The Indonesian side of the island of New Guinea is one of conflict. Ever since the area was incorporated into the Republic of Indonesia, an independence movement has been fighting for an independence Papua Barat. Although the OPM rebels are reduced to a small poorly armed band of men nowadays, they still exist and their cause remains popular with certain groups in western countries, especially Australia. Abuses by the military were and are widely reported, and its no secret that native Papuans live in extreme poverty despite the natural wealth of their province.
What do you think of this issue? What do you think of independence for Papua province? Please discuss.
Full Version: Papua & Papua Barat
I think independence activists have the moral highground over this. The way how Papua was incorporated into Indonesia was probably illegal, and Papuans have bore the brunt of terrible military and economic oppression. Practically however, Papua should and shall not be independent.
Pro independence activists often copy the view of the OPM (Organisasi Papua Merdeka), that Papuans should be independent merely because they're not Austronesian and muslim, as the majority of other Indonesians are. This is a racist argument. If aboriginals and caucasians can live together in Australia as one nation, then why couldn't Austronesians and Melanesians in another country? The Molucca's and places such as Timor Barat and Sumba are Melanesian Christian enclaves as well. Yet no-one seems to raise that argument there. Even the RMS (Moluccan seperatists) stay clear of ethnic arguments, and base their independence call on historical roots. What really angers me is the religious argument. In certain media this whole conflict is changed into a christian vs muslim thing. The reality is that muslims are just as oppressed as well (see Aceh), and Christians are very free to practice their faith, especially in Papua.
But most importantly, Indonesian identity was specifically NOT based on ethnic or religious grounds. Early Indonesian leaders rejected the view that Indonesia should become a muslim state. In fact, early Indonesian nationalism specifically called for the banning of institutionalised racism which existed under the Dutch (and which continued to exist against the Chinese). From the Indonesian p.o.v. there is nothing weird about Papuans being Indonesians. That diversity is even celebrated.
Another important issue is that Papua is not an exclusively Papuan province anymore. Non-Papuan settlers form almost half the population now. A lot has been done to demonise these settlers, to portray them as evil muslim racists. In reality, most of these people are very poor farmers themselves. Some of them have even been forced to migrate. The most important thing though is that they're there. They consider Papua as their home too, and forcing them to leave would be unacceptable. It may not be fair towards Papuans, but it's simply the reality of the situation. There have been incidents already where non-papuans were attacked and killed. Just imagine what would happen in an ethnocentric (as pro-independence activists are calling for) and independent Papua.
In an independent Papua, the OPM undoubtedly would want a significant role in running the country. They are not capable in any way or form. They are known to have commited serious crimes against innocent people, and I do support to classify them as terrorists. There are no Ramos Horta's or Gusmao's on their side. If East Timor with all its international help can almost destroy itself, then Papua doesn't stand a chance on its own. Calling for Papuan independence will therefore not help the average Papuan.
Something however has to be done. Indonesians could start by stopping to discriminate Papuans on aesthetic grounds. The military should be held accountable, and their culture of impunity has to be brought to an end. And most importantly, all the money that is flowing out of the province should find its way back to Papua to build infrastructure.
Pro independence activists often copy the view of the OPM (Organisasi Papua Merdeka), that Papuans should be independent merely because they're not Austronesian and muslim, as the majority of other Indonesians are. This is a racist argument. If aboriginals and caucasians can live together in Australia as one nation, then why couldn't Austronesians and Melanesians in another country? The Molucca's and places such as Timor Barat and Sumba are Melanesian Christian enclaves as well. Yet no-one seems to raise that argument there. Even the RMS (Moluccan seperatists) stay clear of ethnic arguments, and base their independence call on historical roots. What really angers me is the religious argument. In certain media this whole conflict is changed into a christian vs muslim thing. The reality is that muslims are just as oppressed as well (see Aceh), and Christians are very free to practice their faith, especially in Papua.
But most importantly, Indonesian identity was specifically NOT based on ethnic or religious grounds. Early Indonesian leaders rejected the view that Indonesia should become a muslim state. In fact, early Indonesian nationalism specifically called for the banning of institutionalised racism which existed under the Dutch (and which continued to exist against the Chinese). From the Indonesian p.o.v. there is nothing weird about Papuans being Indonesians. That diversity is even celebrated.
Another important issue is that Papua is not an exclusively Papuan province anymore. Non-Papuan settlers form almost half the population now. A lot has been done to demonise these settlers, to portray them as evil muslim racists. In reality, most of these people are very poor farmers themselves. Some of them have even been forced to migrate. The most important thing though is that they're there. They consider Papua as their home too, and forcing them to leave would be unacceptable. It may not be fair towards Papuans, but it's simply the reality of the situation. There have been incidents already where non-papuans were attacked and killed. Just imagine what would happen in an ethnocentric (as pro-independence activists are calling for) and independent Papua.
In an independent Papua, the OPM undoubtedly would want a significant role in running the country. They are not capable in any way or form. They are known to have commited serious crimes against innocent people, and I do support to classify them as terrorists. There are no Ramos Horta's or Gusmao's on their side. If East Timor with all its international help can almost destroy itself, then Papua doesn't stand a chance on its own. Calling for Papuan independence will therefore not help the average Papuan.
Something however has to be done. Indonesians could start by stopping to discriminate Papuans on aesthetic grounds. The military should be held accountable, and their culture of impunity has to be brought to an end. And most importantly, all the money that is flowing out of the province should find its way back to Papua to build infrastructure.
