I saw this sentence on Al Jazeera... made me think --- what exactly is Australian culture apart from kangaroos and koala bears. Everything else doens't seem that original..
what do u think?
Full Version: Does Australia have any culture?
aboriginal culture...
the new australia is mixed european/asian culture i guess =|
the new australia is mixed european/asian culture i guess =|
^ Awesome, then i suppose Canada is a mix of British and American culture then 
nah. I dont think so. Canada's a mix of dozens of different cultures into one.
sorry about going off topic. But what exactly do you mean by culture? Something that gives a country it's identity? :|
I say every country's unique from another and Australia's no different.
nah. I dont think so. Canada's a mix of dozens of different cultures into one.sorry about going off topic. But what exactly do you mean by culture? Something that gives a country it's identity? :|
I say every country's unique from another and Australia's no different.
Culture?
ok, dictionary.com defines it thus:
1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.
3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.
4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training.
5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.
6. Anthropology. the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.
I dunno what Australia has given to the world in terms of its culture except for boomerangs and didgeridoos which are in fact from aboriginal culture and not even the anglo whites!
The one really cool thing from Australia has got to be these "songlines", songs that were sung by Aboriginals in their heads to help guide them through the bush as they walk for days and weeks across the aussie deserts.
source : wiki
ok, dictionary.com defines it thus:
1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.
3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.
4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training.
5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.
6. Anthropology. the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.
I dunno what Australia has given to the world in terms of its culture except for boomerangs and didgeridoos which are in fact from aboriginal culture and not even the anglo whites!
The one really cool thing from Australia has got to be these "songlines", songs that were sung by Aboriginals in their heads to help guide them through the bush as they walk for days and weeks across the aussie deserts.
QUOTE
Songlines are an ancient cultural concept, meme and motif perpetuated through oral lore and singing and other storytelling modalites such as dance and painting. Songlines are an intricate series of song cycles that identify landmarks and subtle tracking mechanisms for navigation. These songs often evoke how the features of the land were created and named during the Dreaming. The Dreaming Spirits as they travelled across the Earth, created and named trees, rocks, waterholes, animals and other natural phenomena. Molyneaux & Vitebsky (2000, p.30) augment further: the Dreaming Spirits "...also deposited the spirits of unborn children and determined the forms of human society." Therefore, establishing tribal law and totemic paradigms.
By singing the songs in the appropriate sequence, indigenous peoples could navigate vast distances (often travelling through the deserts of Australia's interiority). The continent of Australia is a system-reticulum of songlines, some of which are of a few kilometres, whilst others traverse hundreds of kilometres through disparate terrain and lands of many different indigenous peoples ~ peoples who may speak markedly different languages and champion significantly different cultural traditions.
An interesting feature of the paths is that, as they span the lands of several different language groups, different parts of the song are said to be in those different languages. Thus the whole song can only be fully understood by a person speaking all the relevant languages.
In the Sydney region, because of the soft Sydney sandstone, valleys often end in a canyon or cliff, and so travelling along the ridge lines was much easier than travelling in the valleys. Thus the songliness tend to follow the ridge lines, and this is also where much the sacred art, such as the Sydney Rock Engravings, are located. In contrast, in many other parts of Australia, the songlines tend to follow valleys, where water may be more easily found.
To indigenous peoples, songlines also confer a title and deed to the holder or the keeper of the particular song (or Dreaming) and entails an inherent obligation and reciprocity with the land.
In his 1987 book, The Songlines British novelist and travel writer, Bruce Chatwin describes the songlines as:
"...the labyrinth of invisible pathways which meander all over Australia and are known to Europeans as 'Dreaming-tracks' or 'Songlines'; to the Aboriginals as the 'Footprints of the Ancestors' or the 'Way of the Law'.
Aboriginal Creation myths tell of the legendary totemic being who wandered over the continent in the Dreamtime, singing out the name of everything that crossed their path- birds, animals, plants, rocks, waterholes- and so singing the world into existence."''
