From your answers, it is obviously you don't understand the fundamentals of the two things I mentioned above.
Those questions are rhetorical questions. Should you understand the fundamentals of those two things I mentioned,
your answers would not be unintelligent as I had expected. Obviously, your responses had answered my one question about you.
So, this is Korean intelligent huh? I hope you don't represent the rest of your countrymen.

Evil Asian Dude, get the fu-k out of Viet chat if you're here spreading your Kill Ratio Bull$hit.
Since Civilian deaths were included in that Kill Ratio, what would you consider the Kill ratio of the Japanese occupation in Japan?

You question is out of context and insensitive. If Korea was bombed and ravaged like Vietnam

I don't believe that S. Korea would have been where it is today.

Another thing is the other half of Korea is still being isolated while Vietnam is unified. I just hate when people think Vietnam is poor because the Vietnamese is not a capable and intelligent people.

No country had endured war like Vietnam in the modern history, mind you

Don't worry about EAD. Like always, he comes to Viet chat to troll. I mean, just look at his comment you responded to:

Wasn't he the one coming in here first bragging about kill ratios? Not to mention, leaving out the civilians who were included in such delusional claim. He mentions the kill ratio being 1:20, then changed it to 1:25, while some other Koreans say it's 1:15 or 1:17. OMG what is it already? That's percisely the reason why I urged this fool him not to going around teaching other Koreans such undisputed claim. By ignoring my exposure of Korean atrocities in Vietnam, he resort to accusing me of lying about everything.

Also, he ignores how the Koreans sold out when they entered Vietnam to receive freebies from America. Not to mention, killing tens of thousands of innocent lives and raping Vietnamese civilians by doing so. Shame, shame, shame. Anyway, I also hope EAD do not represent the entire Korean race.

What difference you asked?....S. Korea, Japan, and Taiwan are known to be the lapdogs of America. Lapdogs shouldn't be angry when they boast about how great it is to be a lapdog and when someone calls them that, they get angry.

Not to mention S. Korea is a foreign owned country. Known fact.

So basically, 13 Koreans against an entire "Elite North Vietnamese Army Regiment". 2 Koreans and 400+ NVA dead. And here's the real kicker: It broke down into hand-to-hand combat! Lol, I am at a complete loss for words right now. You Koreans sure have a great sense of humor, just make sure the $hit doesn't hit the fan when those Norks/Chinese/Japanese come to your little village for your heads and your sisters, again.

Imjin War diaries are memorial of invasions for Koreans

By John Woodford
News and Information Services

During Korea’s two Imjin Wars against Japanese invaders-in 1592 and 1597-the Korean people endured incompetent leadership, famine, the destruction of their villages and bloody assaults that resulted in a “mountain” of pickled noses and ears of 38,000 Koreans placed on display in Osaka, Japan.

The Imjin invasions and earlier and later ones-chiefly the Mongolian in 1231-70, the Japanese of 1910-45, and the Korean War of 1950-53-have profoundly shaped Korean history and literature, Kichung Kim said in his Jan. 20 lecture “Survival and Abduction: Documentary Literature of the Imjin Wars (1592-98),” but the “most brutal” were the Imjin Wars.

Kim, professor of English and American studies at San Jose State University, told an audience at the International Institute that diaries and memoirs of those who survived in Korea and those abducted to Japan provide the main documentation of Koreans’ efforts at self-definition in the Imjin period. The Korean Studies Program sponsored his lecture.

Disembarking suddenly in Pusan on Korea’s southern coast, 150,000 Japanese troops overran Korea in two months. Meeting little resistance, the Japanese ravaged the civilian population, which also found itself beset by homegrown bandits and by the Ming Chinese army that moved in from the north, ostensibly in assistance to the Koreans.

