Mister Coconut,

I made a neutral statement. That's why I said, "Correct me if ... "

But if you feel you have to disagree with someone, or you have to press your own version or interpretation of something, I suggest you do so in a much more straightforward n graceful manner. That's if you know the meaning of grace.

Being slyly n rudely condescending to someone you don't yet know so well, just cos ya don't like what they're saying, does NOT mean that you r that much more knowledgeable or wise. It just means you lack good breeding. For if you are well bred enough, you wouldn't speak or behave in such a way.

FYI, in Semenanjung Malay, the word 'jambi' has zero meaning.

I don't always post the links for my threads. Neither do a lot of other guys for theirs. But I'll post the link for this tomorrow.

You are a big @$$hole. A worthless pig. That rude enough for you? You assmonkey. BTW, Kelapa responded to dreamhunter. Why are you replying at all? Do you have two accounts??????

BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got confused, cos I was writing around pretty much the same stuff in other threads. I wasn't jumpin in to Dreamhunter's rescue. Neither am I his clone.

N who're you? I wasn't speakin to you, was I? If anyone's gonna get upset it should be Mister Coconut. Not you deluded Vishnu-avatar wannabe.

Oh. Now I get it. You're a Coconut Clone, ain't ya?

I heard that's what they're tryin to do in Java. Make coconut clones. Cos they can't do it properly with oil palm over there.

Rude enuff for me? Naaah, just bounces off my skin, like water off a duck's back. Sorry to dissapoint ya.

Actually you look to me from here like a much bigger arsehole. You're not even a worthless pig. You're a worthless slurry of slimy swine $hit. From a pig that had a bad diarrhoea. Due to eating another pig's $hit.

Well, in that case maybe you're worth something. As manure for the veggies that your mom buys from the grocery store.

You stinkin turdbag.

Since you've got a much bigger arsehole, why don't you try shovin your own d!ck into it some time? Or into your own pussy. Cos I heard Vishnu avatars hv got both.

That's if your d!ck is long enuff for it.

Oh. Maybe you can do that while flying about on your imaginary garuda. He might find it interesting.

Enuff said for a day. Byyyyyeeeeeeeeee.

Guys guys please...., no need to get rude and being hostile....

Lets discuss the Srivijayan Empire in nice and civilized manner....
Everybody are welcome to express their tought and oppinion.
Backed with reference or proof is preferable rather than pointless arguing...

Peace and cheers everyone....




hehe.... emang gue lebih suka kontribusi di wiki Inggris karena jangkauannya lebih global daripada di wiki Indonesia.
Tapi belakangan ini gue lagi males banget nih kontribusi di wikipedia Inggris, soalnya ada editor rese' (berinisial Mrbb dan StSro) yang nyebelin banget, mereka itu "Gila Referensi". Gue ngisi tambahan data (fakta) yang cuma gara-gara enggak ada referensinya (karena gue lupa dari buku mana, biasa berdasarkan pengetahuan umum orang Indonesia lah), langsung di-undo atau di-delete sama keparat-keparat gila referensi itu....
Ya udah, malezz deeh....



Ntar deh kalo sempet mau bikinin versi Indonesianya.
Filipina memang ada kemungkinan masuk dalam wilayah kemaharajaan Sriwijaya, tapi seperti biasa..., ahli sejarah berhati-hati, karena bukti-bukti belum kuat, misalnya belum ditemukan prasasti di Filipina atau konfirmasi kabar dari luar (biasanya China) yang menguatkan bukti pengaruh Sriwijaya atas Filipina, cuma ada kepercayaan bahwa Visayan berasal dari kata Wijayan, alias wilayah milik Sriwijaya, tapi itu belum merupakan bukti yang kuat.
Sedangkan kawasan lain seperti Semenanjung Melayu, Sumatra, Kalimantan Barat, dan Jawa Barat (Sunda) memang ada bukti berdasarkan kabar catatan pengelana China dan prasasti/sumber-sumber catatan lokal.

Ke-GR-an. I am shooting at dreamh, not you. Yours are still acceptable. Notice too, I am not suggesting "put a link". I am also too lazy putting links. However, readers here can judge whether a source is questionable or not. (About "my bred", well, I learn plant breeding btw. not human breeding).

@Majjy: Merbabu oke kok. Dia cuma menjaga kualitas aja, soalnya situ nulis di artikel penting kali (masuk proyek Wiki bertopik Indo). Makanya, maen di wiki id aja, any good contribution is welcomed. Lagian bagus buat meningkatkan kualitas. btw, gambarnya pakai sofwer apa?

It's working just fine Dreamhunter.

Tetep aja gue 'empet plus sebel ama dia.....
Soalnya komentarnya 'sok dan patronizing banget.... Gue kalo udah gitu malezz urusan ama orang kyk gitu....
yaudah ignore ajah...

Neway... gw bikinnya pake Adobe Illustrator....

Oh iya gw juga yang bikin gambar vektor (format svg) Garuda Pancasila

Ehehehe, gpp lah majjy. Gw jg sempet konflik sm org2 yg merasa dirinya "besar", tp kt kan sama2 pgn yg terbaik bwt tanah air.

But the Philippines already got inscription in Old Malay to prove that they were a part of Srivijaya (at least the southern part). I think that is a good enough proof, just as good as any proof on Sunda region as a part of Srivijaya.

