i've always told people that Kejia(hakka) were the most racially pure Han Chinese of the south because they've mostly refrained from mixing with the various aboriginal people of the south. Despite this, i have not gathered and observed enough samples to say for sure other than my mother's side of the family(Father's side and me are from Henan)

i was wondering if any Kejia(Hakka) members of this board would entertain my curiosity by posting their pics for me to analyze

You do know that both groups (Henan and Hakka) are clustered genetically with SE Asian groups?

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/95/20/11763

PubMed citation: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...9&dopt=Abstract



Considering Henan is the Huaxia homeland, either the Huaxia were closer to Viets or there was some population transference in the past.

Also, the Dong Yi were considered rivals of the Huaxia and considered non-Xia/Shang people even warring the Warring States era. According to a book about archaic Chinese history, there was extensive contact and political closeness (and I think also cultural affinity) between Yi and Wu and Yue. All of this just shows you how shallow and brittle preconceived/accepted ideas are.

The word Dong Yi 東夷 was a general term for people that lived east of the traditional HuaXia homelands.a branch of the Dong Yi were absorbed into the HuaXia as early as Huang Di's time. The HuaXia occupied the western part of Henan and eastern part of Shaanxi, the Dong Yi occupied the eastern part of Henan and parts of Shandong.

by as early as Zhou(before the warring states), all the eastern parts of China proper's Dong Yi population had been absorbed a long time ago. Tungus people to the northeast were also considered Dong Yi, remember

i've read that article before, they took ONE sample from Henan(second most populated province) meaning that could have easily been a migrant from the south with too much austro blood.

Da Nile is a big river hard to get over...
It's always been northern people moving south. You're explanation is possible but unlikely. Also, what if they do a survey of ancient DNA in Henan and find out that the Huaxia were genetically "asutro"? That would be a cruel irony, wouldn't it? And what if the Huaxia were closer to "asutros", will you start being anti-Chinese or pro-"austro", I wonder? Fascinating.
Face it, you're half Hakka and half Henanese, which makes you a full-blown "asutro".
Plus, your stance is illogical at this point anyway since southern Chinese cluster with you know who, unless you wanna be anti-southern Chinese...a full half of the population...not to mention most of the Chinese government's higher-up leadership, cultural figures, intellectuals, tycoons...your own relatives...your're own parents...not to mention yourself

You're an oxymoron...a Jewish Nazi

ancient HuaXia/Dong Yi DNA is austro? hardly, nor is the modern population. my dad's side of the family exhibits pure HuaXia(long face, narrow nose, long legs, broad shoulders, thin lips, rectangular shaped skull) while my mom's side exhibits clear Dong yi features(small eyes, round skull,long legs, flatter face,pale skin)

austros on the other hand, definitely do not have any of those features.

migration from the south into the north is not as rare as you think. Either way, that sample takes from ONE person in Henan without regard to his ancestry or how many generations he has been there.

have you seen northern Chinese and your own people? or even Southern Chinese and your own people

i am not anti-southern either. i just feel it was a mistake not to clean up southern China before migration into it.

don't turn this thread into a flame

No offense, but some of the hakka people in SE Asia are the most negrito looking people compare to other Chinese groups there.

yes, IN southeast asia

i'm sure the austros on this board will try to make Kejia look negrito to use against my mother's side of the family. very predicatable

Kejia migrated from northern China and for a long time remained very isolated from the rest of the population which is why they're called 客家 which means "guest"

hakka! i think im hakka, though not sure...

um,
Anyways, hakka rules, cuz i am one

How do you know what the ancient Huaxia or Dongyi are like? Have you ever read these articles about the skulls they found in that era, which approximates the skulls of modern Chinese of the south? Also, to be all objective, there isn't that big a difference between someone from Henan and someone from Vietnam in the bigger picture. You make it seem like they are from different planets. You're being idiotic.