Within four years, 90 percent of Koreans were uprooted from their homes and forced to wander the countryside in search of meager food and shelter. One of these wanderers, the scholar O Huimun, compiled a nine-year diary that describes the roads lined with corpses, the destruction of farmland, mass rapes, suicides of women who sought to escape capture, and reports of cannibalism in the starved population. Those who survived over the worst four years tried to reoccupy their homes only to find that their own government’s demands for taxes or forced labor made it unwise to do so.

When O Huimun re-entered his home village, only one-tenth of the inhabitants remained and its rice fields were uncultivable. The village’s nearby oak forest, leveled for charcoal, now contained just one tree.

Another prized document is the vivid and eloquent memoir of Korea’s statesman of the time, Yu Songnyong, who left a view “from the top of society,” Kim said. Yu’s goal was to be “brutally honest about the mistakes the Korean leaders made before and during the war.” He charged that the Korean government had been foolish and negligent about Japan’s plans for war, ignoring the reports of its own envoys who reported on Japan’s plans. “The Korean military took half-hearted defensive measures,” Kim said. Rather than training their troops, the top generals merely ordered an inventory of all weapons. The Koreans possessed scarcely any guns, and when warned of the Japanese force’s big edge in cannons and muskets, one commander said dismissively, “They can’t hit their targets every time they shoot, can they?”

“Our leaders were irresponsible and incompetent,” Kim said, adding that he regrets that no records were left by “the ordinary people who suffered the most.” Few could read or write, he said, “and of those, probably none could afford paper and pen. We get incidental glimpses of their experiences, however, from scholars’ and officials’ memoirs.”

Japanese records show that their main objective was plunder. Japan deployed six special units with orders to fetch books, maps and paintings from the more culturally advanced Koreans, craftsmen (especially potters) and their handicrafts, people to be enslaved, precious metals, national treasures, and domestic animals. “Whole villages were swept up,” Kim said. Japanese merchants sold some to Portuguese merchants anchored offshore and took the rest to Japan.”

A few of the more than 100,000 Koreans taken to Japan over the six-year war left memoirs or letters. They reported how Koreans were sold in lots in Nagasaki. An Italian bought five Korean boys “very cheaply” and took them to the Portuguese territory of Goa, where he freed all but the one who had learned Italian the fastest. That boy he took to Florence, Italy, and named Antonio Corea. Corea, who is believed to have been the model for one of Rubens’s paintings, settled in Rome and established an Italian clan.

Support from China’s Ming court and heroic victories at sea led by Yi Sunshin, one of the world’s greatest admirals, foiled both Imjin invasions. Some Japanese stayed in Korea, however, and some Koreans abducted to Japan stayed there after learning that, unless they were rich, liberated Koreans were often mistreated, cheated and re-enslaved by the Korean elite upon their return.

What is the meaning of these documents to Koreans today? Kim called them “an enduring literary memorial that speaks for all Koreans, even the illiterate, who experienced the tragedy of the Imjin War. We owe it to them to listen to what they say and reflect soberly on their words. These documents were preserved by families for 600 years before being published by clan leaders starting about 100 years ago.”

Kim illustrated another lesson the Koreans learned by citing great power diplomacy. The Koreans wanted the Chinese to expel the Japanese completely after the first invasion, but the Chinese were uninterested in doing more than clearing the Japanese from the Chinese-Manchurian borders. They delayed and stalled when Korea asked for further assistance and humiliated the Koreans in many ways. In one telling incident, a Chinese official almost sentenced Korea’s chief minister Yu Songnyong to a flogging on the basis of a Chinese servant’s false report.

“It shows you,” Kim concluded, “that if you don’t want your nation to be kicked around, you’ve got to be strong. All the Korean government of that time did for its people was to demand all the grain they had and force them to work.”

Source: http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/9899/Feb22_99/imjin.htm

Gender, Ideology, and Language of the Korean War of 1592-98: New Dimensions beyond Military History

Organizer: Nam-lin Hur, University of British Columbia

Chair: JaHyun Kim Haboush, Columbia University

Discussant: Boudewijn Walraven, Leiden University

King Sônjo and the Confucian Politics of Contradiction

Nam-lin Hur, University of British Columbia

This paper explores how King Sônjo was able to hold on to his moral authority and power, given the fact that commoners rebelled in many areas and even offered to collaborate with the Japanese invaders.

