Reading this article: Rais Yatim Said



i wonder what is the official definitions of these term written on malaysian textbook:
Nusantara ?
Budaya Nusantara ?
Alam Melayu ?

why i am asking this? because of this guy (Rais Yatim) always gave wrong information to his people (malaysian) like what he said about wayang as a sriwijaya culture where sriwijaya is hindusm kingdom and wayang are played at palembang and batavia. Its totally wrong guys, Sriwijaya is budism kingdom and people at palembang and batavia don't have wayang culture. I don't know about singapore, are the people at singapore play wayang?

Malay is "political" construct in Malaysia ...... Outside of Malaysia the concept of Malay has very little cache...
Unfortunately, most of decision makers in malaysia is so cocooned in the malaysian milieu as to realize this..... To be the centre of "Malay World" and "Lordship of Malay"..
Hahahaha .. So, you have to "ignore" and "forgive" Rais Yatim and Tengku Adnan for all of their "idiot" comments and opinions...

We cannot used Nusantara word since it Javanese word....

To be a honest man lah ......

Indonesian POV always think Nusantara = Indonesia.......
Nusantara is the ancient name of Indonesian Archipelago according to Majapahit teritory concept.

Under the Javanese Kingdoms, the term Nusantara was the widest of the three terms used to describe the different depths and spheres of influence of the kings (rajas).
Majapahit's territories were roughly divided into three types:

1. Negara Agung (lit. "noble land") was used to describe the region around the Majapahit capital city (now Trowulan area) under the king direct influence.

2. Mancanegara was used to describe those areas where the culture was similar to Javanese culture, but was outside the kings' direct control. This generally included the islands of Madura, Bali and possibly Lampung and Palembang. This area were directly administrated by officials or nobles (princes) appointed by the king (in this sense Majapahit King already considered as the emperor). Paramesvara the founder of malacca, according to Javanese belief was a Javanese prince appointed by Majapahit king to rule Palembang area, the former capital of Srivijaya. But when Paramesvara tried to revolt and deny Majapahit suzerainity, and claim to be the prince of Srivijaya. This action draw Majapahit punitive action that sacked Palembang for the second time, causing Paramesvara to flee to Temasek (Singapore), then later to Malacca.

3. Nusantara was the area outside of direct Javanese influence, but which was still claimed as colonies, and where the local rulers still had to pay some sort of ceremonial tribute to the Javanese kings. This outer dependencies which enjoyed substantial internal autonomy, Majapahit's direct administration did not extend beyond east Java and Bali (and probably include Lampung and Palembang) but chalenges to Majapahit's claim to overlordship in outer islands may drew forceful responses.

Then the later notions identify the whole archipelagic realms as Nusantara.

Oh yeah Majapahit also recognize neighboring countries which were categorized as Mitreka Satata. In geopolitic hierarchy considered as equals of Majapahit.
"Syangkayodhyapura (Ayutthaya of Siam) kimutang Dharmmanagari Marutma mwang ring Rajapura nguniweh Singhanagari ri Campa (Champa) Kambojanyat (Cambodia) i Yawana (Burma) mitreka satata"

Those neighboring countries are categorized as Mitreka Satata or in Bahasa Indonesia (Mitra satu Tata, Partner in common arrangement/system) or simply called ally or friendly countries (not always friendly, especially Siam who later contested Majapahit overlordship over Malay Peninsula).



This is Nusantara archipelago in XIV century according to Nagarakertagama.

You must be a person who believe that Javanese was only available race in Nusantara and Indonesian was the center of the world.

I think Malay Kingdom pay some ceremonial tribute to Majapahit in order to get some help in war with Ayuddhya but Majapahit never want to fight with Ayuddhya.

That is your opinion .... I didn't say like that ...

I think this thread had been gone away from the title above. So are there any malaysian dare to describe what is the official definition of below term based on malaysian textbook:
Nusantara ?
Budaya Nusantara ?
Alam Melayu ?

Or it is prohibited for malaysian to talk about this term?