I am NOT Dreamhunter, you Garudikck.

Majjy said


Berarti elo bisa pake Inkscape? Gue dari dulu mau bikin diagram tumbuhan/hewan pakai ini tapi kok susah banget ya? Terus, kalau gambar peta pakai Inkscape bisa juga situ?

@Bhas: Prasasti apa di Filipina Selatan? Ada yg baru lagi? Link?

Ga ada yg baru, maksud gw ya Laguna Inscription tea...

Laguna Inscription sih di utara; gak nyebut tempat di selatan, cuma daerah2 di sekitar Manila (plus Medang(?)).

With all due respect, I think you need to learn to be more open. You r too closed, I think. Otherwise, it's difficult to share n exchange info.

Actually we do not use the term 'jambi' to mean 'pinang' in Semenanjung Malay. To us it only means the name of a place in Sumatra.

I cannot locate the URL relating to the Khmer Jambi story yet. It's around somewhere in my files. I'll give it when I find it.

In the meantime, maybe you'll find the following, based on genetic studies, quite interesting:


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...i?artid=2408594


It shows that the Malay peoples migrated, ultimately coming from southern China, to Semenanjung first. Then they moved out in a north-to-south direction n a west-to-east direction, i.e. from Semenanjung to Sumatra n Java islands, n from Semenanjung to Borneo. Not the other way around.

At best, they maybe moved out to all 4 places simultaneously from their small perahu/sampan in the middle of the South China Sea. Which would have been a rather risky venture considering the perahu/sampan technology of that time (2,500 - 4,000 BC).

Personally speaking, I would have thought, based on simple logic, that there would also have been land-n-river journeys along the Mekong Valley regions from Yunnan into Myanmar n Thailand n onward into Semenanjung, but this study hasn't shown that.

^^ I close myself of anything that sounds speculative, unless it is stated so; part of scientific scepticism, simply. I stick to main theory, but of course alternative are welcomed, as long as it is supported with hard evidence. Breaking a good theory needs more tasks, doesnt it?

Good map you give, the difficulty is that it doesn't fit the linguistic and cultural facts; or, in better way, how can we use this fact to integrate with other facts from other fields. Where are the pinoys? Notice however, only one sample point in Vietnam and a cluster in Hainan (why? I am expecting more samples taken in Laos, Siam, Kra isthmus and Malay peninsula). Both may have Austronesian relationship, since in that area Austronesian languages were/are spoken (Cham in vietnam and Tsat in Hainan). And the main theory suggests relationship of the Yunnan peoples with Austronesian speaking peoples but not through Indochina.

I believe too there were movements from Indochina to the archipelago through the peninsula (there was no sea there, remember?). However, in the context of recent "malayness" as represented by Srivijaya and forth, such direction is lack of evidence.

My friend,

You just can't whittle the factor of speculation down to absolute zero. Even guys like Michelangelo, Galileo, Charles Darwin, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein n Stephen Hawking speculated too, before they arrived at final conclusive evidence.

All research starts with speculation.

Dude. I'm a science guy too.

Patterns of genetic exchange/transmission do not always precisely match patterns of linguistic or cultural exchange/transmission. Folks can exchange/transmit culture n language elements without necessarily exchanging/transmitting genes. For instance between 2 cultures that had v close n long-continuing trading or political links but did not interbreed profusely.

The Pinoys? Maybe they island-hopped northwards from Borneo to Mindanao.

I wished the same too i.e. studies covering Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia n Semenanjung, because to me the land-n-river route would seem a more natural route, but then that's all we've got at the moment. Actually I lifted it off a threader named Suzuka (also called Hiruka). He/she occassionally comes in into Indo Chat, Cambo Chat, Filo Chat, Malaysia Chat etc.

I wasn't concerned with recent or not-so-recent Malay. I was just talking about Malay peoples in the entirety of their history.

You cannot allow yourself to be fixated by Srivijaya alone. Or even Malayu Jambi. Srivijaya covered only 6 centuries of Malay history. That's including the final 2 centuries of Malayu Dharmasraya. Whereas the northern Semenanjung Malay kingdoms have been around from early first century, some of them still surviving to this day.

A map by Claudius Potolomey drawn in 150 AD already showed Langkasuka n Gangga Negara on the Semenanjung, which they called Khersonesus Aureus (Semenanjung Emas).

Anyway, we'll still keep digging.

Lets not mistaken Austronesian with Malay.....

Don't make me start the lecture again about the difference about the meanings of Melayu or Malay in Malaysia (in racial senses with Indian and Chinese as counterparts) and in Indonesia (in ethnical senses, Suku Melayu is just one of many Indonesian tribes together with Jawa, Sunda, Bali, Bugis, Makassar, Mandar, Minangkabau, Aceh, Dayak, Minahasa, Ambon, Sasak, Flores, Timor, Dani, Asmat, etcetc).


For more its worth, yes we acknowledge that Srivijaya is Malay Empire, just as we acknowledge Majapahit as Javanese Empire....
Because Srivijaya shared close ancestry with Malayu Kingdom near Melayu river (first coined the name of Melayu ever and the kingdom later absorbed by Srivijaya), they are the ancestors of Suku Melayu and using Old Malay language in their ancient inscriptions.

