Hi all!

I am cuious to have your opinion, do you think that traditional martial arts (chinese, japanese, malay, filipino...) are an important part of the culture and identity of a country?

www.nitien.com

I think it is overblown. Because when outsiiders come in large numbers they tend to be soldiers and as part of their professional development they pick up the martial art and take it back home as part of the culture of where they were.

I think its overblown as well. Martial arts may play a part in a culture but there are many other things that found in a culture that makes it important for their identity. I should add not everyones really into their martial arts (some are impress where as others couldnt care less about it).

I think many martial arts evolved from Yoga in India. Any martial arts tradition in Asia may trace its origin to Yoga, Japan, china etc..

what do u think?

I tend to disagree (not that I dont like you or anything like that).
I think martail arts was created out of neccesity. Some of the martial arts are so vastly different I doubt they have similar origins.

Were there martial arts in the Middle East and early Christian Kingdoms???

I though martial arts seems only to be predominant in Asia, that's why I had believed that martial arts evolved out of the ancient yogic breathing techniques and postures that try to imitate animal poses.

Yes there were. Wrestling and weapon arts were taught to knights in Europe. The Greeks/Romans also had boxing & wrestling.
Theres actually a few sites that has free old European fighting manuals (most of them look like street fighting techniques but there pretty good in my opinion).
http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm (mainly sword fighting manuals)

http://www.hema.freehomepage.com/technical_analysis.htm

http://www.hema.freehomepage.com/FDunarmedsequence1.htm

http://www.hema.freehomepage.com/FDunarmedsequence2.htm

As for the Middle east I dont know about all Middle eastern countries but Iran/Persia and Turkey have wrestling as fighting arts. I'm sure there were also different scholls of sword fighting as well.

There are a few African and South American martial arts as well. Mostly wrestling types of arts. Brazil also has a striking art derived from somewhere in Africa (forget where exactly) called Capoeira.

Martial arts can be found in nearly all societies in one form or another. Even the Eskimo/Inuit had a form of wrestling.
http://gamesmuseum.uwaterloo.ca/VirtualExh...sh/wrestle.html

I have been practicing and privatly researching martial arts for a long time.

I live in East Africa at the moment, I haven't seen any martial arts around here at all...except the asian imports like Taekwando and Tae-bo. When I ask my frens about martial arts in their tradition, they can only refer to trance dances and sacred drummings, so I guess in East Africa, martial arts wasn't a big development nor representative of their cultural traditions.

Maybe it's somethiing to do if u are a pastoralist or agriculturalist society. Nomads probably don't develop martial arts but hunting skills instead. I dunno, I'll be interested to look into this closely if u can gimme some leads as to what are the East Africa traditions in martial arts!

Hey how is it in East Africa Tanawizi? Sounds pretty interesting.
What on earth are you doing there!???

I cant say I know enough about African martial arts (let alone East African martial arts) theres soo little written material on it. I have seen pictures of various African wrestling /wrestlers systems. And a few stick fighting systems (they were using some really long sticks with a penis shape on the end ).

Here's what I have:
Testa (Eritrea)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testa

Dambe (Hausa Boxing) (Nigeria)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dambe_%28Hausa_Boxing%29

Nguni stick fighting (SOuth Africa)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguni_stick_fighting

Rough and Tumble (South Africa)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_and_Tumble


Laamb Wrestling (Senegal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laamb_Wrestling

Nuba fighting (Sudan)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuba_fighting

Evala wrestling (Togo)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evala_wrestling


Heres some articles on african martial arts for you Tanga.
http://ejmas.com/jalt/2006jalt/jcsart_Svinth_0106.html
http://www.warriorpages.com/martialarts/african_arts.htm
http://ejmas.com/jalt/2004jalt/jcsart_green_1104.html

I practice non but I am like Bruce Lee lol

thanks for the links.. i am fascinated to hear that the Nubians in Southern Sudan have martial arts... in fact I think there's a woman from germany (Lisa Riefenstahl - Nazi photographer) who photographed them in a very famous book... let me post some of the pics from the web for u:







here's a webpage that talks more abt the origins of martial arts in ancient Nuba. it has some links with ancient Egypt it seems!
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/nubiansport.html

pictures of wrestling in ancient Nubian art... Egyptian?



btw, these Nuba folks are probably some of the best warriors, and in the past may have been used as slave fighters by the romans or greeks?

Hey thanks Tangawizi!
I've never seen these pictures befor alright (with the exception of the Egyptian or Nubian ones.). I think these Nubians were pretty tough guys. I wouldnt want to mess with them.

