Just goes to show that the so called "separatist" attitudes of Koreans in this forum DOES NOT reflect the policy of the Korean people or government. Koreans do not necessarily support the disintegration of China. And the opinions of Koreans on this forum do not reflect the general opinions of the Korean people.

Healthy relations with China is very important for Korea and I think that will be become evident as cultural, economic and political ties continue to develop between the two countries. Korea, however, will not tolerate Chinese encroachment of Korea's sovereignty, politically or historically, just as China would expect the same.

He visited Mongolia recently...we just said it was for religious purposes only. The chinese cancelled thier flights and closed their borders and stuff like that. Why didn't Korea do the same....???

Because Outer Mongolia does not have much to lose ... they are piss poor!

Well whatever the reason for Korea doing so, I'm glad that they did if it means anything

I agree. There are too many Chinese nationalists and Korean nationalists on this board. It's distorting people's perception about the relationship of two countries. Korea and China need each others.

uh...yay for korea-china relations?

According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade(MOFAT), the political leverage, a despicable one I might add, that China has on South Korea that worked to deny Dalai Lama's visitation were the North Korean refugees and South Korean POWs. Now that we have foregone the opportunity to invite a respectable independent activist and a religious leader, I'd like to see MOFAT make this concession meaningful. If there is no progress on alleviating the plight of the North Korean refugees and South Korean POWs in China, then MOFAT would have no excuse to deny Dalai Lama's visit next time. And hopefully, this will be among many controversial issues that will blow up amid the Beijing Olympics.

What's so great abotu the Dalai Lama? His government ruled Tibet with a theocratic iron fist and now he's a damned marxist who can only find friends among doped up college liberals and overly-opinionated liberal arts college professors.

No matter how much long haired white free tibet students try, the Chinese government will not bend down to such weak people. Military and economic forces always beat out the cries of confused students.

Not surprising that Santaklaws is PO'd about this topic

Please read my very first few posts about some senior members of this board with very strong INDIVIDUAL political pov. I think you are one of those members I was talking about. Are you trying to influence the direction of opinions of this board whenever possible? Your posting gave me that impression to tell you the truth. I don't know what your motives are. I believe you are entitled to upheld your induvidual point of views. But you don't represent all Koreans. Please don't speak for the rest of us. I believe we have come to the conslusion that strong political views of several individuals directly cause trolling and chaos in Korean, Chinese, and Vietnamese chats. For the sake of AF, please tone down on some of your postings. It would be greatly appreciated by all AF members. Thanks.

I have had the pleasure of meeting him in Swiss. I am not religious but I still wear the yellow Buddhist string (or whatever its called) he gave us.

I believe I'm entitled to express my opinions, and I don't think you are in the position to ask me to "tone down" or accuse me of "very strong individual political pov", unless you give me some solid proof that my political POV, that China is the greatest threat to Korea's national security in the near future and the rise of China is no good news, isn't widely held among Koreans.

I propose that you are the greatest threat to AF. Should you prove that you are not a threat? I thought the burden of proof is on the one who is making assumption or accusation. You are, of course, entitled to express your opinions and assumptions. But your tone is so aggressive. What is unbearable to me is that you give me the impression that you are the speaker or the representitive of all Koreans. Wake up! Your vote and your opinions are no more worthy than mine. Please don't speak for the rest of us.

I've been reading this board for sometimes and just began posting since last week. I've noticed there are several members from Korean, Viets, Chinese chats always debate (or troll?) similar topics and express similar opinions over and over again. We already knew your posistion on certain subjects. What's th point to express the same opinion repeatly and knowing that your INDIVIDUAL view will provoke a lot of people? It's not constructive and it's not helpful to AF. I am not accussing you that you are trolling but your behavior is feeding the troll and you know it I believe.

Ironically the current South Korea government would roll out the red carpet for Kim Jong-Il if he ever wanted to grace them with his presence.

In the long term, China's and Korea's fates are one. If China is targeted and destroyed, the same will happen to Korea soon after. Our fates are intertwined. PM me if you want to hear why.

