http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7314475.stm



Even if someone at Yale did make a mistake, we can be sure that;

- Nobody with an art history background at Dongguk and even the wider academic community in Korea was familiar enough with Yale's academic community to figure out she hadn't studied there.

- Nobody at Dongguk U. tried to call or have any communication with her thesis supervisor.

- She never had anything published in a non-Korean, peer-reviewed journal.

- A lack of foreign professors in Korea makes it much easier for fakes to get away with this.

And now, if Dongguk didn't look stupid enough already, they're poised to make complete asses of themselves and Korean academia in general in the US courts. I wonder if the story of how she was actually outed will ever emerge?

Here are some comments from the Yale Daily News site:

http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/comments/24021

Wtf, fifty million dollars? Thats a bit excessive eh? Whats happening in the picture, she looks like shes being dragged away by hospital workers.

A sincere apology can't make up for the loss in reputation but $50 million can. The big loser at the end of the day won't be Yale and this will only prove what a big joke of a university Dongguk is.

Here is one for you:

Archaeologist exposed as fraud
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1008051.stm

Shinichi Fujimura profile
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinichi_Fujimura

--똥묻은개 가 겨묻은개를 나무란다--

Seems many of those who commented at Yale Daily News site weren't aware of how huge this Shin impostor case was. Damage in reputation of Dongguk University was extremely bad, and this was all due to an erroneous confirmation given by Yale. Yale clearly has responsibility in this case, and how much should be compensated is a matter of law.

One problem that I'm concerned about is that Korean prejudice towards academic repuation of certain schools may be a partial cause behind this. Though Yale erroneously gave a fax that she was at Yale, it's possible that her false credentials were to be revealed if they scrutinized her qualifications, not a simple check on the school she graduated. Also that she got along with the art community posing as a professor for so long possbily shows how ignorant and prejudiced Koreans can be towards those that graduated from prestigious universities.

"Officials will no longer confirm whether a person holds a Yale degree based on any external papers they are asked to authenticate and will rather rely on their own records when making such an assessment, officials said."

Dongguk Sues Yale for $50 Million

I think this lawsuit is excessive, but Yale should offer something more than an apology. Yale made the mistake of not checking their own records before sending the verification, so they messed up.

I agree. Yale should do more than just an apology. It should fire those who made the mistakes, whether be the head of art and science or the administrative staff, but getting sued for $50 mil for such oversight is frivolous and ridiculous.

I can only assume what Yale mean when it says the action will be regretable. It might means Yale won't accept grad students from Dongguk anymore. That will absolutely destory Dongguk's reputation, more than by this pity scandal.

I am not an attorney but shouldn't Dongguk need to suffer some monetary damage in order to seek money compensation? I don't think it suffered reputation damage because it did do it's homework, and it got screwed by the fraud and Yale's screw up. If it seeks money from Yale it should seek money from the fraud as well.

At the same time, Dongguk can't just do nothing and look like a b!tch. And it doesn't have the jurisdiction to ask Yale to fire those who screwed up. But it got to prove it suffered 50 mil worth of reputation losses, which is going to be impossible. The amount is just like any other typical american lawsuit, to seek an excessive amount so they can get as much as possible in the settlement. I am sure the sue will get dropped because it's just a tactic to show Yale to not take this incident lightly.

The Asian education system is messed up bad.

So many cases of academic fraud.

If a university cannot be relied on to verify the records of students, who can be relied on? The student?

Now, in this case, the damage was a loss of reputation. The party they should be suing primarily is the fake degree holder. But Yale has a lot of responsibility in this case because without its validation, the student would not have gotten away with it. Now, the degree was in art history. As an art historian, one may be in charge of verifying the value of works of art. Imagine if you were the owner of a painting worth millions, but this individual was not able to determine that. You sell your piece for what it is valued at, which is millions less than what it's worth. Degrees do count for something, so let's be realistic here.

