice.

China strategically need Korea against to other foreign aggressor, and highly unlikely will use Nuke on Korean peninsula even Korea goes anti-China, like always China have been dealing with SK more than NK ever since China openup for trade.

In fact NK issue is big headache to China. Some analysts say China is using NK as opportunity to deal with USA, but we don't know the whole story goes behind the China-US relation. And there is even corrupt Chinese government officials taking bribes from Kim Jong IL regime, so there is some dark cloud among China-NK relation.

I have seen rise of anti-Koreanism in China which is bit odd, but sadly rise of nationalism in China is turning into extream level in Internet, even abusing with foul languages. But we don't care about that as most Chinese also like Korean as well.
bangaroo
QUOTE(Ecthelion @ Nov 14 2007, 03:31 AM) *
At least we don't put military bases in North Korea.

You SK all know you're not actually a sovereign nation. Sovereign nations don't come with 30,000 foreign troops (read: rapists) on their soil.

Effectively this argument is null because you can't really have "enemies" or "allies" when you're a slave to another country to begin with.

Become an independent country first then start your sh1t against us.


Duh! Does NK need Chinese troops?

Futhermore, how many times we have to tell ya SK is sovereign nation, even China recognize SK as sovereign nation and SK is UN member.
Again, you use this ridiculous "slavery" terms to describe Korea, wasn't many Han Chinese were slaves to manchu master before you guys turned to PRC?

Also HK & Macau was practically owned & operated by foreign country, at least SK don't follow or use American common laws. Never use this slavery word again dumbo
SantaKlaws
QUOTE(davee @ Nov 14 2007, 11:44 PM) *
Don't know what you are talking about. China always gives more to North Korea than what it takes. Remember, China provides 80% of the energy needs of North Korea. South Korea does not even come close.

What violent attacks are you talking about? China is violently attacking Korea with is nuke bombs? Come on, man.

People say all kinds of things on the Internet. Some Chinese Internet users say all kinds of thing about Korea, just like some Korean Internet users say all kinds of things about China. It is just a part of the Internet. If your view is totally based on what is said in the Internet, you are in trouble.



China gives North Korea oil, and in return, it imports North Korea's natural resources, such as coal and iron, at a cheap price. And that China provides the majority of North Korea's energy is presicely why the nuke crsis wasn't going anywhere until the U.S. began the financial sanctions. Both South Korea and Russia offered energy in return for North Korea's dismantlement of nukes, but offers like that won't work at all when China is unconditionally supporting the NK regime with oil in order to prolong the nuke crisis and take advantage of it for North Korea's natural resources. North Korea isn't the only country that China's been exploiting - there's also the recent case of Myanmar, and also Sudan and Zimbabwe. What's common among these countries is that China is supporting isolated dictatorships that's undermining the potential of the countries that they rule, and in return China gets their natural resources at a cheap price due to lack of competition. The difference is that, on North Korea, China's been going further to make historical claims to North Korean territory, which can be interpreted as preparing a justification for the invasion and annexation of North Korea in the event of its collapse. China has done it before and it's doing everything to justify its imperial occupation of conquered territories, so where's the reason to doubt that it won't do it again?

What violent attacks? Recent case of repeated violent attacks specifically targeting Koreans in China is what I'm talking about. And then there are Chinese people on the internet justifying those attacks with anti-Korean racism. And this is just the tip of it. There are plenty of Chinese out there who believe "Korea should become a part of China", whom I have met both in real life and on the internet. And the government is no better - Chinese diplomats sending threats to South Korean politicians, claiming that all of Korea north of the Han River were "Chinese territory", blatantly telling South Korea to "know your place" on South Korea's plans to build an interntational financial center and etc. Such cases of hostility, provocations and arrogance clearly tell us that a rising China bodes ill for Korea.

QUOTE(bangaroo @ Nov 15 2007, 07:46 AM) *
Not so true, SK is exporting excessive electricity to NK for long time now in case you don't know. Along with US & Japan provinding crude oils to NK.
In fact SK have been providing NK with many things, but sadly doesn't get notice.

