I read many comment from Malaysian minister especially Rais Yatim who try to blur the history of Sriwijaya and Majapahit. One time he said something clearly regarding this case:



Some item which is totally wrong from rais:
1. He said that wayang originated from hinduisme and brought by Sriwijaya kingdom. I would like to inform you that Sriwijaya is Budhisme kingdom and wayang is not brought by sriwijaya.
2. There are no direct connection between wayang and indonesia. My comment: totally wrong, wayang is originated from indonesia as had been acknowledged by the world as proclaimed by unesco:

source:
http://www.unesco.or.id/activities/culture/programme/259.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayang
3. wayang are played at Palembang and batavia. Wrong, people at palembang and batavia don't have wayang culture. I don't know about singapore but i never heard wayang at singapore.

tak kisahlah wayang kulit tu sape punye sbb wayang kulit tu kan ada unsur2 khurafat yg jelas bertentangan dgn Islam sebab tulah PAS mengharamkannya di Kelantan...... kuda kepang kat Johor tu pun patut diharamkan sbb sampaikan org yg main kuda kepang tu kena rasuk..... jelas telah melanggar syariat Islam.......

You mean the wayang puppet play? Yes I believe it originated in Java. Its even spoken in Javanese.
With Hindu influence of course. It doesnt mean its not have been exported to other regions.

What do you mean by "wayang culture"? A large area of Indonesia was Hindu at one time. So there was alot of Hindu influence among various Islands.

Yeah... you shouldn' t claim and practice all those infidels custom and culture just for tourism sake.....( hahaha....)
Just import and practice only and strictly pure-noble Islamic culture only from Madinah Prophet's era....

All "non-Islamic" culture must go to trash, destroy, defaced.
Next step, destroy all temples ruin at Lembah Bujang, coz they're built by your infidel "pemuja berhala" ancestors.
Then... what do you know..., Malaysia become next Afghanistan under Taliban, destroying Bamiyan Buddhist monument....
Is that the future of Malaysia that you want...?

Did you have valid evidence regarding your claim? if so please share to us.
Untill now there are no evidence that people at palembang and batavia had wayang in their culture. In palembang we have "dulmuluk" and at batavia we have "lenong" and "ondel-ondel".

Unfortunately malaysia who claim as islamic country have gambling and prostitution legally at your country.

That's interesting, seriously. Could you please post an article regarding legal gambling and prostitution in Malaysia? It's kinda hard for me to find it in Google. :/

No need to do that, you can easily find gambling and prostitution at genting. I am also see prostitution at sun way lagoon.

Ah genting, I just found that. I agree with you that it's weird that Malaysia as a Muslim country allows gambling in Genting. However it's interesting to note that there's a land-based gambling casino at Surabaya.

http://www.ildado.com/land_casinos_indonesia.html

Anyway I've never agreed with casinos, wherever there are. IMO money should be spent on something more beneficial in the long run. Same goes with prostitution.

Another interesting thing to note:

Prostitution exists in many places in Indonesia, whether it is legal or illegal. The range of services comes in various classes from low-cheap to high-expensive. The International Encyclopedia or Sexuality : Indonesia ( under the topic 'Sexual Behaviour and Relationships of Single Adults' ).

There were 65,582 registered prostitutes in 1994... The city of Surbaya, with tens of thousands of prostitutes, is the largest sex industry center in South East Asia, which consists of hectares and hectares of modest houses with large, plate-glass windows where bored girls sit waiting: "streets full of human aquariums". It is also a magnet for the divorced and dispossessed women of the strict Islamic villages. The sex industry serves as a source of women for prostitution in provincial towns, through a black market network of pimps...

source: Indonesia - Facts on Trafficking and Prostitution

Prostitution is illegal in Indonesia, the country with the largest Muslim population in the world with about 190 million faithful, but Dolly (in Surabaya) for many years has been the exception to the rule.

source: Lights off in Indonesian red-light district during Ramadan

But of course, don't worry:

Indonesia will not recognize the sex industry as called for but the International Labor Organization, said Social Affairs Minister Justika Baharsyah in August 1998. "From a religious side, it can't be accepted...I personally disagree on the sex worker issue," said the Minister. "There is the question of morality. The government is finding ways to handle prostitution. In the social affairs ministry, we are handling rehabilitation (of prostitutes) with other ministries like manpower, religious affairs and education."

source: Indonesia - Facts on Trafficking and Prostitution


As for Malaysia, the article is short so you can just read it here.

Malaysia - Facts on Trafficking and Prostitution

An interesting excerpt from the above article:

Malaysia is a particular destination for various nations' sex tours.