For some reason I keep think your Indonesian. Never thought in my thick skull skull you might be from East Africa.

I agree with you on that ,the one who practice muayThai is also practice some kind of sexology and meditate as well. In d old day they would more on Yoga

Yeah aero, Thai yoga massage is another example of how Yoga became localised in Thailand!

@henry, i am from singapore but live here in africa for now.. i know there are nubians who live in the slums here and they are a tight group indeed!!

Yeah I sorta wonder what kind of martial arts that are practiced by Nubians . I'm sure wrestling and stick fighting is there.

What are there religious beliefs Tangawizi? Any weird stuff like animism you've seen?

Have you been training with Colonel Aumnart,bro?(he's one of the last student of kru bua Korat style)...Are you in the military?...I'm curious...

Well, the christian evangelical movement is pretty strong here, but there's alot of syncretism between christian and traditional animist beliefs. There's a number of churches here that defy belief. I think it mirrors the situation in America where u get all kinds of wierd sects coming off the christian main trunk.

Most of the local churches do alot of ddancing and singing rather than martial arts though..

I just thought that this thread oughtta be reenergised:

Martial arts r about fighting. So wherever fighting is an important, ongoing activity, for an extended period of time, some form of martial art would develop.

At first most martial arts would have involved weapons. But then weaponless peasants started learning to protect themselves from armed soldiers. Or soldiers defeated in battle started learning new ways of beating their conquerors after having been disarmed.

Martial arts IS definitely a distinct part of many nations' cultures. But mostly, unlike dance, it remains a niche part, due to its rigorous demands in terms of physical n mental discipline. You can't become a decent martial artist after just few days of practice.

Whereas basically anyone can enjoy dance, cos anyone can shake their hips, strut their stuff n flap their arms without much difficulty. But with martial arts, you need a greater commitment to practice n application, otherwise it's mostly a waste of time.

Humans don't seem to have been programmed with the instinctive skills to fight. Cats instinctively leap, claw n bite at their opponents. Bulls, goats n rams instinctively hoove the ground n ready their head n horns for a good battering. Bantam cockerels circle n taunt one another, n as soon as the fighting starts immediately let fly with their sharply spurred feet.

So humans learn fighting skills by watching animals fighting.

For some reason, or reasons, the most esoteric martial arts seem to have developed mostly in East Asia. A likely explanation being temples n other places of spiritual learning providing the right environment for the development n transmission of martial arts knowledge.

At one stage of time, martial arts in this region went underground, cos kings n warlords feared that accomplished practioners of martial arts could undermine their authority. But then later they realised they also could benefit by having martial artists in their camp.

Oriental martial arts seem to have reached their peaks of excellence in China, Korea n Japan, with their various styles n schools of Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Judo n various mixtures of them, with the countries of South East Asia following at a close second.

Oriental martial arts normally utilise a blend of dance, breath control, gymnastics, wrestling, fistboxing, kickboxing n headbutting in their repertoire. The use of the elbows, the knees n the head as 'trained' weapons is also common. After all, you can't afford to be choosy or tentative in a fight. You've gotta be decisive as well as make do with whatever you've got at your disposal anytime you're forced into action.

Scholars believe that the earliest forms of martial arts were brought by Indian monks going east to preach Hinduism n Buddhism. Their first students were thus the SEAns. That gave birth to various styles of Burmese n Thai kickboxing n Malay n Indonesian silat, as well as stickfighting.

NEA was their final destination n provided their last students. Eventually, it was in NEA, in China, Korea n Japan that oriental martial arts rose to their highest standards of excellence, with practioners learning the techniques of breaking bricks with their heads, fists n feet, n paralysing or even killing someone with just the touch of a finger.

Generally i agree but dancing is not as simple as you think. Anybody can get up on the dance floor and shake their "booty" just like anybody can throw a punch but like martial arts learning to dance properly can take years of dedicated learning, and the fitness required to dance is just as important as martial arts. Personally I think martial arts and dancing are very similar both require balance, dextarity and good core strength. One of the best swing dancers in melbourne is also one of Australias best Tai Chi exponents, one helps the other.

I agree with you, swingy. Dance and martial art are very similar to each other, they require rigid training and discipline. That's why we can find martial arts influence on traditional dances and vice versa, because they might have the same root.

Yeah, I heard the source of martial arts came from Yoga in India.

I don't know if that is true that one can kill with just a touch of a finger, with the qi or 'prana' built up in the body... i think that's bullcrap... if that were possible, why do we even need weapons??