China strategically need Korea against to other foreign aggressor, and highly unlikely will use Nuke on Korean peninsula even Korea goes anti-China, like always China have been dealing with SK more than NK ever since China openup for trade.

In fact NK issue is big headache to China. Some analysts say China is using NK as opportunity to deal with USA, but we don't know the whole story goes behind the China-US relation. And there is even corrupt Chinese government officials taking bribes from Kim Jong IL regime, so there is some dark cloud among China-NK relation.

I have seen rise of anti-Koreanism in China which is bit odd, but sadly rise of nationalism in China is turning into extream level in Internet, even abusing with foul languages. But we don't care about that as most Chinese also like Korean as well.


Correction, bangaroo. SK offered to provide electricity in return for North Korea dismantling its nuclear program, but North Korea refused. U.S. and Japan is only planning to provide oil as there's progress right now in the dismantlement of the North Korean nuclear program. Also, China's unquestioned support for North Korea cannot be attributed to corruption, since it's doubtful that the Chinese government would stand by while corrupted government officials haul tons of oil to North Korea and builds roads and highways in North Korea to haul its natural resources into China.
davee
Deleted
davee


China's relationship with North Korea is different than its relationship with Myanmar, Sudan and Zimbabwe. One is political and the other is economic.

There are always going to be idiots on the Internet claiming this or that. Those idiots can be Chinese or Koreans. When it comes to nationalism, tempers can run high, and this can happen to anyone.

I don't think China is making any claims on Korean territory. I bet that if you were to offer China Korea, China will decline. China has enough issues to fooling around with another hot potato.



SantaKlaws
QUOTE(davee @ Nov 15 2007, 08:16 AM) *
China's relationship with North Korea is different than its relationship with Myanmar, Sudan and Zimbabwe. One is political and the other is economic.

There are always going to be idiots on the Internet claiming this or that. Those idiots can be Chinese or Koreans. When it comes to nationalism, tempers can run high, and this can happen to anyone.

I don't think China is making any claims on Korean territory. I bet that if you were to offer China Korea, China will decline. China has enough issues to fooling around with another hot potato.


Fact is that China made historical claims to various Korean kingdoms that ruled North Korea, that their people and territory were part of the "Chinese nation". Such claims were made not by some individual scholar, but by the Chinese government itself. This is a fact. And there's no reason not to doubt that China would actually attempt to invade and annex Korea, or just North Korea, based on such historical justifications(no matter how groundless they are), considering that it has already done so, or attempted to do so, on Tibet and Mongolia, among others.
davee
QUOTE(SantaKlaws @ Nov 14 2007, 07:27 PM) *
Fact is that China made historical claims to Korean territory. This is a fact. And there's no reason not to doubt that China would actually attempt to invade and annex Korea, or just North Korea, based on such historical justifications, considering that it has already done so, or attempted to do so, on Tibet and Mongolia, among others.



Well, it is fact when it actually occurs. Until then, people will just have to agree to disagree.
SantaKlaws
QUOTE(davee @ Nov 15 2007, 08:30 AM) *
Well, it is fact when it actually occurs. Until then, people will just have to agree to disagree.


It is undeniable fact that China's Northeast Project actually occured. It has already been widely publicized and received internatinal attention, thanks to the free press. Unless everyone was lying that such a government project occured, you're just in outright denial of truth.
davee
QUOTE(SantaKlaws @ Nov 14 2007, 07:34 PM) *
It is undeniable fact that China's Northeast Project actually occured. It has already been widely publicized and received internatinal attention, thanks to the free press. Unless everyone was lying that such a government project occured, you're just in outright denial of truth.



It is also a undeniable fact that China's Northeast Project did not specifically make any claims on Korean territory. It is just a historical study of the peoples living in the area. Did you actually read the whole project report, or did you just hear it from someone telling you what the project is suppose to mean. If you have actually read it, may be you can share it with all of us on this forum, instead of keep making claims.

Anyway, I don't think China is even serious with the so called Northeast Project. Like I said, if you were to give Korea to China, China will not want it. Is is not like China does not have enough land or people.
bangaroo
QUOTE(SantaKlaws @ Nov 14 2007, 06:34 PM) *
It is undeniable fact that China's Northeast Project actually occured. It has already been widely publicized and received internatinal attention, thanks to the free press. Unless everyone was lying that such a government project occured, you're just in outright denial of truth.