Didn't you say your dad is half Manchu? Also, given the historical fact that northern China has seen it's population depleteted many times due to famine, massacre, and southern migration, and settlement by the Altaic races, how can you be sure that what you think you describe is that of the Huaxia or Dongyi?

Also, most of the Hakka I've seen look more Viet than Beijinger. If Hakka are so pure, then the original Hua were closer genetically to Vietnamese because Hakka clusters with the south. Or Hakka maybe are a mix of south and north.

You also seem to think that there is a correlation between appearance and genetics, and that's not always the case.


Who are these austros you keep talking about? There is any standard to your definition?


One person? Da Nile is a big river hard to get over.


My own people??? What do you think I am?

Well, the north is better? When Chu took samples from Beijing, Inner Mongolia, Gansu, and Manchuria to represent northern Chinese, it's kind of weird. Beijing was basically established by the Mongols and it's population is basically descended from all of the Altaics (Jurchen, Toba, Mongol). Yes, these people are the real Chinese. To think that mixed Altaics being more Chinese than mixed Yue is odd. What an irony that the historic enemies of the Chinese have now become the epitome of what's Chinese.

I just find it funny how almost of the nantionalists here are all part Manchu or Mongol, and try to create the impression that most Chinese have a great love of the Altaic peoples, when to most Chinese Mongols are more foreign than Vietnamese.

i'm 1/16 Manchu, yes. my great grandmother was Manchu

well, first of all, we'd rather be mixed with Manchu and Mongol than Viet/austro people. ask any Chinese, we consider them to be a part of greater China especially the Manchus since they're very sinicized

theres no definite proof that an "altaic" race exists. Altaic is a language family. Mongols are turkic in origin, Manchus are Tungus, koreans/Japanese descended from proto samoyedic artic races. i don't have any altaic blood because theres no such thing

Tungus people are related to the Dong Yi which is one of two branches that pure Hans relate to.

i've heard multiple "hakkas look like this, like that". i've heard white supremacists say Hakkas are caucasoid in origin. its all BS. All i have to do is look at all my cousins, aunts, uncles on my mother's side to see NONE of them have jutting jaws, portruding foreheads, high slopping skulls, dark skin,deep eye sockets and other undesirable traits

what proof do you have that ancient HuaXia are related to austronesians? HuaXia are related to Tibetic people so they're the best way to describe what the ancient ones looked like. Do you have any idea how different the climate of YOUR people are from the ones of HuaXia/Dong Yi related races.

It's a shame that Manchurian were once proud people are now completely sinocized.

my grandmother is a hakka.

And they love being Chinese puppies too.

It's a shame not many Manchurians today call themselves Manchurians. Rather, they call themselves "Chinese".

Chinese is a word that is associated with the Han people. Where do you think the word "China" come from?

But anyway, Han Chinese are more than happy to label all ethnic minorities as Chinese so they have more legitimacy over those people and the lands they've conquered.

well maybe before Manchuria, conquered china, they were already sinocized? Unlike the mongols who were sinocized when they took over china.

exactly, they adopted Chinese script as early as when they were referred to as the Jurchens. they admired Chinese culture early on

i'm proud to have Manchus as part of Greater China

It's funny how sometimes I feel northerners are more proud and nationalistic then southerners.
It could be that northerners had lived in hardship in a region dominated by Fotresses ,Strongholds and the Great Wall while southerners had wealth , peace and whore houses.

Anyway hakka people can't be true Han Chinese, and Henan province is melting pot , everyone there is a mix(Han Chinese mix from diffrent regions).

My fathers side is Hakka.

What is the obsession with finding the purest Han traits? Is this not like the search for an aryan super race?

lol yeah, southerners are not politically reliable

are all of you who answered this post are Kejia ren ???