By singing the songs in the appropriate sequence, indigenous peoples could navigate vast distances (often travelling through the deserts of Australia's interiority). The continent of Australia is a system-reticulum of songlines, some of which are of a few kilometres, whilst others traverse hundreds of kilometres through disparate terrain and lands of many different indigenous peoples ~ peoples who may speak markedly different languages and champion significantly different cultural traditions.
An interesting feature of the paths is that, as they span the lands of several different language groups, different parts of the song are said to be in those different languages. Thus the whole song can only be fully understood by a person speaking all the relevant languages.
In the Sydney region, because of the soft Sydney sandstone, valleys often end in a canyon or cliff, and so travelling along the ridge lines was much easier than travelling in the valleys. Thus the songliness tend to follow the ridge lines, and this is also where much the sacred art, such as the Sydney Rock Engravings, are located. In contrast, in many other parts of Australia, the songlines tend to follow valleys, where water may be more easily found.
To indigenous peoples, songlines also confer a title and deed to the holder or the keeper of the particular song (or Dreaming) and entails an inherent obligation and reciprocity with the land.
In his 1987 book, The Songlines British novelist and travel writer, Bruce Chatwin describes the songlines as:
"...the labyrinth of invisible pathways which meander all over Australia and are known to Europeans as 'Dreaming-tracks' or 'Songlines'; to the Aboriginals as the 'Footprints of the Ancestors' or the 'Way of the Law'.
Aboriginal Creation myths tell of the legendary totemic being who wandered over the continent in the Dreamtime, singing out the name of everything that crossed their path- birds, animals, plants, rocks, waterholes- and so singing the world into existence."''
source : wiki
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Nov 9 2007, 04:07 PM) [snapback]3305720[/snapback]
Culture?
ok, dictionary.com defines it thus:
1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.
3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.
4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training.
5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.
6. Anthropology. the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.
I dunno what Australia has given to the world in terms of its culture except for boomerangs and didgeridoos which are in fact from aboriginal culture and not even the anglo whites!
The one really cool thing from Australia has got to be these "songlines", songs that were sung by Aboriginals in their heads to help guide them through the bush as they walk for days and weeks across the aussie deserts.
source : wiki
ok, dictionary.com defines it thus:
1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.
2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.
3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.
4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training.
5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.
6. Anthropology. the sum total of ways of living built up by a group of human beings and transmitted from one generation to another.
I dunno what Australia has given to the world in terms of its culture except for boomerangs and didgeridoos which are in fact from aboriginal culture and not even the anglo whites!
The one really cool thing from Australia has got to be these "songlines", songs that were sung by Aboriginals in their heads to help guide them through the bush as they walk for days and weeks across the aussie deserts.
source : wiki
It's a set of behaviors that define the social norm of a group, at least that's what I think we're discussing here. Other definitions, such as 1,2, and 4 I don't intuitively think that that's what you mean. Of course, I can't read your mind or know what was written on that article, but I don't think that either you or the Terrorist's News Network were asking if Austrailia is really artistic or well refined in regards to ettiquette.
Honestly, I've never been there, but I imagine them being a little rude comparing to Americans. Americans are probably obnoxious as tourists but are probably pretty polite comparing to some cultures, and I imagine Australia being a little rude and crude. Maybe I'm thinking the wrong things when I think about Austrailia here, like Steve Irwin or Crocodile Dundee, but it seems like people in Australia are accustomed to wrestling kangaroos and hunting wallabies and what-not.
As for the the definitions, 3, 5, and 6, it's probably that Australia does have a culture. It's probably close to that of the Anglo-Saxon culture, but Australia is the only country in the world with an Australian accent. Even the non-regional American diction is very similar to the Anglo-Saxon Canadian, with the exception of prouncing about as "aboot" or arbitrarily adding "eh?" at the end of sentences.
But, every group of human beings have their own culture. You have a culture in your family, culture in your group of friends, and culture at work. Within the American high school culture, you have "cliques" where each one has it's own unique culture and the people there are distinctly seperate. Which, might give some people in this forum the impression that races in this country only stick to their own kind (not true based on my experience, at all!), due to the American's highly individualistic philosophy.
