Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Ancient Mon-Khmer people
Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Asian Culture > Cambodian / Khmer Chat
Pages: 1, 2, 3
applepannic
QUOTE(Manleow @ Jul 13 2008, 02:30 PM) [snapback]3807565[/snapback]
Lanna culture and Lao culture are most simular to one another, central Thai and Thais are closet to the Khmers interms of culture and style.

u might want to learn more about the Lao culture before u suggest otherwise.

The Lao script was created before the sukhothai script, that Lao script was founded in NOthern Laos, so where did the khmers fit in, being that they in the south.

but sure, Modern Lao script is influence by Sanskrit or indianized script, just as the khmer script is. its like passing the tourch, khmers are just in the middleman but they are not the begining, the indianized script is the root of both our script. so i give more credit to them then to khmers. because without them, khmer would not have a script also.

The Lao script before it was today, was mostly likely like that of the chinese script, without khmer script it would just be more like the chiense script of ancient times. who would the Kingdom of Nanchao ever would of communicated with their chinese counterparts


Actually, no Lanna culture is much closer to Burma than it is to Laos. The Khmer script predated Lao by centuries and is basically the blueprint for Lao. There is no Chinese script used for Lao, the only Daic language to be written in a sinocized script is Zhuang.
AEROFORCE1
QUOTE(AwangPembela @ Jul 14 2008, 12:19 PM) [snapback]3808692[/snapback]
I'm trying get some info on Suryavarman I (also called Virauraja). I believe he's a prince of Ligor (Nagara Sri Dharmaraja) who ascended the Angkorian throne around 1007 AD.

But there seems to be conflicting info about his backgorund. Some sources say that he's a son of king Sujitaraja (also called Jayaindravarman n Sri Kshetra Indraditya) of Ligor (Nagara Sri Dharmaraja) by a Khmer princess. He's also a nephew of Udayadityavarman (Sujita's brother). The 3 were said to have collaborated in invading n conquering Lavo, then the military HQ of Angkor empire, in 1002 AD, thereby effectively gaining the Angkorian throne. While Suryavarman I first became king of Ligor to replace his father in 1002.

Suryavarman I then proceeded to ascend the Angkorian throne in 1007, on the death of his father Sujita.

While another source says that Jayaindravarman was a rival of Suryavarman I before he (Suryavarman I) finally ascended the Angkorian throne.

Anyone has another story?

Actually that Ligor (Nagara Sri Dharmaraja) is Nakornsri Thammaraj the province in the southern part of Thailand. There suppose to be apart of Srivijaya empire.
applepannic
QUOTE(AwangPembela @ Jul 14 2008, 12:19 AM) [snapback]3808692[/snapback]
I'm trying get some info on Suryavarman I (also called Virauraja). I believe he's a prince of Ligor (Nagara Sri Dharmaraja) who ascended the Angkorian throne around 1007 AD.

But there seems to be conflicting info about his backgorund. Some sources say that he's a son of king Sujitaraja (also called Jayaindravarman n Sri Kshetra Indraditya) of Ligor (Nagara Sri Dharmaraja) by a Khmer princess. He's also a nephew of Udayadityavarman (Sujita's brother). The 3 were said to have collaborated in invading n conquering Lavo, then the military HQ of Angkor empire, in 1002 AD, thereby effectively gaining the Angkorian throne. While Suryavarman I first became king of Ligor to replace his father in 1002.

Suryavarman I then proceeded to ascend the Angkorian throne in 1007, on the death of his father Sujita.

While another source says that Jayaindravarman was a rival of Suryavarman I before he (Suryavarman I) finally ascended the Angkorian throne.

Anyone has another story?


Early scholars have argued that he wasn't of Cambodian heritage, but the most recent scholarly work reveals him to have certain links with the elite of northeast Cambodia. I never heard anything about him coming from Ligor, and I highly doubt this. During his reign, mentions of people from foreign nations are clearly marked, by the distinction of the the word outsiders, and it was Suryavarman's reign that encouraged local and international trade.
AwangPembela
Yes, Ligor (Nagara Sri Dharmaraja) (Nakhon Si Thammarat) was actually a Malay Buddhist kingdom at the edge of the Angkor empire at that time. 11th century was like the first beginnings of Srivijayan decline due to attacks by Chola Tamils.