^We don't have any text book. Sorry to disappointed you.... Maybe you can used Indonesian textbook instead...

very sad indeed 'huh...
knowing that all terminology about "the mighty malay race"
were stolen from Javanese vocabularies

of course..
you cannot explain the terms
'coz it's not part of your culture

the terms already written in Negarakertagama
long before malay as race was introduced
by your master "british" to classified certain orang in peninsula
who are lazy and not creative at all

you are just orang malay
and there's no malay as race
it's only in your wet dream, honey

and the sad part is :
you built the petronas tower
just to show that you have "monument"
like your neighbours

ha ha... just my 2 ringgit...

lol......
Nobody said that Malay were mighty race....
You delusions or what ????
Seems you're so proud of your Negarakertagama which only survive in just one piece... By Dutch ??? Wo like to write a book too ???
Javanese loaned words from Sanskrit as much as she can get but you still moaning about Malay loaned some words from Javanese ??? Oh i forget that Javanese was descendant of Chola...
I just didn't want to explain that words because you can find it all over the net... It not worthed at all to explain it to him...
And we built Petronas Tower not to show to Indonesians people... We built it because of our inspirations to become develop country while our neighbours still dreaming about their so glorious past...
I agree that its British that introduced Malays words to the world... But everybody used it know ??? WTF
British told everybody that Malay were lazy because we don't want to follow and being slave by them... Unfortunately history being written by winning team...

and how about "ketuanan melayu"?
it's a real implementation of the "Malay Mighty Race" policy!



you're right,
negarakertagama is an OFFICIAL WRITTEN SOURCE
from Majapahit Palace about majapahit herself

but it doesnt mean, we only stick about the majapahit information on that book!
the information about majapahit also mentioned in :

1. Hikayat Raja Pasai - on how majapahit army destroy the Kindom of Pasai wrote by Pasai People
2. Kidung Sudayana - about the Bubat War between Sunda King and Majapahit Army wrote by Balinese
3. The Brunei Annals - "Bermula pada zaman Awang Alak Betatar menjadi raja di dalam Brunei, lagi kafir di dalam Brunei, dan pada masa itu ditakluk oleh Betara Majapahit dan Gajah Mada, dan menghantarkan upeti pada tiap-tiap tahun ke Majapahit …" (Amin Sweeney, 1968:51).
4. The Malay Annals - of course and no doubt
5. The legend of Minangkabau - the story of "asal-usul Minangkabau"
6. Babad Tanah Jawa
7. Babad Tanah Cirebon
8. Serat Centhini

and remember! a lot of legends throughout Nusantara that inform about Majapahit presence in their teritories



please, show me the source that Javanese was descendent of Chola... if it's true, malay also descendent of Chola too since 75% Malay in Malaysia was Javanese descendent

The truth is, just like Betong said, Malaysians have no idea what the definition of "Nusantara" is because it's a Javanese term.

I don't like the thought that most Malaysians are Javanese If they are, they should speak a completely different language and developed writing systems of their own (when in fact peninsular Malays speak Malay language and have no writing system of their own).

Just like I don't like the idea that the Javanese are descendants of Chola. Where did you get this, Betong? Do you have any prove aside from your hunch? Have you even have the textbook or research? Have you been examining the genes of Javanese royal family? Because I don't see any resemblances between His Majesty SSHB and Indian people

^^ the truth : mahathir mohammad is chola (read : india) descendent.

i'm an Indonesian extract. so are most of my fellow Singaporean malay friends..

My sugestions to Betong:

Please read more books and study more, being smart and well informed will not harm you...., except you were afraid it will harm your mint-condition-seldomly used-born embedded harddrive. Please do it before you make any "doubtful" (its my way to avoid saying 'stupid') comments...

cheers.....



wtf (this statement worth 5 "kancut" in rating)
But yes we have Coca Chola here in Java.... could it be the trace of Chola legacy in Java....? fascinating.....




Previously Malay kingdom pay ceremonial tribute because, if fail to do so, Majapahit navy dudes will bully them..... Yeah strangely politic can be a lot like schoolkid's rules..... At its first four or five monarch, Majapahit is the big kid in the block, and such a bully if you know what I mean....
Later Majapahit don't fight Ayutthaya for contest over Malay peninsula overlordship, and let Siamese encroachment over peninsula and let Malacca grow into regional trade hub, because Majapahit is weakening by internal conflict of royalties and further decayed.


