i just bought this book... what's your take on the title, fellaz????

Ya Tuhan...

I hear some people would want to rename the book "Early Kingdoms of Malay Archipelago...."
But really, I actually bought the exact book in KL last year. It's a mix review for me, at the same time his scope is quite thorough, but I remember disputing some facts that he wrote about some Indonesian kingdoms (can't remember which, have to look again). I am wondering if he actually visited and researched these places or if he's more like an arm-chair historian.

I wondered if its available in Chapters.

Why we always trust the White story books as if it is a Koran for us. Even Darwin cannot prove his theory.

^ Even if truth bit u on your @$$ u wouldn't even know it!

Some western writers do seem to have that ability to come up with an impressive-looking historical writeup of other nations, particularly those that their ancestors have once conquered, after a couple of years of fast-track research at some university somewhere. But then that's all there is to it: impressive-looking.

Tanah Melayu, or Semenanjung Melayu, n Kepulauan Melayu has been called by those names, without change, since 2000 years ago. Whereas, certain parts of Kepulauan Melayu have been renamed Kepulauan Indonesia, by certain people, a few decades after those certain parts regained their sovereignity from their Dutch conquerers, who actually left the name Indonesche, East India, Indonesia or India Timur, depending on whether you wanna use respectively, the Dutch/German, English, Latin or Bahasa Melayu version, as a legacy of their conquest.

I bet my @$$ if the westerner had titled his book Early Kingdoms of the Malay Archipelago, u would be the first to call him Daddy!!!!! ahahahaha

So who Do you think should we trust ???

I think the author want to be politically correct according to present socio-political nature.
Since most of Archiplego now belong within Indonesian territory, and the Peninsula belongs to Malaysia, so referred as Malay peninsula.
Refering to "Malay Archipelago" is not widely accepted, you know the different of the term "Malay" in Malaysia and Indonesia. (Oh we have tons of threads about this issue ).

Wooow... I'd love to buy one copy of it!

I wouldn't do that if I were you, sweet Tanga. Someone might just wannna take ya up on it. Ha ha ha ha ha!

Actually the book does go on to describe Indo-Malayan Archipelago in the chapters..... ahahaha... isn't that sweet???

Speaking of books, n archipelago stuff aside, I've just finished Volume 1 (Lord of the Silver Bow) n Volume 3 (Fall of Kings) of the Troy trilogy, by David n Stella Gemmel.

They're quite cool, especially if you like classical, epic-type heroism stuff. You know, stuff like Hector, Achilles, Odysseus, Agamemnon etc. Good for when you need a little escape.

Now, I'll be looking for Volume 2 (Shield of Thunder).

So, guys, wot stuff r ya reading now then?

^ For a guy who juz whacked "western writers" and criticised their historical accuracy, i am stunned to find out u enjoy reading epic-hero historical stuff by more "western writers"

ahahahah... dreamhunter, u hunting more dreams today about hero epics in the archipelago??

i am reading my brother's old sexy violent manga collection (Crying Freedom) and my dad's old books (Makassar Sailing and Memoirs of a Balinese Prince).

Smart marketing move by Paul Michael Munoz! Munoz wants Indonesians to buy his book. Calling it "Indonesian Archipelago" makes marketing and economic sense, and would sell the book in Indonesia, besides being politically correct there. Calling it "Malay Archipelago" is very, very bad for Indonesians....it reminds them of their worst nightmare...us, Malaysia!!!! Haha!!

The temple in the picture on the book cover is stunningly beautiful. Yes, we must admit that Indonesia is uniquely rich in cultural heritages.

Writers r there to be reviewed n assessed, Tang. We as their readers, their customers, r their masters. But then, they'll probably end up being much richer than us.

So you're into sex & violence then. Ummmm. Interesting. Lemme think .....

Naaaah. I'm just into sex n pleasure. Pure pleasure. Without the pain. Ha ha ha ha ha.

About Makassar, I've heard that the ancient Bugis were great seafarers. Well, just like the ancient Malayan Malays. So, if you happen to have any material on the maritime history of Sulawesi, like ancient Bugis ships, especially their warships, n the warriors fighting on them, I'd be glad to have them. Especially stuff from 11th century. Like, 1000 AD to 1100 AD. Doing my own little research, see.

Yeah, i read that the Bugis were really the controllers of the Johor kingdom at the end because of their ferocious fighting spirits, and in fact the lineage of the current Johor royal house came from the Bugis people.

Hmmm... for records that old circa 1000AD, maybe u need the chinese chronicles? U must come visit our National Library la... i don't think Borders have these kinds of books...

Yes indeed! Malaysia is Indonesia's nightmare but mostly in terms of cultural hijacking.