Most Chinese doesn't know about this "China's Northeast Project", isn't this Coz, Chinese government don't tell truth about their intension to their citizen?
I know China practically controls their media, well considering they block most western medias.
davee
QUOTE(bangaroo @ Nov 14 2007, 07:48 PM) *
Most Chinese doesn't know about this "China's Northeast Project", isn't this Coz, Chinese government don't tell truth about their intension to their citizen?
I know China practically controls their media, well considering they block most western medias.



Yes, I agree, most Chinese (in China or outside China) don't know much about it, but most Chinese don't think Korea is China's either.

However, I do think that a lots of Koreans are making this so called Northeast Project something that it really is not.


.
Captain Corea
QUOTE(Ecthelion @ Nov 14 2007, 03:31 AM) *
At least we don't put military bases in North Korea.

You SK all know you're not actually a sovereign nation. Sovereign nations don't come with 30,000 foreign troops (read: rapists) on their soil.

Effectively this argument is null because you can't really have "enemies" or "allies" when you're a slave to another country to begin with.

Become an independent country first then start your sh1t against us.



You really have no idea no idea what the words 'sovereign' and 'slave' mean do you?
SantaKlaws
QUOTE(davee @ Nov 15 2007, 08:48 AM) *
It is also a undeniable fact that China's Northeast Project did not specifically make any claims on Korean territory. It is just a historical study of the peoples living in the area. Did you actually read the whole project report, or did you just hear it from someone telling you what the project is suppose to mean. If you have actually read it, may be you can share it with all of us on this forum, instead of keep making claims.

Anyway, I don't think China is even serious with the so called Northeast Project. Like I said, if you were to give Korea to China, China will not want it. Is is not like China does not have enough land or people.


The Northeast Project is quite similar to its counterparts of China's justification for the occupation of Tibet, that Tibet and various Korean kingdoms were "part of the Chinese nation". The Northeast Project was a government project with a specific political goal set in mind, not just some mere historical study. I have not read the actual project itself, but I have read plenty of reliable analysis on this project.

China was quite serious when they were allocation billions of dollars that would so obviously cause contentions with both Koreas. And China has already practically made North Korea into its economic colony, so the fact that China desires Korea's natural resources and it would employ any dirty tactics to get them is already established.

QUOTE(bangaroo @ Nov 15 2007, 08:48 AM) *
Most Chinese doesn't know about this "China's Northeast Project", isn't this Coz, Chinese government don't tell truth about their intension to their citizen?
I know China practically controls their media, well considering they block most western medias.


While it's true that most Chinese don't know, the Chinese government has been circulating the claims in Chinese political media for the communist party and the military.

Anyways, this is another good analysis on China's strategic ambitions on Korea that just came in today from Weekly Chosun:

QUOTE
[국제] 중국의 한반도 전략
한국은 FTA로 묶고 북한은 경제 식민지로
‘경제 동북공정’ 노린다
‘한반도 통일’ 내세워 동북지역 연결한 ‘경제공동체’로
북한의 자원·노동력과 한국의 기술·자본 종속시킬 의도
이념보다 경제적 실리 위해 한반도에 대한 영향력 확대
‘통일코리아’연구기구 만들고 싱크탱크 대거 투입
동북공정 노골화… “북한도 중국땅” 역사 조작 나서
한국엔 경제 미끼 친화 정책으로 미·일 견제 효과 노려

중국은 노무현 대통령과 김정일 북한 국방위원장이 합의한 남북정상회담 공동선언문(2007년 10월 4일자)에 매우 민감한 반응을 보이고 있다. 한국전쟁 종전 선언을 위한 3자 정상회담을 할 경우 중국이 제외될 수 있기 때문이다. 중국은 특히 김 위원장이 ‘3자 또는 4자 정상회담’을 제의한 것으로 알려지자 당혹스런 표정을 감추지 못하고 있다. 이 때문에 중국 외교부는 중국을 배제한 3자 정상회담은 수용할 수 없다는 공식입장을 천명하기도 했다.(2007년 10월 9일자) 류젠차오(劉建超) 외교부 대변인은 “중국은 동북아시아에서 중요한 영향력을 보유하고 있는 국가일 뿐만 아니라 정전협정의 체결 당사자이므로 한반도와 동북아의 평화체제에 관해 중요한 역할을 하는 것이 당연하다”고 강조했다. 중국 정부 일각에선 중국의 지원 없이 한반도 통일이 불가능하다는 말까지 나오고 있다.