Although, we Americans have come to the call for our nation in times of crises, and have really come together as one of the most industrious people who are highly patriotic, most Americans are pretty selfish. They mostly care about themselves or their immediate family, and is why we're so apathetic when it comes to politics and world events. Also, why Americans aren't usually so open to embracing other cultures.
"This foreigner is really strange, I don't understand why they talk or dress like that, don't care to find out. If someone tries to explain this person to me, or things that I don't care about, I'm going to be pissed."
But, speaking for Australia, it seems that they share a Anglo-Saxon, pseudo-American/modern Western culture which is similar to that of North America and the UK's culture. However, they did develop some unique traditions, by observing the aboriginals they picked up some of their culture and adopted it for their own.
I also imagine that Australia is pretty racist, too. Not sure why, might be from what I hear on the news and how the aboriginals are treated or how there are like 99.9999999% whites in a country that's isolated from EVERYTHING. Too far to fly to and if it wasn't an industrialized nation, nobody would ever think to go to Australia. Why do you think the British used it to drop off their society's rejects?
^ Oh my... how wrong you are. Australia isn't as isolated as you'd think. In fact the top of Australia is closer to Indonesia than the South is to the island of Tasmania. The British dropped off their criminals, such as those who stole bread because they couldn't afford to keep their own in jail. So Australia does have a convict history, but so what? The United States of America has a history of butting into other countries businesses, the Korean War, the Vietnam War. Currently bullies other countries for oil and has this insane fear about not being the number one superpower anymore. Americans also have a history on enslaving black Africans for 200 years. You make it seem like Australians treat their native population horribly. Wait til you come here and see how much the government has been trying to improve the situation. The native people get a free education, they have places in University that are created solely for them. They have job placement programs that are directed solely towards them. The rate of their welfare is extremely high. For the ones who don't work, they can get more money than a person who does work. It's their lazy asses that are keeping them down these days. Even their own leaders admit it.
One thing I can vouch for however is that Australians do seem to be rather abrasive. A lot of English folks and especially Asian fobs think that we're rude, but it's just the way we speak to each other. We're a lot more direct, and sometimes a friendly chatter looks and sounds like 2 people about to get into a punch on. It's hilarious watching the imported security guards try to break up a 'fight'... and then the perplexed look on his face moments later.
I suppose that could be considered Australian culture.
Okay, well anyway I have work, toodle oo!
edit: Ohh! wikipedia has an article on Australian culture. Apparently a lot of us have this Tall Poppy Syndrome. Look it up.
We have a habit of using the diminutive form of names.. Dandenong -> Dandy, Springvale -> Springy, Sharon -> Shaz, McDonalds -> Maccas.
We have an underdog attitude, if there's a sporting competition between two sides then we'll barrack for the side that is less likely to win, unless they're competing against Australia.
LOL!
One thing I can vouch for however is that Australians do seem to be rather abrasive. A lot of English folks and especially Asian fobs think that we're rude, but it's just the way we speak to each other. We're a lot more direct, and sometimes a friendly chatter looks and sounds like 2 people about to get into a punch on. It's hilarious watching the imported security guards try to break up a 'fight'... and then the perplexed look on his face moments later.
I suppose that could be considered Australian culture.
Okay, well anyway I have work, toodle oo!
edit: Ohh! wikipedia has an article on Australian culture. Apparently a lot of us have this Tall Poppy Syndrome. Look it up.
We have a habit of using the diminutive form of names.. Dandenong -> Dandy, Springvale -> Springy, Sharon -> Shaz, McDonalds -> Maccas.
We have an underdog attitude, if there's a sporting competition between two sides then we'll barrack for the side that is less likely to win, unless they're competing against Australia.