I think the concept of chi or chakra comes from india but martial arts? no. Because every culture has some sort of self defense martial art. Even the French and israelis have their own fighting styles

A good exponent can make your arm go limp by pressing your 'nadi' just at the exact point. It's used often by martial artists to disarm an armed robber. A friend of mine once did that to save his own life.

An advanced blackbelter can send someone unconscious within seconds by pressing the right pressure points, The judokas r great at that. Karatekas n Tae Kwon Do kas (excuse the term) can do it too. I don't know about the Pesilat. I wasn't in it long enough to speak on it.

If you can make someone unsconscious for a few seconds, n then make him stop breathing as well, you r now ready to kill someone. Without needing to get into a great big fight.

right on dream, if u squeeze the guys balls long enough, surely that guy pengsan punye, dunno about females though...

Judo doesn't have pressure points, because pressure points are bullshido.

Oh yes they do.
In the Kadokan official book on Judo written by Jigoro Kano they show a picture of various pressure points of the body. Plus judo practitioners also are taught the art of Kappo which does involve some pressure points as well.


The developing of unarmed martial arts was in part due to the fact a soldier can lose his weopon in battle.
The other part being that in certain times & regions of the world it was prohibited for civilians to carry weopons.
So unarmed fighting was developed as a result of these.




Actually I think you meant chi and prana. (chakra is the energy plexus of the body. It means "wheel" in Sanskrit).



You mean marma not nadi. Nadi is the meridian system.


It is Not often use. Its generally consider advance training. (although some schools use some general pressure points near the beginning by less experience students though).
Pressure points are very complicated arts.
You have to study medicine systems like Ayurveda or TCM to have a full understanding.


They usually dont teach you pressure points until you are at least a 5th degree black belt. And usuallly its basic points.
As said earlier its a very advance art. Its very difficult in many cases to pull off . You need to be trained properly.
Most schools use about 108 points although there are 365 well known points (there are more points but its generally too obscure and complex & generally ignore).


Silat systems generally dont know too much about them. Although they use other things like trance possession (with spirits or gods etc) and occult magic for fighting.



The objective of these pressure point systems is mainly to knock your opponent unconcious or for delayed death (although creating numbness or severe pain in a limb is used as well).
There are far easier methods to use to kill someone like eg. iron palm.


(I've been in martial arts for a long time. I do have knowledge in this field if someone wants to know more).

Yeah, i have seen some fighting done in Bali when the guys are deep in trance, they try to kill each other with kris but it won't pierce thru their skins... how come that happens?

Umm No.

The way you describe pressure points is by knocking someone unconscience by pressure points. If anything, Judo only has Kuatsu which is used to revive people from things such as being choked out.

Black belts in Judo don't use pressure points for attacks and today probably will never use to 'revive, period.

Also.. are you referring to the book 'Complete Kano Jiu Jitsu', because that is not written by Sensei Kano, in fact he was upset that the authors used his name for the book.

Could be a bulshido demo?

Not for knocking people out but for the targets used in judo's atemi. Kano was quite familar with the targets points in judo. Not that they were anything sophisticated or anything; they were quite basic.

Ever heard of that story where judo sensei found out one of his students was attacking people with judo and went to investigate under a disguise and let the student throw him. After being thrown the teacher pointed out a streak of grease that he had aplly when being thrown & taught the student a lesson that he could have killed the student with atemi (this was according to the judo book).

"The way you describe pressure points is by knocking someone unconscience by pressure points."
I didnt mean to imply for judo (for knocking someone unconcious). Just mainly for arts like karate, TKD, etc.


Mainly a few high level blacks belts are taught this (perhaps not anymore).
Its very basic stuff. You porbably get more value from karate than judo.

The stuff on Kosen is quite interesting as well.


Its pretty much been replaced by CPR.
Traditional Kappo does resemble shiatsu in some aspects. Some of the rudimentry accupressure points were used. eg bottom of feet, kidney point ....




I am refering to "Kodokan Judo" by Jigoro Kano. It was not written by him but was writen by Kano's former students but this is way after his death. It was edited under the supervision of the Kodokan Editorial Comittee. The book mostly comprised of old photogrpahs of Jigoro Kano demonstrating the various Judo techniques. Essentially the offical kodokan judo techniques were listed in the book. Its consider the main official judo book.

A good book to also check out is "Canon of Judo" by Mifune, Kyuzo.

Providing if you believe in the metaphysical aspects of it. (Knowing you here. I presume you are a spiritual person.)
I would say its the spirits in thier body that protects them.

The kriss is also a very spiritual weopon as well. As you probably already know the significance of it.