이처럼 중국이 강경한 입장을 보이고 있는 것은 북한 핵문제가 해결된 이후 한반도와 동북아의 국제질서 변화에 자국의 이익과 영향력이 직결됐기 때문이다. 중국은 또 남북한의 통일 가능성과 이에 따른 ‘통일 코리아’(가칭)가 앞으로 어떤 형태의 국가가 될 것이며, 자국과는 어떤 관계를 맺을 것인지를 집중적으로 연구해왔다. 중국은 지난해 초 싱크탱크인 ‘중국개혁개방논단’ 내부에 ‘조선반도평화연구중심’을 설립, 한반도 문제를 종합적으로 평가할 수 있는 다양한 전공의 중량급 인사를 대거 포진시켰다. 중국개혁개방논단은 후진타오(胡錦濤) 국가주석의 싱크탱크 역할을 하는 관영연구기구이다. 이 기구의 쩡비젠(鄭必堅) 이사장은 공산당 선전부 상무 부부장(차관급)과 중앙당교 상무 부교장을 역임한 후 주석의 최측근 인물이다. 정 이사장은 지난 2003년 10월 후 주석의 외교 노선인 ‘화평굴기(和平堀起·평화적 부상)’라는 개념을 처음 개발했다. 이 기구에 ‘조선반도평화연구중심’이 만들어졌다는 것은 중국이 한반도 문제를 향후 외교·안보정책의 최우선 과제로 삼고 있다는 증거라고 말할 수 있다. 중국은 또 2004년 말 국무원 산하 ‘국무원발전연구중심’ 내부에 ‘조선반도연구중심’을 새로 만들었다. 국무원발전연구중심은 중국 최고의 연구기관이자 중앙정부의 핵심 싱크탱크다. 중국 공산당도 중앙당교 내에 한반도를 중심으로 한 동북아 정세와 안보 구도를 분석하는 별도의 팀을 조직했다. 중국이 이런 연구기관들을 만든 것은 미래의 동북아 패권을 겨냥한 ‘한반도공정’을 시작하려는 의도라고 볼 수 있다. 중국의 대(對)한반도 전략은 동북아, 나아가 아시아 전체 전략과도 맞물려 있기 때문이다.

중국의 대한반도 전략의 지렛대는 물론 북한이다. 중국 입장에선 ‘피를 나눈 동맹’인 북한이 자국의 이익을 보장할 수 있는 역할을 하기를 기대해왔다. 하지만 북한은 지난해 10월 9일 중국의 만류에도 불구하고 핵실험을 강행했다. 2008년 베이징올림픽을 앞둔 중국은 당시 북한의 핵실험에 배신감마저 토로했을 정도로 충격을 받은 것으로 전해졌다.

북한이 핵실험을 실시한 직후, 중국 외교부가 ‘국제사회의 광범위한 반대를 무시하고 제멋대로 핵실험을 했다’고 강경한 성명을 발표한 것은 중국이 과거처럼 일방적으로 북한 편들기를 하지 않겠다는 것으로 볼 수 있다. 중국의 이런 분위기를 감지한 듯 김정일 위원장은 지난 3월 4일 평양 주재 중국대사관을 전격 방문했다. 김 위원장의 중국대사관 방문은 지난 2001년 7월 이후 처음이다. 당시 김 위원장의 이례적 방문은 소원해진 양국 관계를 복원하려는 의도라고 볼 수 있다.