Kedukan Bukit Inscription


The text in Old Malay is:

svasti śrī śakavaŕşātīta 605 (604 ?) ekādaśī śu
klapakşa vulan vaiśākha dapunta hiya<m> nāyik di
sāmvau mangalap siddhayātra di saptamī śuklapakşa
vulan jyeşţha dapunta hiya<m> maŕlapas dari minānga
tāmvan mamāva yam vala dualakşa dangan ko-
duaratus cāra di sāmvau dangan jālan sarivu
tlurātus sapulu dua vañakña dātam di mata Japanese
sukhacitta di pañcamī śuklapakşa vula<n>….
laghu mudita dātam marvuat vanua …..
śrīvijaya jaya siddhayātra subhikşa .....

The translation in Malay Language is:

Selamat dan bahagia! Dalam Shaka 605, pada sebelas
hari bulan terang dari bulan Waisyakha Baginda naik
kapal mencari untungnya pada tujuh
hari bulan terang dari bulan Jyestha Baginda berangkat
dari muara Tamvan membawa bala dua laksa dengan
... dua ratus pawang di kapal dengan yang jalan kaki seribu
tiga ratus dua belas banyaknya datang di Matajap
suka cita. Pada lima hari bulan terang dari bulan Asada
belayar mudik, datang membuat benua ...
Srivijaya kota yang berjaya, yang bahagia, dan yang makmur!

Not enough Majjy:



"Mengalap" ("ngalap") used in Jakartan Malay (or javanese influence?). "Wanua" is old term refers to "land", "place". At that time, people already believed in "hari baik" like we do now!

Whoaaaa! Now you reckon you're really getting into serious professorial mode huh?

Well, if you enjoy giving a lecture alone, to yourself, in absolute silence, feel free dude. Nobody's stoppin ya.

Wonder what's afflicting guys like ya. Are ya that scared of being taken over or something?

I did NOT say that Jawa, Sunda, Bali, Bugis, Makassar, Mandar, Dayak, Minahasa, Ambon, Sasak, Flores, Timor, Dani, Asmat, etc. etc. also came from southern China. Did I? Or maybe you're just getting jumpy.

I'm happy to let ya all island people remain forever in the consummate bliss of your own islandic history.

You've got to be able to sense/feel which meaning of 'Malay' someone is talking about from the context of what he's saying. For example, right now, I mean 'Malay' in its biggest, broadest sense, i.e. the people descended from Proto-Malays who came from somewhere in southwestern China (read: Yunnan), some of whom became Deutro-Malays, before they became 'pre-modern Malays' n subsequently 'modern Malays' living in Semenanjung as well as ancient Burma, Thailand n Cambodia, as well as coastal areas of Borneo, Sumatra etc.

Not just the present Semenanjung Malays.

Are you now still insisting that Palembang Srivijaya or Malayu Dharmasraya were the ONLY ancestors of all those 'Malay' peoples? Well, for a start Malayu Jambi only came up around 400 AD, while Palembang Srivijaya in 7th century earliest.

You think our Langkasukan kingdoms in northern Semenanjung in 1st century AD were Mon or Khmer, right? Before Srivijayan Malays came n Malayised them, right? Well, in that case you couldn't be further from the truth.

Cos the earliest kingdom in Cambodia itself, predating your earliest Javanese kingdoms, was Malay. In Ligor (Nagara Sri Dharmaraja) (Nakhon Si Thammarat) in ancient Dvaravati too. As well as a few other places.

If anything, it's the Mons n Khmers themselves who were v likely our ancestors' descendants. Thereby making them our cousins.

Hmm..., maybe you miss my point...., I say we should not confuse Austronesian with Malay.... that's all....

If you wanna used the term Proto-Malay or Deutro-Malay be my guess, but usually we here in Indonesia always put Malay in ethnical senses....., not in racial; as Suku Melayu, not Ras Melayu.

Here in Indonesia not all of us agree the notions of Malay as a Race, or Malay equal Austronesian. Some may agree with Malay in broader sense as of our common ancestors (thanks to ideas exchange and influence from Malaysia), but we usually use more neutral name: Austronesian, rather than Malay.....
Why...? because we treated suku Melayu as just a member of this large family, not the origin, the leader, or whatsoeva.
Putting all of this diverse yet similar family of Austronesian into single label: Malay would gave suku Melayu somewhat "special status" or "copyright" of all heritages belongs to any Austronesian family members (remember the Rasa Sayange disputes, Barongan aka Reog Ponorogo, Batik, and Rendang claiming..?). This kind of "domination" of claims agenda led by minority (suku Melayu) of the Austronesian family certainly not appreciated among other Austronesian ethnicities. In this case resentment especially felt by Javanese whom most of them agree that they have long lasting history, old and refined culture, and ancient heritage older than coastal suku Melayu in Riau, Jambi, and Semenanjung.

You might also face hostility or resentment when you trolling Cambodian and Vietnam chat claiming Funan, Chenla, and Champa as Malay kingdom...., or Khmer as Malay. While many antrophologist usually used the term Austronesian stock instead. And this notions of Malaysian claiming their neighbours heritage here and there as belongs to "Malay" certainly not a best foreign policy....

Hmm..., maybe YOU miss my point now...., r you sure you haven't confused Austronesian with Austroasiatic?

