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Rules
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1. Only comment after you've seen it.
2. Be serious.
3. No racist remarks

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Since Indonesia has the largest muslim population.
I wanted to know the views of Indonesians on the islam.

This is a video about "What the West needs to know".
It will explain the ways of the islam, about world domination and the "good and the bad sides".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P7Y_moX1V0...&playnext=1

It's set on playlist, so after the first part it will continue to the second and so on.

I thought it was very informative.
I like history alot and different cultures but I never read about the crusades.

If you have the time, watch it, it's worth it.

Let me remind you, I'm not here to say the islam is a bad religion or a good one.
I'm neutral for that matter.
I just want to know what this video did to you, how your view about the islam is right after the video.

So what do you think of the Islam after seeing this?
Does it change your opinion, about the islam?
Do you think something is not correct on what they state?
And what do you think about this whole documentary (if I can call it like that)?

then u shuld read about crusader , the most interesting part is during king richard and salahadin era.

Im sorry some part I don't understand due to dutch subtitle in non english footage.
and i haven't fully watch it

this is my post at AF clan might help a little
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...0&start=680

My view is that this Documentary intends to convince the viewers that the terrorists are following the original brand of Islam as taught by Mohammed in the earliest days. And that therefore the original way Islam was taught was not really the so-called peaceful religion of compassion. I feel that this is a misleading because Islam has evolved from the time of Mohammad since the 7th century and it is STILL EVOLVING.

My opinion about Islam is that it is a religious movement that has always been used by oppressed peoples to unite in an universal brotherhood to fight against their perceived oppressors. This has happened from the time of Mohammad (when he was fighting for his life and those of his clan members against the richer and more powerful Quraysh clan). And throughout history, Islam has arrived to new lands where the oppressed folks have utilised the teachings in the Quran to rise above their caste or feudal system... from Central Asia to India all the way to Indonesia.

Right now, Islam is again being the medium where Middle Eastern folks are trying to use as the platform to unite against what is perceived as Western exploitation of their resources and holy land (Saudi Arabia, Israel, Palestine, Kuwait, Iraq).

Any Abrahamaic Religion that starts out in the beginning always have a Bloody and Violent history. If u really want to know about Christianity, when Jesus died, all the christian gentiles were bloodily wiped out by the Romans for almost 300 years before the Roman Emperor Constantine in Constantinople (now Istanbul) decided to proclaim it as the religion for the Holy Roman Empire. Emperor Constantine made christianity the official religion of the kingdom, to replace paganism, as an attempt to have a unified belief that would unite all the myraid Roman tribes and citizens throughout the decaying empire. At that time of 300AD, the Holy Roman Empire was in danger of collapse due to the ravages by the Germans (barbarians) who were pagans. The Emperor Constantine was smart to crown himself the first christian king in history. There were alot of purges and campaigns against the pagans to convert to christianity after that to ensure the loyalty of the european chieftains to the Holy Roman Emperor. And later on, the Roman Empire's powerbase shifted to Italy, where the Pope created a strong papacy institution to control and command the loyalty of the European houses. And the various Inquisition by christians against heretics is well known and well documented.

I can start going on about Jewish religion's bloody and violent beginnings too... but this is going way too off-topic.

My own opinion is that both Christianity and its older counterpart Judaism continue to be violent religions, much like Islam, all because of their desperate attempts to uphold their territorial claims to the Holy land in Jerusalem. This is from way back the days of the Crusades in the 10th century. Do u know whythe crusades took place in the first place? it was a way to spend the excess energy for fighting and hunger for power by the European princes. It was smart move to channel their energy to fight and die for God to reclaim Jerusalem from the heretics, rather than stay in their european castles and plot rebellions against their monarchs.

Christianity today tries to paint itself as non-violent, but the fact is, there are right-wing christian movements that are just as aggressive in their aims to spread their muscle across the globe. GW Bush happens to style himself as one such leader. But nowadays, more importantly than the Holyland, it's also Black Gold that's the motivating factor for continuing the crusades.

Manga, you say that:



Let me just say this, if you really want to be NEUTRAL about religion, you should not talk like those idiots Tony Blair or GW Bush that "Islam is a peaceful religion we have nothing against Islam and muslim, this is not a war against Islam... blah blah...".

Instead, you should understand the historical evolution of all 3 Abrahamaic religions how they all began with a Bloody and Violent beginning and became used as a political tool to command loyalty and rule over their subjects.

That's all i have to say about your video link.

