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Johannjs
QUOTE (Byron @ Sep 3 2004, 10:06 PM)
Yes during the 1000 year reign.

No... here we are in the 15th century... only 10+10 years, starting in 1407.

The first ten years, they took all our best men to serve them in China. They stole all our valuable books written in Han and in Chu Nôm. They occupy Dong Do (Thang Long was renamed during that period to Dong Do, then to Dong Quan by the Chinese). The Chinese wanted (there is a whole list in the history book Viet Nam Su Luoc) and took so much that Le Loi, a farmer, started to rebel, etc... the following 10 years was war, and we won independence once again. Le Loi used Nguyen Trai's written strategies (in Binh Ngo sach) to win this war. All Le Loi's (intelligent) royal correspondence are written by Nguyen Trai who was a soldier and a literary.
Byron
Afterwards we just paid tribute but weren't slaves.
Clean
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Sep 3 2004, 01:17 PM)
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Sep 3 2004, 09:48 AM)
That's not the only contribution that Vietnamese gave to China.  Here is what Chinese history says.

There were also 20,000 Annamese highly skilled craftsmen who were forcibly brought to Beijing to do construction work after the Ming defeated the Vietnamese dynasty of Ho quy Ly.  Timber from Northern Vietnam were imported for construction material.

That caused an Annamese landowner named Le Loi to revolt.  The struggle against the Ming lasted for twenty years and Le Loi finally routed the last Ming fortress at Xuong Giang in 1427.  (Jung-Pan Lo, "Intervention in Vietnam: A case study of the Foreign Policy of the Early Ming government," Tsing Hua Journal of Chinese Studies, new series 7, 2 (1969))

In the Ming conquest of the Ho dynasty in 1407, the Ming acquired from the Vietnamese a weapon called shen qiang, shen qiang jian or shenji huaqiang, meaning literally "magic fire-lance arrow".  It was a fire-lance, but better than its Chinese counterpart due to one unique feature: It had a heavy wooden wad (mu ma zi in Chinese) made of ironwood to increase pressure within the barrel.  The arrow could therefore be shot as far as 400 paces.  It can be imagined that the Vietnamese employed this indigenous resource to invent the wooden wad in order to increase the range of the fire-lance.  This technique was adopted in China for handguns by 1415, as a Ming handgun made in this year had a wooden wad between gunpowder and "bullets", while the handguns prior to this time did not have this salient feature.

Moreover, the igniting device of the handguns made at least from 1410 on was improved in that, instead of a small hole where a fuse was inserted, now a rectangular slot with lid was added on the rear part of the barrel.  Thus it became more convenient to ignite the gunpowder in the slot and the lid could prevent the gunpowder and fuse from getting wet in rainy days.  It has been positively identified as a Vietnamese invention to counter the tropical climate of Southeast Asia where humidity and long rainy seasons are a part of life.

Upon the order of Yongle Emperor, Vietnamese captives who were good at making firearms such as handguns and cannons (huo chong), short lance (duanqian) and fire-lance (shenjian), and gunpowder were sent to the Chinese capital of Nanjing with many other kinds of craftsmen.  Altogether, 28,000 were taken captive to China.  This included Ho nguyen Trung ("Li Cheng" in Chinese).  The Vietnamese chronicle specifically mentions that in 1407 Nguyen Trung made firearms and warships to combat the invading Chinese.  The fact that Nguyen Trung as the "Left Grand Councilor" (zuo xiangguo in Chinese) was skilled in making firearms shows the importance Dai Viet attached to gunpowder technology and the intense competition between Dai Viet and its neighbor, primarily China and Champa.  Also interestingly, it was this expertise that changed Nguyen Trung's life in China, as after having captured to Nanjing Nguyen Trung's father's Ho quy Ly and brother Ho han Thuong - two kings of the Ho dynasty - were thrown in jail, but Nguyen Trung was pardoned and allowed to serve in the Ming Ministry of Works due to his skills.  He took charge of manufacturing firearms and gunpowder at the weapon manufacturing bureau (Bingzhangju) and was eventually promoted to the Minister of Works.  He played a very important role in establishing the Firearms Battalion in Ming China.  According to official Chinese account, receiving the order to accompany the Yongle Emperor to attack the Mongols on the north frontier, three Vietnamese including Nguyen Trung set up the Firearms Battalion prior to 1412.  At least one of them (other than Nguyen trung) participated in the campaign and died soon afterwards on June 9, 1412.