Having said this, China is the most dangerous state on earth, a threat to humanity.......... and all 1.3 billion of its citizens/peasants can kiss my @$$ for trying to steal my ancestral heritage (corporate justice).

almost forgot... dalai lama can kiss my @$$ too

Oversea Koreans can't care less about past and present Sino-Korean rivalties, it's all the lame trolls that makes it seem otherwise.

If you want to argue on how Koreans generally view China, you're welcome to make a thread about it in Korean Chat.

I know I'm provoking individuals who believe that Korea and China should develop cultural, economic and political ties. Likewise, I find individuals who advocate better cultural, economic and political ties with China provocative, as I'm opposed to such a view. It goes both ways. It's just a matter of how we ourselves behave, and you can't blame the behavior of trolls on those who discuss rationally in a civil manner.

^^That's a true scotsman fallacy. I'm an overseas Korean who cares. I also know many other overseas Koreans who care.

Well then, sorry for not being an overseas Korean, though I did live overseas for an extensive amount of time.



Even if Roh rolled out the red carpet, I doubt Kim Jong-il would dare to visit.

delete

You know this whole thread would have made far more sense if it was in the Korean chat.

Either way, to SK's current move (Political leverage involved or not)

What's wrong with making a half-assed attempt at trying to ease things up between Korean and Chinese posters on AF? Our past disputes over insignificant differences has made our relations very tense, which might be at this moment on the brink of collapse.

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/f...7041202,00.html

Dalai Lama diplomacy will not change Tibet - China
By Lindsay Beck
BEIJING, Nov 1 (Reuters) - A wave of high-level visits by the Dalai Lama to Western countries will have no effect on the status of Chinese-ruled Tibet, and will only serve to harm relations with Beijing, China's Foreign Ministry said on Thursday.
The Dalai Lama, considered the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism, was received by the leaders of Canada and the United States last month and met the Australian prime minister and German chancellor earlier this year.
"Some countries or people support the Dalai Lama with the ulterior motive of trying to interfere in China's internal affairs," Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told a regular news conference.
"I think their attempts will change nothing ... It cannot change the Chinese people, including Tibet compatriots, safeguarding the country's sovereignty and territorial integrity."
China has reviled the Dalai Lama as a political exile and a traitor since he fled Tibet in 1959 after a failed uprising against Chinese rule.
In his latest diplomatic move, the Dalai Lama is to meet Pope Benedict at the Vatican in December.
Such a visit could derail a tentative thaw in relations between China and the Vatican, which has not had formal ties with Beijing since shortly after the Communist government swept to power in 1949.
"We hope the Vatican side will not do anything that will hurt the feelings of the Chinese people. Instead, it should take actions that show it is sincere in improving relations," Liu said.
The Dalai Lama was received by Pope Benedict in a low-profile visit last year, and he has also met the late Pope John Paul.
Liu also denied a report from the Washington-based International Campaign for Tibet that Chinese border guards fired on a group of Tibetans fleeing across the Himalayas into Nepal last month.
"The information that Chinese police tried to shoot at border crossers in totally groundless," Liu said. "It is made up."
Last year, a young nun was killed when Chinese guards fired on a group of Tibetans attempting to cross in the same area -- the glaciated pass of Nangpa La. That incident was witnessed by a group of foreign mountain climbers.
Activists pushing for a free Tibet have also objected to Beijing's hosting of the Olympics in 2008, citing its human rights record in the remote, mountainous region. (Additional reporting by Philip Pullella in Rome)

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-11/...ent_6992727.htm

BEIJING, Nov. 1 (Xinhua) -- Any attempt by any person and by any means to sabotage stability and development in Tibet is doomed to fail, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao said here Thursday.

Liu, in response to a question at a regular press conference, said that China has firmly engaged in the development, stability and prosperity of Tibet.

The Dalai Lama is a political exile who is attempting to separate the motherland, he said.

According to Liu, certain countries and persons showed interest in the Dalai Lama for two reasons. "Some people have been misled by him, while some hope to change something through him," he said.

"Actually, they can change nothing," Liu stressed.

No one or effort "can change the firm determination of the Chinese people, including the Tibetan people, to safeguard China's sovereignty and territorial integrity, nor can they change China's determination to engage in development, stability and prosperity in Tibet," he said.

