What do Indonesians think of Israelites...??
I personally think they're great people and i would love to see Indonesia have a diplomatic relationship with the Israelites
They've even made a website in Indonesian to promote Israel to Indonesians
http://jakarta.mfa.gov.il/
Full Version: What do Indonesians Think of Israelites ???
QUOTE(DutchEastIndiesMan @ Jan 8 2008, 02:59 PM) 
What do Indonesians think of Israelites...??
I personally think they're great people and i would love to see Indonesia have a diplomatic relationship with the Israelites
They've even made a website in Indonesian to promote Israel to Indonesians
http://jakarta.mfa.gov.il/
I personally think they're great people and i would love to see Indonesia have a diplomatic relationship with the Israelites
They've even made a website in Indonesian to promote Israel to Indonesians
http://jakarta.mfa.gov.il/
Indonesians still find it difficult to differentiate between Israelis and Jews. As long as the Palestino-Israel conflict has not been solved, it will be difficult for most Indonesians to accept the country of Israel and to have positive thinking toward the Israelis.
I personally also think that Israelis are "normal" people, even sometimes I feel that they are too westernised. So, diplomatic relationship for me is OK, as long as Israel solves their problems with their Arabs neighbours first.
the arabs are jealous lah. jerusalem belongs to the jews initially not the palestinians. so stop bullying the israelis and dont be a thick skinned ppl-arabians- stop trying. you all have been losing for decades to them already.
I think of Israelites as human beings, no more and no less. Like other human beings, there are bad people and good people too among the Israelites, and prejudice won't get you nowhere.
About diplomatic relationship, I support Indonesian government's decision either way. But please be consistent, know where you stand and make sure that everybody know about it, then stand on your ground no matter what.
About diplomatic relationship, I support Indonesian government's decision either way. But please be consistent, know where you stand and make sure that everybody know about it, then stand on your ground no matter what.
facts :
yes most of Indonesian DO HATE Jew in general
we are not APPROVE STATE OF israel/zionism (due to human right and teritorial abuses)
we DONT HAVE diplomatic relationship with Israel (same reason)
facts :
our military discreetly has weapon deal with them.
we have synagogue in sby
some Israeli are managed to get visa to Indonesia due to business reason
our 4th president Gus dur tried to make closer relationship with Israel
yes most of Indonesian DO HATE Jew in general
we are not APPROVE STATE OF israel/zionism (due to human right and teritorial abuses)
we DONT HAVE diplomatic relationship with Israel (same reason)
facts :
our military discreetly has weapon deal with them.
we have synagogue in sby
some Israeli are managed to get visa to Indonesia due to business reason
our 4th president Gus dur tried to make closer relationship with Israel
QUOTE(jrockerz @ Feb 3 2008, 06:28 PM)
facts :
yes most of Indonesian DO HATE Jew in general
we are not APPROVE STATE OF israel/zionism (due to human right and teritorial abuses)
we DONT HAVE diplomatic relationship with Israel (same reason)
facts :
our military discreetly has weapon deal with them.
we have synagogue in sby
some Israeli are managed to get visa to Indonesia due to business reason
our 4th president Gus dur tried to make closer relationship with Israel
yes most of Indonesian DO HATE Jew in general
we are not APPROVE STATE OF israel/zionism (due to human right and teritorial abuses)
we DONT HAVE diplomatic relationship with Israel (same reason)
facts :
our military discreetly has weapon deal with them.
we have synagogue in sby
some Israeli are managed to get visa to Indonesia due to business reason
our 4th president Gus dur tried to make closer relationship with Israel
So whats your point...??? We're not dumb....we know those facts.
why not? they haven't done anything wrong to us. Personally i think indonesians are being childish for not having diplomatic relation with israel. we should be able to decide for ourselves. we are not extensions of palestine or arab saudi. we are our own nation with our own cultures. we dont have relation with them because of one major religion and that religion isn't even originally ours, it's an import, as are the other official religions. politics should be separated with religions. the two should not mix, it's like water and oil. one is dirty and the other is "supposed" to be holy.
and anyway, why should we hate them? when i was still living in indonesia, i have never known let alone met any jewish people. no basis for hatred towards them. it's absurd and ridiculous. i think we should embrace them, they are powerful and smart people, god knows, they were His "chosen ones". but seriously, we could learn a thing or two from them.
but hey, that's just my opinion.
and anyway, why should we hate them? when i was still living in indonesia, i have never known let alone met any jewish people. no basis for hatred towards them. it's absurd and ridiculous. i think we should embrace them, they are powerful and smart people, god knows, they were His "chosen ones". but seriously, we could learn a thing or two from them.
but hey, that's just my opinion.