The rebels may have the moral high ground, but moral high ground doesn't feed your stomaches, only a show of might and power may lead u to the booty.
For indonesians, Papua Barat is big biz and big money. There's so many Jakartan elites who have their dirty fingers in the economic pie of that piece of real estate there that it would be next to impossible to expect them to re-channel the ill gotten gains back to build the infrastructure of that underdeveloped province.
As for Australians, they may be harbouring the fugitives as a compassionate humanitarian shield to hide their exploitation activities in Papua (Rio Tinto and what's the other big aussie firm in tin mining there???). If u wanna hit them, you should lobby the stock exchanges around the world to de-list firms taht engage in substandard labour and profit sharing schemes or somefink...
The boardrooms of the world should evolve to take into account issues faced by peoples like the Papuans..
For indonesians, Papua Barat is big biz and big money. There's so many Jakartan elites who have their dirty fingers in the economic pie of that piece of real estate there that it would be next to impossible to expect them to re-channel the ill gotten gains back to build the infrastructure of that underdeveloped province.
As for Australians, they may be harbouring the fugitives as a compassionate humanitarian shield to hide their exploitation activities in Papua (Rio Tinto and what's the other big aussie firm in tin mining there???). If u wanna hit them, you should lobby the stock exchanges around the world to de-list firms taht engage in substandard labour and profit sharing schemes or somefink...
The boardrooms of the world should evolve to take into account issues faced by peoples like the Papuans..
No, no independence for them, Timor is the first and last province of Indonesia that had independence. We couldn't let one more go. Yes i understand that the island is under develop because we don't like to spend much money on Papuans with koteka. However I am sure that under the current govt. that Irian jaya will be develop.
^ sounds like javanese folks are damn jealous of the kotekas huh?? 
QUOTE(DutchEastIndiesMan @ Feb 29 2008, 12:28 PM) [snapback]3533510[/snapback]
No, no independence for them, Timor is the first and last province of Indonesia that had independence. We couldn't let one more go. Yes i understand that the island is under develop because we don't like to spend much money on Papuans with koteka. However I am sure that under the current govt. that Irian jaya will be develop.
I don't understand this. Why not? What's wrong with a koteka? And don't you agree that papuans should have the opportunity to spend that money themselves?
After East Timor, I think Indonesian govt (and most of our people) wouldn't agree and wouldn't allow any separation or independent of any of our provinces. It will be suicidal for the republic. We wouldn't want to be Balcanized....
East Timor is former portugal colony, not former Dutch East Indies (Indonesia only claim territory of this former Dutch colony).
Any racial or religion-based argument to justified separation (the one promoted by OPM..., Melanesian vs Austronesian, or Christian vs Muslim thesys) is dangerous, not just for Indonesia, but for the whole region.
It will polarize people based on race and religions. Do we really want to be ended up like Yugoslavia with Croats, Serbs, Bosnians hate eachoters or Catholics, Orthodox, Islam animousity? Or like India-Pakistan-Bangladesh problems in Hindu-Islam clash....?
However I agree for more social justice and development for papuan peoples, they deserve to enjoy the richness of their land, better education and healthcare, better opportunity and better future for them.
East Timor is former portugal colony, not former Dutch East Indies (Indonesia only claim territory of this former Dutch colony).
Any racial or religion-based argument to justified separation (the one promoted by OPM..., Melanesian vs Austronesian, or Christian vs Muslim thesys) is dangerous, not just for Indonesia, but for the whole region.
It will polarize people based on race and religions. Do we really want to be ended up like Yugoslavia with Croats, Serbs, Bosnians hate eachoters or Catholics, Orthodox, Islam animousity? Or like India-Pakistan-Bangladesh problems in Hindu-Islam clash....?
However I agree for more social justice and development for papuan peoples, they deserve to enjoy the richness of their land, better education and healthcare, better opportunity and better future for them.
The only way to ensure that development money goes back to Papua is to have their representatives in Jakarta to ensure their views are taken up by the central government in the yearly budget.
But I remember Purnomor saying altho this is happening already in Indonesian democracy, the government representatives from Papua in Jkt are corrupt and in the pay of Jakartan elites. Sad...
But I remember Purnomor saying altho this is happening already in Indonesian democracy, the government representatives from Papua in Jkt are corrupt and in the pay of Jakartan elites. Sad...
QUOTE
But I remember Purnomor saying altho this is happening already in Indonesian democracy, the government representatives from Papua in Jkt are corrupt and in the pay of Jakartan elites. Sad... icon_sad.gif
now thats true!!
i just want to kick everyone who lazily slept in that "turtle" building.
QUOTE(Kresna @ Feb 29 2008, 10:26 PM) [snapback]3533605[/snapback]
I don't understand this. Why not? What's wrong with a koteka? And don't you agree that papuans should have the opportunity to spend that money themselves?
lol it was just a joke....take it lightly and your getting me wrong, in the time of 'Order Baru' Suharto is not very keen on spending the money of the Republic on them. Now things has changed and why are trying to develop the region but we will never let it go again...we try so hard and lots of people died to gain it and we wont just let it go like it's nothing.
@ tanga you know I'm not Javanese...
i read today that islands of Bali and Java are facing severe power outages and solutions need to be found for the irregular supply of coal to the country's coal fired power stations..
i wonder if Papua is going to be able to provide the country's energy needs somehow?
i wonder if Papua is going to be able to provide the country's energy needs somehow?
Currently, main Indonesian coal suppy is provided by South Sumatra's Bukit Assam coal mine.
The high wave on Java sea caused the coal barge transport being halted, but now operational again.