A loss of reputation is damaging to a university. Why do people want to go to the name schools? A big part of the reason is prestige. They know that they will get more respected and sought after by employees if they graduate from name schools. I know some top firms will only hire graduates from places like Harvard, Yale, etc. If Yale lost its prestige, then it would lose revenue in terms of student fees. So let's get real now.

Even for less prestigious schools, this is an issue. Schools need all the prestige they can get to attract the most and best students.

It's standard procedure to accept enrollment verifications as proof of attendance for grad schools in the US. So it's not only Korea that does this. Why should anyone be familiar with Yale's academic community. Yale's verification should be enough to confirm a student's attendance, even though, in this case, it did not. Then, it would be pointless to even offer such a verification. Anyone that wanted to check out the credentials of someone would have to contact people who worked at the university. University diplomas would only have symbolic value. This case is one in a million, so I don't think you should dismiss the verification certificate altogether.



This has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. Whether or not she published.



You just put this in because it serves your own interests. It's not a lack of foreign professors, but a lack of foreign professors from the right universities and departments, meaning the places that people are most likely to fake degrees from. And even if you work in the same department, that doesn't mean you know everybody.

I don't see how it is that *any* university, much less Yale, can not know who did or did not graduate from it. Unless they had another student with the same name who actually did graduate from there I don't see how it's possible to be confused about it. And also where do they get off claiming a fax they sent was a forgery?! Something fishy is going on here. Did some friend of Shin's sneak into a Yale office and use their fax perhaps?

This whole ordeal makes me think Dongduk is superficial and embarrassed for having hired a person based on degree. It means if I can produce a fake harvard degree, I can get a job there too even if I am a dumb$hit. Dongduk should re-examine it's hiring protocols too and not just blaming Yale. Why it didn't ask the fraud to produce evidence of her credentials at Kansas University? Talk about being an Ivy @$$ licker. KU might not verify her degrees, and the fruad would've stopped there.

The hire should be weighted majority on interviews and verifiable accomplishments, not just a piece of paper or fax.

Anyone worth their salt in their field would know of and be familiar with the works of at least a few academics at Yale. It wouldn't be difficult for a first-rate academic in her field quickly to sniff her out. Evidently there were none, Korean or foreigner, at Dongguk.

But you weren't talking about the work of academics. You were talking about the academic community, meaning students, researchers, and professors. It is possible for someone not to know someone at Yale even if they are familiar with their work.

So let's say you're on a university hiring committee. One of the first questions to ask (at least in a country with normal universities) is 'under whom did you study?'. Then you go to http://arthistory.yale.edu/faculty/ and find out a bit about them. In the event that 'Dr' Shin has done her fraud research well enough to look up a name, say Professor Dunlop, you then click on http://arthistory.yale.edu/faculty/faculty...lty_dunlop.html and find out that her area is late mediaeval Europe, not Asia. Then you can scroll down and see that there's a Professor Jaqueline Jung, quite likely married to a Korean (won't JAD be jealous). Even if you don't speak a word of English you could try emailing her and see if her husband could translate a couple simple questions about 'Dr' Shin. Then you could keep scrolling down and find out that there are only two professors, http://arthistory.yale.edu/faculty/faculty...gpruksawan.html and http://arthistory.yale.edu/faculty/faculty...ulty_tseng.html who specialise in East Asian art. If indeed 'Dr' Shin studied at Yale she will no doubt be able to tell you the names of their latest publications even if you're unable to fire off a simple email or phone call to them.

The above is something that any idiot with a BA should be able to do. The fact that no on at Dongguk did just demonstrates why Korean universities will continue to be regarded as a joke to any westerners familiar with them.

Anyone can just walk into any classroom and pretend to be a visiting student. Then with that experience he/she then can talk about being an actual student. If you really want to fake a credential. It's pretty easy with modern technology.