According to other Chinese records, when the Ming court held a ceremony for the "God of Firearms" they also offered a sacrifice to Ho Nguyen Trung.  Upon his death at the age of seventy three, his son replaced him and continued to manufacture firearms for the Ming until he retired aged seventy in 1470.  Up to 1489, the descendents of these Vietnamese craftsmen were still in the service of the Ming.  In addition to the fire-lance and ignition device, a bow called "Vietnamese bow" (Jiaozhi gong) also spread to Ming China around this time or earlier.

The abovementioned Vietnamese techniques were used widely and had some implication for the Ming military.  During the early Hongzhi reign (1488-1505) 30,000 linden and 90,000 sandalwood wooden wads were manufactured.  Another kind of hard wood was sent from Vietnam as tribute to the capital for the manufacture of fire-lances.  The wooden wad technique was still used even after the arrival of Portuguese firearms in China in the late sixteenth century, as was the new ignition device.  The establisment of the Firearms Battalion, to which the Vietnamese contributed both personel and techniques, proved effective and sometimes crucial in Ming China's fighting with the Mongols.  In 1414, Yongle and his armies were surrounded by Mongols, it was firearms with Vietnamese technical features that helped the Ming troops break the siege.  The effectiveness of the firearms in this event impressed the Koreans, as they recorded it in their veritable record of the Yi (Choson) dynasty.

The Vietnamese fire-lance was also put into good use.  Chinese sources specifically state when the Yongle Emperor fought the Mongols, "they just got the fire-lance from Annam; one barbarian (lu) marched straight forward, and two followed; they were all hit by the fire-lance and died."  Teng Zhao, the Vice Minister of the Ministry of War during the reign of Chenghua (1465-1487) commented: "We basically rely on the fire-lance to defeat the ennemies and win victories.  From Yongle (1403-1424) to Xuangde (1426-1435), the fire-lance was properly drilled and was most feared by the barbarians (luzei, or the Mongols).  IN 1449, after the Ming suffered the Tumu debacle, more 28,000 handguns and 440,000 fire lances were collected from the battle scene.

Sources:

Wang Ao, Zhenze jiwen (Notes of Wang Ao), in Shen Yunlong, ed., Ming Qing shiliao huibian, series one, book 3 (Taibei: Wenhai Chubanshe, 1967), vol. 1 15a.

Ming shilu leizuan-junshi shiliao juan (Categorical compilation of the Ming shilu -- the volume of historical sources on military affairs) (Wuhan: Wuhan Chubanshe, 1993), pp. 88-186; Wada Sei, trans. by Pan Shixian, Ming dai Menggu shi lun ji (Collection of essays on the history of the Mongols during the Ming dynasty) (Beijing: Shangwu Yinshuguan, 1984), vol. 1, pp. 66, 68.

Ming shilu, "Xianzong," vol. 168, quoted in Zhang, "Mingdai Jiaozhi ren zai," p. 57.

Qiu Jun, Daxua yanyi bu (Supplements to the Daxue yanyi) (Reprint, 1971), vol 122, pp. 11b-12a; Yan, Shuyu, 183, 243; Hui LU, Ping pi baijin fang (The washerman's precious salve) (Reprint, c. 1844), vol. 4, p. 32b; Zhang Xiumin, "Mingdai Jiaozhi ren zai Zhongguo zhi gongxian" (Contributions by the Vietnamese people in China during the Ming dynasty), in Zhang Xiumin, Zhong Yue guanxi shi lunwenji (Collection of articles on Sino-Vietnamese relations) (Taibei; Wenshizhe Chubanshe, 1992), pp. 55-57.

so vietnamese are slaves??
hahah..

WERE slaves. And if a Viet hates you for no apparent reason, try to make a reason out of your slave remark, k?
tam_ca
wow... vietnamese.... master of asian weaponry back in the days, crazy stuff.
Nero874
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Aug 30 2004, 11:13 PM)
do chinese cares who is he??
he not even mention in our history books...

Like I said, the chinaman is too self-centered to acknowledge all of the external influences that shaped the history of its country. And you just proved that.