It's not that neutral a documentary to be honest, because it should go further to make us understand how all three Abrahamaic religions have an intertwined history of Violence and Bloodshed. And we are just seeing the continuation of this violent history that continues to evolve...

All three religions have evolved compassionate and peaceful elements Christianity (mystic fathers), Judaism (kabbalism) or Islam (sufism). But they have not made it to the mainstream because throughout history of mankind, religion is the only thing that can make a man leave his wife and children behind to kill another man making his wife a widow and his children orphans (if he survives he gets women + booty in the form of war gains and annual tax/tribute to his chief). Because to die in the name of God and enter paradise (or if u survive u got women + booty) is a very powerful n persuasive thing. And it will always continue to be.

My role in life is not to blame one people or one country or one religion, but to critically see where each party's faults lie. It's easier for people to reconcile their differences and for hatreds to dissolve when the faults of both parties are laid open on the table. I do not believe this thing that there has to be a winner and a loser in life. And what we are seeing today is not about Christian values versus Islamic values. It's about humanity and how the people that "have" tends to want to control the people who "don't have".

We need to narrow that have-have not gap, instead of sitting on our backsides listening to so-called experts telling us in double dutch how Islam is a violent religion and which hadiths support that violence.

its okay tanga, I like to see different kind of view.

it might going Off topic a bit :

the history when islam spread in indonesia is pretty interesting.
it brought by chinese and arab merchant.

the 9 noble saints are mostly chinese.

the way it spread are from marriage, and wayang kulit show.
at that time even tho indonesia is buddhist, but most of people still practice animism.

majapahit at that time declined, losing its glory by poor governmental ....
when islam arrived also they are losing follower.

until now, we even still keep majapahit basic ideology, binneka tuggal ika, unity in diversity


back :

during the Muhammad era, before Islam arrived, (muhammad youth),
arab was very violent, corrupt, disoriented, rape, etc

thats why Islam arrived in arab. to reorient human into the right path from the one of the most dark age era.
during Muhammad glory in Islam, there was the most tolerant in arab era.
after He died, just like human, his follower are disbanded and separated in different sect.
some of them are tolerant some is radical, and most of them has political agenda., thats why now we see different sect, just like you see chatolic, protestant, and orthodox.

Islam is flexible, for example, when you perform praying(sholat).
if you cant stand(eg :disability) you can sit, if you cant sit you can lay, if you cant even say the verse due to illness or something else, you can do in ur mind.
and you may check this kind of praying flexibility in major Islam teaching in the world.

but seems world repeat the history backward. when flexibility become stiff and iron fist.

hey jrockerz, i am not a world expert in religion. however, the history of religion has fascinated me alot and i have learnt about hte history of all the 3 major religion and buddhism... now i am into Hinduism because of my yoga practice and meditation.

all i can say is that the arab world was a violent place before the Prophet revealed the true teachings of Allah to the tribes there. But the peace didn't last long because even the succession to the Prophet was quite a bloody affair, in that his son-in-law Ali split with the uncle Omar. As such, u can say that the peace at the time when Islam was at its most glorious moment in history was not a very lasting peace, juz a moment in all the history of humankind, don't u agree? Since then, Islam has also known other periods of great peace like during the Ummayad era in Spain where the great literature and sciences were made through the interaction of muslim and jewish scholars in the ancient cities of Cordoba and Toledo. There was also great eras of peace and glorious flourishiing of culture and sciences in the various eras before Baghdad was destroyed by the Mongol invasion in 13th century or so, and the islamic epicenter moved to Damascus.

My point is this, jrock, the only peace and glorious moment of Islam didn't belong to just the short time that the Prophet was alive, but also to many eras in the course of the evolution of Islam. Eras when the islamic scholars wrote, investigated and travelled throughout the vast lands which have accepted islam as their official religion.

Christianity was always a superstitious religion prone to paranoia and persecution against itself or Jewish pogroms from its inception until the middle ages too. Even the building of the cathedrals was driven by a form of fear of hell and punishment by God for man's sins. It was only the really during the Renaissance (17th century onwards) that Christianity in many ways flourished in their arts and sciences and began to explore the world and expand itself. And this, is still thanks to the split between the Church and Government caused by the spread of Protestantism, and, hard as this may seem for many westerners to accept graciously, the preservation of the scientific works done my muslim scholars in arabic n persian in the days of Islam's expansion!!

