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rudeboy
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Aug 28 2004, 04:44 PM)
That's hilarious, considering it was the Indians who built the pagodas and similar architectures first.  And the Chinese also brags about building the first compass. Uh..no..it was one of the ancient European countries.  Next, I'm sure they'll claim walls are their inventions too.
Yes, but your architecture is based on Indian architecture. I don't understand why Chinese try to claim everything as theirs. If they truly believe it's theirs, then those people should have actually tried to do some research before making ignorant statements. 

This type of pagoda is found in China and all over SE Asia, and perhaps from Mongolia to Japan. How does it become the foundation of Chinese architecture? icon_rolleyes.gif

And the claim that the compass was invented in Europe thousands of years before the Chinese is ridiculous...At the time the Chinese were using it, most of Europe weren't that far off from living in caves...Are you talking about Atlantis? Give it rest. It's lame. You just make your kind look stupid.


I'm not downing Burmese architecture and I've seen better in Burma, but this is pretty ugly. It catches someone's eye for a first look but by the second look is already going down hill. Thai is better but it is too glittery. It's aesthetic value also decreases by each look. I'm not too impressed by Viet or Chinese buildings either. There has been no artistic architectural exploration in China for a long while. The commonalities between all four architectural traditions is undeniable, and must've come from either prehistoric connections or later cultural contact.

Of the architectural traditions in the world, I find Japanese and Islamic architecture to be most interesting. There is a serene, elegant, regal dignity to Japanese buildings that is a feast for the eyes. Maybe I'll make a thread about it in the Japan section.
tqt
the compass was invented by the chinese since it is well documented by the chinese.
Byron
I saw the first compass the Chinese had. Wasn't it some spoon in a bowl that would spin around or something?
Nam Quoc Son Ha
Well documented doesn't it was invented by the Chinese. That's like saying the British documented Egyptian history well then they must have invented it.

But anyway, I do think the Chinese invented the compass since the Europeans were still climbing trees ( embarassedlaugh.gif ) back in those days.

Back to the topic of architecture, I find Korean and Japanese architectural style to be more tranquil, majestic and elegant.

Vietnamese style is also very unique and has deviated from Chinese style too a great extent. Have you noticed that Vietnamese tend to use stones while Chinese tend to use wood?
tqt
I find European-style buildings to be the most beautiful. The city of Prague in the Czech Republic still retain a lot of exotic buildings from the Middle Ages. I wish the architecture of Vietnam would have been influenced by the European instead.
Byron
I prefer German castles in Bavaria like neuschwanstein which was built by King Ludwig II aka "The Fairy Tale King".









A look of the inside with the walls painted that tell a fairy tale.



rudeboy
QUOTE (tqt @ Aug 29 2004, 09:55 PM)
I find European-style buildings to be the most beautiful.  The city of Prague in the Czech Republic still retain a lot of exotic buildings from the Middle Ages.  I wish the architecture of Vietnam would have been influenced by the European instead.

Too modern...There is a lack of tranquility and delicate elegance...Everything is very loud...a different take on things all together...
Do you really want to be more culturally colonized by Whites?
blank book
QUOTE
I wish the architecture of Vietnam would have been influenced by the European instead.


Thats quite an unrealistic desire to change history like that. However, to a certain extent, many Asian countries are being heavily influenced by western style architecture. The skyscrapers and abstract buildings that are present in large cities are not exactly of Asian origins.
rudeboy
QUOTE (blank book @ Aug 29 2004, 10:03 PM)
QUOTE
I wish the architecture of Vietnam would have been influenced by the European instead.


Thats quite an unrealistic desire to change history like that. However, to a certain extent, many Asian countries are being heavily influenced by western style architecture. The skyscrapers and abstract buildings that are present in large cities are not exactly of Asian origins.

Intrusive and ugly...
Nam Quoc Son Ha
On a global context, I would have to rank the following architectural styles from top to bottom:

Japanese (elegant and gives you a sense of calm and tranquility)
Korean (solid and elegant)
Thai (elegant and flashy)
Greek-Roman (just classic and majestic)
Islamic (a wonderful fusion of religion and architecture)
Chinese (superior, yet hardly changed for a thousand years)
Babylonian (one of the best style of ancient architecture)
Russian (St Basil is a fine example)
Maya (astrology based architecture)
tongbao_vince
QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Aug 29 2004, 10:17 PM)
On a global context, I would have to rank the following architectural styles from top to bottom:

Japanese (elegant and gives you a sense of calm and tranquility)
Korean (solid and elegant)
Thai (elegant and flashy)
Greek-Roman (just classic and majestic)
Islamic (a wonderful fusion of religion and architecture)
Chinese (superior, yet hardly changed for a thousand years)
Babylonian (one of the best style of ancient architecture)
Russian (St Basil is a fine example)
Maya (astrology based architecture)

Thing about Chinese architecture is that it is too diverse. MOst people associate Chinese architecture with Beijing's style (Forbidden City, 13 Ming Tombs, SUmmer Palace, Temple of Heaven, etc). However, each province has very distinct architecture. IMO the buildings in Guangdong are even better than Beijing because of their massive emphasis on the most minor detail. They even have buildings made entirely of nothing but bamboo, tree bark and string that Japanese buildings resemble.