While NOT forgetting that these were only terms introduced by Europeans fairly recently. Like, did you see any ancient Chinese, Pali, Tamil, Arab, Persian records mentioning anything remotely sounding like 'Austronesian' or 'Austroasiatic'.

Since our ancestors came from the mainland, they could only have been 'AustroAsiatic', not 'AustroNesian', to BEGIN with. They only became 'AustroNesian', albeit only in name, when they sailed over to the islands n settled there. Cos their genes were already AustroAsiatic.

Unless you couldn't agree with the fact that 'AustroAsiatic' means 'Southern Asian' while 'AustroNesian' means 'Southern Islandic'. In which case I can't help ya in any way whatsoever.

Why r you so fixated with the differences between between Suku n Ras? A RAS is nothing other than a SUKU grown big.

How many times do I have to repeat that we're not claiming to be ancestors of Javanese n other Indos of islandic nativity. Only your coastal Indo Malays. Some of whom may have been absorbed n assimilated into the more dominant islandic tribes in the regions that their original Malay ancestors initially settled in.

It's only Indos that r so prickly-sensitive regarding anything about ancient Malay anthropological history. Pinoys ain't that easily ruffled. In fact many of them I've threaded with prefer the term Malay rather than the friggin ludicrous "Austronesian".

We're not concerned at all with your Jawa cultural achievement. Why shoud we? We have our own culture too. It's not about being the leader, being dominant or whatever. It's just about setting the record straight.

Like proving that ancient Malay peoples actually migrated north-to-south from Semenanjung/Mainland SEA to Sumatra, rather than south-to-north from Sumatra to Semenanjung.

Iranians r not so sensitive about their nation being descended from Elamites, Medeans, Hittites, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Greeks, Cymmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians etc. etc., apart from Persian. On the other hand, they're v proud of their rich n diversified ancestry. I wonder why you guys r so prickly about it.

I ain't that worried about Khmer or Viet resentment, you might be surprised. A Cambo threader, of all guys, has in fact started a thread in Cambo Chat discussing the possibility of their ancestors being Malay. Try poppin in there sometime.

FYI, several ancient kings of Ligor, Malay Buddhist kings, were widely known to have intermarried with ancient Khmer royalty. Did you know that Suryavarman I, UpaRaja (Junior King) at Nagara Sri Dharmaraja (Ligor) who later moved further up to become king of Khmer empire then based at Lavo (11the century), was a Malay Buddhist prince with a Khmer princess as mother? N Dharmaraja Chandrabhanu as well? Among many others.

Yesssss. Our ancient Malay royalty interbred rather freely with ancient Khmer royalty that time, if you must know.

We're NOT claiming Chenla as Malay. Only Funan (before it was conquered n Khmerised by Chenla in 550 AD). Champa is like 50-50.

But Cham people n north-eastern Semenanjung Malay people (Kelantan n Terengganu) r definitely known n acknowledged to have v close cultural n ethnic links. We can pick up each each other's dialects in next to no time. I know cos I come from Kelantan n we have a big Cham community there.

The Viets, of course, can't give 2 hoots about guys discussing Vietnam being land stolen from Cham people.

Dude. Our ancestors weren't just confined to the Semenanjung. They were all over SEA.

My dear dreamy,
just because scholars used term like Proto-Malay or Deutero-Malay doesnt necessary make these tribes Malay. Geologists call the land once occupied the Peninsula, Strait of Malacca, Strait of Karimata, Java Sea, Sunda Straits, and the adjacent islands as Sundaland, but this doesnt make us Sundanese. Unfortunately, a small Sundanese "ultranationalists" start to claim that this area should belong to the Sundanese. I am afraid you are infested with this problem too.

I dont know about Chenla. However, with the Chams in Kelantan, they are refugees during wars between Khmer-Siam War, Vietnamese invasion to Champa, and French-Vietnamese war after WWII. They are accepted because they are muslims.

Majjy, udah diemin aja. Masalahnya kayaknya bukan di bukti2 yg dia kasih, tapi yang bersangkutan sendiri. Cape. Mending ngomongin topik yg lain aja.

My dear Kelapa.

1. Of course it does, Proto-Malay means Early Malay, while Deutro-Malay means Late Malay. If they weren't Malay, why would anyone bother calling them Early Malay or Late Malay? They could've called them Proto-Bangla, Proto-Tamil or Proto-Jawa, but they didn't, right?

It just means THEY were OUR ancestors. But it does NOT mean that ONLY WE r their descendants. There's a big difference there.

Dude. Sundaland was ... what ... 15,000 years ago? It's a totally different kettle of fish you know. You might as well have called it Arabland, Parsiland or Banglaland for all it matters.

2. Like I don't know that already.

Not only because they're Muslims, but ESPECIALLY because they're our ETHNIC kinsmen. That's why they preferred Kelantan n Terengganu over the other Malaysian states. Cos WE r their closest KINSMEN.

You really think you know them better than we Kelantanese do, right? Well, that's your right.

I know you guys also invaded them several times. But that doesn't mean you really know them as a people as much as we do.

Tell me, which would be EASIER n SAFER to do 2,000 years ago: (1) sail along the coastline in a small perahu from Champa to Langkasuka (n vice versa) via Funan; or (2) sail straight across the big, bad, stormy, open samudra in a small perahu from Champa to Jawa (n vice versa)?

You need to focus dude..... you start to rambling as far as Persia again.....