I am just wondering that is all-roll

Their script looks Mongolian to me

And their names (historically) aren't as sinocized as Korean names

no way, i hardly find korean names sinocized, i believe that Mancurian names are more sinocized. Also people dont chage their names normally (i believe) the mongols took over china, they adopted many other chinese culture, like Laws, gov't systems, etc. BUt the Mongols never really change their names to sound like chinese. Well before manchu's ruled china, mongols also played a significant part of chinese hisotry and ruled china for a long time, manchu could also be influence by CHIna then but under mongolian control..................anyway i am just presuming. I only know that when manchu took over china, not many things change, (the hair style for men is one of the biggest changed). Like all dynasties, started off strong, good, but ended corrupted and lead to death.

This is from Duzi over IM. He can't post right now.



EDIT: oops I have 5 twice...changing that.

Anyone else amused by his constant inconsistencies? Remember this is the same guy that loves to laugh and poke fun at China for being conquered by the Manchus and then a few posts later, he'll criticize China as a bunch of evil imperialists because the Manchus became Sinocized. Talk about bad use of logic here. I guess he simply can't make up his mind about how he wants to bash China, so instead of going one way or the other, he'll just go both ways regarding the circumstance even though if it contradicts each other

It's not surprising that Vietnamese want to split China up and stir trouble. Very typical Viet tactic.

It's also funny how Vietnamese claim that only Han = Chinese while their own country has 54 ethnic groups.

no, i'm a dirty Manchu

dirty manchu should be hang...... . I am just kidding man. It's all good. We're all Chinese.

i'm only actually 1/16 Manchu so even if you were serious, it wouldn't mean much

I only know of 2 other Hakkas other than my Immediate family ...They look very northern... both friend has complete northern features, and is tall at 6 feet 5" , two of my grandparents has northern features, one has a bit of southern features maybe 20 % ...

My people? As in Chinese?

The Hua/Xia were the first "Chinese". Later, the dong (eastern) Yi were incorporated. (Where is your claim that Tungus people are related to Dong Yi coming from?) This very technical book about Chinese archeology speculated that the Yi possibly were related to Wu and Yue since they had extensive contact.
-Also, the Zhou who conquered the Shang Huaxia people were non-Chinese Jiang (Tibeto-Burmans).
-Then the Qin and Yan (of mixed nomadic and Chinese origins), Chu, Wu, Yue all became Chinese.

If you look at Chinese culture, including the music you are so into, a lot of it is the contribution of the south. Your whole stance is silly...Illogical.

Jiang people and other modern tibetics are a Xia related race, they belonged to a fiefdom of Shang dynast, just because they were nomadic doesnt mean they were non-Chinese you're not making any new points. When Shang conquered the Xia, some people of Xia dynsaty dispersed. 東夷 was a general term for people east of the (Hua)Xia people which included Tungus people who which by the way are not related to Koreans.

racism was an integral part of early Classical Chinese history, the terms "Li Min" and "Qian shou" were used to designate short brown skin people that Chinese encountered and designated to be lower people.


liberals like you love to remind the world how "mixed" we Chinese are but let me remind you that theres a difference between ethnicity and race. a German of nordic stock marrying a swede of nordic stock is not race mixing. It doesn't matter how much Tungus blood a Han from Dongbei has, his ancestors never took part in actual "race mixing". If any person of HuaXia/Dong Yi stock adopts Han Chinese culture, he can be Han Chinese. at the same time, you think i'm anti-southern when i'm not. not all southerners are mixed even the ones that are, they are still Han but i would simply refrain from mating with someone with too much austro blood.

plus, i am always the first to admit that in the most recent 1000 years, especially in music, it is from the south. at the same time, why should i sit here complacently and let the Han race become more mixed, nothing would make you liberals more happy than to see our people turn into nothing but mongrels

Yeah really. Who cares what part they are from or what region they mixed with.
In the end they are going to be Chinese. Thats about as dumb as the whole Westside Vs Eastside thing that was going on in Rap a couple of yrs back...so stupid.

I only consider Kinh Vietnamese. Actually the other native ethnic groups in Vietnam are actually treated badly by the Kinh for helping the Americans in the Vietnam War, we don't consider them Vietnamese. We really just want their land and we don't have the heart to kick them out of the country, but we do make them live by themselves in their own groups separated from our people with Vietnamese soldiers guarding their reservations.

