surfing a site recommended by sweet misery i found an very interesting article that might interest foreigners and expats a like.

Losing Face

As Westerners, we do not know what this means. We use the words ‘embarrassed,’ ‘shy’ and even ‘ashamed,’ but none of these come close to the meaning behind the words in Filipino languages that are translated to the English words mentioned above. The Philippines, as well as other Asian countries, have a predominately ‘Shame/Honor’ culture. This means that interactions at all levels are about people being treated with respect, and people being honored appropriately and preserving each others ‘face.’ It is also about avoiding dishonor, avoiding situations where one would look foolish, or have their ignorance exposed, or be made to look small, or be exposed as having no power, or being made the brunt of ridicule, etc. To have any of these things happen is to lose face. Losing face has driven people to leave a job, to move to another city, to drop out of school, to get into a big fight, to stab someone, to exact subtle revenge and to commit suicide. Honor and shame are serious business. Losing face is like a punch to the solar plexus, and can cause an entire family or clan to rise up in anger on behalf of the injured party.



When we Westerners get into an argument with a fellow Westerner, the issues are usually about who did what, who is right and who is wrong, guilt or innocence, winning or losing. Shouting or name calling is considered rude and poor form, but not equivalent to a stabbing. A Westerner who doesn’t like the way he is being treated by someone says, “He’s got a problem!” or “Who needs this?” or “I’m outta here!” We may get our feelings hurt, but for the most part, we can decide not to make it personal in one way or another by thinking, “He was having a bad day!” or “We won’t talk about that topic again.” or “He’s got an anger problem” etc. We like to win an argument, we like to be treated with respect, but these things to not determine ‘who we are’ in society. The things that really push our button are when people infringe on what we consider ‘OUR RIGHTS,’ or when we are falsely accused of committing some wrong. East meets west when the thing we have done wrong is a serious offense here, and not an offense at all in our home country, like causing someone to lose face. We don’t get it. We can’t believe that such a small thing as calling someone an idiot, or tapping a flight attendant on the head with a magazine, rebuking the lady who cuts in line, or telling the bank manager what you think of the system would even matter! We feel falsely accused and proceed to demand our rights…. And make things much worse.



This whole issue of losing face and our difficulty as Westerners in understanding it is complicated by the Filipino social rule that demands ‘smooth interpersonal relationships’ (SIR). The Westerner can be sailing along, offending people right and left, and not have a clue. Why? Because people keep smiling and acting like everything is just fine. All the Filipinos in the situation will know what is going on, because to them, the signs are obvious: smiles that are ‘plastic’ and never reach the eyes, tight body movements, short sentences, avoiding eye contact, avoiding social contact, eye-rolling behind the back, and often, increased requests or demands (to make you pay for what you did). Think about it. What if this is going on with several members of a family, and the wife is trying to help her husband understand by saying things like, “ I think you hurt my father’s feelings.” Or “Maybe my brother didn’t like what you said to him.” But the clueless foreign husband blows it off saying, “What? I didn’t say anything to him! We were just talking, for pity sake! Why is he so sensitive? He needs to get a grip!” Things will go from bad to worse.



A learner’s attitude is in order here and a little humility. If you find yourself in this sort of situation, believe the person telling you there is a problem, and be grateful. Don’t defend yourself. Accept the fact that you are pretty clueless. Ask questions until you have an idea of who is offended and why. Realize that you will probably never understand how that person feels, or ever feel that way yourself, but if you value the relationship, you need to take responsibility for that person’s feelings and apologize for what you said or did (even if it doesn’t seem wrong). Lose a little face yourself. Pride and bluster will not win the day.



In the next couple posts I will tell some “East meets West” stories which you may find interesting and helpful.

Any thought about this?

Asians in general are very sensitive people who value what people think of them. This is because Asians belong to a collective type of society where everyone must belong and to an extent conform to the society’s standards and norms. The ‘independence’ of opinion can be seen as being divisive and uncooperative, or worse rebellious. Nowadays though, we see more and more Asians coming out of the open, but only in the urban areas where independence is slowly being tolerated.

I myself am a strong willed, independent, and vocal woman, and I was previously in the IT industry which is a man’s world of course in the Philippines. A lot of people put me in the liberated woman box and I was seen as someone not very desirable by local men’s standards because I challenge the society’s values and norms. I always get into a discussion because of my differing opinion, mindset, and lifestyle, and in the end I am always being judged for the same reasons. At any rate, I got used to it after some time and just ignored the judgments. I guess I lost a lot of face(s), many times!

You say it as if you are proud of imposing your values on a entirely different culture.

Sometimes this "proverb" When in Pinas do as the Filipinos" actually work, if you want to be a part of society. (witch i think everybody to a certain degree wants)

This "loose face" mentality is not an eastern thing. You have people here in the west who are also sensitive the same way filipinos are. There people here that gets into fights because someone stepped on their shoes, or someone looked at them wrong, butted in a line. People are people, we are all the same. People often generalized westerners are rude, obnoxious, dont have a sense of respect to a culture but that is not the case. People are all the same. There are sensitive people and there are rude people both east AND west.

Being mindful of your environment is not a group issue but an individual.

That's the human nature!!

This the best thread I've ever seen started on AF.

It is a great relief to hear that what I learned in Thailand about the value of face in one's self and others is also a Filipino cultural aspect, much the same from what you wrote, Masipag.

So often the westerners I've met over in LOS (if you'll excuse my reference to another nation because it's been my only experience) try to knock the culture that they live in as liars, when in fact it is more a matter of, 'If you can't say something nice, then stfu.'