QUOTE(jakartaninbxl @ Mar 3 2008, 09:58 AM)
why not? they haven't done anything wrong to us. Personally i think indonesians are being childish for not having diplomatic relation with israel. we should be able to decide for ourselves. we are not extensions of palestine or arab saudi. we are our own nation with our own cultures. we dont have relation with them because of one major religion and that religion isn't even originally ours, it's an import, as are the other official religions. politics should be separated with religions. the two should not mix, it's like water and oil. one is dirty and the other is "supposed" to be holy.
and anyway, why should we hate them? when i was still living in indonesia, i have never known let alone met any jewish people. no basis for hatred towards them. it's absurd and ridiculous. i think we should embrace them, they are powerful and smart people, god knows, they were His "chosen ones". but seriously, we could learn a thing or two from them.
but hey, that's just my opinion.
and anyway, why should we hate them? when i was still living in indonesia, i have never known let alone met any jewish people. no basis for hatred towards them. it's absurd and ridiculous. i think we should embrace them, they are powerful and smart people, god knows, they were His "chosen ones". but seriously, we could learn a thing or two from them.
but hey, that's just my opinion.
I hope you dont forget that the main reason behind not having diplomatic ties is Indonesian claim on Israel's colonisation on Palestinian land; not because of religion. The arabs are not well represented in the parliament, for instance. There are racial differentiation in the public laws: jews have more right than the arabs.
About jews as people: they're just people, like us, and they are not God's chosen one (it is their claim not ours). I do not, and most Indonesian too, hate persons, but their frame of thinking. In the same spirit: we do not hate the Islamists per se, we hate their frame of thinking. That's why we still let them live here in Indonesia but we critisize their opinions.
Palestinians in Jordan and Syria have it hard too. They're second rate people in another Arab country. In many ways, Palestinians in the territories have it better. Arab Israeli's have it a LOT better. I think the whole Palestinian issue isn't about the Palestinians. It's about muslim pride, and the fact that Israel has defeated its enemies over and over and over again.
QUOTE(Kresna @ Mar 4 2008, 06:01 PM)
Palestinians in Jordan and Syria have it hard too. They're second rate people in another Arab country. In many ways, Palestinians in the territories have it better. Arab Israeli's have it a LOT better. I think the whole Palestinian issue isn't about the Palestinians. It's about muslim pride, and the fact that Israel has defeated its enemies over and over and over again.
Indeed it's about the feeling of castration of the Muslim Brotherhood that's been going on since the days of the crusades against Christian armies for the key to Jerusalem? An ancient blood feud.
But whatabout the Israeli Brotherhood's claim on their ancestral Jewish homeland? What's your view on that?
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Mar 5 2008, 01:52 AM)
Indeed it's about the feeling of castration of the Muslim Brotherhood that's been going on since the days of the crusades against Christian armies for the key to Jerusalem? An ancient blood feud.
But whatabout the Israeli Brotherhood's claim on their ancestral Jewish homeland? What's your view on that?
But whatabout the Israeli Brotherhood's claim on their ancestral Jewish homeland? What's your view on that?
They have the moral and historical right to be there and exist as a nation. Beyond the ideological factor, one also has to look at certain realities. They're there, and they're so strong that they'll remain exactly where they are. The fault of pro palestinian terrorists is that they don't take that into account. They're fighting a war they'll never win, thereby condemning their own people into eternal suffering.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7C6...15F4FC4D419.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzeTYbQOUJo
for me it sounds like third Reich then holocaust begin.
yes i did.
should i repost again from other thread
and this one is ur reply
my question is how valid Israel area stand for after you see the data i posted before?
their strength credited to western colonialism
and btw
as long as u european commit jew. u could be israeli.
and arab who stay inside israel for decades, their land is taken.
where is happen? Israel
what is your POV of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzeTYbQOUJo
QUOTE
They have the moral and historical right to be there and exist as a nation
for me it sounds like third Reich then holocaust begin.
QUOTE
The fault of pro palestinian terrorists is that they don't take that into account.
yes i did.
should i repost again from other thread
and this one is ur reply
QUOTE
I was specifically talking about the partition act, and how attempts were made to destroy Jewish statehood afterwards.
my question is how valid Israel area stand for after you see the data i posted before?
QUOTE
They're there, and they're so strong that they'll remain exactly where they are
their strength credited to western colonialism
and btw
as long as u european commit jew. u could be israeli.
and arab who stay inside israel for decades, their land is taken.
where is happen? Israel
what is your POV of this?
QUOTE(Kresna @ Mar 5 2008, 04:14 AM)
They have the moral and historical right to be there and exist as a nation. Beyond the ideological factor, one also has to look at certain realities. They're there, and they're so strong that they'll remain exactly where they are. The fault of pro palestinian terrorists is that they don't take that into account. They're fighting a war they'll never win, thereby condemning their own people into eternal suffering.
The first point u made is immoral : what both Palestinians and Israelis are doing is indulge in ultra-ethnic nationalism. If u support that Jews have the moral and historical right to displace the existing arabs there, it will always be a vicious circle of an argument who got there first.
The second point u made is real politik : as long as the Israelis have the might and money to continue fightin, thanks to ultra ethnic nationalist lobby support from all over, including u, i think the war will always continue in the land of Jerusalem.
My point is this : Ultra-ethnic nationalism is what fu-ks nations and peoples up. And both Palestinians and Jews, their supporters and all, are all with blood on their hands so long as they believe that it's morally right to uphold ethnic based political claims.
The Old Testament is a piece of ethnic nationalistic crap... and sometimes, i think those passages in the Qu'ran that gets interpreted as fight to the death against infidels for the muslim sword to reign... that's also ethnic nationalistic crap.
Anyways, i just hate folks who support ethnic nationalism instead of humanist ideals.