QUOTE
Australian language is contradictory too: it combines a mocking disrespect for established authority, particularly if it is pompous or out of touch with reality, with a distinctive upside-down sense of humour. For instance, Australians take delight in dubbing a tall man "Shorty", a silent one "Rowdy" a bald man "Curly" and a redhead is "Bluey". Politicians, or "pollies", be they at state or federal level, are generally disliked and distrusted.
LOL!
even a family has its own culture...
australia probabaly has...
i know one thing's for sure..
fu-king in australia is easy...
australia probabaly has...
i know one thing's for sure..
fu-king in australia is easy...
^ yup, esp if you look as hot as felltohell 
lol you flirt!
QUOTE(transtic @ Nov 10 2007, 09:05 AM) [snapback]3306276[/snapback]
You make it seem like Australians treat their native population horribly. Wait til you come here and see how much the government has been trying to improve the situation. The native people get a free education, they have places in University that are created solely for them. They have job placement programs that are directed solely towards them. The rate of their welfare is extremely high. For the ones who don't work, they can get more money than a person who does work. It's their lazy asses that are keeping them down these days. Even their own leaders admit it.
Actually, didn't the Australians use to get paid for every scalp they brought back to british colonial government back in the days they were colonizing in Tasmania? I heard that's how the indigenous population in Tasmania was exterminated.
Did the Americans use to do that sort of policy with their native American Indian population?
What do u think of the American idea of enriching native American Indians through setting up tax-free casinos in their reservations? Some native American Indian communities are now so rich they have Wall Street bankers up their arses on a daily basis helping them devise investment strategies...
QUOTE(felltohell @ Nov 10 2007, 05:50 AM) [snapback]3306417[/snapback]
even a family has its own culture...
australia probabaly has...
i know one thing's for sure..
fu-king in australia is easy...
australia probabaly has...
i know one thing's for sure..
fu-king in australia is easy...
i don't know if you thought much into this post, but it is the most profound thing i've read today.
man hamlet, u are deep... i'd hv thought "fu-king in australia is easy" wd be the most profound thing said on the forum today
edit:double post
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Nov 12 2007, 05:44 AM) [snapback]3307831[/snapback]
Actually, didn't the Australians use to get paid for every scalp they brought back to british colonial government back in the days they were colonizing in Tasmania? I heard that's how the indigenous population in Tasmania was exterminated.
Did the Americans use to do that sort of policy with their native American Indian population?
What do u think of the American idea of enriching native American Indians through setting up tax-free casinos in their reservations? Some native American Indian communities are now so rich they have Wall Street bankers up their arses on a daily basis helping them devise investment strategies...
Did the Americans use to do that sort of policy with their native American Indian population?
What do u think of the American idea of enriching native American Indians through setting up tax-free casinos in their reservations? Some native American Indian communities are now so rich they have Wall Street bankers up their arses on a daily basis helping them devise investment strategies...
I've never heard of that, I'd actually like to see a proper scholarly article about the extermination of the Tasmanian aboriginals though. If something like that happened I'm sure I would have heard about it in school because all the teachers I've had have been fairly critical about the way aboriginals have been treated, and to have something like this skip over me all this time is a little surprising, and I have no idea about the native American Indian population.
The casino idea is good in the short term... but if they don't have an education they're going to be worse off than ever.
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Nov 8 2007, 11:22 PM) [snapback]3303912[/snapback]
I saw this sentence on Al Jazeera... made me think --- what exactly is Australian culture apart from kangaroos and koala bears. Everything else doens't seem that original..
what do u think?
what do u think?
kangaroos and koala bears are animals.
that makes no sense. aussie culture is a culture of sports and and outdoors. we could go on, but here is too much without even contemplating aboriginal culture.