Whatever lah...., here we're only interested on discussing Srivijaya Empire rather than b!tching about Malay this and Malay that or migrating route of ancestor, or who has the oldest d!ck whatsoeva.....

The fact is the earliest recorded name or first mention of Malay is in Jambi...., we don't care what did they called themself before that, where their ancestor came from, or wheather Malay from Sumatra came from peninsula or moving to peninsula, from Sumatra or even from Borneo....

All of this are your vain attempt to claim the Malay homeland was in Peninsula, Kelantan or Langkasuka as the oldest Malay kingdom.... better loaded yourself with prove before raining us with unnecessary discussion.
Did Kelantan or Langkasuka really that old?
Did they claim and identify themself as Malay before the expansion and absorbsion by Srivijaya whom absorbed first Malayupura and took Old Malay language and culture as theirs...?

Once again Malay for us just as Suku....., we prefer to identify our common Ancestor as Austronesian. not Malay.
Austroasiatic...? no thanks, you need to differentiate those terms dude....
Did you really know the difference between Austronesian and Austroasiatic...?
Belajar lah nak....

Austronesian and Austroasiatic is the terms to describe language family, not race to begin with....
Language usually spread according to ethnicities, but this not always true. You can incorporated alot of Arabic words and Arabic system of writings in your language, but that never make you an Arab in racial senses.
The fact is Austronesian is different from AustroAsiatic:


This is Austroasiatic



This is the complete map of language family, Austronesian is colored in light pink

And those language family is different....


The books here and the established knowledge already identify Indonesian ancestor as Austronesian.

Back to the topic on Srivijaya:
The connection of Srivijaya and Java is more tighter than we might think.... We know that Srivijaya ever attack Tarumanagara and colonize Sunda kingdom in West Java...
And today I just learn an ancient Sundanese mantra to repel bad and malevolent spirits:

"Sieuh, sieuh, ka sabrang ka Palembang! Saguru saelmu teu meunang ganggu!”

"Sieuh" is expression to repel for example chicken, birds, other animals, and any unwanted disturbance.
"Ka sabrang ka Palembang" signifying the origin of this disturbance, Palembang, the center of Srivijaya
"Saguru" we have common teacher
"Saelmu" we have common knowledge
"Teu meunang ganggu" we shouldn't disturb eachothers....

Interesting isn't it...?
(Mugi-mugi eta mantra manjur kanggo ngagebah gangguan ti tatangga alias manehna tea.... )

I think now it's clear where your position is in this discussion. You want to win, dont you? Keep dreamin'. (susah ngomong sama tembok).

Dreamy, it's really simple, you Malaysians got your own concept concerning the concept "Malay", and we Indonesians got our own. Why don't we leave it at that? We don't to be a part of this "Malay race", thank you very much.

Even if we acknowledge you guys as our sisters and brothers, this "saudara serumpun" relationship has already been tarnished by rude ultranationalist Malaysians such as yourself. If you really want to embrace us with your big talk about your great peninsular Malay, boy, you're sooo barking at the wrong tree. We're not interested!

Majjy: Amiin, mugiya pidua urang diijabah ku nu kawasa... Mugiya Bangsa Indonesia ditangtayungan salalwasna ti jalma-jalma du rek ngedoreksakeun urang sadayana. Teu kedah ngarerepot salira kang, embe borokan kieu patut mah tos teu tiasa dielingan deui, angger wae keukeuh peteukeuh, da hate sareng pikiranna oge tos borok, bade kumaha deui atuh.

Oh no they can't leave it at that, Bhas. It's the lifeline of the whole racial supremacist ideology of theirs, the "Ketuanan Melayu" (translation: Malay Supremacy), which basically give them advantage vis-a-vis two huge races, namely "Indian" race and "Chinese" race, as their race, i.e. "Malay" race, is "the owner of the land". Our refusal to acknowledge that "Malay" is indeed a race will turn that utterly racist ideology into a mere bad breath It's impossible for the Malays to be the supreme race if they are not a race at all, isn't it? That's why those bitterly argued with us on this Malay ethnic/race question are only Malaysians of Malay race, not of other races.

Bhasky, let me make it even simpler for you. Read back to my previous several posts. IS there ANYWHERE in there that I said that ALL Indos r part of the Malay race or nation?

Mostly what I've been trying to say, beginning from that map I posted some pages back, is that Malay peoples, ancient Malay peoples, migrated from north-to-south from Semenanjung to Sumatra, not the other way around like you guys hv been saying all this while.

That is all. I'm not claiming Dayaks, Javanese, Sundanese, Madurese, Bataks etc. as the co-descendants of our ancient ancestors. WE do NOT need to claim you guys as part of our Malay race or nation.

But your coastal Malays, including the guys who founded n ran Srivijaya, r definitely our kinsmen.

As for being rude, can you specify where exactly I was rude?

Unless I'm rude as soon as I disagree with some Indo theory on something regarding Malay culture, Malay people, Malay history.

I also like to inject some humour into a topic as far as I can, even if it's deadpan serious. But if ya can't take even that then it's really unfortunate I guess. For you.

My talk is big talk huh? But your talk ain't ever big talk. Well, that's great, man. That's really great.

Well what about you then, reverting suddenly to Javanese in the middle of an English post knowing full well that I won't have the foggiest idea of what you're saying. Slipping into a private conversation in the middle of a public one. What is that if not rude then?

