The HINDRAF issue is getting complicated for the ethnic Hindus and the Malayasia Govt
http://www.mynews.in/fullstory.aspx?storyid=1491

This letter was written to British Prime Minister Gordon Brown by Hindu Rights Action force (HINDRAF) Legal Advisor Mr. P. Uthayakumar. One may wonder why this letter was written to British Prime Minister. The answer is because the ethnic minority Indians in Malaysia was brought into Malaysia by the British some 200 over years ago. Since independence in 1957, the Malaysian Indians have been a part of Malaysian community. But we must not forget that Malaysia is an Islamic nation.

The issue of the arrest of 24 HINDRAF members and the consequent developments can’t be viewed as a simple issue. On the one hand, the Malaysian Government’s inadequacy of not only the absence of appropriate laws to deal with such a situation but also of the power that it should have had resting with the police under the Police Act rendering it helpless and the underlying fear of the Ethnic Indians’ movement gathering momentum over a period of time following the impressive and unprecedented demonstration of a gathering comprising 20,000 people. On the other hand the genuine concern of the ethnic Indians suffering on account of indifference shown to them over a long period have complicated matters so much that no solution can be visualized in the near future.


Right now the Malaysian Government is in a jam. It finds itself unprepared to deal with the situation not only to the satisfaction of the Malaysian Ethnic Indians but also to the India and other Common Wealth countries so much so that the courts in Malaysia too would find it difficult to untangle the issue. From the prevailing circumstances even the lawyers fighting the case of HINDRAF members will have to scratch their heads a bit. Matters extending over a longer period are not easy to tackle. There are facts that have changed and re-changed umpteen times.

The Babari Masjid or the Ram Setu issues in back in India similar in nature too are not open to easy solutions. A lot of patience and the spirit of give and take are essential. Bertrand Russel has said, “For countries to enjoy liberty some liberty will have to be sacrificed.” But then there are always people who are seldom inclined to make sacrifice and budge from their stand. The matter of ethnic Indians in Malaysia is not one with a recent history. The mere reference to compensation from the British for the Indians being taken to Malaysia over 150 years ago adds to the complexity of the issue.

The demolition of a temple claimed by HINDRAF to have existed over 100 years would need a genuine verification of facts with reference to old records which may or may not be available. The government too will not be in a position to right away reject this claim and so too the courts. But whatever the circumstances, to a great extent the helplessness of the Malaysian Government are apparent. The people who are in the Government right now are in a pathetic predicament, caught up in a dilemma and would very much like to extricate themselves unscathed in the end. The members of HINDRAF too, it is hoped, know this fact and should not let any opportunity to slip away for finding a mutually agreed solution without either party having to lose face.

This is expected of all concerned with this ticklish issue. Overall the situation must not come to a point where this peace loving Indian community of Tamil origin may be forced to into terrorism as what has happened to the Sri Lankan Tamils. Let us hope for the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gx3VRW_2-k...feature=related

Hindoos always like to make unrealistic demand. They the one who not ready for change because we live in Malaysia not Indian. Legal demolation of hindoo temple nothing like illegal demolation of Babri mosque. First of all, Hindoos like to built their temple on the land that not belong to theirs.

...

I don't know if this applies to Malaysian law but according to Australian law, which is similar to Malaysian law, there is such a thing as squatters rights, besides the land isn't owned privately but is crown land.

The govnt often talks about each race having an equitable share of the riches in Malaysia, the basis of the NEP. Well what share of the wealth do the ethnic Indians in Malaysia posses?

The govnt makes it law that all new housing developments must provide land for mosques, well what about land for a Hindu temple? The govnt provides public funds for the building of mosques, how much would it cost to relocate a hindu temple?

sad that such a religionous group asking for money as a compensation

the gov is the one who build most of the temple in malaysia...does hindraf ever build any temple?

Why is it sad? The govnt provides funds to build mosques everyday, why is this any different? The sad thing is that they the Hindu's actually have to ask. Personally I feel that generally the govnt shouldn't provide funds for anybody, except in exceptional circumstances, this being one of them.

As far as I understand the govnt provides no funds for any religious buildings except mosques. Instead, the govnt makes it difficult giving permission to build any religious houses besides mosques. I know personally of Christians waiting more then 10 years to obtain permission to build churches.

i think all of them should be forced to migrate to india.. just let them suffer with the living condition there.. that would be a lesson to ungrateful citizen.