Anyways interesting ranking but for me it's:

Chinese
Italian Renaissance
Islamic
Thai
Other East Asian regions
West European countries
Greek-Roman
Spainish
Egyptian
India
Central/South America
Africa
rudeboy
My favorite used to be Islamic...But now Japanese...Babylonian???
Thai I think is overrated...Too flashy...It appears very nice the first time you see it but its aesthetic value rapidly declines with each additional viewing...
Greek is always classical...represents the Western conception of architecture...open, majestic, and standing against nature whereas Chinese-derived architecture has always tried to melt into nature...same with painting
Greek is derived from Egyptian...
Russian? No way...Too modern and is a shoddy style of Islamic, Greek, and West European...
Chinese...has a great potential to develope in a rebirth...
Tongbao, everything is Chinese #1 with you nationalists icon_rolleyes.gif have some objectivtiy
Where're not talking about Japanese residential houses by the way...
Japanese architecture is very refined, as you can see below.




yajthaugluv
Just curious is teinanment square or forbidden city older than hue or hue older?
Nam Quoc Son Ha
I'm fascinated with the wood decoration under the roof painted in blue or red of Beijing style architecture, it's just so intricate and detailed. Do you know what I'm talking about?

The best IMO would be Japanese house with Zen garden.
fujisan_8
well the indians, chinese and vietnamese or whoever can claim whatever they want. what matters in this world is what the general population recognises. straight away when they think X it was designed from Y.

if india and china both were that great, well both r stuck in a $hithole now.
tam_ca
japan buildings are awesome, its like.... woowww...
Clean
I like the Japanese gardens as well, the buildings seem so tranquil.

Half of Vietnam's buildings are broken, Vietnam isn't doing a great job of restoring/maintaining them. I think they're trying though, but definitely need more effort.
tam_ca
QUOTE (Clean @ Aug 29 2004, 11:37 PM)
I like the Japanese gardens as well, the buildings seem so tranquil.

Half of Vietnam's buildings are broken, Vietnam isn't doing a great job of restoring/maintaining them. I think they're trying though, but definitely need more effort.

yea, hope vietnam restores all of it... so we wont be just a ruins only country.. thats like all we have,, ruins of old cool palaces and buildings.
fujisan_8
ahhh nothing like a big slab of concrete *just what all the world is tryin to do*...I'd keep my californian bungalow thanx...
ChuonCheat_Khmer
thai architecture is khmer architecture. after the sack of angkor in 1431, the siamese carried away khmer brahmins,court dancers,artisans and royal family members. it was written in the khmer chronicles. the thais would of course tell you that the modern khmer architecture like the royal palace is thai influence. it is true but the architecture is really khmer which was reintroduced to us.
DaiNamViet
QUOTE (ChuonCheat_Khmer @ Aug 30 2004, 12:57 AM)
thai architecture is khmer architecture. after the sack of angkor in 1431, the siamese carried away khmer brahmins,court dancers,artisans and royal family members. it was written in the khmer chronicles. the thais would of course tell you that the modern khmer architecture like the royal palace is thai influence. it is true but the architecture is really khmer which was reintroduced to us.

Aknowledged, Do you feel better now ?? beerchug.gif
Clean
QUOTE (ChuonCheat_Khmer @ Aug 29 2004, 10:57 PM)
thai architecture is khmer architecture. after the sack of angkor in 1431, the siamese carried away khmer brahmins,court dancers,artisans and royal family members. it was written in the khmer chronicles. the thais would of course tell you that the modern khmer architecture like the royal palace is thai influence. it is true but the architecture is really khmer which was reintroduced to us.

Who cares who influenced who. It's just that the Thai variety of whoever first created it (i don't care who) is more interesting. Every nation has their own taste.
SunWeining
God this made my day.
Clean
sure.gif You're welcome...

Beijing was a nice accomplishment, no? embarassedlaugh.gif
福州市长
QUOTE (Byron @ Aug 29 2004, 10:01 PM)
I prefer German castles in Bavaria like neuschwanstein which was built by King Ludwig II aka "The Fairy Tale King".









A look of the inside with the walls painted that tell a fairy tale.




those builds are ugly
Clean
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Aug 30 2004, 06:28 AM)
QUOTE (Byron @ Aug 29 2004, 10:01 PM)
I prefer German castles in Bavaria like neuschwanstein which was built by King Ludwig II aka "The Fairy Tale King".









A look of the inside with the walls painted that tell a fairy tale.




those builds are ugly

embarassedlaugh.gif I think he only posted it because it's the model they used for the Disney castle
福州市长
hahha... what a chilidish dude
Kulong
Hahaha a viet designed the whole city of Beijing embarassedlaugh.gif
khuanam
Sure.. hard for a Chinaman to swallow huh?
Kulong
QUOTE (khuanam @ Aug 30 2004, 01:35 PM)
Sure.. hard for a Chinaman to swallow huh?