QUOTE(jrockerz @ Mar 5 2008, 04:19 AM)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7C6...15F4FC4D419.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzeTYbQOUJo
for me it sounds like third Reich then holocaust begin.
yes i did.
should i repost again from other thread
and this one is ur reply
my question is how valid Israel area stand for after you see the data i posted before?
their strength credited to western colonialism
and btw
as long as u european commit jew. u could be israeli.
and arab who stay inside israel for decades, their land is taken.
where is happen? Israel
what is your POV of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzeTYbQOUJo
for me it sounds like third Reich then holocaust begin.
yes i did.
should i repost again from other thread
and this one is ur reply
my question is how valid Israel area stand for after you see the data i posted before?
their strength credited to western colonialism
and btw
as long as u european commit jew. u could be israeli.
and arab who stay inside israel for decades, their land is taken.
where is happen? Israel
what is your POV of this?
Don't mean to be rude, but I don't really understand this. The point was that Israel was created in a legal way, and that since then they have tried to defend themselves against people who'd wish their destruction as a state. Ofcourse, bad things happened and the Palestinians basically got screwed. But, this all could have been prevented if the Arab powers back then would have been tolerant enough to recognize the self-awareness of the Israeli people. There would've been a Palestine, Jerusalem would not have been under Jewish control, and Israel would be a place with a significant Arab population. I am referring to Israeli independence as proposed by the UN. Something that was violently rejected by the Arabs of that age. In hindsight, Israel has acted as anyone would have. Not that I'm saying that every single breech of human rights can be justified. But do note the absolute and utter hypocrisy when compared to the terrible situation of Palestinians in Jordan and Syria. Why are muslims throughout the world silent about this? And why are they silent as well about the fact that an Israeli-Arab has it amazingly better than a Syrian-Palestinian? Now, looking at the current situation and after all what happened, anti Israeli terrorists do not take into account that they're asking demands that are impossible to fulfill. That is the reason why I can not stomach anti-zionism as it often is presented. It offers ZERO practical solutions for the Palestinian suffering, and it only gives the Israelis more reason to punish Palestinians as a whole.
QUOTE(tangawizi @ Mar 5 2008, 04:27 AM)
The first point u made is immoral : what both Palestinians and Israelis are doing is indulge in ultra-ethnic nationalism. If u support that Jews have the moral and historical right to displace the existing arabs there, it will always be a vicious circle of an argument who got there first.
The second point u made is real politik : as long as the Israelis have the might and money to continue fightin, thanks to ultra ethnic nationalist lobby support from all over, including u, i think the war will always continue in the land of Jerusalem.
My point is this : Ultra-ethnic nationalism is what fu-ks nations and peoples up. And both Palestinians and Jews, their supporters and all, are all with blood on their hands so long as they believe that it's morally right to uphold ethnic based political claims.
The Old Testament is a piece of ethnic nationalistic crap... and sometimes, i think those passages in the Qu'ran that gets interpreted as fight to the death against infidels for the muslim sword to reign... that's also ethnic nationalistic crap.
Anyways, i just hate folks who support ethnic nationalism instead of humanist ideals.
The second point u made is real politik : as long as the Israelis have the might and money to continue fightin, thanks to ultra ethnic nationalist lobby support from all over, including u, i think the war will always continue in the land of Jerusalem.
My point is this : Ultra-ethnic nationalism is what fu-ks nations and peoples up. And both Palestinians and Jews, their supporters and all, are all with blood on their hands so long as they believe that it's morally right to uphold ethnic based political claims.
The Old Testament is a piece of ethnic nationalistic crap... and sometimes, i think those passages in the Qu'ran that gets interpreted as fight to the death against infidels for the muslim sword to reign... that's also ethnic nationalistic crap.
Anyways, i just hate folks who support ethnic nationalism instead of humanist ideals.
You misjudge me. I do not believe that arabs do not have the right to be there. I do believe that because of (recent) historical events Jewish presence in that area has been significant enough to justify a Jewish state. The edges on how that actually happened are imperfect, ofcourse. But the Israeli state from day one has offered proposals for arab coexistence. Even now, Arab-Israeli's have full Israeli citizenship, voting rights, and are even represented in the Knesset, and that's the way it should remain. It is amazing how the Muslim world can use such double standards. Palestinians in Arab countries comes to mind again. Aceh in Indonesia. The Kurds in Turkey. Afghanistan under the Taliban. Iraqis under Saddam Hussein who were attacked with poisonous gas for pete's sake. All cases where people had to suffer just as much, but where it has been met by a deafening silence from the very groups who claim to defend Palestinians' human rights. I do support a Palestinian state and I believe that Arabs have a right to live a dignified life in Israel. But as long as some pro-Palestinian voices continue to argue that Israel should cease to exist, I believe that Israel has the right to defend itself from that. In fact, I think the Israeli state who has and is still offering proposals for Arab coexistence has the moral highground over people who believe it is ok to destroy an entire country.
So all in all, my support for Israel doesn't evolve out of the idea that Jews are God's chosen people, or that Palestinians are bad folks. Instead it comes out of support for a justifiable and undeniable presence of a Jewish nation, and a realistic and fair approach to the freedom of Palestinians. My view is entirely pragmatic.