Try the book The Aboriginal Tasmanian by Lyndall Ryall under Google Book Search.. there's controversy abt the extermination of Tasmanians. There is still a remnant population, but there was definitely an extermination campaign carried out on the island. The author claims that such a focus on the island made tasmania a scapegoat for the other extermination campaigns on the mainland of australia. Sure, the tasmanian natives did not die out but like all the mainland aborigals they suffered the ravages of war, depopulation, dispossession, humiliation and bureaucratic indifference. Another book to read is Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. Also a controversial documentary titled The Last Tasmanian.
http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/film/Tasmanian.html
http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/film/Tasmanian.html
QUOTE(ham_let @ Nov 11 2007, 01:47 PM) [snapback]3307835[/snapback]
i don't know if you thought much into this post, but it is the most profound thing i've read today.
that's like saying i don't think..
lol
This is Australian Culture
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F2Lr2mvauCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkukoaozID0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F2Lr2mvauCY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkukoaozID0
AUS culture based on the 'true blue aussies' (meaning if their dad, grandpa, great-granpa who r aussies) drink VB beer oftenly, yet swear in every couple sentences. + the cowboy hat.
There.
There.
QUOTE(transtic @ Nov 10 2007, 02:05 PM) [snapback]3306276[/snapback]
You make it seem like Australians treat their native population horribly. Wait til you come here and see how much the government has been trying to improve the situation. The native people get a free education, they have places in University that are created solely for them. They have job placement programs that are directed solely towards them. The rate of their welfare is extremely high. For the ones who don't work, they can get more money than a person who does work. It's their lazy asses that are keeping them down these days. Even their own leaders admit it.
So, basically.... you're Canadian.
Australian culture is low cockney or lower class english culture for the most part because that is its origins.I think of Australia
as the 'bastard child' of the US and the UK.
There is little culture here,most of nsw is suburban sprawl,mcmansions and malls [us type lifestyle],souless/no soul,no strong art culture,no interests in the arts in general except a minority of people within the innercity,sports is the main unifying culture. I dont know why anyone would want to come here,I cannot wait to leave and I was born here.
as the 'bastard child' of the US and the UK.
There is little culture here,most of nsw is suburban sprawl,mcmansions and malls [us type lifestyle],souless/no soul,no strong art culture,no interests in the arts in general except a minority of people within the innercity,sports is the main unifying culture. I dont know why anyone would want to come here,I cannot wait to leave and I was born here.
Australia is like a larger version of Georgia. They were both penal colonies.
." It's their lazy asses that are keeping them down these days"
This sort of ignorance is in abundance in oz,most here have no concept or knowledge about the people who have been living in the country for 70,000 years,no interest in their world view or culture ,their art or beliefs,no respect at all.Just throw some cash at them expect them to emulate a western lifestyle that they have no connection or understanding of and then b!tch and moan when they dont become like 'us' after they slaughtered them and stole their country.
Can you imagine if an indigenous group took over england massacred everyone there,then gave the few leftover people some cash and expected them to become one of them?
The ignorance of some australians never fails to astonish me,ive heard groups of police officers just exchanging aborginal jokes for fun absolutely zero respect for sacredness,age and people of the country that holds them.The savageness they spoke of in aborginals was really their own savageness projected.
This sort of ignorance is in abundance in oz,most here have no concept or knowledge about the people who have been living in the country for 70,000 years,no interest in their world view or culture ,their art or beliefs,no respect at all.Just throw some cash at them expect them to emulate a western lifestyle that they have no connection or understanding of and then b!tch and moan when they dont become like 'us' after they slaughtered them and stole their country.
Can you imagine if an indigenous group took over england massacred everyone there,then gave the few leftover people some cash and expected them to become one of them?
The ignorance of some australians never fails to astonish me,ive heard groups of police officers just exchanging aborginal jokes for fun absolutely zero respect for sacredness,age and people of the country that holds them.The savageness they spoke of in aborginals was really their own savageness projected.
QUOTE(MBeezy @ Nov 13 2007, 06:05 PM) [snapback]3311039[/snapback]
Australia is like a larger version of Georgia. They were both penal colonies.
So if the civil war went differently, America would be like Australia>
QUOTE(felltohell @ Nov 10 2007, 09:50 AM) [snapback]3306417[/snapback]
even a family has its own culture...
australia probabaly has...
i know one thing's for sure..
fu-king in australia is easy...
australia probabaly has...
i know one thing's for sure..
fu-king in australia is easy...