So in this thread alone, we've found out that the pagodas were of Indian origins, the compass were of Indian or Arabic origins, and the beijing was mainly the work of a Vietnamese, who was the CHIEF ARCHITECT. That's just lovely: we have chinese parents lying to their kids about how supposedly great their country is, and the result is 1.3 billion ignorant little chinese running around claiming this and that is theirs. embarassedlaugh.gif I wonder what else they lied about or "forgot" to leave out of their biased and heavily skewed history books - their history is just as distorted as the Japanese history.



I said I would post my source when I have time on the weekend, and here it is.



The bibliographic citation is

Serwey, et al. Physics for Scientists and Engineers. Thomson Publishing. 2004, Belmont, California.
Emperor
Sure, the compass certainly was of Indian/Arabic origin. I suppose that's why all these sites say it's a Chinese invention?

http://www.google.nl/search?q=invention+compass

I guess you're the ignorant one here, Nam kid.
Nero874
QUOTE (Emperor @ Sep 3 2004, 07:57 PM)
Sure, the compass certainly was of Indian/Arabic origin. I suppose that's why all these sites say it's a Chinese invention?

http://www.google.nl/search?q=invention+compass

I guess you're the ignorant one here, Nam kid.

I figured the little chinaboy would cry foul. Let's try to use reason here, as difficult as it may be for you.

1) The book I quoted from is an actual book used in acadamia. For a book to be published, especially one that is as widely used as this, it must go through rigorous cross referencing and validation of any facts it wants to present, because the reputations of the author, the publisher are at stake, as well as credibility of scientific history.

Now, what do you offer me? Websites. Anyone can make a website...and websites do not have to go through the same rigorous validation as books do - that is why, if you can ever get into college, professors will say websites are not as credible as actual books.

Are you following me, you chinese in denial?

2) History is revised all the time. I've just presented a book published in 2004 that has the most up to date facts.




Non chinese, how do you debate with a chinese any way? You just can't win. Not because they're right, but because we have idiots like emperor and kulong who will never accept facts, as many as you may throw in their slit-eyed faces, they will always make excuses to say facts are wrong. sure.gif
ngo.ngochy
Keep it clean guys. Warned Nero for flaming.
vn1234
wow interesting thread - learnt a lot today!

i saved Doan Du's quote and Nero874's book scan - very interesting indeed

but what is a "wad"?
Nero874
QUOTE (福州市长 @ Sep 3 2004, 03:17 PM)
QUOTE (Doan Du @ Sep 3 2004, 09:48 AM)
That's not the only contribution that Vietnamese gave to China.  Here is what Chinese history says.

There were also 20,000 Annamese highly skilled craftsmen who were forcibly brought to Beijing to do construction work after the Ming defeated the Vietnamese dynasty of Ho quy Ly.  Timber from Northern Vietnam were imported for construction material.

That caused an Annamese landowner named Le Loi to revolt.  The struggle against the Ming lasted for twenty years and Le Loi finally routed the last Ming fortress at Xuong Giang in 1427.  (Jung-Pan Lo, "Intervention in Vietnam: A case study of the Foreign Policy of the Early Ming government," Tsing Hua Journal of Chinese Studies, new series 7, 2 (1969))

In the Ming conquest of the Ho dynasty in 1407, the Ming acquired from the Vietnamese a weapon called shen qiang, shen qiang jian or shenji huaqiang, meaning literally "magic fire-lance arrow".  It was a fire-lance, but better than its Chinese counterpart due to one unique feature: It had a heavy wooden wad (mu ma zi in Chinese) made of ironwood to increase pressure within the barrel.  The arrow could therefore be shot as far as 400 paces.  It can be imagined that the Vietnamese employed this indigenous resource to invent the wooden wad in order to increase the range of the fire-lance.  This technique was adopted in China for handguns by 1415, as a Ming handgun made in this year had a wooden wad between gunpowder and "bullets", while the handguns prior to this time did not have this salient feature.

Moreover, the igniting device of the handguns made at least from 1410 on was improved in that, instead of a small hole where a fuse was inserted, now a rectangular slot with lid was added on the rear part of the barrel.  Thus it became more convenient to ignite the gunpowder in the slot and the lid could prevent the gunpowder and fuse from getting wet in rainy days.  It has been positively identified as a Vietnamese invention to counter the tropical climate of Southeast Asia where humidity and long rainy seasons are a part of life.