Was that the best reply u could think of? What's next?Are u going to threaten to put us Chinese in concentration camps or ask us to get the fu-k back to China?

well at least im not that stupid like you to criticise people personally when i dont have anything brilliant to say regarding on the topic..


wtf? that would be awesome!! but i wont do that to my own kin.. lol
what i meant was hindraf u fukin bigot not indians..

whut da hell
r u stupid or what??
tiba2 je..
i'm agree with fadlee, send all HINDRAF members back to India,
they should learn, which life they prefer
India or Malaysia

do you think non muslim country like UK or China funding the mosque,
mosque there were built by kindhearted businessmen or money from Muslim NGO,
and muslim pray 5 time everyday and every Friday, those are compulsory,
so we need place to do our prayer
do Christians, Hindus or Buddhas need to pray 5 time everyday??

Yes, temples built on illegal lands should be demolished but in the case of Hindu temples, they just have no other alternative than to built temples on illegal land because the authorities do not allocate land to them and even on private land, permit for building temples is just so so difficult to obtain. The authorities should provide proper place for the temples before demolishing them.

This temples thing also draw my attention to the famous Zakaria mansion. I remember one of the head of the local authority said that since that guy has spent so much on the mansion, they can't just go and demolish the building, a compound is suffice.

Double standard here ?

Do the Secular, Christian, Hindu, Buddha country provide fund and free land to build a mosque? Most of the mosques in the AU, US, UK, EU, China, India are from private funds. If they want to build a new mosque, they have to buy a land first. Even using the existing building as a small mosque is not that easy. Just have a look the giant golden Hindu Lord at Batu Cave, the tallest in the world. Who has provided the fund for this Hindu lord , the land and the cave of the temple?

The fact that there are hundreds of illegal temples which are classified as permanent structure, at the corner, near the KTM land, inside the road reserve, or on TOL status land that run by family or individual as the guardian of the temple. Is it appropriate to legalize this temple and surrender the land ownership to the guardian? Whereas the Muslim Surau which is considered temporary structure can be anytime given up by the Muslim. While building of surau need legal permision from local authority.

What have a Muslims need to pray 5 times a day got anything to do with mosques? Firstly do all or even most Muslims pray 5 times a day? Certainly not the Muslims I've been in contact with. Furthermore, of those that do, how many of them actually go to the mosques to pray? Hardly any I'd say. All the Muslims that I know do not go to the mosque anyday except Friday.

You're right the countries you mentioned do not provide funds to build mosques, but neither do they provide funds to build churches or temples. As I've said, I personally don't believe that the govnt which is supposed to be secular should get involved in religion, but if its going to provide funds to build mosques then it should also provide funds to build temples and churches. Every person irrespective of religion, gets taxed equally, so why aren't their religion treated equally. If the govnt sees a need to only provide funds for mosques, fine introduce a special tax for muslims with all of the proceeds going towards the building mosques. If, as the practitioners of Islam on this forum like to suggest, that Muslims take their religion more seriously then practitioners of other religions, then Muslims should have little to complain about this.

We all need a place to worship. If the govnt sees fit to provide funds to build mosques and make it necessary for all new housing developments to provide the land for free to build these mosques, then it should also do the same for temples and churches. As it is, it takes more then 10 years to obtain permissio to build a church, if it is granted at all.

QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Dec 27 2007, 04:51 AM)

What have a Muslims need to pray 5 times a day got anything to do with mosques? Firstly do all or even most Muslims pray 5 times a day? Certainly not the Muslims I've been in contact with. Furthermore, of those that do, how many of them actually go to the mosques to pray? Hardly any I'd say. All the Muslims that I know do not go to the mosque anyday except Friday.

You're right the countries you mentioned do not provide funds to build mosques, but neither do they provide funds to build churches or temples. As I've said, I personally don't believe that the govnt which is supposed to be secular should get involved in religion, but if its going to provide funds to build mosques then it should also provide funds to build temples and churches. Every person irrespective of religion, gets taxed equally, so why aren't their religion treated equally. If the govnt sees a need to only provide funds for mosques, fine introduce a special tax for muslims with all of the proceeds going towards the building mosques. If, as the practitioners of Islam on this forum like to suggest, that Muslims take their religion more seriously then practitioners of other religions, then Muslims should have little to complain about this.

I never thought that I can agree with you, yes the secular countries do not provide funds to build mosques, churches or temples. Most of secular and non-muslim country never fund to built the mosques. So same to non-muslim in muslim country.

But Malaysia is not a secular country, not a theocratic islamic country like Iran, and also not a wholly place for muslim like Saudi Arabia. Malaysia is predominantly Muslim country where the official religion is Islam. The rakyat has to accept this, and all what they want cannot be always 100% fulfilled. Same as to muslim in non-muslim countries.