I was only in martial arts for a several years, mainly for fun as well as fitness, besides the self-defence aspect of course. There was also the discipline part, which I think is always great for a young man.

For me, it ain't worth spending a lifetime learning something if you're really gonna need it for a short few minutes of your life. But it's good to have tried it n learned the most basic principles.

I dabbled for various periods in silat, stick fighting, n shotokan n budokan karate, before finally discovering tae kwon do, which I then realised to be the best n most suitable for me.

I was considering kung fu n Muay Thai too, but somehow didn't get around to doing them. Where I come from Muay Thai would've been easy to access. Over there, it's just called 'boxing' or sometimes 'buah spelek". A close relative of mine was a Muay Thai teacher.

I can't say how far one should go along with the spiritual/metaphysical stuff of it, but if you ever get cornered or get your path blocked by some mean-looking toughie armed with a sharp knife one dark night, would you trust some imaginary, invisible spirit/force to save your life? I doubt if I would.

I would rather trust just my elbows, feet, legs n head. To run, to smooth-talk, or to fight. Especially when facing a thug who doesn't look n move like he's got martial arts experience.

It's always back to the fight or flight option. Only that with martial arts experience you've got that extra bit of confidence, skill n spontaneous response. Which may turn out to be just enough to save your life.

On the other hand, though, I've read about n also seen martial arts masters perfom incredible stunts like bend sharp-looking swords with just their front neck muscles.

^ What if u meet a naked pontianak??? won't u need your metaphysical spirit/force to keep your eagerness down???? rofl!!

In that case, why would I wanna keep my eagerness down? I'd rather use my metaphysical spirit/force to keep it up as long as it can stay up. The longer the better. All night if possible.

damn, u brave man. hope u run into a pontianak tonite!!!

Well, I like to take chances.

Mmmm, lemme think. Maybe I'll ask her/it if she/it could transform herself/itself into you. He he he.

lol noob

it is possible to kill someone with 1 blow.
reason for weapons is kinda obvious, sword/gun beats hand to hand combat.

touch of a finger is probably possible aswell if you can pierce your finger trough someone's troath or eyeball.
And pressure points do exist so it is possible there is a spot where you can kill someone with the right amount of pressure but doesn't seem really practical.

Hell no! Any self respecting men would simply ..... run away lahhhhh! No matter how strong your metaphysical spirit BS you have, ain't gonna do jack to stop a Ponti ....

Better still, if one brave enough, bring along a hammer & a long sharp nail. Upon encountering a Ponti, nailed her at the back of her neck with that nail. She'll magically appear as beautiful, clueless woman ... then you can take her & nail her (uhhhh, figuratively speaking, of course) at your HDB flat.

How wd u know that a nail and hammer would turn her into a clueless woman??

Ya don't know? Any woman is guaranteed to turn clueless n foggy if ya nail her n hammer her long enough.

Clueless, foggy, screamin n groanin with pleasure n ecstasy.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

That is vintage Dreamhunter. You just made my day, mate.

Keep up the good work, dude.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Repressed by religion? It's funny how muslim blokes behave impeccably with other muslim girls but act really horny the moment they have the chance.

Oh boy how far has this thread derail from the original topic.

More like repressed by the morality police pretending to be enforcers of the faith, n the false environment created by that.

You think Malay girls r that impeccable huh? You should try joining in with them while they are at it, doing one of their sorority (read: girly) stuff. You know, those 'free for all' gossip shops that they get into every once in a while.

They'd make the hardiest Chinese girl blush in embarrassment.

You've got to give it to Dreamy. Thread shredder, fender bender, agitator, riot starter, agent provocateur, flame thrower. You name it, he's in it.

Yeah, these guys are talking of "martial arts" of a different order now...

Guess one could still derive tremendous benefits from one's skills in breath control, n transmission n regulation of chi n prana.

N also the flexibility. Like, just imagine the kind of things you could do with that.

Isn't it wrong for muslims to believe in chi or prana ?? I mean it's pre-islamic concepts that border on satanic worship in islamic lexicon, isn't it??

tangawizi said

Islam has never been monolithic and different groups have their own customs!
Other than Arab, Turk, Persian, Baluchi, you have various Malaysian, Indonesian and Pilipino ethnic groups who are Muslim and they practice their various martial system. You have silat, kali, kuntao and others and they have their own energy names similar to chi or prana!

Many time, in the presence of other groups, they do not talk about those things because they may be seen as close to jinn (modern descriptive of genie per the Western illusion) and therfore dangerous!

So true... *blush*


I don't think so... Islamic medicine had its own similar concepts to chi/prana in medieval times.