The old Malay kingdoms of Ligor, Kedah, Langkasuka etc. were previously under Khmer hegemony, before they passed into Srivijayan dominance around 700 AD. When Srivijaya started weakening in 11th century, they sort of gradually gravitated back to the Angkorian fold again, with Ligor likely breaking out first.

Suryavarman I had a Khmer royal mother, from the line of Indravarman. His father Sujita was a Malay prince/king of Ligor with some Srivijayan ancestry. Sujita was also himself the "senapati" (army general) of the Angkorian Empire, which explains why he had a large army at his diposition to overrun Lavo and thereby gain the Angkorian throne.

* * *

Actually I extracted that story from an article by someone with a Khmer-sounding name, a certain Mr. Lem Chuck Moth, which was last edited on 1 July 2008.

Here's a bit more of it:

The Sri Vijaya attack on the Angkorian Empire
At the same time, the Mon tradition recalled the conflict between Lavo and Haripunjaya. The story is reported in various Pali chronicles composed in Chiangmai. The Chamadevivamsa, written at the beginning of the fifteenth century, and the Jinakalamali, finished in 1516, contain the following account:

"A king of Haripunjaya named Atrasataka went to attack Lavo where Ucchittachakravatti reigned. At the moment when the two sovereigns prepared for battle, a king of Sri-dhammanagara named Sujita arrived at Lavo with a considerable army and fleet. Confronted by this surprise attack, the two adversaries fled in the direction of Haripunjaya. Ucchita arrived first, married the queen and proclaimed himself king. Sujita, the king of Ligor, established himself as master of Lavo. At the end of three years, his successor, or perhaps his son, Kambojaraja (Suryavarman I), went to attack Ucchita again at Haripunjaya, but was defeated."

The conflict between Lavo and Haripunjaya mirrors the feud between the Javanese and the Sri Vijaya that grew in a bigger scale to become the dynastic crisis of the Cakravartin establishment. Under the Javanese attack, the Srivijaya was obviously looking for an escape and in a twist of destiny, the Angkorian site became their target. Scholars mistook this attack as a conquest of the mighty Angkorian Empire over its weaker neighboring states, Lavo and Haripunjaya.

On the contrary, it was the Angkorian court that was under attack since the story clearly indicates that the conqueror was from Sri Dhammmaraja or Ligor. The ruler of Lavo Ucchittachakravatti was quoted as a Chakravati, a reference to the Angkorian Monarch of the time. He was either Jayavarman IV or a successor of him. As Lavo was the military command post of the Cakravartin Empire, the conquest of Lavo (by Sujita) resulted in the capture of the Angkorian throne.

The inscription of Ta Prom mentions the marriage of Suryavarman I to the princess Viralaksmi of Chrestapura. Descended from Yasovarman of the pre-Angkorian line, princess Viralaksmi was clearly a ticket of legitimacy to the Angkorian throne. According to the Khmer chronicle, she was the queen of the last Angkorian monarch, presumably Jayavarman V or his immediate successor whose reign was cut short by the crisis.

* * *
applepannic
I've never heard of him coming from Ligor, and no historical records mentioned where he originated. This is why his actual origin is debated, but according to research by Michael Vickery, this is an almost certainty that he did come from the north. If you want more information, consullt "The reign of Suryavarman I and the Dynamics of Angkorean Development."
AwangPembela
K, thanx.

Anyway, if you wanna read up on that version further, look up: http://home.att.net/~khmerheritage/

n click on the part titled: "The Sri Vijaya Connection".
applepannic
Its fascinating how the people and nations of Southeast Asia entwined.
ThreddOfDredd
QUOTE(AwangPembela @ Jul 14 2008, 11:18 PM) [snapback]3809103[/snapback]
K, thanx.