Oh shut up. You were wrong and you know it. You said "academic community", so don't try backtracking now. You are a middle school teacher, not a university academic, so don't try to talk about knowing all this information about universities when we all know its hearsay from fellow disgruntled English teachers. They are people, if they have any experience at Korean universities, who don't have PhD's, so wouldn't qualify as true professors. These "professors" are not given the same responsibilities as true professors at Korean universities. So just stop with that bull$hit right now. I just pointed out in my previous post that you only referred to the academic community and not their work. Deal with it. Of course, you had to take that as an insult. Learn to take some constructive criticism. Of course, if you spew insults, don't be surprised if you get slammed back. Punk.

I've been the graduate student representative on a departmental hiring committee and know how the process should work. I've also been part of several 'academic communities' at universities and if we couldn't quickly sniff out a fake Yale PhD I would understand why we would be reckoned a joke. I'd still love to hear the full story of how Shin was outed. My guess is that it was by a visiting professor and not a true (Klown) professor.

Here is what happened. September 2005, her degree was confirmed to be real by the associate dean Ms.Pamela Schirmeister. July 2007, they contacted Yale again and was told that Shin was not a student of Yale. 5 months later, Yale contacted again saying that they made a mistake and confirmed her degree.

Actually, the story is out and she was sniffed out by a Korean associated with Dongguk University. This was after they received the Yale confirmation. A Korean who had studied at Yale raised suspicions about her attendance. Sorry to put a damper on your "foreigners are best and Koreans suck" fantasy. And visiting foreign professors don't take on the job of vetting job applicants to Korean universities. There is a law that foreigners can only work for a few years at a university. Only established professors do this, so your theory fails. The reason people see this as a joke is because of the amount of the lawsuit. Of course, if a Korean university had verified a fake student like Yale did, you would be all over them. But, no, you do not put any blame on Yale. You always find a way to blame Koreans. Typical Korea-hating hypocrite.

Yeah, your rant is just a speculation just like all your other posts.

Then why have Professor Steven Garrigues and Professor Andrew Finch (head of the English department) been at KNU a combined total of about 35 years? I can also garuntee that no fake Yale-PhD would ever make it into their department, or even try to. Some universities have 3- or 5-year limits on contract instructors, but this is not a nation-wide law. How many people do you know who've worked at Korean universities? When was the last time you even visited a Korean university?

At any rate, the Korean who sniffed her out - who was he / she? Someone working for Dongguk? A student there? Why did it take more than two years?

It did not take two years. They just checked again two years later and Yale made a minor mistake which resulted a chaos. Thx for your concern b.t.w.

Well, they are the exception. Their schools must REALLY want them. I know it is standard for ordinary professors to get only a few years in their contract. They are ENGLISH professors. Perhaps they have PhD's, but they are ENGLISH professors, so I can see why they would be seen as valuable if they have a PhD. I'm sure other applicants would not get into some departments of other universities. You are seriously so arrogant and racist to think that all Koreans are so incompetent. I know lots of people through family and friends who have worked at Korean universities or attended them, not just foreign English professors. They span the spectrum of publishing, law, medicine, etc. from the top Seoul universities. When have you set foot on a Korean campus? That doesn't mean $hit and you know it. Anyone can physically walk on to a Korean campus. But not just anyone can have the knowledge to know the workings of a Korean university.

This story came out several years ago. Why don't you do your own research? I watched it on TV.



Yes, just give it up. You were wrong. Just deal with it. It is so like you to find a way to insult Koreans and blame them. Jeez, Koreans can be competent. Your racist brain needs to figure that out.

Was she not working for Dongguk for 2+years with her fake Yale PhD? For pulling that off, Dongguk should get some kind of international award for incompetence.

But Korean universities must feel very reassured that they have the backing of someone with your vast insight. As someone who talks with foreigners, gyopos, and Koreans who work for Korean universities on a regular basis, works with 45 people who went to Korean universities, some of whom are doing second degrees, and keeps in touch with former students at Korean universities, I must be sadly out to lunch when I label them incompetent under-acheivers. My co-worker who continually complains about his thesis supervisor and how he'd love to have a foreign thesis supervisor must be even more out of whack, eh?