Some coal supply also came from Central Borneo.
The high wave on Java sea caused the coal barge transport being halted, but now operational again.
Some coal supply also came from Central Borneo.
I agree with Tangawizi. You know, Mas Kresna, the morality used by the Papuan rebels is a mask always used by rebellions throughout the history. The real main reason is welfare and, thus, money.
Btw, Mas Kresna, I don't really agree with your opinion that the annexation of Papua to Indonesia was illegal. It was endorsed by the UN. If we keep on questioning the process, then we need to also question and stand against the processes of Kosovo and East Timorese independence or even the annexation of Texas to the US in the 19th century.
Btw, Mas Kresna, I don't really agree with your opinion that the annexation of Papua to Indonesia was illegal. It was endorsed by the UN. If we keep on questioning the process, then we need to also question and stand against the processes of Kosovo and East Timorese independence or even the annexation of Texas to the US in the 19th century.
Can anybody explain the reason why the Netherlands did not want to talk with Indonesia about then Netherlands New Guinea after one year of independence acknowledgement? Was that because of other states belonged to RIS joined the republic, so that Netherlands had reason not to talk about the issue anymore, or they planned to give NNG independence, or because simply natural resources (hence, money)?
I guess the natural resources were behind the reason of the delay. Remember, the main reason the Dutch colonised us, after all, was economic. And, of course, by giving Papua away to Indonesia, the Dutch wouldn't have any influence in the region at all.
QUOTE(Kresna @ Feb 28 2008, 10:22 AM) [snapback]3531272[/snapback]
The Indonesian side of the island of New Guinea is one of conflict. Ever since the area was incorporated into the Republic of Indonesia, an independence movement has been fighting for an independence Papua Barat. Although the OPM rebels are reduced to a small poorly armed band of men nowadays, they still exist and their cause remains popular with certain groups in western countries, especially Australia. Abuses by the military were and are widely reported, and its no secret that native Papuans live in extreme poverty despite the natural wealth of their province.
What do you think of this issue? What do you think of independence for Papua province? Please discuss.
What do you think of this issue? What do you think of independence for Papua province? Please discuss.
NO FUKA CHANCE!!! end of discussion.
Friday, March 20, 2009 3:02
Returning OPM founder renounces independence
Erwida Maulia , THE JAKARTA POST , JAKARTA | Fri, 03/20/2009 11:13 AM | National
Nicolas Jouwe, cofounder of the Free Papua Movement (OPM) has arrived in Jakarta after 40 years exile in the Netherlands to renounce the restive province’s indepen-dence struggle, officials here said Thursday.
The 84-year old Papuan figure fled to the Netherlands in the 1950s and has not returned to Indonesia until now.
He was said to have created the banned Morning Star flag for the rebel group.
Nicolas arrived Wednesday in Jakarta for talks with government leaders aimed at helping put an end to more than 40 years of hostility between the country and the OPM.
He will meet Coordinating Minister for People’s Welfare Aburizal Bakrie on Friday and will travel to Papua soon.
“Nicolas Jouwe is the only OPM founding father who is still alive. He is intelligent and was fully committed to an independent Papua,” Indonesian Ambassador to the Netherlands J.E. “Fany” Habibie said at a press conference here Thursday.
“He had refused to meet with Indonesian officials for dozens of years, but finally, he is willing to come to Indonesia. He even said he wants to be President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono’s adviser on Papua matters,” he said.
Fany said Nicolas changed his stance after their meeting in the Netherlands, in which they were engaged in light and serious talks and even shared jokes and exchanged quatrains in the Ambonese language.
“I told him I didn’t want Papua to be my neighbour, but I wanted it to be my family. I said the condition has changed now; there are schools, houses... The government has changed,” Fany said.
He said Nicolas asked the central government to impose sanctions on local officials embezzling Papua’s special autonomy funds.
Nicolas also called on OPM members to cease their separatist movement and support the unitary state of Indonesia.
“(I hereby) call all Papuan fighters in jungles and abroad to rebuild Papua within the frame of the Unitary Republic of Indonesia,” Fany said, quoting a written statement from Nicolas.
However, this seemingly significant step toward peace for Papua is still fragile, the ambassador said, warning the government to handle this matter very carefully.
Aburizal’s special assistant Rizal Mallarangeng said it was too early to expect the OPM to instantly halt its operations just because of Nicolas’ renouncement.
He said Nicolas is not a structural leader of OPM, and the rebel group is not a solid organization.
“However, symbolically he still has a huge moral influence for OPM activists and at the international level. This will help us in international diplomacy,” Rizal said.
He said Indonesia would try to convince Nicolas that development, and not independence, was the solution to combat poverty in Papua.
Returning OPM founder renounces independence
Erwida Maulia , THE JAKARTA POST , JAKARTA | Fri, 03/20/2009 11:13 AM | National
Nicolas Jouwe, cofounder of the Free Papua Movement (OPM) has arrived in Jakarta after 40 years exile in the Netherlands to renounce the restive province’s indepen-dence struggle, officials here said Thursday.
The 84-year old Papuan figure fled to the Netherlands in the 1950s and has not returned to Indonesia until now.
He was said to have created the banned Morning Star flag for the rebel group.
Nicolas arrived Wednesday in Jakarta for talks with government leaders aimed at helping put an end to more than 40 years of hostility between the country and the OPM.
He will meet Coordinating Minister for People’s Welfare Aburizal Bakrie on Friday and will travel to Papua soon.