Even thought the secular countries seem to be ignorance of religion, but they still give the main concern to dominant religion, for example US, UK, AU, EU etc recognize Christmas as national festive and declared as public holiday. So where is the fare and square no matter what the Secular, Democratic, Communists, Islamic, Hindu, Buddha, Jewish and Theocratic countries are. All are same with double standard.

The official religion in Malaysia is Islam and according to the constitution its the govents responsibility to help the Agong(as the protector of Islam) regulate Islam but it does not say that by definition this includes providing funds for the building of mosques. Being a predominatly Muslim country has nothing to do with it. Look at Indonesia as an example.

Weather a country celebrates a religious holiday or not has nothing to do with discrimination against any religion but to do with specific numbers of practitioners of that religion and history. It has been decided that Muslims in Malaysia cannot participate in other religions relegious festivals, correct, so therefore Muslims should continue working over the christmas and deepavali holidays, these are after all religious holidays correct? But no Muslims also enjoy this as a public holiday why, because historically this has been a public holiday for everyone. The US, UK, AU, EU do not have public holidays of Muslims becasue as it stands now and historically, there have never been many Muslims in these countries, but you can't say that they are being unfair because neither do they have holidays for religious festivals for Judaism, Hinduism etc. Islam is practiced by 1% of the population in Australia. In Malaysia, Buddism is practiced by 26% of the population and Christianity 9%. However unlike Malaysia, all the other countries mentioned treat Islam and any other religion equally under the eyes of the law. The only double standard you mention, exists only in Malaysia and other Muslims countries though as I have said, not all.

All new housing developments will provide land for religous purpose. This land not belong to any religion not only for Islam. It's up to neighbourhood to apply the land for religous purpose. Most of the time Malays applied first because they always the majority people there. Maybe the developers need to provide more land for this religous purpose.
Govt. only provide funds for building official mosque only. Most of this mosque located in cities. But majority of mosque which was being built didn't using public funds. It's from public donation.

It has been decided that Muslims in Malaysia cannot participate in other religions relegious festivals, correct,...


- No, this is not correct. In religious festival? Who said cannot participate in other religious festival. We have a way to participate in this event, such as open house event. During CNY and Deeepavali or Christmas, I visit to my non muslim closest friend's house. In larger scale open house organised by goverment, ministers, my boss, my department and my employer, all religion been invited. During Hari Raya, I invited closest office mates and friends regardless their religion to my house. Before and during CNY, I bought 2 or 3 boxes of Mandarin orange and give to all my 200 office mates regardless their religion. Not only me, almost non muslim & muslim do the same too. I give 'Angpow' (cash in red evevelope) too, I give 'Duit Raya' or 'Chengpow' (cash in green envelope) to children of my chinese friends. So a month and after CNY, everybody eating Mandarin orange. During a month of Hari Raya celebration, my muslim office mates bring variety of kuih or traditional cake for all staff. Same practise during Chrismas and Deepavali too. That is how we celebrate. Of course I don't go to church or temples for prayer to participate in other religious festival.

so therefore Muslims should continue working over the christmas and deepavali holidays, these are after all religious holidays correct?

- No, this is not accurate. Everyone enjoys the public holiday. But in private sector, if muslim continue working, is their choice. I don't think is wrong if they want to work extra hours. The government offices of course closed. But in the some service sectors, during all public holidays, there are people continue working such as police, armies, security guards, hospital staff and stand by doctor and etc. I think you knew this. These people providing the service to public with regardless religion so that public can enjoy the any public holiday.

To reply in your last comments, my point that I am trying to highlight that, there are many forms of double standards with regard of religion treatment in many countries. Probably what you mentioned of what is happening in Malaysia is double standard, and what have you mentioned in other countries are not double standard from your perspective or non Malaysia, but it otherwise from my perspective. Well I respect your opinion. In my opinion, the religous public holiday is also a form of double standard and it just one of the examples of many other religion double standards regardless the population proportion.

I don't believe this is accurate. I have never seen any land in new housing developements, that has been donated by the developer used for any other religious house except mosques anywhere in Malaysia. Does anybody here know of any land "donated" by the developer used for anything except the building of a mosque?

Whats the definition of "unofficial" mosque. What I do know is that all the mosques in the cities are buit with governmet funding either state or federal.

Not too long ago the powers that be in Malaysia "ruled" that Muslims should't celebrate Christmas with Christians, nor should they attend weddings in churches, as these were deemed participating in a non Muslim religious festival. To me this is rediculous and by this definition then Muslims shouldn't be having religious public holidays either(other then Islamic ones obvioulsy). CNY is not a religious event.