I would just like to make one more point... the time when Jesus Christ came onto the world to teach the religion of love and redemption, it was equally a violent time. The Romans were facing rebellions from their subjects in faraway lands. The Jewish n native populations were uprising against heavy taxes and forced labour by their Roman rulers too. Jesus came at this turbulent time to teach a brand new form of religion that is very different from the Old Testament. And really, it took 300 more years before his teachings became official in the Roman empire through the Roman Emperor Constantinople.

Sometimes, u just can't help but wonder, there's so many different kinds of wierd sects and religious groups throughout the history of mankind. All it takes is for one powerful nation or empire to adopt one of the teachings of these wierd sects, and then these become the Words of God!!!

Have u read the history of how Mormon religion was created in the turbulent times of the founding of America? Mormonism is now such a big n powerful religion in the United States, but the history of its founding father is so full of revelatory incidents, you will not believe it. You should read the history of their founder in the book by Jon Krakauer "Under the Banner of Heaven". You will realise most religions have the same sort of beginning... in times of chaos, one man comes along and says something that seems to make helluva lot of sense about how to lift your clan out of misery and hopelessness! And with a bit of gun power on your side, Voila!!! You have an official world religion!

you are absolutely right about glorius Islam spreading around the world. I didnt say Islam will completely losing glory after Muhammad S.A.W passed.
but mostly in spiritual way. that era is the best one, since people have the right person to ask.
you might want to know that when right after Muhammad died, people started to arguing, and few are losing Islam religion.
the good khilafa at that time doesnt slay who repent .... but they re-spreading the Islam.

during Ummayad Islam spread along with knowledge and culture. many great Muslim scientist and artist at that time.

also my favorite history is Salahaddin and crusader (he is Kurd, but respected by all muslim)
you can see in the movie called Kingdom of Heaven. and that movie kinda 80% historical accurate, and its only the tip of iceberg of the original history story.
while people from europe choose to slay every enemy they met and lots of religious fanatism.
Salahaddin introduced diplomacy between religion, tolerance, military advanced defense system.

it is actually hard to keep Islam only one sects,(which is i stil believe one day it will) you might find need sects to spread islam. based on ur culture.
in indonesia itself we have 2 major sects. Muhammadiya and NU. we can life alongside share knowledge, no problem.
and after all we have the same source and basic law of Islam : Al-Quran and Al-haddith.

because we keep the original arabic word what Muhammad messages to us (no old or new testament)
Al_haddith is a word and how our prophet behave. it explain Islam in detail that not written in Quran.
in Al-Quran, if al haddith is contradictive with Quran that means its not valid.

mistranslation will make completely different and violating the basic rule itself.
thats why you see minor sects, some of them might weird some other goes radical (they think they living in quraishy war)
also, all kind of ideology might goes wrong if you read as it is without deep undertanding, eg : liberalism - socialism.


,today Im not really good practicing my religion as my gramp or my dad.
but at least they explain me all the make sense knowledge bout Islam.

He is the man

The only times when Islam has been hailed as glorious is when those were times of peace and great stability. Whenever there were turmoil and great strife for muslim peoples, I don't think Islam was very effective as a unifying factor for the warring tribes. What was more effective was a military strongman who came to dominate the many different subjects from different territories in muslim lands. I hope u don't get upset by this observation I make. I see this because of the different sects that Islam has splintered into, that is why I say that Islam hasn't been effective in unifying the warring tribes... the only time it unified the different tribes was during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). After his passing, the different schools which evolved after that (Shia, Sunni etc..) made it difficult to reunite the peoples into one muslim brotherhood body except through conquest.

For me that is the reason why there has been such an ironclad fundamental rule underlying the practice of islam today, which is that there should be absolutely no deviation nor re-interpretation of the original arabic words of the Prophet.

I see that the ultimate aim of such a fundamental rule is to re-unite the muslim peoples as one again. But such an ultimate aim is no longer possible in our lifetimes and even after, because as even Indonesians can see for themselves that Diversity is the stuff in life. The acceptance of Diversity at the deepest fundamental level of life is a genuine tolerance and Unity.