QUOTE(ham_let @ Nov 11 2007, 06:47 PM) [snapback]3307835[/snapback]
i don't know if you thought much into this post, but it is the most profound thing i've read today.
She might have said it in a wierd way, but it sure does make a whole lot of sense.
Ppls, Australia culture is not Kangaroo and Aboriginals. Our culture continues to grow and evolve throughout the year. We’ve grown into a multicultural society, where we borrow a bit of this culture and abet of that culture. You go into the main street of Sydney CBD, and you’re see a bit of Japanese, a bit of Indian, a bit of Viets, a bit of Arabs. That is our culture, that is who we are today, and I’m proud of what it is.
Australia contributes so little to Western Civ that I don't even friggin consider them to be a part of it. Even though I like clowning on Canada, there's actually some cultured and intelligista type folk in that country.
snob much?
QUOTE(katiev @ Nov 14 2007, 10:23 AM) [snapback]3311065[/snapback]
." It's their lazy asses that are keeping them down these days"
This sort of ignorance is in abundance in oz,most here have no concept or knowledge about the people who have been living in the country for 70,000 years,no interest in their world view or culture ,their art or beliefs,no respect at all.Just throw some cash at them expect them to emulate a western lifestyle that they have no connection or understanding of and then b!tch and moan when they dont become like 'us' after they slaughtered them and stole their country.
Can you imagine if an indigenous group took over england massacred everyone there,then gave the few leftover people some cash and expected them to become one of them?
The ignorance of some australians never fails to astonish me,ive heard groups of police officers just exchanging aborginal jokes for fun absolutely zero respect for sacredness,age and people of the country that holds them.The savageness they spoke of in aborginals was really their own savageness projected.
This sort of ignorance is in abundance in oz,most here have no concept or knowledge about the people who have been living in the country for 70,000 years,no interest in their world view or culture ,their art or beliefs,no respect at all.Just throw some cash at them expect them to emulate a western lifestyle that they have no connection or understanding of and then b!tch and moan when they dont become like 'us' after they slaughtered them and stole their country.
Can you imagine if an indigenous group took over england massacred everyone there,then gave the few leftover people some cash and expected them to become one of them?
The ignorance of some australians never fails to astonish me,ive heard groups of police officers just exchanging aborginal jokes for fun absolutely zero respect for sacredness,age and people of the country that holds them.The savageness they spoke of in aborginals was really their own savageness projected.
Yeah, but you forgot the next sentence. Even some of the more well known aboriginals are saying the same thing buddy. I'll admit that I did take a very simplistic view on their perils. In any case when an Aboriginal does succeed in Australia, the whole country cheers with them, remember Cathy Freeman? The public adored her.
What kind of joke did the police make about the Aboriginals? O_o, although I gotta say everyone I know has made a joke about just about every race, we laugh about it even if it's about ourselves, we don't b!tch and cry and have a heart attack. I said it in another thread, but most overseas people don't seem to understand that no one is safe from being made fun of in Australia, and a lot of them take it very badly.
How long have you been in Australia anyway?
QUOTE(jiggyiggy @ Nov 19 2007, 10:25 AM) [snapback]3318910[/snapback]
Australia contributes so little to Western Civ that I don't even friggin consider them to be a part of it. Even though I like clowning on Canada, there's actually some cultured and intelligista type folk in that country.
Sure, rag on about the supposed stupidity of Australians, but at least we're not so fu-ked up as to vote in George W. Bush into office twice, then whine and b!tch about it both times...
.
QUOTE(transtic @ Nov 18 2007, 09:39 PM) [snapback]3319431[/snapback]
Sure, rag on about the supposed stupidity of Australians, but at least we're not so fu-ked up as to vote in George W. Bush into office twice, then whine and b!tch about it both times... .
.Nah you guys just b!tch and whine about John Howard, who's been your PM for over 10 years. At least Bush is going to be out in 14 months.
Actually we only complain during the election :P, it's what we do! Once it's over then there'll be no more speaking of it.. haha.
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