That's why we only see Han as Chinese, since we Vietnamese usually don't intermingle with our minorities and keep them separated from us, and don't call them Vietnamese but we do call them by their ethnic names.

The power of this method was further suggested by the identification of pockets that were separated by great geographic distances from the main domains. For example, MY that was detected as one of the two major subtypes in South Korea and Japan was also seen in one of the 18 samples from Sweden. Similarly, EU of the territory composed of Europe and western Asia was also found in one sample each from Central Africa and South Korea. Although at this time, no rational explanation can be given to the presence of these pockets, the presence of B2 subtype both in the northeastern extreme of India and in Mauritius off the east coast of Africa can readily be explained by recent migration of a population from the former to the latter. Overall, it appears that JCV genotyping promises to reveal previously unknown human migration routes: ancient as well as recent.

pure northern Manchurian?

1.アイヌと琉球人の間には共通パターンがない
2.アイヌと本土日本人の間には４つの共通パターンがある
3.アイヌと韓国人の間には３つの共通パターンがある

ところが、データをよくみると、中国人と本土日本人の間にも共通パターンがないし、中国人と琉球人の間にも共通パターンがない。

I hate to break it to you, but in terms of Y-haplogroup, which traces the paternal line, northern Chinese are closer to many SE Asian groups than they are to the Altaic peoples, Koreans, and Japanese, and Siberians.

There used to be a site where they had calculators that compared Y-haplogroups, and basically Chinese share more common male ancestors with SE Asians than with Mongolians. Also, in terms of prehistoric culture and language, Chinese are closer to the south than to the north. Even in terms of looks, most regions of northern Chinese look more similar to Viets than to Mongols.

I don't understand your twisted reasoning. You put down Japanese and Koreans (which racially are closer to the Altaic peoples) and yet seem to think Chinese and Altaic group together in a "master" race that is the equivalent of the Nordics? By the way, the Altaics are not the equivalent of Nordics . The rest of Asia do not admire them for their civilization or phenotype or how they smell like cheese (true from personal experience...because they rely on diary all year). Your ideas are very weird.

when did i ever say altaics were part of the master race? altaic is a language family, not an ethnic group. Manchus/Tungus are Dong Yi descendants, Mongols are turkic people. koreans/Japanese are not descendants of Dong Yi but descended from Jomon, and YaoYi artic tribes. HuaXia/Dong Yi Hans are neither southeast asian or "altaic"(since such a group doesn't exist). The Y Haplogroup similarity of Chinese and southeast asians resulted from Chinese migrations into southeast asia over the centuries and ever notice its males that are more similar. its because male Chinese were the ones who mostly migrated down there.

how is Chinese culture closer to southeast asian culture? Vietnam is sinicized and the rest of southeast asia borrows from India. (also, dont;'forget, Korea was at one point more Sinicized than any other country)I mentioned Nordic as an example btw, you didn't read my posts closely or carefully. you're putting words in my mouth obviously

just because YOU resemble an austro doesn't mean MY race has to hold hands and be nice to YOURS

These migrations were prehistoric, so you shouldn't say "Chinese". The M-DNA maternal lineages also have similarities. Basically, SE Asians are a hybrid of northern migrations and the locals (who were negritos/australoids/papuans/melanesians). The aboriginal SE Asians came into SE Asia via a southern route and the Northern Asiatics came into Asia from Central Asia. Central Asia was where Caucasians and Asians/American Indians split in two. Just to put things in perspective for you. It's very complicated and your views are really simplistic and silly...Pure this, pure that



I'm talking about prehistoric culture. Also, from language, music, to food, Chinese have more similarities to the south. And I don't look "austro" nor am I Vietnamese. What is the "austro" look? Your description of it is so farcical...