Upon the order of Yongle Emperor, Vietnamese captives who were good at making firearms such as handguns and cannons (huo chong), short lance (duanqian) and fire-lance (shenjian), and gunpowder were sent to the Chinese capital of Nanjing with many other kinds of craftsmen.  Altogether, 28,000 were taken captive to China.  This included Ho nguyen Trung ("Li Cheng" in Chinese).  The Vietnamese chronicle specifically mentions that in 1407 Nguyen Trung made firearms and warships to combat the invading Chinese.  The fact that Nguyen Trung as the "Left Grand Councilor" (zuo xiangguo in Chinese) was skilled in making firearms shows the importance Dai Viet attached to gunpowder technology and the intense competition between Dai Viet and its neighbor, primarily China and Champa.  Also interestingly, it was this expertise that changed Nguyen Trung's life in China, as after having captured to Nanjing Nguyen Trung's father's Ho quy Ly and brother Ho han Thuong - two kings of the Ho dynasty - were thrown in jail, but Nguyen Trung was pardoned and allowed to serve in the Ming Ministry of Works due to his skills.  He took charge of manufacturing firearms and gunpowder at the weapon manufacturing bureau (Bingzhangju) and was eventually promoted to the Minister of Works.  He played a very important role in establishing the Firearms Battalion in Ming China.  According to official Chinese account, receiving the order to accompany the Yongle Emperor to attack the Mongols on the north frontier, three Vietnamese including Nguyen Trung set up the Firearms Battalion prior to 1412.  At least one of them (other than Nguyen trung) participated in the campaign and died soon afterwards on June 9, 1412.

According to other Chinese records, when the Ming court held a ceremony for the "God of Firearms" they also offered a sacrifice to Ho Nguyen Trung.  Upon his death at the age of seventy three, his son replaced him and continued to manufacture firearms for the Ming until he retired aged seventy in 1470.  Up to 1489, the descendents of these Vietnamese craftsmen were still in the service of the Ming.  In addition to the fire-lance and ignition device, a bow called "Vietnamese bow" (Jiaozhi gong) also spread to Ming China around this time or earlier.

The abovementioned Vietnamese techniques were used widely and had some implication for the Ming military.  During the early Hongzhi reign (1488-1505) 30,000 linden and 90,000 sandalwood wooden wads were manufactured.  Another kind of hard wood was sent from Vietnam as tribute to the capital for the manufacture of fire-lances.  The wooden wad technique was still used even after the arrival of Portuguese firearms in China in the late sixteenth century, as was the new ignition device.  The establisment of the Firearms Battalion, to which the Vietnamese contributed both personel and techniques, proved effective and sometimes crucial in Ming China's fighting with the Mongols.  In 1414, Yongle and his armies were surrounded by Mongols, it was firearms with Vietnamese technical features that helped the Ming troops break the siege.  The effectiveness of the firearms in this event impressed the Koreans, as they recorded it in their veritable record of the Yi (Choson) dynasty.

The Vietnamese fire-lance was also put into good use.  Chinese sources specifically state when the Yongle Emperor fought the Mongols, "they just got the fire-lance from Annam; one barbarian (lu) marched straight forward, and two followed; they were all hit by the fire-lance and died."  Teng Zhao, the Vice Minister of the Ministry of War during the reign of Chenghua (1465-1487) commented: "We basically rely on the fire-lance to defeat the ennemies and win victories.  From Yongle (1403-1424) to Xuangde (1426-1435), the fire-lance was properly drilled and was most feared by the barbarians (luzei, or the Mongols).  IN 1449, after the Ming suffered the Tumu debacle, more 28,000 handguns and 440,000 fire lances were collected from the battle scene.

Sources:

Wang Ao, Zhenze jiwen (Notes of Wang Ao), in Shen Yunlong, ed., Ming Qing shiliao huibian, series one, book 3 (Taibei: Wenhai Chubanshe, 1967), vol. 1 15a.

Ming shilu leizuan-junshi shiliao juan (Categorical compilation of the Ming shilu -- the volume of historical sources on military affairs) (Wuhan: Wuhan Chubanshe, 1993), pp. 88-186; Wada Sei, trans. by Pan Shixian, Ming dai Menggu shi lun ji (Collection of essays on the history of the Mongols during the Ming dynasty) (Beijing: Shangwu Yinshuguan, 1984), vol. 1, pp. 66, 68.