중국도 북한과의 관계 악화는 더 이상 바람직하지 않다는 판단에 따라 북한과의 갈등을 봉합했다. 무엇보다 중국으로선 북한과의 기존 관계 유지가 안보문제를 비롯한 현실적 국가 이익에 긴요하기 때문이다. 중국은 그동안 한반도 문제와 관련, “한반도의 평화와 안정을 바라며, 평화적 통일을 지지한다”는 발언을 공식적으로 되풀이해왔다. 한반도 평화와 안정을 바란다는 것은 전쟁 등이 발발하지 않기를 원한다는 뜻이다. 이는 한반도의 현상황이 변하지 않는 것을 전제로 한다. 평화적 통일은 현상유지가 아니다. 다시 말해 중국은 비핵화 상태의 분단된 한반도의 현상유지가 자국의 이익에 가장 바람직한 상태라는 뜻이다. 북한의 핵무장은 대만과 일본, 한국의 핵무장을 부추길 수 있기 때문이다. 미국이 양안관계에서 현상유지를 바라듯이, 중국도 한반도의 현상유지가 국익에 도움이 된다고 보고 있다. 물론 중국은 과거처럼 북한과 정치·군사적으로 순망치한(脣亡齒寒)의 관계를 원하지는 않는다. 때문에 중국은 북한과의 관계 강화를 이념의 차원보다 국익의 맥락에서 보고 북한에 대한 영향력 유지 및 확대를 도모하려는 움직임을 보이고 있다.

이런 점에서 볼 때 중국의 대북전략에서 눈여겨볼 대목은 경제협력이다. 중국의 대북 경제 진출은 지하자원 채굴권 확보와 개발, 에너지와 항만 및 물류 등 사회간접자본의 투자 및 조차권, 의류·신발·식품·가전제품 등 소비재의 수출 확대 등 세 가지로 볼 수 있다. 정확한 통계가 발표된 적은 없지만 중국은 북한 경제의 80% 정도를 장악하고 있다고 해도 과언이 아니다. 2006년 북·중 간 교역액은 16억9960만달러로 2005년에 비해 7.5% 증가했으며, 북한은 수출 4억6772만달러, 수입 12억3189만달러로 중국에 대해 7억6417만달러의 무역적자를 기록했다. 북·중 무역의 확대는 북한의 중국에 대한 의존도를 심화시키는 결과를 초래하고 있다. 상황이 이렇다 보니 자칫하면 경제분야에서 중국의 동북공정(東北工程)이 자연적으로 실현될 가능성도 배제할 수 없다. 중국으로선 김정일 이후, 또는 한반도 통일 이후까지도 한반도에 영향력을 계속 유지하기 위해서는 북한 경제를 자국에 종속시키는 것이 가장 실용적이다. 이렇게 되면 북한은 중국의 동북 지역에서 네 번째 성(省)이 되는 셈이다. 실제로 중국은 동북3성의 경제 발전을 위해 북한의 풍부한 지하자원을 활용하고 있으며, 북한을 자국 상품의 시장으로 인식하고 있다. 중국의 속셈은 북한을 동북3성의 경제권으로 묶어 두려는 것이다.

중국의 입장에선 이런 전략이 한국과의 관계 강화에도 유리하다. 지난 8월 24일로 중국과 한국은 수교 15주년이 됐는데 가장 괄목할 만한 변화는 양국의 경제분야이다. 1992년 수교 당시 50억달러에 불과하던 연간 교역액은 지난해 1343억달러로 27배나 증가했다. 이는 지난해 한국과 미국 간 교역액의 2배에 가깝다. 올 상반기 한·중 교역액은 740억달러로 연말이면 1500억달러, 2012년에는 2000억달러에 이를 전망이다. 한국은 작년 기준으로 중국의 4대 수출국, 2대 수입국이 된 반면 중국은 한국의 최대 수출국, 2대 수입국이 됐다. 또 한국의 총 수출에서 각국이 차지하는 비중은 중국 21.3%, 미국 13.3%, 일본 8.2%, 홍콩 5.8%였다. 한국의 대중 수출은 미국·일본을 합친 비중(21.5%)과 대등하며 홍콩을 포함할 경우 27.1%로 이보다 높다. 한국의 총 수입에서 각국이 차지하는 비중은 일본 16.8%, 중국 15.7%, 미국 10.9%였다. 한국의 대중 무역수지는 1992년 10억7000만달러의 적자를 기록했으나 이듬해인 1993년 12억2000만달러의 흑자 전환 이후 지속적으로 증가세를 보이고 있다. 한국의 대중 무역수지 흑자는 지난해 209억달러로 중국은 한국의 최대 무역수지 흑자국이다. 한국의 대중 투자는 상위 3, 4위를 다툰다. 지난해 말까지 누적투자액은 349억달러에 이른다. 이런 통계를 볼 때 한국과 중국은 과거 한국과 미국의 관계처럼 경제적으로 떼려야 뗄 수 없는 사이가 됐다. 특히 한국은 중국으로부터 상당한 무역수지 흑자를 내고 있기 때문에 중국의 눈치를 볼 수밖에 없다. 중국은 이런 경제분야의 밀접한 관계를 십분 활용해왔으며, 앞으로 더욱 한국에 대해 영향력을 행사하려 할 것이다.