Unfortunately, such a pragmatic view has been lost for years in the light of ethnic nationalistic leaders like Sharon and Arafat.
If ethnic nationalism isn't your platform, would u entertain the idea that the state of israel and palestine combine to have only the Palestinians in power and runniing the cabinet with just a democratic opposition by the Israelis? hm?
If ethnic nationalism isn't your platform, would u entertain the idea that the state of israel and palestine combine to have only the Palestinians in power and runniing the cabinet with just a democratic opposition by the Israelis? hm?
That thought experiment makes me wonder if any reservations I have about such a government are from my stated belief that internal squabbles would render a Palestinian coalition ineffective, or if I have ethnic biases at the back of my mind.
Interesting.
Interesting.
QUOTE(Kresna @ Mar 5 2008, 12:08 AM)
.... But the Israeli state from day one has offered proposals for arab coexistence. Even now, Arab-Israeli's have full Israeli citizenship, voting rights, and are even represented in the Knesset, and that's the way it should remain. It is amazing how the Muslim world can use such double standards. Palestinians in Arab countries comes to mind again. Aceh in Indonesia. The Kurds in Turkey. Afghanistan under the Taliban. Iraqis under Saddam Hussein who were attacked with poisonous gas for pete's sake. All cases where people had to suffer just as much, but where it has been met by a deafening silence from the very groups who claim to defend Palestinians' human rights. I do support a Palestinian state and I believe that Arabs have a right to live a dignified life in Israel. But as long as some pro-Palestinian voices continue to argue that Israel should cease to exist, I believe that Israel has the right to defend itself from that. In fact, I think the Israeli state who has and is still offering proposals for Arab coexistence has the moral highground over people who believe it is ok to destroy an entire country.
So all in all, my support for Israel doesn't evolve out of the idea that Jews are God's chosen people, or that Palestinians are bad folks. Instead it comes out of support for a justifiable and undeniable presence of a Jewish nation, and a realistic and fair approach to the freedom of Palestinians. My view is entirely pragmatic.
So all in all, my support for Israel doesn't evolve out of the idea that Jews are God's chosen people, or that Palestinians are bad folks. Instead it comes out of support for a justifiable and undeniable presence of a Jewish nation, and a realistic and fair approach to the freedom of Palestinians. My view is entirely pragmatic.
Which isnt entirely accurate. The founding of the state of Israel came with the help by the League of Nations. Befor that they were engage with terrorism against the British and civilians. I presume you never heard of the Irgun Levi & Stern Gang then???? They engaged in plenty of terrrorists acts. Eventually their members became part of the Israeli military and government. Sharon a former member of the Stern Gang for example was a wanted terrorist by the British. So you had former terrorists that became politicians. And you also had former terrorists that became military commanders in the Israeli military.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_Irgun_members
(Not saying a Jewish state doesnt have the right to exist though)
QUOTE(Kresna @ Mar 5 2008, 12:08 AM)
.... Even now, Arab-Israeli's have full Israeli citizenship, voting rights, and are even represented in the Knesset, and that's the way it should remain.
At the same time the complaints of discrimination, being treated as second citiziens is well known. As for being represented in the Knessent many would say they were given as a token gesture.
I have known Asians who have traveld to Israel and they were treated badly I could imagine how someone having an Arab background be treated.
Read also the articles on how Asians are discriminated in Israel.
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...t=0&start=0
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...t=0&start=0
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...t=0&start=0
QUOTE(Kresna @ Mar 5 2008, 12:08 AM)
.... ..It is amazing how the Muslim world can use such double standards. Palestinians in Arab countries comes to mind again. Aceh in Indonesia. The Kurds in Turkey. Afghanistan under the Taliban. Iraqis under Saddam Hussein who were attacked with poisonous gas for pete's sake. All cases where people had to suffer just as much, but where it has been met by a deafening silence from the very groups who claim to defend Palestinians' human rights.
First of all lets make it clear that "the Muslim world" is a broad sweeping definition.
The unfortunate fact is that Palestinians are used as political pawns by certain nations. The Palestinian situation has lasted for decades.
QUOTE(Kresna @ Mar 5 2008, 12:08 AM)
.... But as long as some pro-Palestinian voices continue to argue that Israel should cease to exist, I believe that Israel has the right to defend itself from that. In fact, I think the Israeli state who has and is still offering proposals for Arab coexistence has the moral highground over people who believe it is ok to destroy an entire country.
First all its not ALL Palestinians. Not all are calling for the distruction of Israel. Just some extremist groups are. Just like there are some rightwing Zionist extremist groups in Israel that are calling for the massacre of Palestinians. They dont represent all of Isreal. In both cases the extremist need to be repressed.
Part of the Israel/Palestinian large stumbling block in the negotiation is for the right of return of Palestinians from refugee camps in Lebanon. Just remember not too long ago Israel dismiss the ideal that Palestinians were even a people with thier own ethnic identity.
Keep in mind not all Jews are Zionists. There are infact Jewish groups that oppose Israel. Some believe the state of Israel should have never existed (due to some theological interpetation of the Torah etc.).
Dont get me wrong I do believe both have the right of state hood and existence.