The point I'm trying to make is that the way religion is heading in Malaysia is crazy and getting crazier. Islam is setting itself up as "better" then other religions and a double standard exists in Malaysia, a level of double standard that doesn't exist in any other non Muslim country. These poilicies are dividing Malaysia.

Why didn't you just believe that ? Go ask developer or local district your self. Sorry I forgot that you live in Australia. :p You just self denial about that. Why would developer "donated" land for mosque in Chinese populated area or Hindu populated area ? Doesn't make sense to me. Hindoos was over sensitive. A lot of "illegal" mosque have been demolished but we Muslims doesn't cry foul about that.

Have you ever seen a religious building other then a mosque go up as quicky as houses in a housing development. I think you need to open your eyes and not believe everything that the govnt tells you. Besides in new housing developments there is no such thing as Hindu or Chinese dominated areas, all new housing developemtns must provide "Bumi" housing so there will alwys be Malays in any new housing development.

So you are encouraging more hindu temples to be built in every new housing area?

All I'm saying is that the religions are not being treated equally.

At the moment I can tell you with absolute certainly that it took our church 10 years just to get permission to build the church, obviously no money from the govnt was fothcoming. We were fortunat that although we had to take a large loan and had to sell land to help pay for the church (which the congregation is still paying off by the way), for those less fortunate this is not an option. We all irrespective of religion, need somewhere to pray.

How equal you want? Declare the Christianity, Hindu, Buddha, Animism, Bahai, Taoism, Islam etc as official religion of Malaysia?

You can start off by helping those who can't afford it to build houses of worship.
Allow everybody to choose their own religion.
Remove the powers of the Shariah Courts.
Set up a body that will promote unity and understanding between religions which will also settle religious disputes.
Teach school students the basics of each religion in a matter that is designed to provide information rather then encouraging people to convert.

I personally believe that Islam should stay as the "Official" religion becasue it recognises the fact that Islam is practiced by the majority of people in Malaysia and recognises its influence in Malaysian culture, but it should be done in the definition the forefathers intended for it to be used. The most important thing is unity in Malaysia and by Malaysians. Religion and race should not be used to segregate the population.

Ha ha just like I guessed, a secular Malaysia idea.

But this type of secular has a tendency to be associated with multi religion. After all, this country will clustered with many religious symbols in the building, outside building, in the school, in the office, inside drawer, on the table etc.

And Islam later become the "Official" religion as useless gimmick.

Well if you read the Constitution and weather you like it or not Malaysia is supposed to be a secular society. How can you say you believe all Malaysians should be treated equally when you don't believe that religions should be treated equally. The Constitution was written not to appease the majority but to protect the rights of the minority.

If you want to have unity you must have equality, in every aspect.

And Islam being the official religion is not merely a gimmick, you should read the constitution. The constitution for one says the Yand di Pertuan Agong is the head and protector of Islam and that these powers and reponsibilities cannot be taken from him.

You cannot demand prevelidges for yourself that is not granted in the constitution particularly if it violates the rights of others, if you do it will only generate hostility, look at whats happening now. The Tunku and the Dato understood this. Remember that Malays only make up 60% of the population, this is not a resounding majority.

What's the damn problem, anyway?

For all the brouhaha, our dearest Samy Vellu has stated that 'illegal' Hindu temples is a problem endemic to Malaysia. A lot of 'illegal' mosques & suraus (mini-mosques) being torn down, yet we remain indifferent.

The issues has being tackled, so let the authorities deal with it.

Yes and Samy Vellu is really looking out for the best intrests of the Indian population and he does represent the Indian people. Hardly. Like the MCA, the MIC only look after the intrests of those at the top and are virtually useless in defending the rights of Chinese and Indians.

Y'know, for all the current plight of MY Indian community, the problem is much the same as those of African Americans still living in urban ghettoes & immersed in violent crimes.

The entire community should change their mindset. Several MY Indians are successful in their own rights, in leagl & professional professions.

Through stats & even public polls done within MY Indian community, they're more like MY Chinese, applying govt. jobs only as last result.

Their subsequent future generations should be skilled workers that can contribute greatly in MY construction sector, indeed should be better compared to semi-skilled & unskilled Indonesian immigrants. Not only that, they can even join Malaysian Armed Service that lately has been hit hard with lower number of recruits. Opportunities abounds in both private & local sector, but how MY Indian community tackled it, its up to them.

And just like White Americans you are mistaken if you think its simply a mindset. In fact the situation in Malaysia is worse then it is in the US. In the US they have "affirmitive actions" favouring African Americans. In Malaysia "affirmitive action" only benefits Malays.

The "Affirmitive action" benefits all Bumi of any religions. You always draw attention to the Malays and so focused to Malay & their religion (Islam).