He hoped certain countries make no miscalculation over the issue.

In response to a question on the proposed December meeting between the Pope and the Dalai Lama, Liu said that China urged the Vatican not to do anything which will hurt the feelings of the Chinese people, and he urged the Vatican to show its sincerity in improving ties with China with earnest acts.

Certain acts made by certain countries on the Dalai Lama issue has already brought damage to their ties with China, he said.

Moreover, these acts "will further undermine their image in the minds of the Chinese people and also their credibility in observing basic norms of international relations," he said.

He hoped relevant parties would face up to the problem and stop interfering in China's internal affairs, in an effort to maintain bilateral ties with concrete acts.

Don't worry, if things get bad, we could always attack their capital with cruise missiles.

Everything with you is always about military action isn't it?

I was just stating the facts

Sorry - I was just needling you.


It's true, the cruise missile has the capability (which also ties into the other discussion thread!)

Many of you posters here are reincarnation of tape recorders or something from your last life. The same tape that carries the same message keeps rolling. rolling, and rolling from your last life to this life. You guys should really get a life.

I think Dalai Lama agrees with me too.

China may be the greatest threat to Korea, but how will souring relations with them change that? In many cases, the only way to reduce threat is through political understanding and economic integration. It's a trade off: As trade ties warm, China gets a more depedant Korea and Korea becomes more powerful. We also get higher potential from North Korea and better access to North-East Asia, generally. Strong ties with China is the closest Korea will get to a total re-unification of the Korean peoples all across North-East Asia. On the other hand, always screaming the China threat only seeks to destablize the region and prevent the economic development that East Asia needs to be a world leader.

And although China has made provocative moves on our history, sovereignty and North Korea, I doubt they will make any progress, as the Korean identity is strong enough to fend off any Chinese distortions. As China-Korea relations become more valuable, it no longer becomes cost effective for China to make such politically motivated provacations, at least in the near future.

very true

Oh well, this is just another smelly Kimchees bowing down to oily Egg Rolls again, nothing interesting.

Choson1, will you ever grow up to respect other people from being that bozo Christian fundamentalist?

As for the topic, I feel bad for the Buddhist citizens of S.K. for being denied of their rights. What's next...?

Korean buddhist sec is very different from Tibetan buddhist in my opinion.

I don't think it was just South Korean government decision to ban Dalai Lama visiting Korea, many Christianity and Korean buddhist secs don't like Tibetan Dalai Lama's visits, so its not that Korean want to improve diplomatic ties with China. South Korea and China is already enjoying the longest diplomatic ties in the world.

What's most important for maintaining stability in the region is to maintain a balance of power and keep China at bay. Clearly, China's military and political influence will increase exponentially, and precedent policies of the Chinese government indicates that China's military and political influence will be put to no good use, and will only destablize the region and the world if left unchecked. In other words, we have seen how China behaves irresponsibly and unscrupulously even when it's not much of a power. We're sure to see much more of that once it does get some power. That characterizes China's rise as the greatest threat to Korea, and we should prepare accordingly by strengthening strategic relationship with other countries that face the same kind of threat from China.



Just think of what happened to us during Japanese colonial occupation and think of what's happening to the Tibetans today. Naitonalistic resolve doesn't matter much when you're subjected to military occupation and brutal political oppression.

Some of the people who tried to invite the Dalai Lama were high-ranking monks of the Jogye Order, the dominant Buddhist sect in South Korea. I believe I've already posted the official reasons why MOFAT denied Dalai Lama's visit.

Personally I think the PRC government's attitude towards the DL is going the wrong direction. By making such a big fuss about every action he takes, it will only make them look paranoid. It's like I said before, who cares if the old man decides to visit a few countries? It's not like they possess any real political power to change anything. By getting paranoid and upset, the PRC government is surrendering power to him and his cronies. It's a waste of time and does nothing but harm to China today. In general, I'm glad about the overall progress in Tibet especially with the recent completion of the Qinghai railway but I think the outbursts of anger from the PRC is a huge blunder.

Having said that, to SK for committing to such a move (Political leverage involved or not).