경제 관계가 강화되면서 양국의 인적 교류도 활발하다. 양국 간 상호방문객은 1992년 13만명에서 지난해 480만명으로 37배 늘었다. 문화적으로도 중국 13억 인구 가운데 1억명 이상이 매일 한국 드라마를 시청하는 등 한류(韓流)가 상당하다. 한국에서는 중국어 학습 인구가 급증하는 등 한풍(漢風)도 거세게 불고 있다. 중국에 유학 중인 한국인 유학생은 중국 전체 외국 유학생(16만명)의 36%인 5만7000명에 달한다. 한국에 유학한 중국 학생도 2만명이 넘는다.

하지만 중국과 한국은 정치·외교·군사적으론 관계가 소원하다. 양국은 ‘전면적 협력동반자 관계’ 구축에 합의했지만 이는 외교적 수사에 불과하다. 양국 관계가 경제 분야의 협력 수준을 뛰어넘지 못하고 있는 것은 바로 정치나 사회 체제가 다르고, 국민의 가치관도 크게 차이가 나기 때문이다. 양국이 지향하는 목표도 다르다. 중국은 한국을 자국 편에 끌어들여 미국과 일본을 견제하려는 의도를 갖고 있다. 미국과 패권 다툼을 벌이고 있는 중국은 이미 러시아와 중앙아시아 각국을 묶어 일종의 동맹체제를 구축하고 있다. 중국은 특히 이란·베네수엘라·수단·짐바브웨·미얀마 등 독재국가나 반미 국가들과의 관계도 강화하는 전략을 추진해왔다. 중국은 또 대만을 흡수통일한다는 방침 아래 경제협력을 강화하고 군사력도 대폭 증강해왔다. 중국의 군사대국화는 궁극적으로 미국과 일본을 겨냥하고 있다는 점을 감안할 때 미국과 군사동맹 관계를 유지하고 있는 한국과는 거리를 둘 수밖에 없다. 중국의 속내는 이미 동북공정에서 나타난 바 있다. 중국이 2002년부터 본격적으로 추진한 동북공정은 대동강 이북의 북한 땅을 자국의 영토라고 주장하기 위한 역사 조작 프로젝트이다. 동북공정은 한반도 북부와 만주 지역을 장악했던 고구려 등 고대 국가들을 중국 역사에 포함시키려는 의도로 추진된 것이다. 중국의 목적은 한반도가 통일됐을 때에 대비해 북한 땅에 대한 역사적 연고권을 주장하려는 것이다.

한국은 중국과 수교 당시 중국이 북한에 대한 영향력을 통해 한반도에서 전쟁을 방지하고 통일에도 도움이 되기를 기대했다. 전쟁 예방 차원에서 볼 때 중국과의 수교는 어느 정도 평화에 기여한 것이 사실이다. 그럼에도 불구하고 북한은 중국과 한국의 수교에 자극을 받아 핵무기 개발을 적극 추진하는 등 부정적 결과를 낳기도 했다. 중국은 또 한반도 통일이란 측면에서는 별다른 역할을 하지 않았다는 점도 간과해서는 안 된다. 경제적 측면에서 볼 때 중국이 한국에 상당한 이익을 가져다준 것은 사실이다. 수많은 기업이 중국에 진출, 새로운 시장을 개척했고 값싼 노동력을 이용해 미국 등으로 제품을 수출해 톡톡히 재미를 보기도 했다. 앞으로도 중국이라는 거대 시장은 한국 경제 발전의 발판이 될 것이다.