I've always found self-glorifying viet propagandas (lies) hard to swallow. embarassedlaugh.gif
Clean
QUOTE (Kulong @ Aug 30 2004, 01:30 PM)
Hahaha a viet designed the whole city of Beijing  embarassedlaugh.gif

Not all of it, probably just most of it embarassedlaugh.gif


From: The Cambridge History of China (Vol. VII).

Unless you're saying British professors like to fabricate history, i'd say some Eunich by the name of Nguyen An (Ruan An) was the chief architect. No one said he designed all of Beijing, he probably just laid out the plans, like "a fountain will be here" or something like that.
Johannjs
QUOTE (Kulong @ Aug 30 2004, 09:30 PM)
Hahaha a viet designed the whole city of Beijing embarassedlaugh.gif

You should read the whole thread from beginning. Click on the links also, in case there are self-explanatory images and plans.

Anyway, if something is beautiful, whoever did it is beautiful.

Or if you are so touchy, why not destroy it???
福州市长
QUOTE (Clean @ Aug 30 2004, 03:19 PM)
QUOTE (Kulong @ Aug 30 2004, 01:30 PM)
Hahaha a viet designed the whole city of Beijing  embarassedlaugh.gif

Not all of it, probably just most of it embarassedlaugh.gif


From: The Cambridge History of China (Vol. VII).

Unless you're saying British professors like to fabricate history, i'd say some Eunich by the name of Nguyen An (Ruan An) was the chief architect. No one said he designed all of Beijing, he probably just laid out the plans, like "a fountain will be here" or something like that.

it say major roles, not whole roles....
he helps china because he want to be a chinese rather than be a weak vietnamese(i'm talking about 1000 years ago, and i know vietnamese are so strong these days embarassedlaugh.gif ).
Clean
biggrin.gif
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Aug 30 2004, 03:25 PM)
QUOTE (Clean @ Aug 30 2004, 03:19 PM)
QUOTE (Kulong @ Aug 30 2004, 01:30 PM)
Hahaha a viet designed the whole city of Beijing  embarassedlaugh.gif

Not all of it, probably just most of it embarassedlaugh.gif


From: The Cambridge History of China (Vol. VII).

Unless you're saying British professors like to fabricate history, i'd say some Eunich by the name of Nguyen An (Ruan An) was the chief architect. No one said he designed all of Beijing, he probably just laid out the plans, like "a fountain will be here" or something like that.

it say major roles, not whole roles....

Major is pretty major embarassedlaugh.gif

I don't care about him though, like i said before, i would respect him more if he built Hanoi, or Hue or some other Viet city. I could care less about Beijing.

Edit:

Thousand years ago no Viet wanted to be Chinese, that's why we broke apart from you embarassedlaugh.gif And during Nguyen An's time, if we still wanted to be part of China, then we wouldn't have thrown the Ming out either. No Viet wants to be Chinese... embarassedlaugh.gif beerchug.gif
Johannjs
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Aug 30 2004, 11:25 PM)
QUOTE (Clean @ Aug 30 2004, 03:19 PM)
QUOTE (Kulong @ Aug 30 2004, 01:30 PM)
Hahaha a viet designed the whole city of Beijing  embarassedlaugh.gif

Not all of it, probably just most of it embarassedlaugh.gif


From: The Cambridge History of China (Vol. VII).

Unless you're saying British professors like to fabricate history, i'd say some Eunich by the name of Nguyen An (Ruan An) was the chief architect. No one said he designed all of Beijing, he probably just laid out the plans, like "a fountain will be here" or something like that.

it say major roles, not whole roles....
he helps china because he want to be a chinese rather than be a weak vietnamese(i'm talking about 1000 years ago, and i know vietnamese are so strong these days embarassedlaugh.gif ).

Hey! what means "Chief Architect"?

what means "also"?

Note also that the building of Beijing was finished in 1420, and Nguyen An stayed there until 1453 apparently.
Byron
Wasn't Vietnam occupied by China during that time? So he was probably "forced" to design it.
福州市长
QUOTE (Johannjs @ Aug 30 2004, 04:34 PM)
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Aug 30 2004, 11:25 PM)
QUOTE (Clean @ Aug 30 2004, 03:19 PM)
QUOTE (Kulong @ Aug 30 2004, 01:30 PM)
Hahaha a viet designed the whole city of Beijing  embarassedlaugh.gif

Not all of it, probably just most of it embarassedlaugh.gif


From: The Cambridge History of China (Vol. VII).

Unless you're saying British professors like to fabricate history, i'd say some Eunich by the name of Nguyen An (Ruan An) was the chief architect. No one said he designed all of Beijing, he probably just laid out the plans, like "a fountain will be here" or something like that.

it say major roles, not whole roles....
he helps china because he want to be a chinese rather than be a weak vietnamese(i'm talking about 1000 years ago, and i know vietnamese are so strong these days embarassedlaugh.gif ).

Hey! what means "Chief Architect"?

what means "also"?