Unfortunately:

There is no way of obtaining correct information on prostitution since the government doesn't compile them, said Malaysian Social Development Minister Zaleha Ismail. (Philip Waller, "UN: Prostitution Booming in Asia," Associated Press Online, 20 August 1998)

However finally:

Under the new law, traffickers and those who abet them face lengthy jail sentences of up to 20 years, heavy fines and even whipping.

"The new law is a major change for the better. It is tough on offenders and very comprehensive in its reach. But we fear it might sit pretty on the shelf if not effectively enforced," said Dr Irene Fernandez, executive director of TENAGANITA, a leading rights non-governmental organisation (NGO) that champions trafficked women and migrant workers. "We have demanded for such a law for a decade and now we have it...we are elated."

source: May Day - Malaysia: New Law targets Traffickers, not Victims


---

But really, it's very easy to talk about weaknesses in another country than weaknesses in your own country. Kuman di seberang laut nampak, gajah di depan mata sendiri tidak nampak.

The point is wayang kulit in Malaysia never from Javanese. We didn't have any relation with Java back then especially in northern Malaysia where wayang culture is flourish. Only the name was the same but it doesn't mean anything.
The problem is Javanese always believe they live at center of the world.
Remember wayang in Malaysia not originated from Javanese and Java not the center of the world....
I remember other country like cambodia has their own version of puppet show ??? Maybe Javanese who create that tooo... Go claim that in Cambodia too...

Well i don't know why? but its hard to believe that there are malaysian who do not know genting.
You do not get the point do you?
Indonesia didn't claim as islamic country thats why prostitution is legal, but for gambling there are no legal gambling at indonesia. Its different like malaysia who are "munafik" saying him self as islamic country but at another side gambilng and prostution are legal.

Do you have valid source regarding this? i can make the same claim but if there are no evidence such claim only as subjective claim.
If it isn't originated from java so why are you using the words of "wayang"? wayang is java word not malay as proclamated by Unesco at the link above.


Again, give the valid evidence please?

Lol yes, I do know Genting, it's just that somehow it did not enter my mind as fast.

It's funny that just because Indonesia is 'not' an Islamic country, you can use that as an excuse to legalise prostitution. And besides, there are so many Muslims in Indonesia - did you know it's the most populous Muslim-majority country in the world? That's 88% Indonesians professing to be Muslims, while 60.4% of Malaysians profess to be Muslims.

Islam in Indonesia
Islam in Malaysia

And, my friend, what is your point of bringing up the gambling and prostitution issue in Malaysia? Jangan jaga tepi kain orang. Manage your own end of the cloth first; manage the problems of your own people first.

NOP, there are no point for me. look above i just reply a comment from your people. Ok then, lets get bact to Topic regarding Wayang.

If you asked wayang practitioner in Malaysia, they will say that wayang kulit originated from Old Champa kingdom. But of course that oral tradition not in writing one.
Again Java not the center of the world...

Wow since you can call us "munafik", that means Indonesian way more Islamic than us...
Prostitute is illegal in Malaysia while gambling only legal for non-muslim...

Kalau no point, jangan start, man. Very controversial of you. :/


Yes I saw your comment for Betong. You asked for proof, but you didn't give me proof for legal prostitution in Malaysia.


Anyway go back to your wayang topic. : )

^Let it be CD... We all know that Indonesian can be a little bit arrogant sometimes

well, you can claim like that but the world had known wayang are originated from java like Unesco did. Btw I am never said Java as the center of the world.

Haha don't say that Betong, that word you used can be quite dangerous... >_<

I do know that Indonesians can be fiercely nationalistic, though. Talking of which, the Konfrontasi was really dangerous. I'm just glad that the Malaysian govt at that time successfully avoided bloodshed with the Indonesians. Wow if that happened, mati kita.

I love the Indonesian culture, but ... well, we all have imperfections.

Please continue on with the wayang, if you're still interested. Culture lessons can be very interesting.

And Champa is a long lasting loyal ally of Java......
During Kublai Khan punitive expedition to Javan Singhasari, Champa closed their port to Yuan's fleet (at that time Mongol-Chinese Yuan dynasty is common enemy for Java-Champa alliance).
Influence of Javanese architecture and style still exist in Champa ruins, and also vice versa. Majapahit king noted to be married to a muslim Champa princess. But still...., the evidence of oldest shadow puppet tradition (wayang means bayang or shadow) is recorded earlier in Java, not Champa. If Malaysian Wayang originated from Champa, then that's means they receive it second handedly.





Actually ancient Javanese (just like ancient Chinese that called their country Chung-Guo /"central kingdom") did believe they lived in the center of the world. Ancient Javanese develop their concept of their existence and "mapping" their realms accordingly, and this belief is the result.
Talking about egocentric huh.....?! Probably that explain Javanese/Indonesian soo called "arrogancy" you've state before.... because, I admitted that... yes we are daym proud people.....

