Yeah, but when that religion tells you your ways and your father's/grandfather's ways of living and culture is wrong and immoral, causing them to change their lifestyles which turned out for the worst, that is when it strips you of your pride. The main religions looked down upon indigenous beliefs and made them feel like $hit and convert to their ways, I don't see how that is pride inducing at all. Cmon guys, its not that hard to see. What did Tibetan Buddhism do to Mongolia besides cause ethnic Mongolians to wage civil war against each other, bow down to a foreign spiritual leader, do away with out militant culture, and become appeasers and subjects of the Manchurian Empire? I'm I just crazy?

Yeah, it is superstitious, but it wasn't dogmatic. One is just being unscientific, the other is mind control.

They forced it on us we didn't have a choice, Manchus are to blame not Tibetans. When we had a choice we could do what the Kalmyks did to merge our two belief systems WITHOUT losing our warrior culture. Past is past and we have learnt yes but we should not be against Tibetan buddism just because of a power that has already completely disappeared anyways.

I couldn't give a damn about what religion someone has as long as they know where they come from and are proud.

Tell that to the Egyptians, ever since they became Islamic, they think they are Arabs now.

I'm not blaming the Tibetans for much, never really had anything against them save for a few times they leeched wealth from our country in the name of religion, but we had problems with everyone, no biggie. But I am totally against their religion and see no need for us to keep flocking to it like it was the greatest thing since Genghis Khan's Yasaq.

I'm not saying we should flock to it at all, but respect their beliefs enough to leave them alone in their own ways. We can even learn some of their principles that apply to life in the 21st century, but doesn't mean that we have to be completely mindwiped by them. Our Yasa is our code and will always be, as our foundation we can wade through all the religions ways yet still say 'ok fine, continue your monkhood' - in a nice way.

Your beliefs are pure nonsense. In reality, the Mongols began their long downward spiral in the 14th century, at least 200 years before Altan Khan embraced Tibetan Buddhism in the 1570s.



The key words here are “used to,” as in 700 years ago. I hate to say this, but you Mongols need to move forward in life and stop your wishful thinking for the past, because praying at the Chingis Khan alter will get you no where in life.



The fact that Tibetans are still fighting for their culture and political independence makes me proud to be associated with them. They have more of the Mongol fighting spirit than any Inner Mongolian Chinese national posting here.

Seriously, I thought Mongolians were past Tibetan Buddhism. Okay, we had our history with it but its really a foreign influence and was even used as a tool against us (religion used for power, surprise!). Our people are now an educated, 20th century success. We gathered more scientists, engineers, doctors, and mathematicians than ever before in our history. We even sent our citizens into space thanks to other enlightened secular countries. Secularity and non-religiosity was a success for Mongolia, why turn backwards now just because of some people's miserable nostalgia with a foreign superstition. We should be moving towards the 21st century, not backwards.

Nothing says 21st century like shamanism.

You got it right! The Tibetans tried to unify us, because they knew the real threat came from Manchuria.

LOL, its ironic you're lecturing me to stop thinking about the past when in actuality you are living the past. Tibetan Buddhism is dead in Mongolia and has been dead. The only reason it has any mention is because some old people think its so ever important to subscribe to a superstition that somehow makes us look more civilized and advanced than a non-religious, secular country.

This is fu-ked. Altaic, you have your beleifs drop the pushing them on others. Same goes for the rest of us.

Where am I pushing my beliefs on others? Yeah, okay I think Buddhism is a useless, unscientific, and superstitious religion. People don't have to agree with that. Or is it because...GASP...I'm not showing respect for religion!

I'm athiest, I don't give a damn about religion. lol

As am I, I shouldn't be forced to bow down to someone else's religious beliefs, especially if they are egregious and have no scientific backing whatsoever. Virtue of belief is not automatic command of respect. If that was true, then people should bow down in respect to the Communists and Nazis who had their share of beliefs on the world as well.

My patriotism cries out against organised religion, but not spirituality which is every individual's own personal journey to find his own place in the universe. Spirituality does not mean backward mentality, in fact it can even inspire and guide us. It works for some, not for others, but either way people should have the freedom to choose. We weren't given the same freedom during Manchurian reign but now we have to ask ourselves whether we would want to be part of that culture that has already been completely assimilated into China.