Note also that the building of Beijing was finished in 1420, and Nguyen An stayed there until 1453 apparently.

he must had luxury live in China..
Clean
QUOTE (Byron @ Aug 30 2004, 03:38 PM)
Wasn't Vietnam occupied by China during that time?  So he was probably "forced" to design it.

That's true. In the past during Chinese rule a lot of our best everything was send over as tribute just so they give us a break...

QUOTE
he must had luxury live in China..


He was a eunich, plus CHIEF ARCHITECT, that's a fricken great position. The Chief architect part, i wouldn't want to be a eunich. But he probably had a nice life there or something with such a nice position. Since he was the chief architect, i wouldn't doubt he built himself a nice house somewhere embarassedlaugh.gif
Johannjs
The historical context

QUOTE ( [url="http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:S4qGXtBNE9kJ:63.217.255.92/e_pages/vietnam/introduction/history/eih_leso.htm+Nguyen.An+architecture+Beijing+OR+Pekin&hl=en")
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:S4qGX...043;Pekin&hl=en[/url] ]THE LE DYNASTY

Le Thai To (1428-1433)
Le Thai Tong (1434-1442)
Le Nhan Tong (1443-1459)
Le Thanh Tong (1460-1497)
Le Hien Tong (1497-1504)
Le Tuc Tong (1504)
Le Uy Muc (1505-1509)
Le Tuong Duc (1510-1516)
Le Chieu Tong (1516-1522)
Le Cung Hoang (1522-1527)


Towards the end of' the 14th century, a great crisis shook the country. The Ming court, then reigning in China, took advantage of this to invade Dai Viet and to impose a form of direct rule which was to last for twenty years (1407-27). However, the invaders encountered stiff resistance from the beginning, and national independence was eventually wrested back in 1427 by Le Loi, the f'ounder of the Le dynasty.

The Ming Occupation

As early as JuIy 1407, the Ming emperor had incorporated Dai Viet into the Chinese empire under the title of' Glao Chi province, set up a central administration, and divided the country into phu and chau, trying to reach down to village level by 1419. The high-ranking officials were all Chinese; only subaltern posts were given to "natives". A general census revealed that there were 3,129,500 inhabitants and 2,087,500 man (barbarians) from mountain-dwelling tribes, i.e. a total of' more than 5.2 million. But many doubtless evaded the census. "Order" was maintained throughout the country by large military garrisons, joined by a tight network of relays. All opposition was harshly suppressed.

There was a very heavy system of taxation, which included land tax on rice fields and mulberry fields, and a poll-tax. The occupiers held a monopoly over the salt trade. All able-bodied people, aged 16 to 60, were subject to military service and multiple corvee: road-building, mining, pearl-oyster fishing, hunting, etc. In 1419, family records were made obligatory for control over the population.

Thousands of' skilled craftsmen and intellectuals were taken to China, among them Nguyen An, who was to become the architect of the Imperial City in Beijing. The Ming also confiscated personal property, animals (elephants, buffaloes and horses) and other valuables.

The people were forced to adopt the Chinese style of dress and Chinese ways and customs. Ming troops sought to destroy all traces of the nation's culture, they burned oconfiscated books that were specifically Vietnamese. This was a true cultural disaster; almost all literary works from before the 15th century were destroyed.

The oppressive occupation soon triggered fierce resistance. As early as the end of' 1407,  many uprisings began to occur. A descendant of the Tran dynasty proclaimed himself king in 1407, taking the name Gian Dinh and setting up his headquarters in Nghe An province. In late 1408, his army marched on the capital, attracting enthusiastic crowds of supporters along the way . Glan Dinh defeated the Ming forces at Bo Co in Nam Dinh province, but the resistance was weakened by internal dissension due to the murder by Gian Dinh of his able lieutenants Dang Tat and Nguyen Canh Chan, whose sons and followers rallied around another Tran prince, Quy Khoang, in 1409. Starting from Ha Tinh, the movement then spread to other provinces.

Meanwhile, 47,000 reinforcements allowed the Ming general Truong Phu to launch an offensive and push the insurgents back to Nghe An. In 1410, hostilities between the Ming court and Mongols made it possible for Quy Khoang to reoccupy Thanh Hoa; however, in 1411, having defeated the Mongols, the Ming counter-attacked and in 1413 drove the insurgents back to the southern provinces. Early in 1411, the latter's leaders were captured. The Tran princes and aristocrats had proved themselves incapable of providing effective leadership for the resistance, which   finally achieved victory under the leadership of a commoner, Le Loi.

The Lam Son Insurrection and the War of Independence

Le Loi, a land-owner frorn Lam Son in Thanh Hoa province was born in 1385. Before launching the insurrection against the Ming, he gathered about 1000 followers around him. On February 7, 1418 in Lam Son, he proclaimed himself king under  the name Binh Dinh Vuong, and began gathering under his banner anyone who oppose Ming domination. Nguyen Trai, a famous scholar, became his closest adviser on strategy and politics. Working together, the two men  brought the insurrection to victory after long years of struggle.