Amazingly, when I was in KL last year too I bought this beautiful book 'The Centhini Story: the Javanese journey of life' a colourful book on Javanese encyclopedic manuscript written in 1814. It is published by Marshall Cavendish, Singapore. Not only the narratives are interesting, but the photos are also quite remarkable. But currently I am reading The World Without Us by Alan Weisman.

For Buginese literature, one should read the epic of creation I La Galigo, reputedly the longest literary works in the world. Unfortunately I'm not sure if an English translation available. But maybe you can watch instead reading this because this epic is lately showcased with the inception of Robert Wilson's I La Galigo, a NY-based dance theatre performing the epic with an all-Indonesian (mostly Buginese) cast and touring worldwide.

Robert Wilson's I La Galigo

Don't know if anyone's into Greek lit here. I've got Virgil's Aenid. That long poem about the travels n travails of Aeneas, the Trojan survivor. An English version.

It comprises thousands of 10-rangkap pantun-like poems. Virgil was said to have composed only 1 rangkap a day. So it must've taken him quite a bit of time.

Correction:
Don't know if anyone's into Greek lit here. I've got Virgil's Aenid. That long poem about the travels n travails of Aeneas, the Trojan survivor. An English version. Got it free online.

It comprises thousands of 10-baris pantun-like 'rangkaps'. Virgil was said to have composed only 1 rangkap a day. So it must've taken him quite a bit of time.

Is that "Serat Centhini"? I'd love to have that book! and no matter what claim people have on our culture, I La Galigo remains the longest written epic in the world!
Anyway, most Indonesians can not afford fancy imported books and foreign authors know that.

@dreamhunt, Gee... Virgil...so what's that about? Another archipelago??

@rabsiduk, the music from that show I La Galigo reminds me of the music showcased in this fashion shoot.. but i am told that her instrument is of Brazilian origin.. what's the music of I La Galigo from? It sounds faintly Indonesian to me...or does it???

The music of I La Galigo is 100% Indonesian, but you might not recognize it right away because it is not quite as popular as gamelan. It is the classical music of the Buginese of South Sulawesi.

The Buginese empire was once a modern empire just like the Malacca empire. It had its own flag, symbol, war dance, alphabets, and so forth. 300 to 400 years ago when Dutch came to Sulawesi island, the Dutch armies raped one lady in the island. This had made Buginese wrath and all the Dutch armies were killed at once. After knowing the size of Dutch army at that time, Buginese left the Sulawesi island and came to Tanah Melayu. In the middle of the ocean , the have fought with Dutch army. Finally Buginese stayed in Tanah Melayu and succumbed to the Malay custom here. In Tanah Melayu the fighting between combined Malay and Buginese armies with Dutch army still went on until Dutch decided to left Malacca. Finally Dutch gave their unknown conquered lands in Tanah Melayu and Sabah-Sarawak to British and called the Buginese as PIRATES. Whereas the Buginese is not pirates as claimed by Dutch.

Now Malaysian must have their guts to claim Sulawesi as our third land. Hehehehehehe. Indonesian grabbed this island from us (including Ambalat). Hahahahaha. If we take back Sulawesi from Indonesia, what can the Indonesian people can do about it . Hehehehe (Just joking).

Haha, very funny kumanddie. The Buginese was even modern than your Malacca. You Malacca had no script of its own, proudly using the Arabic script instead. Your Malacca had no great literature achievement of its own, instead taking adaptations from Indian, Persian, Arabic, Thai, Javanese and Buginese literature instead.

While the Buginese along with their sisters the Makassarese and the Mandarese had their own script which even influence the Philippines. They made thousands of pages of great epics which are preserved until now, I La Galigo is only one of them. They even invent special tools to make writing and reading more convenient.

While it's true that there were some runaway Buginese in Malaya or even Siam, most of them stayed behind to defend their homeland in a long war which exhaust the Dutch. Their sultanates still exist even in modern day Indonesia, a witness of their bravery against the colonialists, and their brave warriors have their place in Indonesia's history as national heroes. Tell me, why should we care about runaways who trade their identity to become "Malays"?

I agrree. Since our Sultans of Selangor n Johore have some Bugis ancestry, that means we have double claim on Sulawesi. I say, let's go for it! He he he.

Brilliant! Since runaways and migrants could claim ownership of their homeland, Australia should claim the Great Britain! Oh, that makes USA owns the world, then! Outstanding logics!

Errr.. dreamhunter, your logic is startlingly whacked... why dun the Buginese mount a claim on Johor State in reverse??

That makes more sense, the kings are Buginese anyways, so the Malays there should bow down to their masters' homeland in Sulawesi

I juz read that the early Kingdoms in the Indo-Melayo archipelago should rightfully be termed as "mandalas"...a hindu political concept that is different from the ancient chinese concept of kingdom. anyone ever heard of this concept before?