Chinese have more in common with south? i am especially curious as to why you think Chinese music is related to the south? what do you know about music? Chinese classical/folk music had a profound effect on both Korean/Japanese as well as vietnamese/austro music. you do know that the Korean Gaekyum and Japanese Koto are just rip offs of the Chinese GuZheng, right? So how can Chinese music be not similar to OTHERS that WE influenced. i find it partciularly offensive to assume Chinese music is somehow related to other music systems espcially since many other "asian" music systems did not exist until Chinese influence spread. Chinese bowed instruments (Erhu二胡, banhu板胡,Gaohu高胡,Gehu革胡,etc) are also used by northern barbarians such as mongolians(their version is called the 马头琴). its sad that you're actually arguing about Chinese music with a person whos written entire Chinese Orchestral scores

FACT: the HuaXia and Dong Yi were hunter/farmer people who adapted to moderately COLD climates, They, especially the HuaXia were extremely war like resulting because cold climates did not yield all the necessary resources which were needed. As late as the Shang Dynasty, Chinese engaged in acts of genocide on people whom they deemed different. i already mentioned this a few posts ago.

*yamn*...I'm not as musically illiterate as you think, since I had to take a class on Asian music for credit. Korean and Japanese music sounds nothing like Chinese music, even though they use instruments from China. You know this. Get some samples of mainland SE Asian music and tell me what you think. The notes are almost exactly the same, and since your familiar with music, you know that this is key. The tunes are basically the building blocks of music that makes music sound Western, Middle Eastern, or Chinese. The conclusion:
1. People to the south adapted the Chinese notation system.
2. Or there was a common notation system that Chinese music sprang out of.
3. Or Chinese music is basically southern Chinese music.



-Actually, the Henan area was sub-tropical 5,000 years ago, and very wet and forested. Climate changed, partly due to over-cultivation.
-Archeology shows that these people shared much in common with the culture immediately south of the Yangtze, who cultivated rice and lived in stilt-houses.
-Linguistically, there were many shared vocabulary dated to pre-historic era. -The Huaxia were not nomads. The Dong Yi were not Tungus people nor were they nomads. Archeology does not support this, and Shangdon was too south for there to be any Tungus people.
-As for warlike and genocide blah blah, I don't know what is your point? You are obsessed with facist ideology, genocide, nazis, and whatnot...Your ideas are bizzare and not based on any scientific evidence...

Japanese music is based on Tang Dynasty Chamber Ensemble music, its one in the same. don't argue with me about music. i uploaded a the EXACT piece in which japanese music is based on, go look. In fact, japanese music retains lots of elements of Tang music that is forgotten

how is Chinese classical music purely southern? the GuZheng and GuQin came from the north and they represent the highest in the classical system. The prototype of HuQin and the modern Banhu, and Jinghu come from the north as well. like i said before, i'm not anti-southern Han, you seem to think i am.

the Chinese system is more harmonically based with a preference for minor third and perfect fifth intervals which is why westerners dubbed it from a melodic view...a pentatonic scale

the notes essentially the same? they're only 12 semi tones and quarter tones in between used in any music so why would it matter if you ran across the same notes. Southeast asian music systems don't use the same scales or harmonic system. Japanese and Korean systems use a melodic version of the Chinese harmonic system in a really primative way because they eliminate quarter tones and melodically, they use no counterpoint whatsoever. inferior music much like southeast asian music

i don't recall vietnamese/austro people having their own 40 piece orchestras like WE Chinese do(we, not including you)

The Chinese Orchestra
bowed string: Erhu, Banhu, Gehu,Gaohu,Bass Gehu, occasionally Jinghu
plucked: GuQin, GuZheng, Pipa, ZhongRuan, DaRuan,SanXian,LiuQin
Wind: Dizi, QuDi,BangDi,Bawu,GaoYin Sheng, ZhongYin Sheng, keyed Sheng,Suona
Percussion: varies among different orchestras

Stop basing your ideas on some hill tribe in SW China. The fact is, you know little, and your over-simplistic view is even worse than how Bush gets everyone confused in the Middle East. You are also dissing Chinese music since it is based on the same scale.