I got a query :
Since it was the UN who created the state of Israel and for some, this will always be construed as a legitimate move, don't u think it would need another UN resolution to create the two state system of Israel and Palestine? Or why is it only the two peoples who get to vote on this matter?
Since it was the UN who created the state of Israel and for some, this will always be construed as a legitimate move, don't u think it would need another UN resolution to create the two state system of Israel and Palestine? Or why is it only the two peoples who get to vote on this matter?
the problem is UN doesnt have much power and it getting weaker and weaker .
some ppl believe UN is already losing its function and being controled.
check this out
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html
what I believe is UN still important, but the role must be much more independent , balanced, competitive and reliable.
which is I don't think they can do that, due to power of veto.
well, right now indonesia doesnt have much power as 1960s,
so i hope they not expecting something miracle or dangerous
....
some ppl believe UN is already losing its function and being controled.
check this out
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/un.html
what I believe is UN still important, but the role must be much more independent , balanced, competitive and reliable.
which is I don't think they can do that, due to power of veto.
well, right now indonesia doesnt have much power as 1960s,
so i hope they not expecting something miracle or dangerous
....
My opinion about Israel is they have right to exist, they are human beings too like us.
But vice versa, they too must recognize the rights of Arab Palestinians. Try to caused less violence and trouble as possible, and please don't be stubborn.
I think we must push aside our labels or any social category and try discover our common value and goal: we are human beings and want to life in peace and harmony. Being a Jew doesn't make them less human than Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or even atheist.
And being an Arab doesn't means they have less right than the Jew to life in holy lands.
I'm muslim and I'm not anti Semitic (hey Arab is Semitic too) or dislike Jew, but oppression, violence and take-over of Arab lands must end somehow. The state of Palestine should be recognized.
Israel should consider the Arab Peace Initiative seriously if they want to have good relations with Arab and whole Islamic world (including Indonesia).
For Indonesia, the issue of opening a diplomatic relationship with Israel is a sensitive matter, especially among muslim Indonesian. We already vow our support for Palestina (yes.., Jakarta have Palestine Embassy). We also enjoyed our relationship with Israel's "nemesis": Iran, Syria, and Lebanon. I think Indonesian govt were afraid if we being (or getting) too close to Israel, it would jeopardize Indonesian interest in Arab world and Islamic world, especially among those Israel enemy countries. What would Indonesia gain if we meddling in Middle eastern conflict? if we made contact with Israel or brokered peacetalk. Boost our prestige or presenting our brand of "tolerant and moderate" Islam?
I think, if Israel want to have "official" diplomatic relationship with Indonesia (considering unofficial relationship is "already" took place), the state of Palestine must officially and internationally recognize first. And I think Arab Peace Initiative is the appealing solutions.
Imagine, if this peace initiation bears success, Israel would enjoy peace and good relationship with Arab and Islamic world, from Marocco to Indonesia, from Azerbaijan to Somalia.
But vice versa, they too must recognize the rights of Arab Palestinians. Try to caused less violence and trouble as possible, and please don't be stubborn.
I think we must push aside our labels or any social category and try discover our common value and goal: we are human beings and want to life in peace and harmony. Being a Jew doesn't make them less human than Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or even atheist.
And being an Arab doesn't means they have less right than the Jew to life in holy lands.
I'm muslim and I'm not anti Semitic (hey Arab is Semitic too) or dislike Jew, but oppression, violence and take-over of Arab lands must end somehow. The state of Palestine should be recognized.
Israel should consider the Arab Peace Initiative seriously if they want to have good relations with Arab and whole Islamic world (including Indonesia).
QUOTE
The Arab Peace Initiative (Arabic Language: مبادرة السلام العربية) is a peace initiative first proposed by then crown prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, in the Beirut Summit of the Arab League. The peace initiative is a proposed solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict as a whole, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in particular. The initiative obtained the unanimous consent of all members of the Arab League.
The initiative was initially published on 28 March 2002 at the Beirut Summit, and again endorsed at the Riyadh Summit in 2007.
The Plan
The plan is considered a progressive proposal to end the Arab-Israeli conflict. It offered Israel normalization of relations and comprehensive peace agreements with Arab countries in exchange for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from all the Occupied Territories, including the Golan Heights, the recognition of "an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital" in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as a "just solution" for the Palestinian refugees.
The initiative is based upon:
1. The principle of Land for peace.
2. The conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties.
The goals of the initiative are:
1. Full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967
2. Implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions 242 and 338.
3. The establishment of an independent Palestinian state, with East Jerusalem as its capital
4. A just solution to the Palestinian Refugee problem, to be agreed upon in accordance with section 11 of UN General Assembly Resolution 194.
5. The normalization of relations in the context of a comprehensive peace
The somewhat obscure 4th section was inserted at Lebanese insistence and reflects its concern that the settlement of the refugee problem not be at what it considers the expense of Lebanon and its "demographic balance."
The initiative was initially published on 28 March 2002 at the Beirut Summit, and again endorsed at the Riyadh Summit in 2007.
The Plan
The plan is considered a progressive proposal to end the Arab-Israeli conflict. It offered Israel normalization of relations and comprehensive peace agreements with Arab countries in exchange for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from all the Occupied Territories, including the Golan Heights, the recognition of "an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital" in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as a "just solution" for the Palestinian refugees.