“Nicolas Jouwe is the only OPM founding father who is still alive. He is intelligent and was fully committed to an independent Papua,” Indonesian Ambassador to the Netherlands J.E. “Fany” Habibie said at a press conference here Thursday.
“He had refused to meet with Indonesian officials for dozens of years, but finally, he is willing to come to Indonesia. He even said he wants to be President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono’s adviser on Papua matters,” he said.
Fany said Nicolas changed his stance after their meeting in the Netherlands, in which they were engaged in light and serious talks and even shared jokes and exchanged quatrains in the Ambonese language.
“I told him I didn’t want Papua to be my neighbour, but I wanted it to be my family. I said the condition has changed now; there are schools, houses... The government has changed,” Fany said.
He said Nicolas asked the central government to impose sanctions on local officials embezzling Papua’s special autonomy funds.
Nicolas also called on OPM members to cease their separatist movement and support the unitary state of Indonesia.
“(I hereby) call all Papuan fighters in jungles and abroad to rebuild Papua within the frame of the Unitary Republic of Indonesia,” Fany said, quoting a written statement from Nicolas.
However, this seemingly significant step toward peace for Papua is still fragile, the ambassador said, warning the government to handle this matter very carefully.
Aburizal’s special assistant Rizal Mallarangeng said it was too early to expect the OPM to instantly halt its operations just because of Nicolas’ renouncement.
He said Nicolas is not a structural leader of OPM, and the rebel group is not a solid organization.
“However, symbolically he still has a huge moral influence for OPM activists and at the international level. This will help us in international diplomacy,” Rizal said.
He said Indonesia would try to convince Nicolas that development, and not independence, was the solution to combat poverty in Papua.
QUOTE(Kresna @ Feb 28 2008, 05:56 PM) [snapback]3531384[/snapback]
I think independence activists have the moral highground over this. The way how Papua was incorporated into Indonesia was probably illegal, and Papuans have bore the brunt of terrible military and economic oppression. Practically however, Papua should and shall not be independent.
It is legal that West New Guinea belongs to Indonesia. UN have had their decision. However, the process was not entirely agreeable. There were miscommunications among UN officials concerning the process that lead some parties rejected the decision. If only everybody understands what is West New Guinea then. Logistic problem caused these problems actually. How can you expect people in the mountainous range to choose for a referendum? If you asked them, certainly what they want is independence because everybody wants that. But the concept of independence in the sense of the plebicite was different, wasnt it?
ITs legal, because Papua was a part of Nederlands Oost Indie. It belongs to Indonesia like Pulau Nias, Pulau Madura or any other part of NKRI.
The newest macroeconomic situation of Papua province:
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/04...tonomy.html?1#1
Quotes:
Who said that Papuans are different from other Indonesians? This finding shows the opposite.
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2009/04...tonomy.html?1#1
Quotes:
QUOTE
“[Papuan] authorities have failed to provide locals with basic necessities,”
QUOTE
“Many leaders were chosen simply because they were local politicians’ sons,”
QUOTE
He said the Papua administration had failed implementing special autonomy for the benefit of the people.
QUOTE
“The Central Bureau of Statistics’ data showed that in 2004, almost 39 percent of Papua’s citizens were living below the poverty line,” Vidhyandika said. In 2005, the region’s human development index of 62.1 was the lowest among the country’s 33 provinces.
QUOTE
“For instance, they see no problem in helping their needy relatives using funds from the regional budget, because they fear karma more than the law.”
QUOTE
In 2008 only 8 percent of the regional budget was allocated to develop health facilities, despite the fact that nearly 70 percent of locals were HIV positive and more than 75 percent had Malaria.
Who said that Papuans are different from other Indonesians? This finding shows the opposite.
All of PNG should be part of Indonesia.
No, because it wasn't part of Nederlands Oost Indie. We dont have problems with our eastern neighbours.
There were under the Kaiser and we're not that greedy Henry ! xD
We just wants whats ours.
We just wants whats ours.
QUOTE (DutchEastIndiesMan @ Jul 4 2009, 10:56 AM) 
There were under the Kaiser and we're not that greedy Henry ! xD
We just wants whats ours.
We just wants whats ours.
xD
QUOTE (DutchEastIndiesMan @ Feb 29 2008, 07:28 AM)
No, no independence for them, Timor is the first and last province of Indonesia that had independence. We couldn't let one more go. Yes i understand that the island is under develop because we don't like to spend much money on Papuans with koteka. However I am sure that under the current govt. that Irian jaya will be develop.
The current government?
Under President SBY ? The second term?
I don't think so !
In his first term, SBY didn't care about Papua. In the second term, for sure, president SBY won't care about Papua again
Poor Papua people. All their natural wealths are being sucked by Javanese. Papuas just eat dirts in their own country !
*
weren't papuans prehistoric living cannibals before indonesians civilized them
*
QUOTE (salamat @ Oct 28 2009, 07:08 AM)
weren't papuans prehistoric living cannibals before indonesians civilized them
What an amazing stupid remark. It were the Dutch that brought some civilization and education to the Papua’s. When Indonesian troops entered Nieuw Guinea in 1962, they saw so many things that the had never seen on Java that they start robbing everything and shipped it to java and sold it for a huge profits like western toilets, all kind of machinery and household goods like frigidaire’s and washing machines, canned fruit, meat etc. They robbed shop owners and civilians from these goods. Let’s discuss civilization
QUOTE (salamat @ Oct 28 2009, 06:08 AM)
weren't papuans prehistoric living cannibals before indonesians civilized them
You mean: before Indonesians entered Papua soil, murdered many of them, manipulated them to support Indonesia in manipulated general election, and took all their abundant natural resources.