It is my wish that the major leaders of the various Islamic schools will come to accept diversity amongst its followers and find that great tolerance and unity again. And that they can achieve this without any form of military conquest of Jerusalem & all other muslim lands..

what do u think?

if you have history book you wont manipulate a single word of it , but you might want to find it more and describe it better.

perhaps most of nonmuslim doesnt know about ijtihad, and most of current moslem supremacy doesnt practice/improve it properly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijtihad

Ijtihad (Arabic اجتهاد) is a technical term of Islamic law that describes the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the legal sources, the Qur'an and the Sunnah. The opposite of ijtihad is taqlid, Arabic for "imitation". A person who applies ijtihad is called a mujtahid, and traditionally had to be a scholar of Islamic law, an Islamic lawyer or alim.
it supposed to keep the law updated based on time and changes (not what you see that everything is according to 7th century).
how you translate and describe Quran and Sunnah perhaps shows the meaning of each word itself.

thats how Islam could be flexible as i mention before.
the problem is, this can be used in wrong way also.

one of the muslim scholar/kyai/imam that to became president in indonesia is Gus Dur.
I salute his original principle and idea, despite his physical illness made him easily to be manipulated

Hmm... jrock, I dun think it's necessary for muslims to tell other non-muslims what the correct meaning of jihad is all the time. They should know what it means for them personally and not have to be defensive about its use in daily lives of the muslims.

Excusatio non petita, acusatio manifesta = excuses not asked for manifests guilt, u get my drift??

Anyways, what's the point of this thread, mangaman? It seems that no other folks on indochat are interested in the documentary to answer your questions abt the documentary's views on Islam..

I can only tell you one thing which is that the documentary sux because the protagnist is the head of Dhimmi Watch, an organization in the USA which is set up to be like the Klu Klux Klan to intellectually brainwash non-muslims to fear and hate Islam and their believers without dwelling on the larger picture of how Islam has contributed to abrahamaic civilizations in any way. If u watch this documentary and u start to believe the way they present the evolution of Islam, you will never reach any form of reconciliation between the abrahamaic faiths because you have been brainwashed to hatred and fear instead.

I suggest you avoid taking seriously everything from Dhimmi Watch in future. There was one guy (Nomad) on AF Debate chat who used the material from Dhimmi Watch like his bible to brainwash ordinary AFers in the States to think that muslims and their religion are evil. Their agenda is to substantiate their government's invasion of Iraq, sick as it seems.

since ppl talkin about inside the context.
since you tlakin about reinterpretation, : itjtihad is translating describing, ; Jihad is completely different context.
since some ppl interested to ask something specific.

almost nobody discuss here because maybe , maybe the discussion not so interesting to them :p.
for me if i know something I'll answer, other than that I'm not interested to spread religion in AF.

And I do not see comment from Mangafan2 ?? Wanna see if she/he really neutral and has a good intention by showing the vid.

^
I picked up a couple of Islamic terms from AAC movie and one of them is that Muslims are not to have Suudzon feeling (spelling?)
roughly translated to " having or assuming negative thought on other peoples unproven intention" .

So if Mangafan said he is neutral and has no bad intention, then let him be!
(although it’s hard as it is to apply the same to the "documentary" LOL)

I read and capture his post/vibe/opinion to be reasonably thought provoking and intelligent and he appears to have a good heart.

And in the interest of balance reporting I am sure he is able as easily to come up with a counter documentary/POV that respond well to this fitnah.

Peace out, ppl.

Sorry for the late reply, yeah I'm neutral about this.
I look at life as one big journey we all are going trough, so I want to learn about the differences in people.
I just want to learn.

I ain't believing everything directly one says on TV.
Just like the Tibet issue, a lot is just propaganda, someone pulling the strings.
Still I thought it was interesting in how far this actually goes =)

Hope it explains why I made this.

you're so "neutral"....hahahahahaha.

it took powerful forces to make it 'seeing in dreams of angels and such' to 'Words of God'. Two of the world's top religion...but you would only comment on Christianity of course.

also, what religion isn't superstitious...? perhaps in your point of view that word isn't subjective. but you're tangawizi.

this summer there was this debate i've heard about how Christianity and how other religions are less depicted in Western media altogether as evil. And at first I said well Christianity is the world biggest religion and perhaps size tell it so. And then now I understand they have some truth in it: people often slam Christianity because it's the politically correct thing to do. they would not utter a word about the perceived 'underdogs' (also in no way true in application)...

One bash the other to uplift the other. God I love this world.

Dear flip, i have never been politically correct in my views, and in response to a video released by Dhimmi Watch that is yet still politically incorrect, I am only stating what i know about the history of the evolution of medieval christianity which islam's own history might mirror.

If anything I have said about christianity is bashing it's believers or the foundations of its popular faith, by all means, think that way... after all, I was responding to a video that is similarly bashing the believers and foundations of another rival faith.