Source: http://www.aasianst.org/absts/2007abst/Korea/k-197.htm

^ You don't understand jack about warfare.

American commanders often complained that the Koreans, who they did generally praise, were constantly demanding too WAY too much American air support.

ROK troops also had American artillery support.

They sent their best troops and even then the quality of the soldiers diminished as the years went by.

ROK troops had better weaponry than NLF/NVA soldiers.

Take away these enormous advantages and your not gonna get anywhere near 2 to 1, much less your nationalistic/retarded claim of 25-1.

P.S. I could post Korean scholars on the Imjin War that would make you look the an exceptional ingoramous.

P.P.S. A Korean cannot cite Korean sources, but a Vietnamese can, and vice versa. The best thing is to use 3rd party neutral sources.

I was refraining from posting on Imjin and the ROK's role in Vietnam, but these annoying flamers keep coming back...
Note, the scholar Kichung Kim is obviously Korean.

Police Find Swastika Cut Into Acres Of N.J. Cornfield

Back behind the towering corn is a message that can only be seen from the air.

It is one of the most infamous symbols of hate -- a swastika -- cut into acres of cornfields in Washington Township, Mercer County.


A New Jersey State Police helicopter on a routine maintenance mission made the discovery Friday.

The swastika was located off of Hankins Road, near where similar swastikas were found in July 1998 and June 1999.


No arrests were made in the previous cases.

Investigators found that the most recent swastika appeared to have been hand-cut and covered an area of several acres.

"This should be in the past, and we should have learned from our mistakes, and to bring up something that brings back such awful memories, I think, is disgusting," said Joe Pica, whose property is one of many that border the fields.

Monday, neighbors said they hope it was kids who didn't know any better.

"If it's kids and they get caught, I hope that they are made to sit down for three or four days and research the history of the meaning of that symbol. Maybe they'll learn something from it," Pica said.

Neighbor Anthony Carin was stunned that someone would cause this entire furor carving a massive symbol that's only visible from the air.

"There's no point in making something that size in a place that's not even seen," he said.

The case is being investigated by the Washington Township Police Department, the Mercer County Prosecutor's Office, and the New Jersey State Division of Criminal Justice.

SOUTH KOREA: Exposed South Korean Soldiers Massacred Vietnamese during Vietnam War
ASIAN HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION - URGENT APPEAL PROGRAMME

AHRC UA Index: 000224 24 February 2000
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
UA 07/00: WAR CRIMES - civilians massacred

SOUTH KOREA: Exposed South Korean Soldiers Massacred Vietnamese during Vietnam War
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last year, the Associated Press reports exposed that U.S soldiers massacred Korean civilians during the Korean War and the most documented of these killing happen in Nogunri. It is well known that Korean soldiers participated in Vietnam war from 1963 to 1973. Recently, a Korean newspaper exposed that Korean soldiers had massacred innocent vietnamese civilians. The Asian Human Rights Commission supports the initiative of the Peace Committee of Korean House for International Solidarity (KHIS] in this appeal to seek justice for victims of war crimes.

The painful history of Nogunri's victims has been ignored for fifty years, but at last the facts have come to light. Recently it has come to our attention that during the Vietnam War Korean soldiers also conducted massacres of innocent civilians. Testimony of such slaughter of Vietnamese
civilians by Korean soldiers in Vietnam war was given in an article of the Korean weekly magazine Hankyoreh 21, titled "Remember Vietnam's Soul".

Currently, discussion of these massacres has become a prominent issue in the Vietnamese media.