I don't think this thread is the right place to argue about Malaysian KM. That is a domestic issue for us. Pls don't globalise it. We don't have any wish to be supreme outside of our own country.

But if you still wanna do that, you're most welcome to visit the relevant thread in Malaysia Chat.

BTW, we do NOT need your endorsement of our existence as a race or nation. Its validity does NOT hinge on your acceptance or rejection.

Anyway, now I start to wonder why you guys r so sensitive about this matter? Perhaps you're scared that one day your coastal Malays would have naughty thoughts about leaving Indonesia to join their ethnic kinsmen in Malaysia.

Naaaaah. Not likely. Not likely at all. Wouldn't happen. Mmmmm .....

Would it?

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Given up already? So easily?

Pokoknya temboknya tembok Malayu, Pak. Tetep rumit banget kalo mau diroboh si.

Excuse my Bahasa Indo.

Of course AustroNesian is different from AustroAsiatic. AustroNesian means Southern Islandic. Like you guys n your island ancestors. AustroAsiatic technically means Southern Asian, but it is generally used to mean mainland SEAn.

Semenanjung Malays r mixed AustroAsiatic-AustroNesian.

The FIRST Ancient Malay homeland was Yunnan. As was the Mon n Khmer homelands. As was the T'ai n Lao homelands. Yesss, we all shared the same original homeland.

Ancient Malays came out first. Then Mon n Khmer. Then T'ai n Lao.

Ligor, Langkasuka n Gangga Negara were the first recorded formally organised Malay kingdoms. Yes, they ARE that old. If you find it so difficult to believe that, go get that map which Claudius Potolomey drew in 150 AD. It will show Langkasuka n Gangga Negara on a peninsula called Khersonesos Aureus or Golden Peninsula (read: Semenanjung Melayu).

Well, actually there were also other kingdoms called Tun Sun, Pan Pan n ChiTu/Ramtamrittika/TanahMerah mentioned in ancient Chinese writings, which sort of later expanded n merged with Kedah to form Langkasuka.

That makes Ligor, Langkasuka n Gangga Negara the SECOND Malay homelands. While Malayu Jambi was the THIRD Malay homeland.

Dapunta Hyang Sri Jayanasa did NOT create or develop High Malay language/culture. His ancestors were descendants of Sri Lankan royalty who migrated first to Semenanjung before moving on to Sumatra. But later his Palembang Srivijaya adopted High Malay language/culture from Malayu Jambi for use throughout the Srivijayan realm.

For the UMPTEENTH time, I REPEAT, I did NOT say that ALL Indo peoples r descended from Ancient Malay peoples. Jawa, Sunda, Madura, Dayak etc. r NOT descendants of Ancient Malay peoples. But your Suku Melayu ARE definitely descended from ancient seafaring Malay peoples who came from SEAn mainland, including Semenanjung, among others.

Dude. Looks like it's you who's losin focus now. First you say that Austronesian n Austroasiatic r language families. Then you proceed to confirm that you're descended from Austronesians. So that makes you the descendant of a language now, instead of a people. Oh yeah. I bet. The Austronesian language also has a d!ck. I bet.

The EARLIEST recorded mention of Malay was Marayo. King Marayo of Arakan. 2666 BC. The Marayo/Marayu tribe grew n developed in Arakan after transitting there on their way out of Yunnan. Marayo/Marayu gradually became Malayu. Then they gradually moved out into the various regions of ancient SEA. Some of them later sailed across the seas into the SEAn islands, subsequently co-existing with pre-existing native islandic peoples.

The Malayu people that sailed to Jambi from SEAn mainland then gave their tribe's name to the river around which they settled. N when they formed their 1st kingdom, which was in 400 AD, 4 centuries after Langkasuka n Gangga Negara, they called it Malayu.

Malayu Jambi was thus the SECOND earliest recorded mention of Malay. In that regard, maybe we have to thank the Malayu people of Jambi for REVIVING an almost forgotten BRAND that time.

^Read carefully... we're not interested about Langkasuka-duka or Gangga-something as oldest d!cks around mentioned by foreign source (again), Can people of peninsula write their own history to proof their existence themself...? rather than hijacking others historical records...?

Where's the inscriptions and monument in Malay peninsula, soo you must rely on foreign account...?
Can you upload the Ptolemy map that mentioned Langka and Gangga something....? I doubt it ..., they mentioned places in Greek names.



Here we only interested on discussing about Srivijaya....





Sumuhun, leres..., kumaha deui atuh..... pikiran manehna nggeus cupet pisan.... kalahka ieu gangguan teu minggat-minggat....
Eta budak bodona kabina-bina, dikirana kuring teh nyarios basa jawa....
borokokok pisan, nurus tunjung, teu uyahan....





Finally we can see through your true color and agenda....
Malay ultranationalist like you wanna be the center of soo called "Malay World", try to incorporated our brother Malay in Sumatra to join Malaysia. Why should join artificial country like yours?

Sure you can embrace Malay brother in Sumatra..., my suggestion: just open the border and let them immigrate and make a living in peninsula, just like Minangkabau did centuries ago in Negeri Sembilan, or Bugis did in Johor, in no time Malaysia will be flooded by Indonesians. In long terms become "Indonesianized".
The other way around: Malay in Malaysia can join their brethern Malay in Sumatra to join larger family: Indonesia and enjoy Unity in Diversity rather than busy patronizing Indian and Chinese Malaysian in that tiring artificial waltz of race "harmony".