At first Le Loi launched guerrilla operations in mountainous area of Thanh Hoa. Although he inflicted losses to the Ming, he often found himself in a critical, even desperate situation. However, his forces held out thanks to the courage of the men, the resolve of' the leaders, and the dedication of the officers. Other popular uprisings in various provinces helped loosen Ming pressure on Le Loi. In 1420, his troops were able to camp on the banks of the Ma River and threaten the capital of Thanh Hoa province. A Ming counter-attack, however, drove them back to the mountains in 1423. But the Ming troops were also worn out, and their command agreed to a truce proposed by Le Loi, who resolutely resisted all attempts to buy him off with promises of riches and honours. In 1424, the Ming again attacked, but the insurgents had time to strengthen their position.

On the advice of Nguyen Chich, Le Loi took his troops to Nghe An and turned it into a resistance base. The insurgents were enthusiastically welcomed by the local people. Fortified enemy positions fell one after another, and soon the whole province was in Le Loi's hands. Next came Thanh Hoa, then provinces south of Nghe An. By the end of 1425, the whole southern part of the country had been liberated, with the exception of the Nghe An and Tay Do (Thanh Hoa) citadels. A vast rear base had thus been created for the war of national liberation. In 1426, Le Loi was in a position to launch a counter-offensive.

The Ming sent  50,000 reinforcements from China under the command of Vuong Thong. Even before they arrived, Le Loi had started his offensive to seize back the Red River Delta. In September 1426, he dispatched three armies northward; one was to interceept Ming reinforcements coming from Yunnan, the second comming through Lang Son, and the last was to march on the capital. Everywhere the people rallied to his banner with enthusiasm, while panic-stricken Ming troops withdrew into their citadels and tried to hold out until the reinforcements arrived.

In November, Vuong Thong's troops joined the Ming troops who had shut themselves up behind the walls of the capital, bringing their strength to 100,000. They thought they were now in a position to counter-attack, but instead they suffered a crushing defeat at Tot Dong (west of the capital) and again had to withdraw into the citadel. The Vietnamese troops had gained control of the area. Le Loi left Thanh Hoa and concentrated his forces round the capital. Vuong Thong proposed a truce. In a letter to the Ming general, Nguyen Trai said that the Vietnamese command would agree to a truce if Vuong Thong were to withdraw his troops from the country, thus "sparing our people the ravages of war and the Chinese troops the sufferings of battle".

But for Vuong Thong the truce was just a strategy to gain time and obtain more reinforcements. While maintaining the siege and eliminating isolated outposts, the Vietnamese Command, on Nguyen Trai's recommendation, conducted a campaign of political persuasion directed at the Ming troops, driving home to them the inevitability of defeat, the strenght of the Vietnamese national movement and the vulnerability of the Ming empire. This seriously demoralized them.

In October 1427, Ming reinforcements came in two columns: one was 100,000 strong and led by Lieu Thang through the Lang Son pass; the other, 50,000 strong, was led by Moc Thanh via the Red River valley. The Vietnamese command decided to destroy the more important army. Lieu Thang's troops, overconfident about their strength, were ambushed and routed at the Chi Lang Pass. The commander was killed and several generals captured together with 30,000 men. The other Ming column was filled with panic on hearing of this disaster and fled in disorder pursued by Le Loi's troops.

After the destruction of these reinforcement, Vuong Thong who was besieged in the capital, was forced to sue for peace. His request was granted by Le Loi, who gave the Ming troops the necessary food supplies and means of transport to get home. It was December 29, 1427.

The war of independence led by Le Loi and Nguyen Trai had lasted ten years. Starting with few resources, the movement had expanded, gradually establishing powerful bases and forces, and eventually destroying huge enemy armies. The command had combined guerrilla warfare with mobile warfare and attacks on fortified position, political struggle with military action, and had shown kindness toward the enemy and avoided pointless massacres. Le Loi, from the land-owning class rather than the landed aristocracy, and Nguyen Trai, a Confucian scholar with an encyclopaedic knowledge, had succeeded in bringing about national unity and inspiring patriotism. As well, they had shown resolve and wisdom at critical and decisive moments. The war was both national and popular in nature and conducted with appropriate strategy and tactics. Never again would the Ming try to reconquer Dai Viet. The following period of peace between China and Dai Viet was to last for over three centuries.

The Great Era of the Earlier Le

The winning back of national independence and major changes in socio-economic structure, especially the disappearance of large aristocratic estates in favour of private land ownership which resulted in the emergence of a land-owning class, provided a strong base for the new regime set up by Le Loi. The country made further progress and the feudal monarchy reached its peak under King Le Thanh Tong (1460-97).

The Land System and Economic Developmennt

After achieving victory, Le Loi ordered the confiscation of all lands belonging to Ming functionaries, traitors and Tran princes and dignitaries who had died or left. State land was utilized in part by the administration itself and partly distributed to dignitaries and mandarins. In contrast to the Tran estate owners, the benefiting mandarins could only collect land rent, but not do as they pleased with the peasants themselves, who were subject to the direct authority of' the state. Administrative centralization was thus promoted and the status of the peasants improved.