The initiative is based upon:
1. The principle of Land for peace.
2. The conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties.
The goals of the initiative are:
1. Full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967
2. Implementation of United Nations Security Council resolutions 242 and 338.
3. The establishment of an independent Palestinian state, with East Jerusalem as its capital
4. A just solution to the Palestinian Refugee problem, to be agreed upon in accordance with section 11 of UN General Assembly Resolution 194.
5. The normalization of relations in the context of a comprehensive peace
The somewhat obscure 4th section was inserted at Lebanese insistence and reflects its concern that the settlement of the refugee problem not be at what it considers the expense of Lebanon and its "demographic balance."
For Indonesia, the issue of opening a diplomatic relationship with Israel is a sensitive matter, especially among muslim Indonesian. We already vow our support for Palestina (yes.., Jakarta have Palestine Embassy). We also enjoyed our relationship with Israel's "nemesis": Iran, Syria, and Lebanon. I think Indonesian govt were afraid if we being (or getting) too close to Israel, it would jeopardize Indonesian interest in Arab world and Islamic world, especially among those Israel enemy countries. What would Indonesia gain if we meddling in Middle eastern conflict? if we made contact with Israel or brokered peacetalk. Boost our prestige or presenting our brand of "tolerant and moderate" Islam?
I think, if Israel want to have "official" diplomatic relationship with Indonesia (considering unofficial relationship is "already" took place), the state of Palestine must officially and internationally recognize first. And I think Arab Peace Initiative is the appealing solutions.
Imagine, if this peace initiation bears success, Israel would enjoy peace and good relationship with Arab and Islamic world, from Marocco to Indonesia, from Azerbaijan to Somalia.
QUOTE(Majapahitans @ Mar 10 2008, 04:44 AM)
My opinion about Israel is they have right to exist, they are human beings too like us.
But vice versa, they too must recognize the rights of Arab Palestinians. Try to caused less violence and trouble as possible, and please don't be stubborn.
I think we must push aside our labels or any social category and try discover our common value and goal: we are human beings and want to life in peace and harmony. Being a Jew doesn't make them less human than Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or even atheist.
And being an Arab doesn't means they have less right than the Jew to life in holy lands.
I'm muslim and I'm not anti Semitic (hey Arab is Semitic too) or dislike Jew, but oppression, violence and take-over of Arab lands must end somehow. The state of Palestine should be recognized.
Israel should consider the Arab Peace Initiative seriously if they want to have good relations with Arab and whole Islamic world (including Indonesia).
For Indonesia, the issue of opening a diplomatic relationship with Israel is a sensitive matter, especially among muslim Indonesian. We already vow our support for Palestina (yes.., Jakarta have Palestine Embassy). We also enjoyed our relationship with Israel's "nemesis": Iran, Syria, and Lebanon. I think Indonesian govt were afraid if we being (or getting) too close to Israel, it would jeopardize Indonesian interest in Arab world and Islamic world, especially among those Israel enemy countries. What would Indonesia gain if we meddling in Middle eastern conflict? if we made contact with Israel or brokered peacetalk. Boost our prestige or presenting our brand of "tolerant and moderate" Islam?
I think, if Israel want to have "official" diplomatic relationship with Indonesia (considering unofficial relationship is "already" took place), the state of Palestine must officially and internationally recognize first. And I think Arab Peace Initiative is the appealing solutions.
Imagine, if this peace initiation bears success, Israel would enjoy peace and good relationship with Arab and Islamic world, from Marocco to Indonesia, from Azerbaijan to Somalia.
But vice versa, they too must recognize the rights of Arab Palestinians. Try to caused less violence and trouble as possible, and please don't be stubborn.
I think we must push aside our labels or any social category and try discover our common value and goal: we are human beings and want to life in peace and harmony. Being a Jew doesn't make them less human than Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or even atheist.
And being an Arab doesn't means they have less right than the Jew to life in holy lands.
I'm muslim and I'm not anti Semitic (hey Arab is Semitic too) or dislike Jew, but oppression, violence and take-over of Arab lands must end somehow. The state of Palestine should be recognized.
Israel should consider the Arab Peace Initiative seriously if they want to have good relations with Arab and whole Islamic world (including Indonesia).
For Indonesia, the issue of opening a diplomatic relationship with Israel is a sensitive matter, especially among muslim Indonesian. We already vow our support for Palestina (yes.., Jakarta have Palestine Embassy). We also enjoyed our relationship with Israel's "nemesis": Iran, Syria, and Lebanon. I think Indonesian govt were afraid if we being (or getting) too close to Israel, it would jeopardize Indonesian interest in Arab world and Islamic world, especially among those Israel enemy countries. What would Indonesia gain if we meddling in Middle eastern conflict? if we made contact with Israel or brokered peacetalk. Boost our prestige or presenting our brand of "tolerant and moderate" Islam?
I think, if Israel want to have "official" diplomatic relationship with Indonesia (considering unofficial relationship is "already" took place), the state of Palestine must officially and internationally recognize first. And I think Arab Peace Initiative is the appealing solutions.