What if you have to argue with a sixth grade schoolboy? Go on? Better let him play with his video game and explore his mother for more exciting things. It is as easy as that.

Let's back to Srivijaya and focus on this Darmakirti guy, as mentioned in Indonesian history books. Is he really the same persona with Dharmarak$hita (see 1st page of this thread) ? I compare two articles in wikipedia (on Dharmakirti and Dharmarak$hita/Serlingpa). Seems they are different persons. More sources anyone?

Meanwhile,
Majjy, or else, are you preparing for this:

http://www.southeastasianarchaeology.com/2...uly-16-19-2008/

See also this:
http://www.southeastasianarchaeology.com/2...n-on-srivijaya/

Inscriptions:
There's a 4th century stone, still standing, in the grounds of St. Annes'c Church in Cheruk Tok Kun, Penang Island, in ancient Palli script, which says: "I acknowledge the enemies of the contented king Ramaunibha and the wicked are ever afflicted." Ramaunibha was an ancient Kedahan king.

There is also the Buddhagupta inscription found in nearby Seberang Perai, which is on the mainland side of Penang. Dated to the 5th century, the inscription was made by a ship captain named Buddhagupta in thanksgiving to Buddha for a successful voyage. Buddhagupta hails from a land called Raktamrttika, identified as Rajbadidanga in the Bay of Bengal.
http://www.southeastasianarchaeology.com/2007/10/26/bujang-valley-archaeological-museum/

Dude. Langkasuka n Gangga Nagara were Sanskrit-derived names. Need I tell ya that the Greeks were not such strangers to Sanskrit either. Cos both Greek n Sanskrit were related languages in the Indo-European family.

I knew it. I knew it. You Indos just can't deal with it when we have evidence of our older culture in Semenanjung. It just makes your own deluded notion of Jawa-based Indo cultural superiority collapse like a sand castle.

Well, if our Malayu Sumatran co-heirs of Srivijaya, one day, eventually, want all of us Malayu peoples, on both sides of Selat Malayu, to coalesce again into a new 21st century Malayu Srivijaya ... then there ain't much you or I can do to stop it. Is there?

It'd be better than staying in artificial Indonesia.

Bhinneka Tunggal Ika? Reminds me of an old Jawa song. They used to sing it all the while during Majapahitan times, didn't they? To put a pleasant-looking Nusantaran veil on a Jawa face.

Sure, we'll always continue to discuss Srivijaya. Indulge our nostalgia on Srivijaya. The splendid, glorious, Malayu-speaking, Malayu-cultured kingdom of Srivijaya.

I'm agree with you. Keeping arguing with him really insults my intelligence...
Okay I'll start ignoring him, not because he win in argument, but simply because I can't understand his random weird way of thinking...
megalomaniac schizophrenia...?
He's just a sad silly malay ultranationalist and stupid as log.

This kid is totally stupid troller.... first he can not differentiate and understand the concept of Austroasiatic branch of language with Austronesian one. He think Austroasiatic is the same as Austronesian.... only Austroasian sailing to island and then become Austronesian...



Now he think Bhineka Tunggal Ika was a Majapahit song LOL...



What a clueless poor soul...
Aduh...., luarbiasa guobloknyaaa.....
Belajar lah nak, semakin banyak kau tulis pernyataan-pernyataan tak berdasar, semakin terlihat bodoh....
Sudah bodoh, banyak bicara pula....




Wow... International Converence on Srivijaya Civilization..... awesome....
I hope Malaysia send their best historian to discuss Srivijaya in Palembang with us, not a clueless, stupid kid like the one trolling here....

Bhinneka Tunggal Ika, Bhinneka Tunggal Ika, Bhinneka Tunggal Ika ...

The song sung by Majapahitan soldiers, Majapahitan elite, n the AdhiRaja/MahaRaja/DevaRaja of AdhiNagara/Negara Agung. It fooled the Nusantaran peasants across the outer islands ... into accepting Javanese hegemony ... without really realising that it was really Javanese hegemony.

That's what we mean figuratively by "veil".

They're still singin the same "song" today. Now dude, you go figure what I meant figuratively by "song."

In that case, you guys will have to acknowlege that Dapunta Hyang Sri Jayanasa's ancestors were descendants of King Vijayabahu of Lanka Dwipa who settled in Semenanjung after having being sent into exile there. Before they migrated onward to Sumatra.

Speaking of best historians, you might meet me there.

error

This kid still loading us and polluting this threads with baseless rubbish....

Oh well.... poor soul...

Ha ha ha. Just couldn't face the truth. Could ya?

Bhinneka Tunggal Ika = Unity in Javasity

Now since you're crazy about inscros, courtesy of our friend SonOfGunongJerai, here's some to keep ya happy:


Vickaneshwaran - The Auspicious Half Elephant God, the destructor of the obstacles, the son of Shiva and Uma Devi.


Tanjore Inscription of Brihadishvar Temple, mentioning Kedah as a valiant kingdom in fighting enemies.


Cheruk Tok Kun Inscription in Sanskrit written in Pallava script, discovered in Bukit Mertajam, Pulau Pinang.