Korean soldiers participated in the Vietnam war from 1963 to 1973. They killed approximately 41,400 of the enemy. However, an unknown number of ordinary Vietnamese people tragically lost their lives as well. The Ministry of Culture and Communication of Vietnam has publicly estimated that the number of innocent victims killed in the provinces like QUANG NGAI, QUANG NAM, and BINH DINH was approximately 5,000 people. It was reported that most Vietnamese people have not forgotten the shock of the massacres yet and the mental anguish of the survivors have had serious and had lasting effects.

The Korean citizens participated in various campaigns on massacres in Vietnam; writing cards to apology through the coordination of KHIS and collecting contributions with Hankyoreh 21 to build schools and hospitals in Vietnam in districts that suffered the most damage. Through these
activities, they have asked Vietnamese pardon of past crimes committed by Korean soldiers.

The Korean public opinion on this issue is shown below:

1. The real facts of the massacre should be publicly revealed 66.3%
2. There is a need to dispatch a fact-finding mission 66.9%
3. The Korean government should make a public apology and provide compensation to Vietnamese victims 77.9%

*source: Hankyoreh survey

Nonetheless,the Korean government has avoided addressing this matter at all. "Nogunri massacre" during the Korean War and "Vietnamese Civilians Massacre" during the Vietnam War are representative cases of the twentieth century in which Korea was at one time a victim, and at another, an oppressor.

RECOMMENDED ACTION:
We are requesting yourself and your organization's support in solidarity to seek justice for victims of massacres in Vietnam. The statement below supports efforts to persuade the Korean government to:

* establish a fact-finding mission
* issue a public apology to the Vietnamese victims of the massacres.

Place your name and Organistion, endorsing the statement below and send it to KHIS. The statemen will be published in the Hankyoreh Newspaper with the list of supporters.

SEND TO:

Korean House for International Solidarity (KHIS)
Fax: 822-3673-5627
E-mail address: <khis21@nownuri.net>
<khis21@hotmail.com>

---------------------------- STATEMENT ------------------------------

To : President Kim Dae jung

We ask that you make an inquiry to establish the facts concerning the "Vietnamese Civilian Massacre" by Korean soldiers and make a public apology for these incidents to the Vietnamese people.

We have heard that an estimated 5,000 Vietnamese civilians were massacred by Korean soldiers in the provinces of QUANG NGAI, QUANG NAM, and BINH DINH during the course of the Vietnam war. Many innocent people including
women, children and the elderly were killed without regard, and the massacres have left deep scars on the memories of the survivors. For this reason we request an official apology from those responsible in the military for ordering the operations and compensation to the innocent victims of the massacres. It is certain that we will not be able to enter
the new millenium with a clear conscience if we don't make an effort to console the grief of the Vietnamese. We must do our best to uncover the truth and prevent tragedies like these fromhappening in the future. Once more, we stress that the true peace will only be accomplished by having the
upright courage to uncover the facts of the case. Even during the passing from one millenium to the next, the truth of these tragic massacres cannot be suppressed.

We urge the Korean government to:

1. Establish the facts of the case. Soldiers who took part in the the war have suggested that first of all, the real facts of the massacre should be revealed. We have agree with this. The Korean government should establish a joint inquiry commission with the Vietnam government.

2. If the recent reports prove to be well-founded, the Korean government should apologize publicly to the Vietnam government and the people by accepting responsibility for the occurrence of the massacres.

3. The Korean government should give recompensation and to the survivors of the massacres.

4. The Korean government should compensate the Korean soldiers who were forced to commit these inhumane acts and have since been suffering from the guilty consciences until now.

5. Please, provide financial support for inquiry into the real events of the massacre.

Your name:
Organization:

Posted on 2000-02-24

Source: http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2000/366/

I already gave out a zillion neutral sources.