Like I said Buzava your predicaments that all Inner Mongolians have been completely chinafied is false and there's already an IM poster here in this very thread that contradicts entirely to your statement.

''The fact that Tibetans are still fighting for their culture and political independence makes me proud to be associated with them. They have more of the Mongol fighting spirit than any Inner Mongolian Chinese national posting here.''

By that same token, I can say Uighurs are more to be proud of then all of them. They hunt down Chinese oppressors and use armed force against the occupiers of their land, true freedom fighters. What do the Tibetans do again? Pray, hold signs, and get mauled by Chinese firepower?

We're going in circles, we need some booze, a wrestle, and a chinazi troll to pick on

Dude, I'm not the one seeking a return of past glory. Your talk of Altaic unity is wishful thinking and a complete waste of bandwidth. The Muslims regard you as an infidel who stole Chingis Khan's glory from them.

I also could care less if Tibetan Buddhism is dead in Mongolia. We don't need any weak hands.

That's what happens when you talk about religion, pisses the $hit out of you.

Alright buddy, at least I still have faith (irony!). Even though I'm half Oirat, I don't see anything great about what my ancestors did. They attacked other lands and failed to hold on to them, got kicked out of their own country by Eastern Mongols, and are now living in some $hithole in Russia. Whoop dee doo.

*walks away *

First, I never said all Inner Mongolians have become chinafied, just the majority.

Second, who are you referring to? Can't be Bigmonkey, because he's American.

Damn bigmonkey is getting lax with fu-king Chinese ladies, he's not breeding us enough Chinazi trolls these days
So much for unity, but I guess you can all see the underlying problems we face now.

@Buzava
I'm talking about his father

Your beloved Uyghurs also played a role (along with the Kazaks) in the slaughter of at least 30,000 innocent Torghut men, women and children in Turkestan in the 1850s during the Muslim rebellion. What goes around comes around.

I don't know why some people are whining, this is a topic against religion in the first place anyway. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen b!tch!

So, 30,000 is nothing compared to what the Oirats did to Central Asia in the 18th century. We all have blood on our hands. And your example is even more proof how ludicrous, useless, dangerous, and divisive religion can be. I'm glad we can agree on one thing!

Hell you guys want me to play along with this disunity?

F-CK KHALKA MONGOLS AND MANCHU MOFOS WE HAD THE LAST TRUE MOTHER-F-CKING MONGOL EMPIRE UNTIL THAT fu-kING BULL$hit LEADING TO NEAR GENOCIDE OF MY TRIBE

Now if I keep thinking that HOW THE fu-k are we meant to be strong again?!!

Dude, what are you talking about? I'm totally against ethnocentrism among any Mongols. As a Khalkha and an Oirat offspring, I know how stupid both sides were. And to top it off, difference in religious sect between the two exacerbated the internal strife between the two ethnicities. So let's just concentrate on the main topic here, religion fu-king sucks.

Agreed, and it sure fu-king does.

Your comparing apples and oranges. We Oirats committed no atrocities against anyone in the 19th century.

What does that matter? You just told me what goes around, comes around. And we also had blood on our hands when we screwed the Kazaks over in Turkestan when we teamed up with the Soviets and invaded the region under Choibolsan, beginning their exodus out of their native land. Please, everyone is guilty.

No offense intended, especially to your people who suffered the same fate as Kalmyks during WW2.

It matters, because if the Chinese gave the Uyghurs full autonomy, the Oirats would suffer under Muslim rule. The Kazaks are on Dzungar land.

When did it become Dzungar land? Didn't they lose control of it and it went back to the original inhabitants? Plus, you seem to think Islam has had a detrimental effect on the nomads of the steppes. Maybe now you can understand why I think Buddhism had a terrible effect on the Mongols as well.

On the topic of religion, the Mongols believed in God. So you guys that follow atheism do not even believe in the ancient shaman religion. We Kalmyks still believe in God. That's a major difference between Kalmyk Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism.