Le Loi in 1429 and then Le Thanh Tong in 1477, regulated and improved the distribution of communal rice fields based on the following principles:

- All were entitled to distribution according to respective title and rank;
- Distribution was to take place every six years;
- Rent was paid to the state and was generally lower than that demanded by the landlords.

The distribution of communal lands had been a practice since far back in time, but it was the first time that the monarchical state had intervened so directly in communal affairs. Given that the area covered by such lands was significant, the regulations resulted in increased production.

The Le kings paid great attention to the development of agricultural production. Lands left fallow during war time were quickly brought into cultivation, while the state set up state farms on uncultivated land so as to, in the words of King Lc Tharill Tong, "concentrate our strength in agriculture and increase our potential". Individuals were also encouraged to cultivate virgin lands. New areas were thus cleared, both in the highlands and reclaimed coastal regions. Dykes were kept in good repair and in emergencies, students and soldiers were mobilized in ordcr to repair thern. Soldiers and palace staff were sent in turn to the fields to work. Harvests and cattle were given particular attention.

This policy greatly encouraged agricultural production, and no serious famines occurred during the 15th century.

Handicrafts were still a subsidiary activity. However, they were widely practiced, and many villages came to specialize in certain occupations such as silk weaving, wine making, pottery or porcelain making, lime burning, etc.. Leather processing was introduced from China. In towns, particularly in the capital Thang Long, craftsmen lived in certain quarters and were grouped in guilds with strict rules. Silver, tin, iron, lead, gold and copper mines were opened.

Royal workshops were run by a special royal department and produced items needed at court, not to be sold on the market. They also minted coins. The personnel comprised craftsmen forced into service and slaves. This did not favour the progress in handicrafts.

The development of trade was encouraged by the spread of regional markets. Le Loi abolished the paper currency issued by Ho Quy Ly, ordered the use of copper coins and had units of measurement (length, weight, volume, and area) and the sizes of certain goods (fabrics and paper) standardized. Foreign trade was strictly controlled by the state; transactions could be conducted only with government authorization and in specified places. Many foreign trading vessels were banned from entering port. This restriction on foreign trade remained one of the main characteristics of feudal monarchy.

Administrative, Military and Judicial Organization

With the disappearance of large estates, administrative centralization reached its peak. The court was reorganized with six ministries; the posts of prime minister and general were abolished, these functions being taken over by the king himself. Provincial and regional administration was handled by the mandarin bureaucracy. Functionaries were appointed to head villages in numbers which varied according to population. The establishment of new villages and the election of notables became subject to detailed regulations. In 1467, Le Thanh Tong ordered maps of all villages and one of the whole country, the first ever to be drawn up. The country was divided into regions (dao), provinces, districts, and villages.

The army, 250,000 strong towards the end of the war of liberation, was reduced to 100,000 and divided into five sections which took turns doing military service and agricultural work. The peasant-soldier system inaugurated under the Ly was thus maintained. Besides conscripts there were also reservists.

The mandarin bureaucracy enjoyed special privileges - land, houses and special attire - but were no longer entitled to own large estates with serfs and have their own armed forces as in the time of the Tran. Members of the royal family enjoyed even more privileges, but not to the extent of being allowed to participate in the nation's leadership or administer important provinces, as had occurred under the Tran.

The legislative apparatus was streamlined to serve the centralized administration and evolving society. In 1483, the Hong Due Code was promulgated, grouping the rules and regulations already in forte in a systematic way; this was the most complete code to be drawn up in traditional Vietnam and remained in force until the end of the 18th century. Completed under subsequent reigns, it comprised 721 articles and was divided into six books.

The Hong Due Code sought in particular to safeguard ownership of land by the state and landlords, and ensure the authority of the father, first wife, and eldest son. It also determined the rites of marriage and mourning. The "ten capital crimes" were severely punished, especially rebellion and neglect of filial duties. Feudal and Confucian in inspiration, the Hong Due Code was, however, progressive in several respects. The rights of the woman were protected; she could have her own property and share equally with men in inheritance. Where there was no male offspring, daughters could inherit the whole family fortune. A wife could repudiate her husband if he had abandoned her for a certain time. All these points were to be suppressed in its most reactionary form. The Hong Due Code was specific to the Vietnamese society of the time and showed no Chinese influence.

With the first Le kings, Le Thanh Tong in particular, the feudal monarchy in Vietnam reached its peak; for some more time, the monarchical regime and mandarin bureaucracy were to play a positive role in the history of Vietnam.

Ethnic Minority Policy

Vietnam comprises many ethnic groups; minority groups live in mountainous regions, while the majority group, the kinh, are plain-dwellers.

During the insurrection against the Ming, ethnic minorities living in the highlands allied themselves with the kinh to fight the occupiers. After liberation, the feudalists in the delta resumed their policy of exploitation and oppression vis-a-vis the minorities. The Le monarchy ruled over the highlands through tribal chieftains upon whom the monarchy bestowed mandarin titles. These chieftains collected taxes. Control over mountainous regions was tighter than under the Tran. The kinh mandarins ruling over the uplands also sought to exploit the ethnic minorities.