No, it was the Koreans who won the war. Heres how it really happened. The japanese invaded a completely unprepared Korea and managed to secure several early victories against the tiny local militia. Then the Korean navy under Yi Sun Shin began a counter attack. He attacked Japanese ships and cut off supply lines. With his victories at sea, the Japanese army no longer had any supplies nor could they transport reinforcements or navigate Korea by ship without being sunk. As the months passed the Korean army was getting larger and larger with more people volunteering while the Japanese army was shrinking day by day. Korea also secured several land victories against the Japanese which demoralized the them even further. The approaching Korean winter, the lack of supplies, no reinforcements and constant attack by the Korean militia forced the Japanese to retreat after losing more then half their men. When Ming China heard news of the Japanese retreating they finally sent in troops to "help" Korea. Prior to that they refused to fight. In fact Korea didnt even need Ming assistance because we already won the war. But I guess help is better then no help.

And one more thing. The Japanese very well could have conquered or at least cause irreversible damage to the Ming dynasty. The Japanese army that invade Korea wasnt the sword wielding samurai that faught the Mongols and won by luck. The Japanese army during the imjin war numbered over two hundred thousand with over 70% of them armed with Portuguese arquebuses(guns) during the war. Considering that the Manchus conquered the Ming some 40 years after the Imjin war I think its very plausible that the Ming too could have potentially fallen to Japanese thanks to their guns had Korea not beaten the Japanese and prevented them from securing a foot hold on the mainland.Even if the Japanese lost they would have caused so much damage to the Ming that one of Chinas neighbors would have had a much easier time conquering the Ming. Thus changing history.

Link: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=129553

sorry if im beating you in your own game

^ the 2:1 kill ratio was hypothetical. Take away all the ROK advantages... Learn how to read.

Insecurity? Please. Look in the mirror.

Do you remember what you said about Imjin? That Korea saved Asia from the Japanese. No. The Chinese saved Korea from the Japanese.

In Vietnam, the US claimed a 2-1 kill ratio in aerial dogfights. The Russians accept this but counter that the N. Vietnamese pilots flying supersonic fly-by-wire Mig-21s had a 2:1 kill ratio over the Americans. N. Vietnam never had any more than 16 Mig-21's at any one time. They had a total of about 250 jets, mostly subsonic hydraulically controlled Mig-17's. Even the American F-4 was better than the Mig-21.

The Americans had a 10+ to 1 kill ratio over Russian, Chinese and S. Korean pilots in the Korean War. But narrowing to jet vs jet, the Americans had a 15 to 1 kill ratio against Russian, Chinese and S. Korean pilots. The Americans were initially using propeller planes.

.

The Korean contribution to the fighting in the Korean war was just a side show.

That war was really fought between the US and Chinese forces. Where were ROK marines when the 250,000 Chinese bull-dozed their way from the Chinese-N. Korean border down to the tip of S. Korea? confused.gif

The same number of Chinese troops using the same tactics were stopped cold in 1979 in Vietnam. Vietnam didn't use air power like the US did in Korea. Without air power, the US would have been outright defeated in Korea. No doubt about it.

In both wars, there were about 250,000 Chinese vs 100,000 oppenents (US, ROK + allies in Korea, and 100,000 2nd rate and local militia in Vietnam, as opposed to regular divisions). Losses were about even in 1979. This is why I said that take away ROK advantages, then their kill ratio advantages would quickly disappear

You're previous chest pounding about Imjin proves you know and understand very little about your own history, but love to lecture others about theirs. It also shows what little you know about warfare.

Long story short... You trash talk to much. A sure sign of insecurity.

You have problems with exaggerating don't you? Another sure sign of and inferiority complex you have towards whites and Japanese which you now project onto others.

Remember this?
Just to let you know, the Chinese were deliberately dragging their feet, that way they would have a weakened Korea, one that posed less of a potential threat but instead be more of a potential victim of their constant hegemony. Read up on Middle Kingdom foreign policy tactics, before you trash talk.
That's not what you said in that "Korean and Vietnamese history, don't close this topic" thread.

Looks like right hand doesn't keep track of the left hand...