Anyway, if you wanna read up on that version further, look up: http://home.att.net/~khmerheritage/

n click on the part titled: "The Sri Vijaya Connection".

I went through that site you recommended. Lem Chuck Moth has certainly advanced some interesting theories. Frankly, I don't see why we can't place him on the same level of credibility as a western researcher.

If it was a Malay author quoting from Malay chronicles, we'd have some reason to suspect a Malay bias. But since Mr. Lem sounds like a Khmer n he was quoting from Mon chronicles, I think that factor has been largely discounted.

I've observed also that about a quarter of the sites yielded from my quick search on Suryavarman I have indicated a Ligorian Malay origin for him. Still they say he'd got a Khmer mother so he was only half-Malay really, if those theories were true.

Another interesting proposal made by Mr. Lem was that Sri Viraujaya (Jayaviravarman, also Sujita, the Chinese could have call him Shi li Wu yeh or Hsia Chih) in fact became king of Srivijaya in 962, succceeding a certain Sri Udayaviravarman. Incredibly, the Khmer royal chronology also recorded that Jayaviravarman (1002 - 1010) succeeded Udayaviravarman (1001 - 1002) as king of Angkor.

What that essentially suggests is that both Udayaviravarman n Jayaviravarman first ascended the Srivijayan throne, then stepped down in their old age to become kings of Ligor, their original Malay homeland in the peninsula. They then stepped up again to take the Angkorian throne for rather short periods, which they passed over to their descendant Suryavarman I when he was ready to take it.

Incredible assertions. But interesting nevertheless. biggthumpup.gif

Read above-mentioned site, n click on "The Chola Consortium". Extract given below:

* * *
The conflict between Java and Sri Vijaya
In the history of Java, about 970, a princess pregnant with Udayana (see note on Javanese princess), during the trouble times of a war of succession after his death, took refuge on Javanese soil (History of Indonesia: early and Medieval, B.R. Chatterji). The princess, perhaps a consort of the Sri Vijaya king Sri Udayadityavarman, managed to escape to Java during the crisis. The History of the Sung tells us about a succession of Sri Vijaya throne from the king Si-li Hu-ta-hsia-li-tan in 960 to the king Shih-li Wu-yeh in 962. It indicated a transition from the king Si-li Hu-ta-hsia-li-tan, a Chinese transcription of Sri Udayadityavarman, whose reign ended sometime after 960 to the new king Shih-li Wu-yeh whose reign begun before 962. The Shih-li Wu-yeh in the Chinese text was a transcription of Sri Viraujaya. Mon tradition, in Jinakalamali chronicles, had attributed this period to the reign of the Malay king Sochita of Malay Peninsular under the name of Sri Viraujaya (Jayaviravarman in Khmer inscription). The accounts of embassies to China in 971,972,974, and 975 do not give king's name; embassies of 980 and 983 are said to come from a king Hsia-chih (Sochita?).
* * *
applepannic
I sometimes get highly confused with the names of the royals. It is sometimes all the same.
AwangPembela
Ha ha ha. I know wot ya mean. There's all those 'varmans', 'varmadevas', 'adityas' first of all.

N then when the Chinese gets hold of them, they then become a totally different kettle of fish altogether.

Like, 'Srivijaya' becomes 'Shi li fo che', 'Sanjaya' becomes 'San fo che', 'Langkasuka' becomes 'Lang ya shiu', 'Sri Udayaditya' becomes 'Shi li hu ta ya li tan', 'Jayavarman' becomes 'Cho yo po mo' etc. etc. etc. laugh.gif
xeemlauj
QUOTE(thebest @ Jul 8 2008, 10:48 AM) [snapback]3799061[/snapback]
The Pnong are an aboriginal Cambodian minority ethnic group, found primarily in Mondulkiri province of Cambodia, and speaking a Mon-Khmer language.

MORE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnong

Here how Pnong sound n their music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cn1fVJdaKU



Thank for sharing.
There are some Phnong living in America.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2013 Invision Power Services, Inc.