Cheruk Tok Kun Inscription around 5th C, mentioning about Bhagadatta.


Buddhagupta Siddhayatra prayers in Lembah Bujang Muzeum.

Kid. When I WAS in 6th grade, you were still cryin for mama n wettin yer pants in kindergarten.

Dharmakirti, or Dhammakitti, full name/title Dhammakitti Thera Mahanama, was a Senior Monk of Nagara Sri Dharmaraja (Ligor) (1272-1284) who was a co-author of the epic Mahavamsa.

Besides Dhammakitti, Mahavamsa was also improvised by several other Singhala Theravada monks. It is believed that there were 4 Thera Mahanama throughout the ancient centuries.

Ligor (Nagara Sri Dharmaraja) was actually the centre of Theravada in ancient times. They received Theravada teachings directly from a batch of Theravada monks led by 2 Thera (senior monks) named Sona n Uttara, sent by king Asoka (269 - 237 BC) from Magadha. As opposed to Palembang Srivijaya, which was the hub of Mahayana-Tantra.

Kid.

The truth...? gave me some reliable source rather than feeding us with loads of unreferenced "rumors" and "made up" history....
Oh yeah incase you fail to understand: we're not interested in langkasuka or kedah.

Oh well... I think I can figure you out..., you are the by product of a failing nation. An artificial country painted in happy face of economic achievements, content under the shadow of towering twin towers, borrowed (should I say "stealed") cultural identity from its neighbours, but beneath it lurked the seeds of social unrest and racial problems, also marked with political injustice and polarization of society. Where people failed to unite and boxed according to their race, religion, and origin.
From a country with no glorious past, no glorious ancient monuments (soo they must create a modern day towering monument to compensate for this absence, which I think is admirable effort tough), and without heroic heritage of struggle for independence. As the result of this accute inferiority-complex turns to megalomaniac delusions, tried soo hard to finds their roots and source of pride to justify their existence and went as far as fabricated their own version of history....
Now they try to hitch-hike the glory of Srivijaya empire, and maybe try to hijack its history and used it as means of "pride boost" in their interest.


Sorry OOT.... Why we should talk about our jiran here...?
Can we mail them back to their own threads....?



Back to Srivijaya:
I've been to National Museum of Jakarta, there was a room, a Thailand room that also display the replica of Srivijayan art from Chaiya in southern Thailand. The Srivijayan buddhist art is graceful with beautiful relaxed torso of Avalokitesvara.

Preparing to cover the conference, majjy ?

Is this in the new building, Maja? Btw I found it very strange that in the new building they don't have an escalator from the 4th floor to the 5th and instead you have to take the elevator to go there.

Nope...., I would love to come to Palembang, but I think the regional reporter would report it for the media I work for.



Its in the old building...
Actually they have escalator, for saving the energy they turn it off and only elevator was functioning.

We never claim our Malay sisters and brothers as anything other than Malays either, and Srivijaya was obviously a Malay empire. We only have a problem of you trying to call the brown skinned people of our islands as part of Malay race, because there's no such thing.

About reverting to our own language, as if you Malaysians never do that. FYI, I don't speak Javanese, why would I? I'm not even a Javanese myself.

Because you know you can't. Why, even inside your own you still insist on wearing crutch, don't you?

Thank you for the invitation. I've seen the thread and decided not to insult my intelligence.

Yeah right. Most of Malaysians' insistence on convincing us being part of "Malay race" convinced me otherwise.

Already many have left and deported back, many others left and still in limbo, some others left and return with irreparable scars on their lives. The ones who are scared are clearly not us Indonesians

Geeeeeeee. Is that allllllll? Guess we ain't doin that badly for a failing nation then.

Kid. Shedding blood for independence is cool. Gwe respek loe orang. But if you can get it without shedding blood, that's cool too, don't ya think? Brains first, dude. If that fails, then only ya use brawn.

If you can find a way to fight for it in the boardroom, why fight for it on the battlefield? By jaw-jaw rather than war-war. Like, why waste precious lives.

Speakin of heroic struggle, I think our Kedahan ancestors gave Cholamandalam a much better fight than your Palembangian Srivijayans in 1025 n 1068. The Tamils records still have it in their ancient archives. Whereas you guys just took their attacks basically lying down then, didn't ya? You even collaborated with them in attacking us in Kedah in 1068.

It's all your ancestors' fault that we're hitch-hiking on ya now. If they hadn't invaded n bullied our ancestors, we wouldn't have had any interest on hitch-hiking on ya now. We'd be happy enough riding our own ride.

But since they had, we must have our revenge. We'll be looking to counter-invade n take ya guys over as soon as we have a good chance.

As payback for the past misdeeds of your ancestors on ours.

@Bhasky&Joko:

As for other Semenanjung Malays still claiming non-Malay Indos, i.e Jawa, Sunda, Madura, Batak, Dayak etc. etc. as part of Malay race, maybe you could try explaining the matter gently to them. Some of them could be overzealous young kids trying hard to flex their still-growing intellectual muscles.

Now that now reminds me of Kelapa. He he he.

Maybe ya could refer them to me.

Joko, you take real good care of that v fragile intelligence of yours, k.

Dreamhunter! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

That must be vintage Dreamhunter again.

Unity in Javasity? Good Gosh!!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.