I have heard of that concept before when discussing about Majapahit, but I dare not to say that I'm knowledgeable about the concept

Wouldn't I love to have a look at that Serat Centhini?

I got Aenid by Virgil for free actually. Just copied it from the web.

A mandala going hand in hand with a devaraja, right?

That'd be cool. So we could counterwhup them, with the Johore n Selangor sultans in the lead, n then we jut go grab their whole island. He he he.

Glad that you agree. So we'll advise our Negri Sembilan Ruler to start making preparations to to invade Minagkabau. He he he he.

here are some pages from the book- which is based from Serat Centhini - excuse my 2MP camera phone!

You know bro, if I were some clueless foreigner who knows nothing about the content of the book, I would not get aroused to buy the book looking at the cover The inside seems nice, though. Thank you so much for posting them! gmn klo lo sekalian aja ksh ke gw satu, hehehe...

I think imma gonna get a copy of this book at Borders!



is it written like poetry or it's really like an encyclopaedia??

I don't think it's an encyclopedia, it's a set of stories from which lessons can be extracted. The peculiar thing is, Centhini herself is not a very significant actor in this stories, right rasibiduk? Correct me if I'm wrong.

neither, it is written like a travel journal, so it is not dry at all but very engaging and tres exotique!

Emangnya gw penerbitnya apa? Yah gmn ya, gini aja deh, kalo gw udah mau dipanggil ama yg diatas terus buku ini masih ada di rak buku gw, mungkin deh bakal gw warisin ama loe ya.. haha..

Neither am i, i know a mandala is traditionally a symbolic creation which helps to get u into a meditative trance and obtain some kind of interconnectedness with the universe, so in the political sphere, the boundaries of your influence is not rigid and will shift accordingly to the nature of peace or war in your realm...



A devaraja is like a god-king, no one can look at his face type of thing.

I don't know if this is the concept introduced by travelling Brahmans from india to the early austronesian communities in the Indo Malaya archipelago, I know it was introduced by the varmas from southern india to the Jayavarman reigns in Indochina (Cambodia specifically).

I think the Hindu idea of kingship helped the early austronesians to turn from a kind of local petty but egalitarian chieftainship structure whose alliances shifts all too often to a more rigid and fuedal structure of governance and vassal states which allowed the early kingdoms to establish legitimacy to exploit the produce/outputs of their local subjects for conquest and expansion..

I'll tell more when i get more into the book..

Yaelah mas, bolehnya sewot. Kan cuman pendapat cuy kaga pake emosian ah ntar cepet ubanan lage

ah dek Bhas, udah telat lahh..ubannya udah ada tuh nongol satu-dua (tigaempatlimaenam...)

Back to topic: About Mandala, the concept is also very familiar in Hindu West Java. I have this book called 'Three Old Sundanese Poems' (KILTV Press) about ancient pre-Islamic Sundanese texts. In it, the function of Mandala is instrumental in studying these texts. The meaning of Mandala here is an 'abode of religious community' teaching the pupils of these ancient knowledge through esoteric means. I have a feeling that the modern pesantren of today is more or less a continuation of this long tradition of asceticism.

Hmm... Sundanese poems... I forgot what is the local term for them... my favorite ones are the mystical ones, in which they chant praising female and male heavenly beings, inviting the rice goddess.

what do u think of this theory guys....

Indonesians are by nature very sure of their sexuality, despite taking on their islamic faiths, they still live in their pre-islamic mythologies where men and women celebrate the cult of fertility (Sri Dewi) and dances, songs, poetry and tunes are still kept vibrant and thriving. Able to reconcile both worlds without reprisal or self-rebuke, Indonesians are often easy going, confident and naturally able to express simply naivete and beauty in their daily lives.

Malaysians on the other hand are repressed in their sexuality, struggling to keep up with strict islamic laws yet being influenced still by pre-islamic influences. Unable to reconcile the conflicting worlds, many Msian are often anxious, aggressive, hesitant, distrustful and self-rebuking, and their daily lives are more engaged in power play, sussing out if the other party is above or below their station.

What do you think???

Wow, I think it's so brave of you to make this kind of conclusion. I really don't know how much of those words are true, but we are more or less have this kind of connection with our previous beliefs. No matter what religion we has, we indulge in imaginations about an alternative world different from ours, ruled over by goddesses, whether it is in mountains, sea, rivers, rice fields, etc. Not only we have them on our minds, we also celebrate them in our festivals. Yes, we are easy going, but confident? Not really....

All 3 Abrahamic faiths r strict originally. But some versions got watered down over the centuries. Orthodox Judaism & Orthodox Christianity r strict too.

Not trying to play off Indos against Malays r ya?