The old cliched example I always refer to was the book, 'Pulling Your Own String.' by Wayne Dwyer or Dyer (I forget his surname and middle initial) and it became a trend in many western countries to learn to become more 'assertive'. This means that you have to tell everyone every little bad thing you think about them to show them that you're fully assertive with yourself. In Thailand this will get you quickly shot at close range. I am glad to hear that The Philippines might have a similar sort of system of social interaction for what it brings in the end is harmony.

It is a huge subject. Sometimes it can be a little frustrating to have to hold your tongue when you see something you want to say about something you might not be satisfied with, but once you tell someone something derogatory in public, even if it is the truth as you see it, the loss of face you have just brought on that person is something that some westerners seem to place no value on whatsoever.

One example that I remember was down at a place on the River Chanthaburi where I used to stay every time I needed to go over to Cambodia from Thailand. I got to know the manageress fairly well after a few checkins, and she'd always keep a little styrene esky (icebox) out the back for me when I checked in so that I could keep cold beers in my room and have a cold iced coffee in the morning - we were fairly good mates, Lam and I.

So one day she came up to the fourth floor and asked me if I could help to translate between English and Thai because she had a problem guest from New York, judging by his accent. An hour later I was just coming down the stairs to go out and there he was in the foyer, testing his assertiveness out on the manageress, Lam. He had paid for a month's stay to save 4,000 baht, but 17 days into that month, he wanted to change his mind and move out because he said that some hospital was about to admit him for cosmetic surgery so he wanted half his money back on the month's rent that he had willingly paid for to save around $100 USD over the month.

As if his system of doing business wasn't bad enough for that in itself, when I wandered over to the lounge beside the reception desk and picked up a newspaper to pretend to be unaware of Lam's request, but listen before stepping up to the plate as such, the thing that was the most noticable about this wanker was the way that he was sticking his finger out and pointing at her really aggressively with every sylabble he was shouting. In Thailand, you NEVER EVER point your finger at someone, especially at head height! Poor Lam was really frightened by this time because she had probably never had someone so uncouth in her life before. Eventually when I got up to try to translate her adequate English into American, (he heard what she was saying), he turned on me which was some relief for her. My problem, he told me, was that I didn't stick up for him as a foreigner when I should have been on his side against the guest house. How assertive is that? How faceless is that?

It turns out he called the tourist police and got a token 2,000 baht refund he didn't deserve. The whole hospital story was a lie because I saw him riding his Yamaha around the market with a whore on the pillion seat two days later. Lying cheating faceless fool. I wonder if anyone's bothered to shoot him by now?

Maintaining the face of yourself and others you encounter in life is so much more harmonic than foolish assertiveness, and if the west could learn just one thing from the east, then face would be the one.

yes! my classmate do... he gets mad whenever i steped on his shoes... uhmm i think French are most rude than any other westerners! corrct me if i'm wrong! just a 15 year old guy....

although I think avoiding a hiya violation is very important and brings also personal life to a higher level, there is one very big question.

what can be done, when a society wants to develop, but same moment thousands of apparatchik morons who hold their positions beccause of age and family fame (which can be a problem in western governments also *eg*) do nothing but f-ck it up?

formal harmony is not a meaningful value when the ship sinks.
but speaking out starts long before, or DO you want the ship to sink because of "face"?

there is truth in the mentioned issues above, but something about that all is just very cheap and shallow:
EGO...!
the person who takes revenge for losing face should be judged as an ego-addicted moose exactly WHEN the critical words uttered against him hold material truth and are NOT full with verbal injury and insulting expressions.

I see it this way because harmony has already been violated in a detrimental way, though beneath the surface, when some responsible person took wrong decisions or was utterly lazy.


some discussions here are quite funny, students insult each other every day.
what about the new hip-hop attitude of ritual "dissing", it has reached asian countries since years.
but - when does it start to become a serious conflict, how destructive can the ego-factor become, just for minor issues?
how loyal should the family and comrades be at all when an overly verbose member is quite an @$$hole?
what to do, if one sees it as humor and the other feels very hurt and angry? what makes the "environment" walk in favor of one OR the other person?
it is very necessary for the forthcoming of a culture, that judgement is not always with the side of better reputation or "power", but with the real, material facts - isn't it so?
(this is also a value of "enlightenment" and one of the positive outcomes of the "french revolution")

--------
the complaining hotel guest is a very negative specimen, but anyway he did follow his capitalist vision of getting out the "max". the material facts are that he wanted to sell the booked days that he did not need no more. his fault was that he behaved extremely bad and obnoxious when he was not successful.
but the ground of the conflict was pure business negotiation (which he obviously was not capable of).

so the other question is, how far should people go for "business" ?
we can't criticise greedy demands from greedy people without criticising capitalism that breeds that behaviour all the time.

the challenge is, what system of economy and negotiation can be developed that can compete with the despised "western way" in material matters, that eventually count. - to be or not to be..
and the west needs this change also, because there is too much friction and also speed in the current ways, the masses can no more get along with that, and the accumulation of power and wealth is a problem in both hemispheres.

don't you think that "the powers that be" do everything, to keep in place a very strict rule of face?

Its not about 'imposing' - its about having 'your own identity'. That is the difference.

Your comment is truly an example of a 'collective mentality'. I guess I can only say, we are all different. Not all Filipinos eat the same type of rice. Not all Filipinos swim in the same lake. Not all Filipinos ride the same jeepney.

You can be part of the society without having to conform with everything. You always have the option to 'respect' (and not observe). Philippine society should learn to accommodate different individuals and not mould everyone into the same person.