Like I said before, in Majapahit era, Javanese do believe in this sort of "ethnocentric" concept, though they also acknowledge the past greatness of Srivijaya and Melayu Jambi kingdom. Ancient Javanese believe their King, the capital city, and Java, serve as the center of Great Mandala swept over Southeast Asian Archipelago. I believe this Java-centric concept irritates you who seems rather "hate" anything Javanese. That's Oke.... if you feel funny about Javanese spiritualistic, go ahead laugh, it's your right to think the way you like.




Wrooong.... Negarakertagama survived thanks to Majapahit Hindus artisans who fled to Bali, after Java fell under Javanese Islamic Sultanates, later thanks to Balinese Hindus who preserve all the lontar books from the past. If they not do any preservation, this documents will lost in history. Then the document was discovered in Lombok in 1896 by J. L. A. Brandes, a Dutch philologist, and translated by a generation of Dutch scholars.

But at least you're right about one thing, we are proud about Nagarakertagama....



Who moaned with Javanese origin loanword in Malay...? loan all words you want, by doing so you just proven and acknowledge the richness of Javanese terminology and concept. But at least do it properly, with correct original meaning and concept, not just shalowly using a certain word without knowing the original meanings and the concept.

But you got one point right: Javanese do borrowed heavily Sanskirt origin words..... together with preserving our pre-Islamic legacy and tradition, and we not ashamed of that, or even tried to bury our Hindu or any "invidel" non Islamic heritage for the sake of "religious purity". Although we are now muslims, we are mostly not a puritant extreemist.



Wow.. actually you too can do a little sarcasm..... good.... fascinating....

Btw Malaysian inspiration to be noticed and set mark in the global world and to be a developed prosperous country is indeed admirable.
My fellow Indonesians, instead of b!tching, bashing, and arguing with Malaysian in the net, over the song, culture etc.
Itu enggak ada gunanya..... Unless probably just to entertain your aggresive side.... or sharpening your claws.....
Or if you need to do so, please do it with dignity, present your argument in smart and elegant way.

Ambil hikmahnya, petik teladannya, jadikan manfaat untuk kebaikan diri kita sendiri.
We should also inspired by them too, by their deeds and achievements.
"Masak Malaysia aja bisa (boleh), Indonesia enggak bisa...? amit-amit gengsi dong ah...!"

Maybe we can use "Engkau Laksana Bulan" song by P Ramlee for Indonesian tourism promotion,
Oh don't forget, since that song is already popular in Indonesia back in 60's and 70's, we didn't have to acknowledge the author of the song, Do not oblige to credit P Ramlee, since it's also considered Indonesian Song.... (However I don't believe Indonesian tourism promotion will sunk this low...)
Later..., I want to see how will you react to your own medicine....

PS: please understand and forgive my natural tendency to be sarcastic, it's embedded in my harddrive.

sorry to bump this thread, since this thread is interseting and it'll be shame if this thread just drown...
maybe this thread should go 'malaysia serious chat' forum.

we are still looking the answer for the question , is there any malaysian willing to answer the question?

Moving to Serious Chat.
Keep the topic constructive though.

Hahahaha... Too much for me to answer that... Okey I retract back my comment about Javanese from Chola

I wonder why there are no malaysian dare to answer this question?
Are talking about political construction being prohibited by malaysian government? It was happen to us in Indonesia, but now we are free to discuss whether current political construction still acceptable or not.
Saying that no written definition of very important terms for a country would be sound unacceptable since a country should have basic political construction.

Since there are no malaysia dare to describe the terms, i try to use literacy from internet.
Some of sources i found are:

1. Malaysian definitions:
a. Malay Race
b. Ketuanan Melayu
c. Bumiputra
d. Social Contract law in Malaysia
e. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nusantara <-- Malay world
f. Constitution of Malaysia



2. Indonesian definitions:
a. Malay Ethnic Group

3. Article regarding the items:
a. Malay is not a race
a.1 The Filipino Race
a.2 No Malay Race
a.3 Malays are not a race
b. Malaysian minister on rasa sayang
c. Is there really a race called 'Malays'?

Because they already know the answers, so don't waste your time.

1. Nusantara is a Javanese term, got nothing to do with Malay.
2. Malay is a mere ethnicity, not a race.
3. What they have mistaken for "Malay race" is actually a large family of Austronesian race, which span from Taiwan to the pacific islands.