I have Papua blood from my father. And He tells me a lot of stories about my people's miseries. How Indonesians murder many Papuans because Papuans dare to speak the truth !
Reading sources on the internet most agree that Western Papua New Guinea was illegally occupied. They supposedly were already sort of independent. And just because the Netherlands once controlled PNG, as well as, Indonesia does not mean PNG and Indonesia had to be united. They have different cultures.
If we go by that logic Vietnam could have claimed and taken over Laos and Cambodia when the French left.
PNG, the Indonesian controlled Western part, has more in common with the Independent nation of Papaua NG (eastern half of the island).
Austronesians arrived 3500 years ago.
Chances are the entire island of New Guinea would today be one independent nation if not for outside interference.
If we go by that logic Vietnam could have claimed and taken over Laos and Cambodia when the French left.
PNG, the Indonesian controlled Western part, has more in common with the Independent nation of Papaua NG (eastern half of the island).
QUOTE
New Guinea the most linguistically diverse area in the world. Ethnologue 14th edition lists 826 languages of Papua New Guinea and 257 languages of Irian Jaya, total 1073 languages, with 12 languages overlapping. They fall into one of two groups, the Papuan languages and the Austronesian languages
QUOTE
Current evidence indicates that the Papuans (who constitute the majority of the island's peoples) are descended from the earliest human inhabitants of New Guinea. These original inhabitants first arrived in New Guinea at a time (either side of the Last Glacial Maximum, approx 21,000 years ago) when the island was connected to the Australian continent via a land bridge, forming the landmass known as Sahul
Austronesians arrived 3500 years ago.
Chances are the entire island of New Guinea would today be one independent nation if not for outside interference.
^ Last time I checked, every single country in the world and the UN acknowledged West Papua as part of Indonesia.
^Thats world politics for you plus it helps that Indonesia has oil reserves. Afterall, the world needs oil. And currently PNG is not known for producing any vast amount of oil.
But you got to admit that Indonesia did plan to do the same thing they did in PNG with Timor Leste. But unlike in PNG they ran into a hornets nest in Timor Leste.
Reminds me of a story someone told me. Seems they know of someone whose neighbor built a 8 foot high wall on the left side of his home on the property line. He could not build it that high but he did it anyway. He got away with it even though his neighbor complained. And the guy did not even cover with cement the ugly cement blocks that were facing his neighbor. He just covered the part facing his home.
Two years later he did the same thing to the guy on the other side. This time he was out of luck. That neighbor got on the guys back. They even took him to court. In the end he had to knock down four feet off that wall and smooth over the other side of the wall with cement thus covering up the ugly cement blocks that were facing this neighbor.
But you got to admit that Indonesia did plan to do the same thing they did in PNG with Timor Leste. But unlike in PNG they ran into a hornets nest in Timor Leste.
Reminds me of a story someone told me. Seems they know of someone whose neighbor built a 8 foot high wall on the left side of his home on the property line. He could not build it that high but he did it anyway. He got away with it even though his neighbor complained. And the guy did not even cover with cement the ugly cement blocks that were facing his neighbor. He just covered the part facing his home.
Two years later he did the same thing to the guy on the other side. This time he was out of luck. That neighbor got on the guys back. They even took him to court. In the end he had to knock down four feet off that wall and smooth over the other side of the wall with cement thus covering up the ugly cement blocks that were facing this neighbor.
QUOTE (ataturk @ Oct 30 2009, 01:41 PM)
^ Last time I checked, every single country in the world and the UN acknowledged West Papua as part of Indonesia.
Your indon people bribe America a lot of money. Then, America ask every single country in the world not to interfere in Papua matter.
Freeport used to be a small company in USA. After Freeport entered Papua, nowadays, Freeport is a giant company in USA.
Abundant money makes America quiet and the world quiet too. But, it doesn't mean Indonesia are not colonializing Papua. And Indons murder many Papua people to silent their demands for freedom, sharing of wealth from Papua country.
Nothing wrong about opening mining concession to Freeport. This American company is Indonesia's largest tax-payer, and the second-largest source of revenue for Papuan provincial goverment after the subsidies they receive from Jakarta. Lots of Papuan tribal chiefs are rich thanks to Freeport money.
QUOTE (ataturk @ Oct 31 2009, 07:55 PM)
Nothing wrong about opening mining concession to Freeport. This American company is Indonesia's largest tax-payer, and the second-largest source of revenue for Papuan provincial goverment after the subsidies they receive from Jakarta. Lots of Papuan tribal chiefs are rich thanks to Freeport money.
Nothing wrong about opening mining concession to Freeport?
Oh yeah....
There is nothing wrong about murdering thousands of Papuas, raping them, torturing them, make them starving to death. In the mean time, Indon goverment make concession with USA, making Freeport a giant mining company in USA. So, America will keep silent about human right violations done to Papuas by Indon military.
You are so Indon.... !!
And you said that lots of Papuan tribal chiefs are rich because of Freeport money?
How about many Papuans who are starving in their own country?
You Indon bribe many tribal chiefs, make them rich, make them control and manipulate Papuans. You divide et impera Papuan people so they will not revolt and kick you out of my country.
Is it the way you treat other people?
No wonder so many different kinds of people hate you on earth !
^ Indonesia already gave Papuans special autonomy so they can decide on how to best spend the flood of money given to them by Indonesian central govt and from Freeport tax payments. If the wealth is not spread around enough to the common people, then these local govt officials should face the music and be accountable.