Dude, don't say things like follow atheism. Nobody follows atheism. Atheism is a convenient word that religious made up for people who refuse to have theistic beliefs. Also, the Mongols believed in the eternal blue sky, more specifically. When you say God, you could talking about a million different kinds(including Ganesh, the flying elephant of the Hindus), most conventionally the Judeo-Christian view of God. But for atheists, its better to have one answer than a thousand.

There was no defined territory, since we were nomads, but the ancient homeland of the Oirats generally includes present-day eastern Kazakhstan, southern Siberia from the Iyrtysh river to western Mongolia and northern Turkestan. Always has been. Thru conquest, we added Amdo, western Inner Mongolia, northern Kyrgyzstan and southern Turkestan. I think we even controlled part of Afghanistan at one time. Tibet was under our satellite. We controlled all the trade routes thru Central Asia to Kalmykia.

Actually, tribalism was the primary source of the downfall of the Turco-Mongol tribes. But once the Turks embraced Islam, they counted us as their number one enemy.

And you don't think it had anything to do with the Oirats not being seen as legitimate rule since none of them had any royal descent from Genghis Khan. That was a lot of people's objection to the Oirats in the first place, underscoring religion.

I think that's an overrated argument, because the Khalkha supported Esen Khan of the Dorben Oirat in the 15th century. The problem is we Oirats are hot blooded people and are VERY tribal. I'm hot headed. Both you and Subotai appear to be as well. Hence the name halmag, a corruption of the Mongolian words gol (fire) and aimak (people).

Our Oirat military was so brutal that we drove the Khalkha into the hands of the Manchu and the Kazak into Russian hands. That's a fact. Throughout Central Asia, the local people still sing ancient folk ballads lamenting the losses they suffered from our military expeditions. We plundered Lhasa, the seat of our religion. In China today, the Oirat tribes are not recognized as separate people on the census, in contrast to the Turks and certain other Mongolic groups. After Mongolia's independence, the government ordered the asassination of Ja Lama for fear that he would resurrect the Dzungar Khanate. The Buzava were targeted for extermination by the Bolsheviks both during and after the Russian Civil War. During WW2, the Kalmyks committed acts of vengence against the Communists that startled the German army. There are places in eastern Europe, especially in Poland, where Kalmyks would be killed by the local population (hear that Urban Culture Paranoia). We are our own worst enemy.

religion is a drug as we were preached in the soviet era, it was supposed to be a spiritual guide for humankind, their window to piece, but as we all know wicked humanbeings turned it into something terrible, an excuse to fulfill their desire. the religion itself is harmless, it`s the humans who is making it so wrong in million different way, e.g in bible it promotes in-breeding from the first page, it says, adam was the first man and god made woman called eve to keep him company, they had 2 sons together and that was beginning of humankind. but bible never says god creating more people than adam and eve, so we all must be offsprings of adam and eve and their 2 sons who fu-ked with their mother, and produced more mother fu-kers literally. that`s some f-up story to imagine and spread it around the world isn`t it, but they still did it and many people believe in bible. this is just one example of how humans can twist the things badly.

I prefer the blue wolf ne day over "Adam and Eve"

LOL, religion is just as harmless and exploited as Communism.

That's why I don't understand your opposition against looking at the big picture. When Altaic people were able to set their differences and fight together as one force, we were the master race. We ruled over half the world under our own image and spread supremacy like never before, even Europeans could never match this kind of feat. But once we started to bicker over our differences and fight amongst each other, we had Mongolians taken hostage by Manchurians, Central Asians by Russians, and Oirats exiled to Eastern Europe. How was all the fighting amongst ourselves a good thing? I'm glad history exists so it can teach a lesson to the people who continue to bicker among differences and continue to make us weak. Maybe I am just being hopeless, how the hell can anyone else come together if our Mongolians can't accept each other? Pathetic.

non taken i just didn't want to go there

cuz debates like this can't be solved or won over the internet

agreed aaauuuuuuuu

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man, i`m not really sure about becoming 1 nation, see america `big melting pot` people still have big problem over racial differences, and religion isn`t going to make it any better, agree with the having fun part though, a slab of heineken for my next day off

It was brotherhood at gun point. Nothing more, nothing less.