There royal Javanese title reserved for Javanese king such as Hamengkubhuwana ("memangku buana" he who put the world on his lap) or Pakubhuwana ("Paku buana" the nail of the world), signify this beliefs. Ancient Javanese since Sailendra, Mataram, Kediri, Singhasari, and Majapahit always view their king as center of the world, the capital city and area surrounding royal palace as the center of giant Mandala encompassed whole realm of the kingdom. Also the king has divine power of a living god, considered the incarnation of certain god, especially Vishnu. This concept of divine king "Devaraja" also adapted by Srivijaya Empire and Angkorian Khmer Empire.

Thanks bro', i am not so well in javaneese history. nice to see you.

What claim are you refering too??? You mean Hinduism in Indonesia???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Indonesia

You still have to clearify what you mean by "wayang culture".

Hahahaha ..... You are absolutely right that Wayang Kulit came from Java coz 75% of all Peninsular “Malays” are Javanese descendant...

yeah, that's very sad for us as Muslims that our nation who claimed as Islamic have legal gambling........ so I hope Malaysia in the near future will have a pure Islamic leader in the government and not like now who just a hypocrite........

FYI, the state Kelantan that forbid the wayang kulit is under Islamic Party.......and I hope someday they will rule the nation........someday I hope, maybe not in the near future.....InsyaAllah..... in god's willing

I can't blame you if you not really understand Islam....... In Islam, we can't mix other religious culture in Islamic way of life...... but it doesn't mean that Islam prevents non-muslim from performing their belief....... in Afghanistan in which Taliban destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhist monument, you should understand that if there are not being use anymore or not being worshipped anymore, then it can be destroyed...... and I know you are aware that in Afghanistan we can say that they are mostly Muslims......... but if it still being used or worshipped by non-muslim who practise their belief, then it can be sustained .........

in Lembah Bujang, I can say it can still be sustained as historical site because it's not like the Bamiyan because in bamiyan the monument resembled human body while in Lembah Bujang is just a ruined temple........ in Islam it's a forbidden to create sculpture that resembles human body........

and one more thing, it's only our hypocrite government who claimed the so-called infidel customs and cultures as tourism sake but not me and other Malaysian Muslims who really want pure Islamic way of life......

It up to you if you want to claim that wayang from Champa was introduced by Javanese ??? I understand that and didn't have problem with that since you live in the center of the world.
I didn't have a problem with Javanese but sometimes I feel funny about their believe regarding Java Island and their spiritual believe.

This statement make me wanna cry again...
After that maybe you claim that Bahasa Indonesian was Javanese dialect....

Ok guys... lets back to topic, is there any malaysian can deny that wayang originated from Java. Please if you can, provide us with valid evidence, not only subjective claim.

Don't also forget to see the Kuda Kepang, a true blue "Javanese Pagan" dance. Go attend any wedding in Johore, and you will see the Pagan Dancers rip coconuts with their bare teeth, or eat broken glass, and even lie down on the broken glass while someone else steps and jumps on their bodies.

In my earlier post, I just want to say that it is very understandable that these "Malay" migrant brought over their craftsmanship and art over to this country...as well as Indian and Chinese descent did it to enrich our culture.... So, How can you "deny" our Malay history ?

Hahahaha... I also still can't understand why you "personally" hate Javanese ....

You not Malaysian. Don't pretend to be Malaysian. I'm feel sorry for your motherland...
Malaysian never wrote this way...

Again I feel sorry for your own country....

Tengah Dalam Kajian Mengatakan Candi Di Lembah Bujang Sebenarnya Kubu Pertahanan (Fort)


http://naim-firdausi.blogspot.com/

http://sejarahnagarakedah.blogspot.com/

Hahahaha ..... It is hard to accept that the TRUTH is above our nationality, race and religion ...
Don't say that you are not "ours" because of our different opinions ....

The problem being its destroying a piece of history. Even though there is no more Egyptians or Aztecs who practice their ancient religions I dont believe ancient architects & monuments should be destroyed. Could you imagine destroying the pyramids and all things ancient Egyptian (rhetorical)? Its about preserving history. Why need to destroy everything.

It's not about your opinion... Its about your bahasa. Look like you learn it from other country because we Malaysia never know what "wisata" means. What they teach you in school ???
The THRUTH is out there....

aisehmen..
another boring topic brought in by our "good" neighbour.
lets them claim everything in this nusantara..
they're the only country in ASEAN
Indonesian is the first people to be civilised in this world
everything is originated from Indonesia
so, Cambodia, Thailand and not forget MALAYSIA are tru copycats.
duhh

Bah, we never say anything about Thailand and Cambodia, because even though they are countries with rich cultures, they never claimed to own what is ours.