Seriously you wanna know what that means in Malaysia. I just can give you some of that definations but not the official one.

Nusantara = We refer to whole Malay Archipelago. Of course it may differ from Indonesian defination.
Budaya Nusantara = Culture from Malay Archipelago
Alam Melayu = I think its same as Malay Archipelago.

Thanks before, I am really appreciate your answer.
And then can you describe what is the relation between nusantara, malay race and the right of malaysia to use the culture from nusantara?

Thanks to you too.
According to my logic, since Malaysia claim that we belong to Nusantara too, and as a member of Nusantara, we certainly have the right to use culture from Nusantara.

Nusantara, generally speaking, is known in Malaysia to describe 'Kepulauan Melayu', or Malay Archipelago which included Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei, Southern Thailand & Philippines isles.

Because of geographical nature & similarity in cultures within Nusantara, the assimilation of cultures, folk-songs, folkdance & other traditions were transplanted when a major / minor migration occurs between ethnic groups within Nusantara.

For example, the Visayas of Sabah & Sarawak (Malaysia) share soem similarities with those in Brunei & South Philippines, or Javanese, Minangs, Mandailings & Bugisnese traits amongst Malaysians Malays ancestors that migrated hundreds of years ago to Malay Peninsular from Indonesia's isles.

Is it means that malaysia have the rights to use the culture from indonesia, bruney, southern thailand and philipines islands?

We're smack dab in the epicentre of the Nusantara, where the infusion of other cultures are almost complete as result of hundreds of years assimilating various Nusantara ethnic cultures. Thus, we also share the same cultural legacy with other country in Nusantara region.

This means, the similarity between Malaysian, Indonesian, Brunei, South Thai & Phippines cultures allows each nations to develop distinctive yet similar folk songs, folk dances, traditions etc that uniquely within their national identities.

yeah go go protoculture

Speaking about your "generalist concept", are you think also that the people of china and midle east have the rights to use culture from all asia? Since those people who are the center of Asia and influenced all Asian culture. And i think they are more "trully asia" then malaysia.


How similar and unique it is?


What is the relation between your epicentre concept with :
1. "tuan melayu"
2. "malay race", and
3. Bumiputra concept
??

It's really funny how some Malaysians accuse Indonesians of thinking ourselves as the center of the world when we never claim anything like that both in real life nor official statement, when it is Malaysians who seems to think that way.

Here's something I quote from Ministry of Malaysian Culture, Art and and Heritage:
"...prinsip yang ditetapkan oleh Kerajaan sebagai Dasar Kebudayaan Kebangsaan iaitu: (i) Berteraskan kepada Kebudayaan Rakyat Asal Rantau ini yang merangkumi kawasan Malaysia, Indonesia,Filipina, Singapura, Brunei, Thailand dan Kampuchea serta Kepulauan Selatan Pasifik (Polynesia, Melanesia dan Oceania) sehingga Malagasi adalah merupakan bahagian utama dari kawasan tamadun atau budaya Melayu. Rantau ini merupakan pusat pemancaran, pengembangan dan warisan Kebudayaan Melayu sejak zaman berzaman dan ditandai pula oleh kegemilangan dan keagungan tamadun Melayu yang berpusat di Melaka yang menggunakan Bahasa Melayu sebagai bahasa perhubungan antarabangsa (linguafranca). Kebudayaan serantau ini digambarkan oleh persamaan-persamaan di bidang bahasa yang berasaskan keluarga bahasa Melayu - Austronesia, kedudukan geografi, pengalaman sejarah, kekayaan alam, kesenian dan nilai-nilai keperibadiannya. Budaya Melayu pada hari ini merupakan cara hidup, lambang identiti dan asas ukuran keperibadian kepada lebih 200 juta umat manusia yang menuturkan satu rumpun bahasa yang sama. Dengan yang demikian, kebudayaan rakyat asal rantau ini dalam pengertian sempit atau luasnya kebudayaan Melayu telah dijadikan teras kepada Kebudayaan Kebangsaan."

Hilarious. So Malaysian government actually based their claim on what is Malaysian culture as all of those included in Austronesian realm (from Kampuchea and Thailand in the west, Philippines in the north and pacific islands in the south), because they thought that this realm is a part of the glorious Malay civilization which has it central core in Malacca.