This policy provoked frequent revolts among the mountain dwelling minorities, which was for centuries one of the weak points of the feudal monarchy. The Thai of the northwest rose in revolt in Lai Chau in 1432, in Son La in 1439 and in Thuan Chau in 1440; the Tay of Lang Son, Cao Bang and Tuyen Quang also did so on many occasions. In the western part of Nghe An, the head of the Cam family succeeded in holding out from 1428 to 1437.

All these revolts were firmly suppressed by the Le troops. The secession advocated by the rebel chiefs also ran counter to historical trends of the deltas and highlands being complementary economically. But antagonism among ethnic groups was to disappear only with the advent of socialism.

Cultural Development in the 15th-17th Centuries

While the plastic arts and architecture made little progress compared with the Ly-Tran period, literature flourished. Buddhism was relegated to second place. Confucianism becoming the official ideology inspiring mandarin competitions and national literature.

Confucianism and the Scholar

Confucian works, as interpreted by Chu Hi (of the Sung period in China), made up a body of doctrine which had to be digested by candidates entering mandarin competitions. In 1484, the names of laureates at the central competitions were inscribed on stone stele erected at the Temple of Literature in Hanoi. The doctrine was carefully studied by the kings. Le Thanh Tong was an outstanding scholar and wrote moral texts intended for the people.                      
tongbao_vince
QUOTE (Clean @ Aug 30 2004, 04:39 PM)
QUOTE (Byron @ Aug 30 2004, 03:38 PM)
Wasn't Vietnam occupied by China during that time?  So he was probably "forced" to design it.

That's true. In the past during Chinese rule a lot of our best everything was send over as tribute just so they give us a break...

QUOTE
he must had luxury live in China..


He was a eunich, plus CHIEF ARCHITECT, that's a fricken great position. The Chief architect part, i wouldn't want to be a eunich. But he probably had a nice life there or something with such a nice position. Since he was the chief architect, i wouldn't doubt he built himself a nice house somewhere embarassedlaugh.gif

Not true. Most of the time when tribute countries sent tribute to China, the Chinese emperor would actually send a much grander gift back in return as a show of its power. This is a common knowledge because China did not depend on tributes - it was for show.

I think you guys also give too much credit to this Annam architect. It's no big suprise that China gave positions of power to people who had talent and to people they conquered (just look at Admiral Zheng He). I've never heard of this story that he 'designed' Beijing but say he did take part as the Cheif architect - don't credit him with the building of Beijing as it is today. City planning is ALOT different than designing Chinese architecture. Vietnamese didn't build the Forbidden City, Great Wall, Summer Palace, Temple of Heaven, etc. Beijing has probably gone through the most change as a city in the past 600 years. After the Ming the Manchus took over and the city grew and changed. Then came the Republic that saw introduction of modern buildings and finally the COmmunists that have really made the most impact on the design of Beijing (such as tearing down the city walls to expand the area of Beijing). Great to know that a Vietnamese had such skills that even the Chinese empire desired his work. But his involvement in the big picture of Beijing was very minor - this is in response to some ACVS comments.
Clean
I don't think anyone here was super Anti-Chinese Viet supremist. The first clashish type of thing was when SunWeining came in with his sarcastic remark, then Kulong came in. Honestly, i don't think anyone here said Nguyen An single-handedly designed from top to bottom what is today Beijing. If you read back, most Viets were just "eh, i didn't know" or posted evidence to back it up just in case someone sarcastic suddenly wants to pop up. But i don't think the majority of us, or anyone i've spotted so far, before SunWeining's appearance or even Kulongs said anything like "Beijing was single handedly designed by us Viets." The only thing that was implied is we played a major role of which can be felt even today in the great city we call Beijing.

Being Chief Architect is a huge position, and he had a major role in what evolved into what is today Beijing. I think what you were saying that his contribution during the Ming Dynasty was minor is actually a downsize. Because although comparitively Beijing today is collaborative work, it would not be what it is today even if ONE architect was removed, whether it be the chief, or the assistant, or the person in charge of the fountains. Every single architect, every single craftsman involved lead to what is today Beijing, there is no such thing as a minor contribution. Remove Nguyen An and Beijing's general design would be different, he didn't design it from top to bottom but he probably had a general plan of where things were placed of which is still somewhat in place today. But that applies to everyone involved, remove the craftsman involved in carving whatever and the aesthetic value decreases.
CJK
interesting...
aaronly
QUOTE (Clean @ Aug 30 2004, 09:43 PM)
I don't think anyone here was super Anti-Chinese Viet supremist. The first clashish type of thing was when SunWeining came in with his sarcastic remark, then Kulong came in. Honestly, i don't think anyone here said Nguyen An single-handedly designed from top to bottom what is today Beijing. If you read back, most Viets were just "eh, i didn't know" or posted evidence to back it up just in case someone sarcastic suddenly wants to pop up. But i don't think the majority of us, or anyone i've spotted so far, before SunWeining's appearance or even Kulongs said anything like "Beijing was single handedly designed by us Viets." The only thing that was implied is we played a major role of which can be felt even today in the great city we call Beijing.