Ming shilu, "Xianzong," vol. 168, quoted in Zhang, "Mingdai Jiaozhi ren zai," p. 57.

Qiu Jun, Daxua yanyi bu (Supplements to the Daxue yanyi) (Reprint, 1971), vol 122, pp. 11b-12a; Yan, Shuyu, 183, 243; Hui LU, Ping pi baijin fang (The washerman's precious salve) (Reprint, c. 1844), vol. 4, p. 32b; Zhang Xiumin, "Mingdai Jiaozhi ren zai Zhongguo zhi gongxian" (Contributions by the Vietnamese people in China during the Ming dynasty), in Zhang Xiumin, Zhong Yue guanxi shi lunwenji (Collection of articles on Sino-Vietnamese relations) (Taibei; Wenshizhe Chubanshe, 1992), pp. 55-57.

so vietnamese are slaves??
hahah..

If other people's misery is funny to you, then do you find it funny with what happened in nanking? Hmm...maybe I could post pictures of dead little chinese girls after they were raped by the Japanese, if that's something that tickles your funny bone.
tqt
QUOTE
maybe I could post pictures of dead little chinese girls after they were raped by the Japanese, if that's something that tickles your funny bone.


That would be intertesting.
Clean
QUOTE (tqt @ Sep 4 2004, 12:25 AM)
QUOTE
maybe I could post pictures of dead little chinese girls after they were raped by the Japanese, if that's something that tickles your funny bone.


That would be intertesting.

His humor is tasteless. Honestly, how would he feel if i said "so Chinese are sex slaves?" after that initial statement of Nanking was presented.
Emperor
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 02:14 AM)
Non chinese, how do you debate with a chinese any way? You just can't win. Not because they're right, but because we have idiots like emperor and kulong who will never accept facts, as many as you may throw in their slit-eyed faces, they will always make excuses to say facts are wrong. sure.gif

How about this?

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalvi...irstchinese.htm

The fact that you actually believe this afrocentrist site says a lot about your weak mind. :genius:

Btw, i noticed your posts contain a lot of insults towards Chinese. Are you trying to compensate your weak "arguments" with insults? I can tell you, it wont work.

Better luck next time, Nam boy.
GenomVirues
is not about who said it first is about who said it best....
so doesnt matter if the chinese dint invented the compass they made it better and gave it a purpose..dont take that away from them....
Nero874
QUOTE (Emperor @ Sep 4 2004, 09:03 AM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 02:14 AM)
Non chinese, how do you debate with a chinese any way? You just can't win.  Not because they're right, but because we have idiots like emperor and kulong who will never accept facts, as many as you may throw in their slit-eyed faces, they will always make excuses to say facts are wrong.  sure.gif

How about this?

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalvi...irstchinese.htm

The fact that you actually believe this afrocentrist site says a lot about your weak mind. :genius:

Btw, i noticed your posts contain a lot of insults towards Chinese. Are you trying to compensate your weak "arguments" with insults? I can tell you, it wont work.

Better luck next time, Nam boy.

Yup, that's the typical chinese response when you give them facts. Regarding the Vietnamese building beijing, kulong's response is "Vietnamese proganda!" And says nothing else to refute the evidence. Likewise, your typical chinese argument "african propaganda!" and says nothing to refute the sources. Seems like all chinamen argue like this.

Really, where are you evidences that refutes the articles that said the first chinese weren't negritos? And it's funny you call it "afrocentrist" when negritos aren't Africans. So Africans wouldn't benefit from anything by saying the first chinese were negritos. Very pathetic, you little chinese/self-hating negrito.

Oh, and where are your reputables sources that says china invented the compass? Like I said, websites aren't as dependable as books.

My patience when debating with you chinese is growing very thin. I would appreciate you backing your statement next time instead of claiming everything you don't like to hear is propaganda.. embarassedlaugh.gif
supernovasp
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 09:22 PM)
QUOTE (Emperor @ Sep 4 2004, 09:03 AM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 02:14 AM)
Non chinese, how do you debate with a chinese any way? You just can't win.  Not because they're right, but because we have idiots like emperor and kulong who will never accept facts, as many as you may throw in their slit-eyed faces, they will always make excuses to say facts are wrong.  sure.gif

How about this?