It is about time the Papuan govt officials and tribal chiefs to grow up and take responsibility for the welfare of the native Papuans. They should stop whining and asking for money to Jakarta every time they feel greedy. Less corruption and less whining, and more action please from the native Papuans.
It is about time the Papuan govt officials and tribal chiefs to grow up and take responsibility for the welfare of the native Papuans. They should stop whining and asking for money to Jakarta every time they feel greedy. Less corruption and less whining, and more action please from the native Papuans.
QUOTE (Indonbali @ Oct 31 2009, 11:46 PM)
Nothing wrong about opening mining concession to Freeport?
Oh yeah....
There is nothing wrong about murdering thousands of Papuas, raping them, torturing them, make them starving to death. In the mean time, Indon goverment make concession with USA, making Freeport a giant mining company in USA. So, America will keep silent about human right violations done to Papuas by Indon military.
You are so Indon.... !!
And you said that lots of Papuan tribal chiefs are rich because of Freeport money?
How about many Papuans who are starving in their own country?
You Indon bribe many tribal chiefs, make them rich, make them control and manipulate Papuans. You divide et impera Papuan people so they will not revolt and kick you out of my country.
Is it the way you treat other people?
No wonder so many different kinds of people hate you on earth !
Oh yeah....
There is nothing wrong about murdering thousands of Papuas, raping them, torturing them, make them starving to death. In the mean time, Indon goverment make concession with USA, making Freeport a giant mining company in USA. So, America will keep silent about human right violations done to Papuas by Indon military.
You are so Indon.... !!
And you said that lots of Papuan tribal chiefs are rich because of Freeport money?
How about many Papuans who are starving in their own country?
You Indon bribe many tribal chiefs, make them rich, make them control and manipulate Papuans. You divide et impera Papuan people so they will not revolt and kick you out of my country.
Is it the way you treat other people?
No wonder so many different kinds of people hate you on earth !
^ I'd say you better watch what you say before you get warned or even banned
it seems to me you just came into this thread to stir up trouble
QUOTE (XxRyoChanxX @ Nov 1 2009, 12:18 PM)
^ I'd say you better watch what you say before you get warned or even banned
it seems to me you just came into this thread to stir up trouble
it seems to me you just came into this thread to stir up trouble
Is it a threat from you to me ? So, I should not tell the truth? And we should just let Indons spin the matter?
QUOTE (ataturk @ Nov 1 2009, 09:43 AM)
^ Indonesia already gave Papuans special autonomy so they can decide on how to best spend the flood of money given to them by Indonesian central govt and from Freeport tax payments. If the wealth is not spread around enough to the common people, then these local govt officials should face the music and be accountable.
It is about time the Papuan govt officials and tribal chiefs to grow up and take responsibility for the welfare of the native Papuans. They should stop whining and asking for money to Jakarta every time they feel greedy. Less corruption and less whining, and more action please from the native Papuans.
It is about time the Papuan govt officials and tribal chiefs to grow up and take responsibility for the welfare of the native Papuans. They should stop whining and asking for money to Jakarta every time they feel greedy. Less corruption and less whining, and more action please from the native Papuans.
Papuan special autonomy is " a stage " from Indonesia to show the world that as if Papuans already can decide how they manage themselves. So, any problems in Papua, Indons can whitewash easily. However, all government officials in Papua are puppets of Jakarta. Not a single government official in Papua dares not to obey any orders from Jakarta.
And, how can you ask Papua government officials and tribal chiefs not to corrupt the money. In the mean time, according to the current Finance Minister, Dr. Sri Mulyani, it is just 7% of total government officials all over Indonesia who are not doing corruptions. It means 93% of total government officials all over Indon are corruptors.
So, it is impossible for Corruptors in Jakarta to ask their subordinates (government officials in Papua) not to steal the money.
Are you playing "blame game" now?
******************
You ask more actions from native Papua..... my people.....
Let's see the link:
QUOTE
http://www.koteka.net/
To counter increasing international outcry of its genocide of Papuans and justified Papuan calls for self-determination and independence, Indonesia offered autonomy to the region. However, funds originally allocated for autonomy to the territory has in fact been diverted to the TNI (Indonesian military) with which six ocean liners were purchased.
These now off-load shiploads of transmigrants , pro-Indonesian militia groups and militant jihadists including Laskar Jihad and Jemaah Islamiya (controlled by the TNI to do their dirty work) for massive ethnic-cleansing against the Papuans under the guise of inter-religious war. The autonomy fund has also been used by the racist military and police to fund construction of more barracks, military/police housing, mosques and transmigrant businesses whilst Papuans are marginalised and do not receive any of the fund for whom it was originally intended.
Blatant racism by the Indonesian occupying-forces include Papuans stopped daily for ID checks by Brimob (the Police Mobile Brigade) whilst non-Papun migrants are not even stopped at checkpoints. Whilst European countries and the West in general continue to voice autonomy as the best option for the territory, the reality on the ground is however very different and requires urgent international action for West Papua.
Furthermore, Indonesia is currently attempting to create new provinces through a divide and conquer strategy - to split the Indonesian-occupied western half of New Guinea into further provinces of Papua and Papua Barat (English literal translation of Papua Barat is West Papua) in an effort to confuse the international community of their illegal annexation and occupation of West Papua, the western half of the island of New Guinea.
The Papuans have therefore rejected Jakarta's offer of autonomy outright as it is deemed a delaying tactic to facilitate flooding the territory with non-Papuans for more ethnic-cleansing, start an inter-religious war and to counter Papuan demands for urgent international intervention.