You forgot about other non muslim Bumis. They are apart of the system. If you want Malay in Peninsular drops their status quo, doesn't mean other bumis, especially in West Malaysia which is majority are Christians/animisms will agree to this idea. When Sabah & Sarawak joined Malaysia, this Bumi privilege was guaranteed in order to form the Federation of Malaysia. Otherwise Sabah & Sarawak will be another country today.

I found that the relation between non-muslim Bumi and muslim Bumi is better then between non-muslim Bumi and Chinese. The Christian/animism Bumis are more comfortable with Malay Bumi then Chinese.

I've never said that it benefits Muslims, I've said Malays, why are you making this a religious issue?

By the way your final statement is not correct, I'm half non Muslim Bumi, and I know its incorrect. Most of that part of my family live in predominatly Malay communities, and I can tell you that the relationships with their Malay neighbours is not what it used to be.

So you are half non-Muslim Bumi, but what type of mixture you are?.
Chinese + Iban? or Chinese + Dayak? or Chinese + Orang Asli (in Peninsular)?
Are you Bumi status?

Just be honor to me. If I know your ethnicity background, then maybe I can understand better your concern, and what's make you so hate to the Malay. To achieve your ambition, you dont have to show anti-Malay sentiment. The Malay will listen to you if they feel not threaten.
My statement is based on my experience. I have friend, she is my classmate now, pursuing part time engineering course in university. Her father is a Chinese, and her mother is Iban. She is Christian Bumi status. I found her not comfortable to have Chinese friend.

In my office, a draughtsman from Sarawak. He is Christiant Dayak has more Malay friend then Chinese. He use to go out with malay friend during lunch, have a tea in mamak restaurant, and in every event except that during lunch in Friday.

When I use to travel to Sarawak or Sabah, I have many friends from local Bumi entertaining me, picking me up at airport, take me out for dinner. I use to conduct software training in Sabah and Sarawak, I can see most of the time, the non-muslim bumi and Malay took a seat in one group, another group is Chinese, but not all the time. So all these experience make me wonder of the Chinese and Non-muslim Bumi relation.

My mother is serani, I do not get the Bumi benefits but I don't live in Malaysia so this really is a non issue.

I do not hate Malays, I believe the policies of the Malaysian govnt, the current changes in malaysia and those who support it is driving a wedge in the Mlaaysian community. I am no longer Malaysian, but I still have close ties to Malaysia. I visit Malaysia at least once per year usually twice, I still have many family members in Malaysia and no matter what esle changes in my life and where I live, Malaysia will always be a the country of my birth. Melbourne is my home and I'm very happy here but JB will always be my home town.

Actually you just did, or don't you have yet to comprehend after the lenghty debates regarding Muslim Malay status in MY?

Affirmative action benefitted Muslim Malays, indigenous (mostly Christianised) people of Sabah & Sarawak.

Ahhh, BTW, in Sabah, if you're Sino-Kadazan (either parents are Kadazan + Chinese marriage), you're a Full-fledged Bumiputra. Strange, but unique.

I'm sorry hailer, but actually, the relationship between Muslim Bumi, non-Muslim Bumi & Chinese are far better compared to race relations in Peninsular MY. Example, a Muslim Bumi with non-Muslim Bumi enjoying meals at a Chinese kopitiam without worrying about halal thingie ... why, cause there a Muslim stall tucked inside the Chinese kopitiam that served Muslim customers that visited the kopitiam. Sarawakian Chinese are really opportunistic lot, thumbs up for them!

You're sampling hardly on any non-Muslim Bumi & Chinese relations. I've been living in Sarawak for 7 yrs, have the opportunity to travel to Sabah on most occasion, have interacted with East Msians irregardless of religious or racial status, I found them to be honest to goodness bunch. The indigenous are devout Christians (either Catholic or Protestant) & often intermarriage between Muslims & Chinese eqyally, although in Sabah, intermarriage between local Chinese & Kadazan actually strengthening both communities.

If you have the chance to go to Kapit in the interior of Sarawak, you'll be surprised with the caramaderie of both Chinese & Iban communities.

The only friction between both Chinese & bumi (Muslims / non-Muslims) only involved Chinese triads vs Bumi gangsters, nothing to shout about.

Hell, there's a case in Kuching where a Chinese triad boss hired Bumi youths to beat up another rival Chinese ah-long aka loanshark ....

No, I was very specific when I said Malays and not Muslim, the fact that most Malays are Muslims is incidental. The NEP benefits Malays specifically and not Muslims, otherwise Chinese Muslims would also benefit and Christian Dayaks, Kadazans, Serani etc would not.

Not quite the ideal coorporation and integration is it.