Imagine, if this peace initiation bears success, Israel would enjoy peace and good relationship with Arab and Islamic world, from Marocco to Indonesia, from Azerbaijan to Somalia.
nice point by Majapahitans.
yes Indonesia want to be recognise in the international stage specialy as a peace broker and promoter.
if indonesia wanted to broker peace between Israel and Palestinian, Indonesia have to be in the midle. thats mean communicating to both parties. which mean having diplomatic relation with both parties. it is imposible to broker a peace treaty if you only talk to one party. n the gov of Indonesia knew this too well.
i think so anyway..
I never ever liked this one small country
^^ care to elaborate ?
No.
Because I can't stand what they're doing to the Palts.
If you have Israeli friends, it's okay. They're nice people. Hell, I have several. Granted we never talk about politics. Hey! Why ruin a friendship over that?
The not nice people over there colonize the West Bank & Golan heights. They get orgasm killing old women & children (like Netanyahu)
My friend lives in Haifa.
I don't agree with this diplomatic thing because I don't think it will help the Palts' cause. Look at Egypt & Jordan, they have diplo relations & get $$$ from US. The Palts have bullets & bombs with their names on them.
When & not if or before, the Palts got their freedom back, I don't see why we can't have normal relationship with the Israelis. Before that, If the relationship is between person to person, I have no objection whatsoever...
BTW: I remember very well the two pieces of TV news I watched the first time. Anybody remember "Dunia Dalam Berita" (World in News) of TVRI? I was 5 when I saw that. First one was Iran-Iraq war with rockets blaring. That was back in '87, see how world changed? The second piece begun with the word "Kaum zionis Israel..." The Israeli zionists... & then to an israeli soldier in olive uniform kicking the $hit out of a Palt boy. the boy was just a teen & already laying on the street. the surrounding was smoky, bright, brown, dusty... 21 years later nothing has changed...
I never warmed to Israel after that...
Because I can't stand what they're doing to the Palts.
If you have Israeli friends, it's okay. They're nice people. Hell, I have several. Granted we never talk about politics. Hey! Why ruin a friendship over that?
The not nice people over there colonize the West Bank & Golan heights. They get orgasm killing old women & children (like Netanyahu)
My friend lives in Haifa.
I don't agree with this diplomatic thing because I don't think it will help the Palts' cause. Look at Egypt & Jordan, they have diplo relations & get $$$ from US. The Palts have bullets & bombs with their names on them.
When & not if or before, the Palts got their freedom back, I don't see why we can't have normal relationship with the Israelis. Before that, If the relationship is between person to person, I have no objection whatsoever...
BTW: I remember very well the two pieces of TV news I watched the first time. Anybody remember "Dunia Dalam Berita" (World in News) of TVRI? I was 5 when I saw that. First one was Iran-Iraq war with rockets blaring. That was back in '87, see how world changed? The second piece begun with the word "Kaum zionis Israel..." The Israeli zionists... & then to an israeli soldier in olive uniform kicking the $hit out of a Palt boy. the boy was just a teen & already laying on the street. the surrounding was smoky, bright, brown, dusty... 21 years later nothing has changed...
I never warmed to Israel after that...
QUOTE(vsovereign @ Apr 7 2008, 12:58 PM)
No.
Because I can't stand what they're doing to the Palts.
If you have Israeli friends, it's okay. They're nice people. Hell, I have several. Granted we never talk about politics. Hey! Why ruin a friendship over that?
The not nice people over there colonize the West Bank & Golan heights. They get orgasm killing old women & children (like Netanyahu)
My friend lives in Haifa.
I don't agree with this diplomatic thing because I don't think it will help the Palts' cause. Look at Egypt & Jordan, they have diplo relations & get $$$ from US. The Palts have bullets & bombs with their names on them.
When & not if or before, the Palts got their freedom back, I don't see why we can't have normal relationship with the Israelis. Before that, If the relationship is between person to person, I have no objection whatsoever...
BTW: I remember very well the two pieces of TV news I watched the first time. Anybody remember "Dunia Dalam Berita" (World in News) of TVRI? I was 5 when I saw that. First one was Iran-Iraq war with rockets blaring. That was back in '87, see how world changed? The second piece begun with the word "Kaum zionis Israel..." The Israeli zionists... & then to an israeli soldier in olive uniform kicking the $hit out of a Palt boy. the boy was just a teen & already laying on the street. the surrounding was smoky, bright, brown, dusty... 21 years later nothing has changed...
I never warmed to Israel after that...
Because I can't stand what they're doing to the Palts.
If you have Israeli friends, it's okay. They're nice people. Hell, I have several. Granted we never talk about politics. Hey! Why ruin a friendship over that?
The not nice people over there colonize the West Bank & Golan heights. They get orgasm killing old women & children (like Netanyahu)
My friend lives in Haifa.
I don't agree with this diplomatic thing because I don't think it will help the Palts' cause. Look at Egypt & Jordan, they have diplo relations & get $$$ from US. The Palts have bullets & bombs with their names on them.
When & not if or before, the Palts got their freedom back, I don't see why we can't have normal relationship with the Israelis. Before that, If the relationship is between person to person, I have no objection whatsoever...