The fact is, no one knows what ancient Chinese music sounded like. The reconstructions based on Japanese music are based on air.

Well, we're not talking about instruments, are we?
Stop this. Middle Eastern music basically splits the Western notes in two, and the results are dratiscally different. For two forms of music to sound almost the same...that is too much coincidence...Some of the southern music can be easily mistaken for Chinese music, even to Chinese ears...That's a coincidence?

Look, all of your arguments seem to be based on preconceptions. Most people in China still think they evolved from Peking Man. It's time to yield to the facts.


Stop being an @$$. I'm northern Chinese, my Hakka genetically "austro" friend.



More than half of these are derived from the Middle East. And many of these instruments have correspondents in SE Asian cultures. There was two ways to reach China...northwest and southeast...

GaoYin Sheng, ZhongYin Sheng, keyed Sheng,: Ironic...Considering that the Sheng can be found in SE Asia and may be even derived from "austro" culture through Chu...
Dizi: same
Suona: Used in SE Asia in the exact same way with almost the exact schema... *yamn* just keep on blabbing

lol the Sheng is 3000 years old and was first founded in Northern China. so what if they are used by austros? European instruments have spread to every corner of the world. so Italian instruments like the violin are non-italian just because oither people use them?

i was talking about the basic theory behind different systems and somehow, you still assume i was only talking about instruments. and what does the middle east have to do with southeast asia? i already explained to you the connection between j@p'/korean music and Chinese influence yet you still assume i'm only talking about instruments.

you quote sentences from me yet talk about completey different things. i talked about semitones and you replied with "we're not talking about instruments", neither was i this is because you don't know anything about music

its also funny how you assume i'm some how ashamed of my mother's side for being Kejia when i'm not, so you try to use it against me, how childish

You are the one who keeps bringing up instruments. Look, certain SE Asian cultures use the same scale as Chinese. Simple to understand? The whole Chinese scale system can be found on the bronze bells of Chu, who under your scheme are none Chinese. As for the sheng being from northern China...please...It's made from bamboo...
Look, the Chinese and "austro" people were close neighbors in the middle China region. It doesn't take a genius to figure out there are prehistoric connections.


The middle eastern instruments either entered through SE Asia or NW Asia. I mention this because you brought out instruments, which really has nothing to do with musical instruments.

LOL what do semitones have to do with specific instruments? semitones can be played on just about any instrument.

same scale as Chinese? i ALREADY MENTIONED that Chinese music is based on a HARMONIC system,do you know what melody and harmony are? you CAN derive a scale from it but this scale and variations of it are used ALL OVER East Asia including japan and korea. The Chinese "scale" is not from bells of Chu, they have found dozens of GuDi(bone flute) in HENAN PROVINCE dating back to 5000 BC, do you know how the intervals on this primitive flute are arranged? BY HARMONIC INTERVALS OF MINOR THIRDS AND PERFECT 5THS

Why are you asking me this? You're the one who brought instruments into this.

blah blah...The point is, certain SE Asian musical traditions sound almost the same as Chinese music. For them to sound the same, they have to use pretty much the same the harmonic system, or whatever...This much I know.


Wasn't that my point? Since there was no overt cultural borrowing by SE Asia from China in history, they must've shared and exchanged prehistorically. The Huaxia and Dongyi were more connected to the people of the Yangtze region then Mongolia. It's very simple. Everyone knows this. Your ideas are weird. We're not Mongols or Tungus people. I'll stop "discussing" with you.


They all share the same system, which again points to the fact that the Huaxia shared a lot of culture with the "austros". Your idea of what is "austro" is also bizzare. There is no such thing as "asutro" race. There are Mongoloid people retaining more or less of pre-Ice Age characteristics and there are Mongoloid people being more mixed with Negritos or less. SE Asians to various degrees are a combination of the two more-or less's. Many SE Asian not affected by Negrito genes look Native American, and hence are more pure Mongoloids since they retain more of the pre-Ice Age features.