YuBumsuk, Shin had a lot of people fooled, not just Dongguk University. I'd say Yale shares much responsibility in allowiong Shin to fake her credentials. Not that Dongguk University and the Korean academic community aren't responsible at all.. but the most culpable in this national scandal is Shin herself and to a lesser extent, Yale University.

I just can't accept that I was wrong. Gotta find a way to blame those Koreans. Yup, gotta find a way. Gotta show jstele how much experience and knowledge I have with Korean universities. Gotta count the number of people I know. Gotta mention the degrees, yes, graduate degrees. Gotta show jstele.



That's it.

I actually still haven't got my answer from him, and I think I know why.

Because he got called out.

If you think about it, Dongguk does have a right to sue Yale as well as Shin. Because they really are basing their hiring on degrees. Shin could not have verified her own degree. The only entity that could do so is Yale. Even if they talked to people who went there, they have to make absolutely sure that she got a degree from Yale. The only way they can do that that is time effective and reliable (but not in this case) is through an enrollment verification from Yale. So yeah, Yale deserves to be sued.

Well, he was here before. He was talking to you.

Well, you got lost in the shuffle perhaps. Maybe he forgot about you.

Damn!

Answer to and called out on what? That this makes the art history department at Dongguk one of the most incompetent in university history? I don't see what there even is to argue about that.

Evading the question.

What question? If I scan your above replies I see:



A university should be able to find and figure out on their own whether a candidate actually has a PhD from Yale.



Reputation and employability.



Last month. I will again this Saturday.

What am I not answering?

Nothing, but you're dealing with this:



Why do they attack? It's their nature.

Agreed.

I seriously don't get why Yale verified the degree. If you call my university and ask them for info on me, they'll either tell you to bugger off because it is confidential, or they'll check their records and confirm the paper trail.

Yale dropped the (a) ball here.

With such statements as above, YuBumsuk proves his worthiness as an expat tard in Korea.

We would all agree that if it happens in America it would be far worse, right?


A couple of cases:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilee_Jones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Hewitt_%28impostor%29


And there may be many more cases, perhaps involving non Ivy-league schools.

The case of Marilee Jones is notable. She wasn't posing as a professor and worked as the Dean of Admissions at MIT -- for 10 fu-king years, and was uncovered only April of last year.

The second case is quite funny - you'd think it would have been easier for him just to get a PhD, especially in the 40s and 50s. The Jones case is outrageous, though she was hired as a lower-down and worked her way up. Also, her job was of a non-academic nature. For a university department to hire a professor with a fake Yale PhD in 2005 still takes the cake. Even if it was real the fact that they'd hire someone for a position like that who had never published anything in an international journal really says something about the quality of Korean universities.

wow.

so according to yu bum suk, MIT is a crappy university because they hired a faker.

im sorry, as much as I think some Americans are ignorant and retarded, they come nowhere close to the Canadian ESL teachers of Korea. LOL

Evidently a few decades ago MIT had a very crappy hiring policy for administrative workers. However what the officer in charge was guilty of is not academic fraud. That a university department would fail to find out about Shin suggests major academic failings.

considering that anyone at MIT would not have problems accessing english records, makes that case much more ridiculous.

u should learn something by now. think about it.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080331/...le_fake_degrees

So she got 18 months. I wonder if this will be suspended or if she'll actually serve it. If she does it should make a great future deterent.

i see you changed your tune. good job.

A secretary has little in the way of skills to tell whether her co-worker has a fake degree. A fellow professor does, or should.

i don't think someone who teaches elementary kids english is the same as a tenured professor who conducts good research.

thats what this is all about isn't it

What do you do for work again?

I mean, if you're going to go around slagging other people's professions, by all means, show us how qualified you are.

i hit a nerve.

word of advice for u canucks

don't start a thread based on your own personal insecurities, and whine when u get called out on it.

Um, I don't quite follow. I don't teach elementary kids, if that was meant to be a reference to me.