What a laugh! There is no prove that the peninsula Malays were the ones who spread the Malay culture, it was Srivijayan (Sumatran Malay). There would be a lot people and countries would feel offended by this statement, as it claimed that Malacca was the center of Austronesian realm. When was it exactly Malaccan got a hold over Cambodia, the Philippines, Indonesia and Pacific islands? Such deluded claim... While the Thais fondly adopt our Javanese literature, the Philippines volunteered searching for their Srivijayan root, and the Cambodians claimed the first Khmer king spent his earlier days in Java, I don't think they would be very happy to know that Malaysians think of them as satellite cultures of the so-called "grandiose Malay culture with its core in Malacca".

In China alone, middle eastern (specifically Turkic / Persian) are evidently found with Muslim Chinese (aka Hui ethnicity) & also Muslim minorities (eg, Uyghur) after hundreds of years of cultural & religious assimilation.

For eg., batik art ... this traditional craft is found in Malaysia, Thailand, Brunei, Indonesia, Philippines & as far away as India itself. However, each nation retain their distinctive & unique batik art, so much so regards batik as their national cultures.

Please do your research.

For example, in Malaysia, we've a sizable Malay-Javanese community in the Johore state, who had practiced Kuda Kepang dance. This dance, originated in the island of Java, was practiced & brought to Malay Peninsular ever since 1500s, when Javanese men were hired as mercenaries under Malacca Sultanate, & later migration of Javanese people to the southern part of Peninsular Malaysia for the past 400 years onwards, bringing along their culture & assimilated it with local Johorean Malays.

This in turn has led to Kuda Kepang to be adapted & localised. However, the dance itself has evolved due to assimilation into Malay Johorean culture, so a few distict differences can be found, for eg., the Malaysian version dispensed with the shamanic elements in the dance such as the mantras etc.

That is out of the topic at hand.

Nope. Read between the lines ... there's no mention of Malacca.

Malaysia inherited tons of Nusantara cultures thanks to history, where movement of specific Nusantara ethnic peoples influences the Malay Peninsular & even the Malaysian Borneo region. Bordered with every major Nusantara nations, courtesy to previous Hindu / Buddhist empires, followed by Islamic Sultanates Kingdoms & later colonialists regimes in times past, the region developed shared cultures & adapated, localised 'em into its own unique identitiy, yet similar in many ways.

====================== PART 1 ======================

Speaking about your "generalist concept", are you think also that the people of china and midle east have the rights to use culture from all asia? Since those people who are the center of Asia and influenced all Asian culture. And i think they are more "trully asia" then malaysia.

Well, i try to made the same analogy from your statement of "epicentre of the Nusantara". BTW does assimilation process throwing the identities of cultural products?

====================== PART 2 ======================

How similar and unique it is?

Well, its nice to know there are malaysian who realized the origin and history of a cultural product. BTW is it ethically to take patent of a cultural product (ex: kuda kepang) using "kuda kepang" although there are some version of "kuda kepang"?
We, indonesian people, are very respect to the history and origin of a cultural product. Thats why we call cultural product using the region where it is developed. Ex: Batik pekalongan, batik jepara, coto makassar, pempek palembang, songket palembang, songket padang, and many-many cultural products i can't write one by one. For other cultural product which is developed at specific location we just called the name but we always write the origin at our head. Ex: "rasa sayange" from maluku, "jali-jali" from betawi, joger from bali, koteka from papua, etc.

====================== PART 3 ======================

What is the relation between your epicentre concept with :
1. "tuan melayu"
2. "malay race", and
3. Bumiputra concept

Hmm... i read many malaysian article, and it seems there are big relation between malaysian "epicentre" concept with those three terms. Btw what is the definition of those term ?
====================== PART 4 ======================



Well i think you cannot changed the definition of Nusantara without looking the historical side and its original definition of Nusantara. Nusantara originally belongs to an ancient kingdom of Indonesia (Majapahit). These concept were introduced by a prime minister of Majapahit, Gajah Mada, who sworn to conquered all neighbor region called Nusantara, these area later would become the vassal area of Majapahit. Majapahit is a nations and not many nations.
Majapahit is the great-great grandfather of Indonesia, and as the heir of Majapahit we have absolute rights of Nusantara term.