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalvi...irstchinese.htm

The fact that you actually believe this afrocentrist site says a lot about your weak mind. :genius:

Btw, i noticed your posts contain a lot of insults towards Chinese. Are you trying to compensate your weak "arguments" with insults? I can tell you, it wont work.

Better luck next time, Nam boy.

Yup, that's the typical chinese response when you give them facts. Regarding the Vietnamese building beijing, kulong's response is "Vietnamese proganda!" And says nothing else to refute the evidence. Likewise, your typical chinese argument "african propaganda!" and says nothing to refute the sources. Seems like all chinamen argue like this.

Really, where are you evidences that refutes the articles that said the first chinese weren't negritos? And it's funny you call it "afrocentrist" when negritos aren't Africans. So Africans wouldn't benefit from anything by saying the first chinese were negritos. Very pathetic, you little chinese/self-hating negrito.

Oh, and where are your reputables sources that says china invented the compass? Like I said, websites aren't as dependable as books.

My patience when debating with you chinese is growing very thin. I would appreciate you backing your statement next time instead of claiming everything you don't like to hear is propaganda.. embarassedlaugh.gif

It sounds like African propaganda anyway, many facts you read in there are twisted.
hsinchi
I hope one day people will be tired of all these.
Nero874
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:27 PM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 09:22 PM)
QUOTE (Emperor @ Sep 4 2004, 09:03 AM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 02:14 AM)
Non chinese, how do you debate with a chinese any way? You just can't win.  Not because they're right, but because we have idiots like emperor and kulong who will never accept facts, as many as you may throw in their slit-eyed faces, they will always make excuses to say facts are wrong.  sure.gif

How about this?

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalvi...irstchinese.htm

The fact that you actually believe this afrocentrist site says a lot about your weak mind. :genius:

Btw, i noticed your posts contain a lot of insults towards Chinese. Are you trying to compensate your weak "arguments" with insults? I can tell you, it wont work.

Better luck next time, Nam boy.

Yup, that's the typical chinese response when you give them facts. Regarding the Vietnamese building beijing, kulong's response is "Vietnamese proganda!" And says nothing else to refute the evidence. Likewise, your typical chinese argument "african propaganda!" and says nothing to refute the sources. Seems like all chinamen argue like this.

Really, where are you evidences that refutes the articles that said the first chinese weren't negritos? And it's funny you call it "afrocentrist" when negritos aren't Africans. So Africans wouldn't benefit from anything by saying the first chinese were negritos. Very pathetic, you little chinese/self-hating negrito.

Oh, and where are your reputables sources that says china invented the compass? Like I said, websites aren't as dependable as books.

My patience when debating with you chinese is growing very thin. I would appreciate you backing your statement next time instead of claiming everything you don't like to hear is propaganda.. embarassedlaugh.gif

It sounds like African propaganda anyway, many facts you read in there are twisted.

I don't understand how people can argue like this and think they've made a point.

Ok, what facts are twisted? What counter-arguments do you have to refute it (be sure to provide sources)? And how is it Afrocentric when Negritos aren't Africans?
supernovasp
The pictures itself are irrelevant, if you look at old Korean pictures, a lot of the farmers look very dark like the pictures. Heck look for the Vietnamese picture in the early French colonialism, they look incredibly dark, probably because it's contrast of black and white photo.
tam_ca
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 09:42 PM)
The pictures itself are irrelevant, if you look at old Korean pictures, a lot of the farmers look very dark like the pictures. Heck look for the Vietnamese picture in the early French colonialism, they look incredibly dark, probably because it's contrast of black and white photo.

not just the vietnamese but they had old colonial pictures of cho lon, and all the chinese half bald, and braided hair. pig tail style...whatever.. was very very incredibly dark.
Nero874
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:42 PM)
The pictures itself are irrelevant, if you look at old Korean pictures, a lot of the farmers look very dark like the pictures. Heck look for the Vietnamese picture in the early French colonialism, they look incredibly dark, probably because it's contrast of black and white photo.

So you've concluded the article is wrong based on the picture? There's gotta be something else too.

But, to address the picture....I'll let you win that dark color argument. But what about the broad nose and thick lips? Is that because of lighting too?
supernovasp
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 09:48 PM)
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:42 PM)
The pictures itself are irrelevant, if you look at old Korean pictures, a lot of the farmers look very dark like the pictures. Heck look for the Vietnamese picture in the early French colonialism, they look incredibly dark, probably because it's contrast of black and white photo.