There are more pressing issues to China than paying attention to Dalai the old man. Chinese government is "acting" they care. Hehehe....

to the Korean government on showing the rest of the world just how cowardly they are. to caving in to bullies to showing China that they can mess with us all they want and get away with it. Great job Roh administration. If any SK political leader is reading this (And I'm sure they're not), I'd just like to say to you GO fu-k YOURSELVES!!!

OK

BE MORE SPECIFIC. Which precedent policies are you talking about?

Did they invade Iraq and cause the deaths of 600 thousand, looking for WMDs that don't exist? Kill three million Vietnamese civilians with their policy of carpet bombing? Did they decide to carpet bomb every city to every hamlet in North Korea and strafe fleeing Korean refugees? Did they atomic bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Obviously not, because these were the fu-ked up policies of the US.

But do you know of any Chinese policies that comes close to these US policies? If not, then your whole argument is invalid.


Give some examples or your argument is invalid.


That doesn't even make sense.


There are major differences.
1. Tibet was an insane dictatorship under the rule of the Dalai Lama, who OWNED SLAVES.
2. Tibet was already part of China's territory for 300 years.

As much as China is dangerous (capable of raising 100 million soldiers) and a potential threat (exponential rise) and everything (break-neck economic growth)... I think there are many other countries, like Russia and the US who have ACTUALLY had a recent history of policies which were FAR worse than anything China came up.

Did the U.S. unilaterally invade its neighbors and annexed an independent state? China did, which makes my argument valid in its entirety and especially relevant where Korea is a neighbor to China.

Tibet makes perfect sense - an independent state that was invaded and annexed by a foreign imperial power. And the fact that you make the very same kind of excuses as Japanese ultranationalists to justify imperialism, such as that "Korea/Tibet had a backward culture", and that "Korea/Tibet was a part of China and was never independent" tells us that what we're dealing with here - Chinese imperialism and Japanese imperialism - are of the same kind. Go make more and more excuses to justify China's occupation of Tibet, and you'll inevitably be defending imperialism and liken yourself to Japanese ultranatioanlists, because imperialism is precisely what we're dealing with.

Okay, so let me get this straight.

What you're saying is, that the Qing took over Tibet, Mongolia, and China.

And after the 20th century, any territory taking is illegal.

Thus, the CCP has no right to take any of Qing territory, whether it be Mongolia, Tibet, or Guangdong etc. etc, since this is all Qing territory. So, the CCP can overthrow the Qing, but it cannot take Qing territory, hence why the PRC's claiming of Tibet/Mongolia is incorrect, since it doesn't even have a right to any Chinese land, as that land all belongs to the Qing.

And by your logic, if a territory were to separate from a main territory, it should have the right to do so, and the main territory cannot force the minor territory to come back. Thus, there are no such things as civil wars, only wars of invasion.

The fact is that Qing was an empire itself, and Tibet broke free as an independent state with the collapse of that empire. PRC has no right to Tibet as Japan has no right to its former imperial territories.

Tibet declared independence when the ROC was in power, and the ROC never relinquished claim of Tibet. Thus, it was in a virtual civil war because Tibet and Mongolia broke off from the ROC, the only difference being that the ROC never militarily engaged Tibet and Mongolia. If the PRC has the right to ROC territory, then why doesn't it have the right to take back all territory that was claimed by the ROC?

Doesn't make much of a difference whether ROC or PRC both claim the former imperial territories of Qing.

So if a part of a country breaks off, doesn't that make a civil war for reclamation of lost territory? It's secession.

There's a difference when that country is an empire, or intends to inherit the imperial territories of an empire.

says who?

What a nice fine, arbitrary line you've got there.

It's as "arbitrary" as the fact that Qing was an empire, and so is the PRC that inherited Qing's imperial legacy by means of brute military force. Same can be said of UK or Japan if they start invading other independent states to inherit the imperial legacy of the British Empire or the Japanese Empire. But, unlike Tibet, Korea and India weren't invaded again by resurgent imperialist states.

Why do you guys even bother with Santaklaws? He's literally creating his own definitions as he goes along as if he had some divine authority that the international community was obligated to follow.

Right, the imperialists, but the Qing took these territories before concepts of imperialism existed. You wouldn't call that fair game of conquest? They're pretty much special autonomous states under the Qing.