The question is when malaysia know the term of Nusantara?
What is the legation from malaysia to use "nusantara" terminology?

I don't think I read it wrong.

"This area is a center of the development and heritage of the Malay culture since centuries ago and marked by the glory of Malay civilization which was centered in Malacca which used Malay language as lingua franca."

That's the very reason I came up with my nickname
To honor my ancestors.....

Btw did you ever learn the certain chapter of Geography class back on Junior High...?
It's called "Wawasan Nusantara".

Basicly its explain the geopolitical concept of "Wawasan Nusantara" that Indonesia is the archipelagic nation.
If we follow the continental concept of maritime boundary, which only bestowed 12 nautical miles from shorelines as territorial waters, there will be international waters between Indonesian islands. The "no man's sea" area prone to smuglers, also might be used as warship base to launch invasions. So we adapt the archipelagic nation concept of "Wawasan Nusantara" and connected outer point of "string of islands" that build our archipelago, and claim the sea within our archipelago as Indonesian territorial waters.
The concept also defined sea not as separating entity, but as a unifying entity for archipelago as "the Maritime Continent". Thus "Wawasan Nusantara" concept was coined by Indonesian Goverment as legal geopolitical claim over seas within its outer islands, also defined Indonesian archipelago as unified whole entity.

Majapahit do look good on the map. But issit too much to claim that Majapahit was great-great grandfather of Indonesia. How about Srivijaya ??? Or Bashkara Kingdom of Banjar ??? j/k
Luckily you guys definations of Indonesia-Majapahit didn't include Malaysia too.

Hahaha, you are right Batang. Not all of Indonesians can relate to Majapahit, but we do aware of its glory and proud of it. You can say that Majapahit is one of our grandfather (or grandmother, considering genuine Austronesian culture stressed on feminine figure ), just like in one big happy family, you have a lot of grandparents. So Majapahit was our grandparent from our Mother's side, and Srivijaya was our grandparent of our Father's side, and so on....

Is there any nation in the world patented a shared cultural heritage & trademarked it as their own? Hmmmm .....

Unfortunately, it got nothing to do with the topic at hand. If I am to address the issue, it will open a whole can of worms that can derailed this thread.

Correction. Majapahit was a nation & not many nations.

Through Javanese people migration to Malay Peninsular since 500 years ago & onward, the adaptation & localisation to terms such as Nusantara into Bahasa Malaysia language is inevitable.

^That would be your country Malaysia. Your country is trying to claim patent on our "shared" heritage such as sate, batik and many else. Very funny, what's next? USA claiming the lion dance just because there are a lot of Chinese Americans?

edit - double post

well thanks for the correction.

BTW when malaysia start using Nusantara? Do you have any evidence to your claim?

The term Nusantara it self was unknown before one of indonesian independence hero, DR. Setiabudi (1879-1950), introducing this term to give a name for the region of his country (later known as Indonesia). The definition of Nusantara introduced by Setiabudi is different with Nusantara definition at 14th century (Majapahit time). At Majapahit time, Nusantara defined as vassals area to be conquered later. Setiabudi didn't want to use this aggressive term, but he define Nusantara as all Indonesia region from Sabang until Merauke. This is the second times where Nusantara was officially mentioned.
Meanwhile Nusantara never mentioned at the history of malaysia, even at earlier malaysian period as a country there never mentioned Nusantara.

So your argument that Nusantara word had been adopted and localized because of hundreds years of process is totally wrong.

Actually i know the truth why you so afraid to discuss those terms. Let it be the thing for you to think about: are those term really appropriate and describe the actual condition of malay and also the actual position of malay whether malay is a race or ethnic group?

Just open a new thread regarding the terms than derailing this thread that deals with Nusantara. Kapish?

Well, the terms Nusantara appeared in ol Malay dictionaries since 1920s onwards. Regardless, the term 'Nusa Bangsa' appears much earlier in some ol' malay manuscripts.

Since Bahasa Malaysia & Bahasa Indonesia shared the common links with Bahasa Melayu Johor Riau (or Riau-Lingga in Indo), inevitably, the term Nusantara were shared interchangeably. It must be known, early Malayan & Indonesian nationalists were compatriots during 1900s to late 1940s period, so the ideals were pretty much commonly shared.

The best example .... the term, "MERDEKA".