BTW: I remember very well the two pieces of TV news I watched the first time. Anybody remember "Dunia Dalam Berita" (World in News) of TVRI? I was 5 when I saw that. First one was Iran-Iraq war with rockets blaring. That was back in '87, see how world changed? The second piece begun with the word "Kaum zionis Israel..." The Israeli zionists... & then to an israeli soldier in olive uniform kicking the $hit out of a Palt boy. the boy was just a teen & already laying on the street. the surrounding was smoky, bright, brown, dusty... 21 years later nothing has changed...
I never warmed to Israel after that...
I understand where you come from, I myself feel sorry to the palestinian.
but having said that, they (palestinian) have to get their act together in oder to win diplomatic support or war against israel as any other strugling nation done and does. they will not be able to win the war or diplomatic support if keep bickering amongs themself. Indonesia wont be here today if para pejuang masa lalu tidak bersatu. so bersatu is the maik key to the palestinian to reach their goal. well at least as a first step.
QUOTE(vsovereign @ Apr 8 2008, 01:58 AM)
No.
Because I can't stand what they're doing to the Palts.
If you have Israeli friends, it's okay. They're nice people. Hell, I have several. Granted we never talk about politics. Hey! Why ruin a friendship over that?
The not nice people over there colonize the West Bank & Golan heights. They get orgasm killing old women & children (like Netanyahu)
My friend lives in Haifa.
I don't agree with this diplomatic thing because I don't think it will help the Palts' cause. Look at Egypt & Jordan, they have diplo relations & get $$$ from US. The Palts have bullets & bombs with their names on them.
When & not if or before, the Palts got their freedom back, I don't see why we can't have normal relationship with the Israelis. Before that, If the relationship is between person to person, I have no objection whatsoever...
BTW: I remember very well the two pieces of TV news I watched the first time. Anybody remember "Dunia Dalam Berita" (World in News) of TVRI? I was 5 when I saw that. First one was Iran-Iraq war with rockets blaring. That was back in '87, see how world changed? The second piece begun with the word "Kaum zionis Israel..." The Israeli zionists... & then to an israeli soldier in olive uniform kicking the $hit out of a Palt boy. the boy was just a teen & already laying on the street. the surrounding was smoky, bright, brown, dusty... 21 years later nothing has changed...
I never warmed to Israel after that...
Because I can't stand what they're doing to the Palts.
If you have Israeli friends, it's okay. They're nice people. Hell, I have several. Granted we never talk about politics. Hey! Why ruin a friendship over that?
The not nice people over there colonize the West Bank & Golan heights. They get orgasm killing old women & children (like Netanyahu)
My friend lives in Haifa.
I don't agree with this diplomatic thing because I don't think it will help the Palts' cause. Look at Egypt & Jordan, they have diplo relations & get $$$ from US. The Palts have bullets & bombs with their names on them.
When & not if or before, the Palts got their freedom back, I don't see why we can't have normal relationship with the Israelis. Before that, If the relationship is between person to person, I have no objection whatsoever...
BTW: I remember very well the two pieces of TV news I watched the first time. Anybody remember "Dunia Dalam Berita" (World in News) of TVRI? I was 5 when I saw that. First one was Iran-Iraq war with rockets blaring. That was back in '87, see how world changed? The second piece begun with the word "Kaum zionis Israel..." The Israeli zionists... & then to an israeli soldier in olive uniform kicking the $hit out of a Palt boy. the boy was just a teen & already laying on the street. the surrounding was smoky, bright, brown, dusty... 21 years later nothing has changed...
I never warmed to Israel after that...
Ahh but you do have to also think about the horrible things the Palestinians did to those Israelis civilians and also without Israeli,Indonesia's secret service, air defence and Kopassus wouldn't be as good as it is today.
One man's freedom fighter is one man's terrorist.
QUOTE(DutchEastIndiesMan @ Apr 9 2008, 03:36 AM)
Ahh but you do have to also think about the horrible things the Palestinians did to those Israelis civilians and also without Israeli,Indonesia's secret service, air defence and Kopassus wouldn't be as good as it is today.
One man's freedom fighter is one man's terrorist.
One man's freedom fighter is one man's terrorist.
I already picked my hero thank you very much. I you want to call him terrorist is up to you.
Horrible things the Palts did to the Israelis? & what is that? defending yourself from being bulldozed over? sending qassams when Israelis already launching tomahawks? 1000 libs died in the 2006 war compare to 100 israelis. 1500 palts died since intifadah began, compare to 100 israelis.
NO
I pick my heroes alright! the downtrodden and the oppressed, the palts...as for secret service?
our unintelligent intelligence service missed a group of kids dancing with the South Mollucca flag in front of the president!
if that is israelis' help & I think we don't need more help. besides, who knows, the israelis might be intentionally making our intel dumb...
^^Why do you have to be so negative on everything ??? Australia, BIN, Israel and who knows...maybe even UAE.
It was not the secret service....it was the the police.
I never impinge my views on you...I'm just saying what i think. You gotta be transparent here. I cbb to reply with that anymore, I'll let you rage for a while...very amusing.
It was not the secret service....it was the the police.
I never impinge my views on you...I'm just saying what i think. You gotta be transparent here. I cbb to reply with that anymore, I'll let you rage for a while...very amusing.
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