Thais are proud bunch of people, but they admit that they have a bit Javanese influences in their literature. And Cambodia with its great heritages are our allies from the beginning of history (just like Majapahitans said). I know from Cambodians of this forum that there are a lot of words of Chvear (Javanese) origin in their language, especially in art and culture. This is due to our intense relationship in the past, from Jayavarman until ancient Cham were good friends of ours.

So you see, we got no problem with them. We only have our problem with thieves who steal our heritage as they like and claim it as their own

are you being sarcastic, boy?

anyway.stop all the debates of what are malaysia's and what are indonesia's!

malaysian wayang kulit is not in javanese but in kelantanese dialect and accent

bukan semua dari wikipedia tu betul.bukan semua dari internuet tu betul.mahatir, kau ni indon ke orang malaysia ke atau langsung takda kena mengena.kalau kau malaysia kenapa thread ni diwujudkan aku tak tahu lah. kenapa ersusah payah nak perjuangkan semua ni indon punya

I agree, Wikipedia is not a very reliable source, but UNESCO is.

yes, wayang kulit is from Java. yes it is Malay too. Malay race.

Yes I did, girl.....! duh....!
Please understand my natural tendency to be sarcastic, it's embedded in my harddrive.

Anyway, I found witty sarcasm is the sign of intellectual thinking.
Patronizing someones intellegence by word jousting can be very exciting.


About my statement:
I'm muslim, but yes...., sometimes intolerant-puritant-God monopolizing-self righteous-fanatics-who often labelled themself as "true" muslim can irritate me and tingle my agresive side..... especially those who bomb Bali.

Again...
your wet dream about Malay Race
There's no such race terminology

Again ...
"The Malay Race" is just a small tribe occupying a small part of the sumatra island and also part of the peninsula
go to Sabah and Serawak; they won't admit themselves as Malay.

Again ...
Go to the eastern region of indonesia
No one there think that they are of Malay race

Again ...
Go to the Toba region
it's even nearer to the peninsula
no one there want to be called Malay
try calling them Malay
and they will kill you on the spot

Again ...
throw away your misconception about the great malay race
there's no such race as you are always proud of
only a political construct of UMNO elites
to preserve their reign

I hope u understand...

This is why i am asking to malaysian what is definition of Nusantara, Budaya Nusantara and Alam Melayu at this thread :
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=137061

Malaysian government try to blur the history of majapahit and sriwijaya, and what happen are their people doesn't know the truth fact of some term they used. At the end of this october i will be at KL for business purposes, may be i will go to the malaysian bookstore to find the official definitions of such term.

Research papers by Dr. Farish Noor on "People's History of Nusantara" .... It is good papers with malaysian view/perpective ....

See this link: http://www.othermalaysia.org/content/category/6/20/38/ ......

It is clear now that malaysia history is a part of history of nusantara ...

yeah baby yeah

first of i don't understand the purpose of creating this thread....

anyway, boy (the guy who said that malay race is javanese etc.......) , i think doeljengki is right.
there is no clear definition of the malay race.it is still debated.yes again wikipedia stated that all of indonesian ethnicities, philipine ethnicities, brunei malay, singaporean malay and and malaysian malay in ethnicity are of the malay race. remember it's wikipedia! i never agree with this theory ever.

do you think that the indonesians except those malays in riau proudly call them apart of the malay race! hell no! i think they will feel offended.they couldn't care less! if they think that they are of malay race, they will never debate in this tread and accept it! there just proud of their ethnicities and never ever the malay race like you do, boy!


i never ever agree on all this malay race theory. to me only the malays from the ethnicities from anywhere in this world are truly malays.like i do.


i never agree lah that the kerajaan malaysian are using the wikipedia theory and listed all other ethnicities from indonesian but are malaysia's native as malay! all those javanese people in malaysia who still talking javanese at home are written and recognised as malay but they only proud of their javaneseness. one example is Mawi................ same to those arabs, indian muslims, mamaks and etc.

most of the so-called malays in selangor and johor are from the indonesian ethnicities. javanese and bugis.


do you know that malaysian government will recognize anybody regardless of race but is islam and practising the malay culture such as celebrating raya malay style, wearing and eating malay food and talking fluent malay as a malay. yes, you can apply to that. even the chinese, dayak,orang asli or whatever as long they are muaLafs!


crazy, right!


anyway, the wayang kulit in malaysia is in kelantanese and i don't think the indonesian javanese will understand it a bit because it's a malaysian thing!!!!!!!!!!!!

hahahhaahha

right on, dude!

Don't forget (in Kelantan) we named it "Wayang Siam"......... Also don't forget that sometimes we named "Wayang Kulit" as "Wayang Jawa" ... hahahahaha.... ...