Dude, don't talk from both sides of your @ss, it's just not kosher.
Nah. You have fundamental problems with memory, logic and integrity.

I asked for links and evidence, you refused to give them. Why am I not surprised

Ill ask you again, wheres the link for all the bs you mentioned earlier. The air support, better weapons, artillery, commander whining, 2:1 kill ratio blah blah blah. You shouldnt say stuff when you have no evidence to back them up. You change the subject once again by bringing up arieal battles. Those ariel battles consisted of soviet planes vs american planes. Jet vs Jet fighter in which soviet trained pilots fought american pilots. What does this have to do with the ROKs kill ratio or this topic again? Thats right nothing.

What a piss poor comparison. Only 85,000 Chinese infantry men participated in the invasion of Vietnam. The Vietnamese army outnumbered the Chinese(estimates ranging from 100,000-200,000). Not to mention that the Vietnamese army was well equipped and had the environment to its advantage. Ironically despite Vietnam having superior numbers, advantage of enviornment and perhaps even superior weapons it still lost as many men if not more men then the invading Chinese army.

^ Wikipedia scholar.

I mentioned that I posted a zillion sources. Im not even sure if zillion is a number. Zillion only means that I posted a lot of sources which is fact.

The fact that anyone would be so clueless as to take the number zillion seriously, shows some kind of deficiency of the mind.

Thats the best you can say? I guess now your finally admit that you lost this tiny little debate. Do us both a favor and leave this topic.

Yes I did use wikipedia but only those bits and which had citations from credible sites or books. Not the dribble made from Vietnamese nationalists but from professional historians.

1. ^ a b c d Zhang Xiaoming, "China's 1979 War with Vietnam: A Reassessment", China Quarterly, Issue no. 184 (December 2005), pp. 851-874. Zhang writes that: "Existing scholarship tends towards an estimate of as many as 25,000 PLA killed in action and another 37,000 wounded. Recently available Chinese sources categorize the PLA’s losses as 6,900 dead and some 15,000 injured, giving a total of 21,900 casualties from an invasion force of more than 300,000."

10. ^ Chen, Min. (1992). The Strategic Triangle and Regional Conflict: Lessons from the Indochina Wars. Boulder: Lnne Reinner Publications, p. 17-23.

13. ^ Chen, Min. (1992). The Strategic Triangle and Regional Conflict: Lessons from the Indochina Wars. Boulder: Lnne Reinner Publications, p. 17-23.

15. ^ ChinaDefense.com - The Political History of Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979, and the Chinese Concept of Active Defense

Patience is a virtue.

No, it provides a good indicator of how the good NVA actually was.

What are you talking about? The North Koreans got their rear-ends kicked-in repeatedly the Americans.

It was, as in Imjin, the Chinese who came to the rescue.

And the South Koreans got their heads kicked in by the North Koreans, and in this case, the Americans came to the rescue.

Still an exaggeration.

You've got a serious problem if you're going to quote Chinese sources on the "Sino-Vietnamese War."

Where did you get these sources, wikipedia?

Ok, wheres the evidence for this? Or are you making up more trash as usual? Btw you have still yet you give out those links I requested a few posts ago lol.

Imjin War diaries are memorial of invasions for Koreans

By John Woodford
News and Information Services

Kim illustrated another lesson the Koreans learned by citing great power diplomacy. The Koreans wanted the Chinese to expel the Japanese completely after the first invasion, but the Chinese were uninterested in doing more than clearing the Japanese from the Chinese-Manchurian borders. They delayed and stalled when Korea asked for further assistance and humiliated the Koreans in many ways. In one telling incident, a Chinese official almost sentenced Korea’s chief minister Yu Songnyong to a flogging on the basis of a Chinese servant’s false report.

Source: http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/9899/Feb22_99/imjin.htm

You dont even know how to debate properly. You say things out of desperation then refuse to bring up factual data or links and instead opt to change the subject. Quit being a tool and either admit defeat or leave.