Being Chief Architect is a huge position, and he had a major role in what evolved into what is today Beijing. I think what you were saying that his contribution during the Ming Dynasty was minor is actually a downsize. Because although comparitively Beijing today is collaborative work, it would not be what it is today even if ONE architect was removed, whether it be the chief, or the assistant, or the person in charge of the fountains. Every single architect, every single craftsman involved lead to what is today Beijing, there is no such thing as a minor contribution. Remove Nguyen An and Beijing's general design would be different, he didn't design it from top to bottom but he probably had a general plan of where things were placed of which is still somewhat in place today. But that applies to everyone involved, remove the craftsman involved in carving whatever and the aesthetic value decreases.

nice post clean, you are extremely articulate and intelligent unlike some other people in here who tried to downsize the importance of Nguyen Anh
福州市长
do chinese cares who is he??
he not even mention in our history books...
Clean
Some people simply don't realize the importance even one man can have on history. Nevermind the CHIEF ARCHITECT. He stayed the main architect for probably the Ming Dynasty's role in building Beijing. NO DYNASTY of Chinese is "minor" within the confines of China. The Communist did have a role, and yes, the Manchu also had a hand. But you can't simply forget about the Ming Dynasty.

People tend to downsize or exaggerate, it really takes away from the final result in my opinion. Like i said, everyone had a strong role, nevermind the Chief Architect.

QUOTE
do chinese cares who is he??
he not even mention in our history books...


I've actually never read about architects in general in history books. Honestly no one ever records him. But reality is, you can't cover all aspects of history embarassedlaugh.gif
Nam Quoc Son Ha
QUOTE (Kulong @ Aug 30 2004, 02:40 PM)
QUOTE (khuanam @ Aug 30 2004, 01:35 PM)
Sure.. hard for a Chinaman to swallow huh?

I've always found self-glorifying viet propagandas (lies) hard to swallow. embarassedlaugh.gif

Hello troll. Why are you displaying your ignorance and condescending attitude again? Haven't we given you a bad beating on many previous occasions already? Or do you like to run away with your tail between your legs?
aaronly
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Aug 30 2004, 10:13 PM)
do chinese cares who is he??
he not even mention in our history books...

if you dont care you need to come in here and post, and yet you come back again and again embarassedlaugh.gif
Nam Quoc Son Ha
QUOTE (aaronly @ Aug 30 2004, 10:22 PM)
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Aug 30 2004, 10:13 PM)
do chinese cares who is he??
he not even mention in our history books...

if you dont care you need to come in here and post, and yet you come back again and again embarassedlaugh.gif

It's a fine example of Chinese arrogance that they think they're the best in EVERYTHING.

It will be heartbreaking for them if they realise that a man from a smaller state of An Nam actually designed their capital. What a shame, you can't even design your own capital. embarassedlaugh.gif
Clean
QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Aug 30 2004, 09:27 PM)
QUOTE (aaronly @ Aug 30 2004, 10:22 PM)
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Aug 30 2004, 10:13 PM)
do chinese cares who is he??
he not even mention in our history books...

if you dont care you need to come in here and post, and yet you come back again and again embarassedlaugh.gif

It's a fine example of Chinese arrogance that they think they're the best in EVERYTHING.

It will be heartbreaking for them if they realise that a man from a smaller state of An Nam actually designed their capital. What a shame, you can't even design your own capital. embarassedlaugh.gif

TBV, this is where you should've posted what you said earlier embarassedlaugh.gif
tongbao_vince
QUOTE (Clean @ Aug 30 2004, 10:29 PM)
QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Aug 30 2004, 09:27 PM)
QUOTE (aaronly @ Aug 30 2004, 10:22 PM)
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Aug 30 2004, 10:13 PM)
do chinese cares who is he??
he not even mention in our history books...

if you dont care you need to come in here and post, and yet you come back again and again embarassedlaugh.gif

It's a fine example of Chinese arrogance that they think they're the best in EVERYTHING.

It will be heartbreaking for them if they realise that a man from a smaller state of An Nam actually designed their capital. What a shame, you can't even design your own capital. embarassedlaugh.gif

TBV, this is where you should've posted what you said earlier embarassedlaugh.gif

You wish. China has had many capitals and many cities that Vietnam will never possibily rival. This Viet eunch didn't have a big deal to do with Beijing's history as Clean believes. Beijing of 1420 is not Beijing of 2004. City Planners today do more work than any City planner of the Ming dynasty, Yuan dynasty, Qing dynasty or Republic would ever do. This eunch didn't design sewers, power lines, 6 lane roads, etc. Beijing has always been there. He never 'created' or fully designed Beijing because Beijing's history begins well before 1420 almost 800 years earlier. If this story is even true, the only visable influence he and other architects made on the planning of Beijing is the location of the Forbidden City and temples surrounding it.
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