The Papuans are therefore demanding a fair referendum to correct the flawed 1969 Act of Free Choice (locally known as the Act of No Choice) through peaceful rallies and mass protests throughout the territory, to which the Indonesian response has been to arrest and imprison the peaceful protesters.
The Berlin Wall came down when it was never thought possible, South Africa rid itself of its apartheid regime, we say that it is time West Papua is freed of the shackles of the genocidal racist Indonesian military regime. The time has come for YOU to help West Papuans liberate their country.
To counter increasing international outcry of its genocide of Papuans and justified Papuan calls for self-determination and independence, Indonesia offered autonomy to the region. However, funds originally allocated for autonomy to the territory has in fact been diverted to the TNI (Indonesian military) with which six ocean liners were purchased.
These now off-load shiploads of transmigrants , pro-Indonesian militia groups and militant jihadists including Laskar Jihad and Jemaah Islamiya (controlled by the TNI to do their dirty work) for massive ethnic-cleansing against the Papuans under the guise of inter-religious war. The autonomy fund has also been used by the racist military and police to fund construction of more barracks, military/police housing, mosques and transmigrant businesses whilst Papuans are marginalised and do not receive any of the fund for whom it was originally intended.
Blatant racism by the Indonesian occupying-forces include Papuans stopped daily for ID checks by Brimob (the Police Mobile Brigade) whilst non-Papun migrants are not even stopped at checkpoints. Whilst European countries and the West in general continue to voice autonomy as the best option for the territory, the reality on the ground is however very different and requires urgent international action for West Papua.
Furthermore, Indonesia is currently attempting to create new provinces through a divide and conquer strategy - to split the Indonesian-occupied western half of New Guinea into further provinces of Papua and Papua Barat (English literal translation of Papua Barat is West Papua) in an effort to confuse the international community of their illegal annexation and occupation of West Papua, the western half of the island of New Guinea.
The Papuans have therefore rejected Jakarta's offer of autonomy outright as it is deemed a delaying tactic to facilitate flooding the territory with non-Papuans for more ethnic-cleansing, start an inter-religious war and to counter Papuan demands for urgent international intervention.
The Papuans are therefore demanding a fair referendum to correct the flawed 1969 Act of Free Choice (locally known as the Act of No Choice) through peaceful rallies and mass protests throughout the territory, to which the Indonesian response has been to arrest and imprison the peaceful protesters.
The Berlin Wall came down when it was never thought possible, South Africa rid itself of its apartheid regime, we say that it is time West Papua is freed of the shackles of the genocidal racist Indonesian military regime. The time has come for YOU to help West Papuans liberate their country.
Let's compare the news above with your statement about autonomy, money and more active from native Papuans..
We can see that all your statements are full of lies !
QUOTE (Indonbali @ Nov 2 2009, 06:12 PM)
Papuan special autonomy is " a stage " from Indonesia to show the world that as if Papuans already can decide how they manage themselves. So, any problems in Papua, Indons can whitewash easily. However, all government officials in Papua are puppets of Jakarta. Not a single government official in Papua dares not to obey any orders from Jakarta.
Every govt official in Papua are elected by their constituents through direct elections. They are answerable to their own people. If Papuans don't like their regional leaders, they can vote them out.
QUOTE
And, how can you ask Papua government officials and tribal chiefs not to corrupt the money. In the mean time, according to the current Finance Minister, Dr. Sri Mulyani, it is just 7% of total government officials all over Indonesia who are not doing corruptions. It means 93% of total government officials all over Indon are corruptors.
So, it is impossible for Corruptors in Jakarta to ask their subordinates (government officials in Papua) not to steal the money.
So, it is impossible for Corruptors in Jakarta to ask their subordinates (government officials in Papua) not to steal the money.
Haha.. so you're saying it is OK if Papuan officials and tribal chiefs to steal money?
QUOTE
Let's compare the news above with your statement about autonomy, money and more active from native Papuans..
We can see that all your statements are full of lies !
We can see that all your statements are full of lies !
All I am seeing is some illogical Papuan separatist propaganda that typically does not make sense, there is no "news" there.
QUOTE (Indonbali @ Nov 1 2009, 09:46 PM)
Is it a threat from you to me ? So, I should not tell the truth? And we should just let Indons spin the matter?
no it was not a threat, I'm just letting you know that we had some ppl like you in the past who likes to stir up trouble and end up getting kicked out and banned.
and please stop calling us indon.. it's annoying
QUOTE (ataturk @ Oct 31 2009, 08:55 PM)
Nothing wrong about opening mining concession to Freeport. This American company is Indonesia's largest tax-payer, and the second-largest source of revenue for Papuan provincial goverment after the subsidies they receive from Jakarta. Lots of Papuan tribal chiefs are rich thanks to Freeport money.
While orang Papua are the poorest in Indonesia, because Javanese "filosofy" dictates "Putih bersih, hitam kotor". Black people are not second rated in Indonesia they are at the end of the very long line. Papua people are considered as primitive, they don't eat rice, but ubi and love pigs.
^ Don't think so, there are plenty of Javanese with dark skin, who love ubi and eat pigs.
Indonesians in its history never had any skin colour problem with blacks unlike the serious discrimination faced by many blacks in white countries (eg. Australia with Aborigines and US with their African-Americans).
Indonesians in its history never had any skin colour problem with blacks unlike the serious discrimination faced by many blacks in white countries (eg. Australia with Aborigines and US with their African-Americans).