하지만 중국과의 경제협력이 긴밀해질수록 한국은 중국에 종속될 수 있다. 중국은 이미 한국의 이 같은 약점을 간파하고 있다. 중국의 대한반도 전략은 바로 경제적 측면을 이용하는 것이다. 중국은 한국과 북한을 묶어 자국과의 경제공동체를 구축하려는 의도를 보이고 있다. 이를 위해 중국은 한국과 자유무역협정(FTA)을 맺기 위해 전방위적 노력을 기울이고 있다. 리둔추(李敦球) 조선반도연구중심 주임은 “중국은 북한과 지리적으로 인접해 있고 철도로 연결돼 있다”면서 “중·한 FTA가 체결되면 북한도 경제협력에 적극 참여할 수 있다”고 강조했다. 리 주임은 “이는 남북한 경제공동체 건설은 물론 남북한 통일에도 긍정적 영향을 줄 수 있을 것”이라면서 “중·한 FTA 체결 추진은 서로 이익이 아주 많이 남는 전략”이라고 밝혔다.

제17차 공산당 전국대표대회를 통해 친정체제를 구축한 후 주석은 앞으로 중국 발전의 주동력원으로 동북 지역에 상당한 관심을 보일 것이 분명하다. 때문에 중국으로선 자국의 전략적 이익을 위해 한반도와 동북 지역을 연결하는 경제공동체 전략을 추진할 것으로 보인다. 북한의 천연자원과 노동력, 한국의 기술과 자본을 자국 경제에 종속시킨다는 것이다. 물론 중국은 한반도 평화와 통일에 도움을 주기 위한 것이라는 대의명분을 내세울 것이다.

/ 이장훈 국제문제애널리스트 truth21c@empal.com




http://weekly.chosun.com/site/data/html_di...7110901090.html

For those who can't read Korean, I'll translate its summary points:

China aims for "Economic Northeast Project" by tying up South Korea with FTA and making North Korea into a Chinese economic colony.
China will use the "unify the Korean peninsula" slogan to subjugate North Korean natural resources and labor and South Korean technology and capital into an "economic union" connected to China's Northeast.
China is expanding influence into the Korean peninsula for economic benefits than ideological purposes.
China made "Korean ufniciation" research institution and put a lot of thinktanks under its wing.
China is becoming more bold with the Northeast Project, fabricating history that "North Korea was Chinese territory".
China attempts to entice South Korea with economic cooperation to keep the U.S. and Japan in check.

The good thing is that many Koreans are already aware of such ambitions that China has on Korea, and most Koreans have the consensus that China's rising military and economic power is a grave threat to Korea's future. Only upon such consensus can Koreans prepare against this threat that we may secure a future of prosperity and peace.
mobi747br

banned
SantaKlaws
Just ignore that troll and report him. And just in case he manages to confuse some people, Andrei Lankov's expertise in Korean history is in an entirely different period. It's pretty pathetic that CHF has yet to get rid of all those active Chinese trolls there who degrade the level of discussions and fill them with distorted and biased info.
mobi747br
banned
mobi747br
banned
mobi747br
banned
mobi747br
banned
SantaKlaws
If anybody else believes there's a single speck of truth in what that troll is claiming, make a thread about it and I'll be glad to clarify them with reliable sources.
mobi747br
banned
bangaroo
QUOTE(mobi747br @ Nov 14 2007, 08:38 PM) *
"you" and "reliable sources" are mutually exclusive. embarassedlaugh.gif


And you are reliable source of ancient Korean history? And is this best you can support your claim?
LoL, Goguryeo always have been part of Korea's past, Samguk Sagi is not modern historic doc, it's written by Silla's Kim Busik.

And Russians arn't Korean history experts, can't you provide better research work than some Google.com? duh2.gif

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