QUOTE (ataturk @ Nov 3 2009, 09:10 AM)
^ Don't think so, there are plenty of Javanese with dark skin, who love ubi and eat pigs.
I love ubi..., and if I'm not a muslim, I'll eat pigs too...
That sate babi in Pecenongan is tantalizingly tempting... hehe..
QUOTE (ataturk @ Nov 3 2009, 10:10 AM)
^ Don't think so, there are plenty of Javanese with dark skin, who love ubi and eat pigs.
Indonesians in its history never had any skin colour problem with blacks unlike the serious discrimination faced by many blacks in white countries (eg. Australia with Aborigines and US with their African-Americans).
Indonesians in its history never had any skin colour problem with blacks unlike the serious discrimination faced by many blacks in white countries (eg. Australia with Aborigines and US with their African-Americans).
Java was one of the most racist places I have ever visited, not only visite,d but stayed there for 19 years. It is easy to point to others and pretend that your own yard is clean (no Black)
QUOTE (Majapahitans @ Nov 3 2009, 01:00 PM)
I love ubi..., and if I'm not a muslim, I'll eat pigs too...
That sate babi in Pecenongan is tantalizingly tempting... hehe..
That sate babi in Pecenongan is tantalizingly tempting... hehe..
Hi Maas, ou should eat the sate babi as "obat" no problem
QUOTE (ataturk @ Nov 2 2009, 08:01 AM)
Every govt official in Papua are elected by their constituents through direct elections. They are answerable to their own people. If Papuans don't like their regional leaders, they can vote them out.
Haha.. so you're saying it is OK if Papuan officials and tribal chiefs to steal money?
All I am seeing is some illogical Papuan separatist propaganda that typically does not make sense, there is no "news" there.
Haha.. so you're saying it is OK if Papuan officials and tribal chiefs to steal money?
All I am seeing is some illogical Papuan separatist propaganda that typically does not make sense, there is no "news" there.
Government official in Papua are elected by their constituents through direct elections? And if we don't like our regional leaders, we can vote them out?
Oh yeah? How can we do that?
Besides street demonstrations, there are no law mechanism in Indonesia if we don't like our regional leaders, we can vote them out.
And if we do street demonstration, your people will murder us, just like before.
*********************
Our regional leaders in Papua did massive corruptions because you Indonesian teach them to steal our money. And you Indonesians are one of the most corrupt people in the world, how can corrupt people like you ask other people not to do corruptions? It is just like a bandit who ask his subordinates to become Saint people. It is so hypocrite !!
************************************
Are you saying that the murder of more than 100.000 Papuas are a lie?
WOW !!
No wonder Papuas want freedom from Indonesia !
De facto is, Papua is now part of Indonesia and ideally justice must served for whole people in Indonesian people: wheather they are Makassar, Betawi, Sundanese, Papua, Melayu, Batak, Minahasan, Aceh, Bugis, Bali, Javanese, Flores, West Timor, Dayak, Ambon etc.
I'm aware of some injustice or exploitation happened, not just in Papua but many parts of Indonesia.
It is the injustice act that we have to fight. But we fight it NOT with separatism, moreover the separatism that is based on racist theory: Brown (Austronesian) vs Black (Melanesian) thesys hailed by the separatist. If they're succeed its more likely an apartheid regime but exercised by black people. Separatism itself is indeed dangerous to Indonesia and the region as a whole. It could set the nation and region into turmoil and instability, and bloodshed, lot of refugees. Fractured Indonesia maybe set back to chaos just like Sub-Saharan African country, where warlords, not people, the one that hold the true power, through corruptions, blood diamond, and drugs money to buy weapons. Present democracy although may not perfect, still the best availabe option we have today.
I'm aware of some injustice or exploitation happened, not just in Papua but many parts of Indonesia.
It is the injustice act that we have to fight. But we fight it NOT with separatism, moreover the separatism that is based on racist theory: Brown (Austronesian) vs Black (Melanesian) thesys hailed by the separatist. If they're succeed its more likely an apartheid regime but exercised by black people. Separatism itself is indeed dangerous to Indonesia and the region as a whole. It could set the nation and region into turmoil and instability, and bloodshed, lot of refugees. Fractured Indonesia maybe set back to chaos just like Sub-Saharan African country, where warlords, not people, the one that hold the true power, through corruptions, blood diamond, and drugs money to buy weapons. Present democracy although may not perfect, still the best availabe option we have today.
QUOTE (Indonbali @ Nov 8 2009, 01:36 PM)
Government official in Papua are elected by their constituents through direct elections? And if we don't like our regional leaders, we can vote them out?
Oh yeah? How can we do that?
Oh yeah? How can we do that?
Haha.. You're not really Papuan, are you? Regional leaders in Papua, like elsewhere in Indonesia, are elected through direct elections by their constituents (pilkada).
QUOTE
Our regional leaders in Papua did massive corruptions because you Indonesian teach them to steal our money. And you Indonesians are one of the most corrupt people in the world, how can corrupt people like you ask other people not to do corruptions? It is just like a bandit who ask his subordinates to become Saint people. It is so hypocrite !!
Are you trying to justify and make excuse for Papuan corruption? It is about time the Papuans stop making excuses and blame other for their own problems. In short, the Papuans need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.
QUOTE
Are you saying that the murder of more than 100.000 Papuas are a lie?
WOW !!
No wonder Papuas want freedom from Indonesia !
WOW !!
No wonder Papuas want freedom from Indonesia !
Papuan separatists should try to make at least more reasonable and believable lie. Their claims of genocide are too overdone and proposterous, hence nobody really take these claims seriously.
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