So you've concluded the article is wrong based on the picture? There's gotta be something else too.

But, to address the picture....I'll let you win that dark color argument. But what about the broad nose and thick lips? Is that because of lighting too?

Uhm look at those guys feature again icon_rolleyes.gif
Nam Quoc Son Ha
One conclusion I have from seeing old pictures of Vietnamese people: short, dark and very ugly embarassedlaugh.gif
hsinchi
I wouldn't try that hard to prove other people orginally looked like this and like that.
Nero874
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:49 PM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 09:48 PM)
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:42 PM)
The pictures itself are irrelevant, if you look at old Korean pictures, a lot of the farmers look very dark like the pictures. Heck look for the Vietnamese picture in the early French colonialism, they look incredibly dark, probably because it's contrast of black and white photo.

So you've concluded the article is wrong based on the picture? There's gotta be something else too.

But, to address the picture....I'll let you win that dark color argument. But what about the broad nose and thick lips? Is that because of lighting too?

Uhm look at those guys feature again icon_rolleyes.gif

supernovasp
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 09:55 PM)
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:49 PM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 09:48 PM)
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:42 PM)
The pictures itself are irrelevant, if you look at old Korean pictures, a lot of the farmers look very dark like the pictures. Heck look for the Vietnamese picture in the early French colonialism, they look incredibly dark, probably because it's contrast of black and white photo.

So you've concluded the article is wrong based on the picture? There's gotta be something else too.

But, to address the picture....I'll let you win that dark color argument. But what about the broad nose and thick lips? Is that because of lighting too?

Uhm look at those guys feature again icon_rolleyes.gif

http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/123negrito.jpg

Those guys have large noses?

I think i'm blind
Nero874
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:56 PM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 09:55 PM)
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:49 PM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 09:48 PM)
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:42 PM)
The pictures itself are irrelevant, if you look at old Korean pictures, a lot of the farmers look very dark like the pictures. Heck look for the Vietnamese picture in the early French colonialism, they look incredibly dark, probably because it's contrast of black and white photo.

So you've concluded the article is wrong based on the picture? There's gotta be something else too.

But, to address the picture....I'll let you win that dark color argument. But what about the broad nose and thick lips? Is that because of lighting too?

Uhm look at those guys feature again icon_rolleyes.gif

http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/123negrito.jpg

Those guys have large noses?

I think i'm blind

I think you are.

First guy has broad nose, dark skin, thick lips, and small eyes. The rest has some of the earlier features, but all hvae broad noses.
Clean
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 08:55 PM)
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:49 PM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 09:48 PM)
QUOTE (supernovasp @ Sep 4 2004, 10:42 PM)
The pictures itself are irrelevant, if you look at old Korean pictures, a lot of the farmers look very dark like the pictures. Heck look for the Vietnamese picture in the early French colonialism, they look incredibly dark, probably because it's contrast of black and white photo.

So you've concluded the article is wrong based on the picture? There's gotta be something else too.

But, to address the picture....I'll let you win that dark color argument. But what about the broad nose and thick lips? Is that because of lighting too?

Uhm look at those guys feature again icon_rolleyes.gif


Who are those guys again?
hsinchi
Ok then. Just let it be. A person keeps one's own opinion.
I hope there will be no Chinese members coming in here, start posting pictures of ugly ancient Vietnamese and trying that hard to prove they look like this and like that.
Nam Quoc Son Ha
QUOTE (hsinchi @ Sep 4 2004, 10:32 PM)
Ok then. Just let it be. A person keeps one's own opinion.
I hope there will be no Chinese members coming in here, start posting pictures of ugly ancient Vietnamese and trying that hard to prove they look like this and like that.

We will kick the crap out of them if they'd ever dare to do that.
Nero874
QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Sep 4 2004, 11:35 PM)
QUOTE (hsinchi @ Sep 4 2004, 10:32 PM)
Ok then. Just let it be. A person keeps one's own opinion.
I hope there will be no Chinese members coming in here, start posting pictures of ugly ancient Vietnamese and trying that hard to prove they look like this and like that.

We will kick the crap out of them if they'd ever dare to do that.

Why? If they're Vietnamese, then they're Vietnamese. VN has 54 ethnic minorities, the first inhabitors of SE Asia were negritos, the Chams were conquered and were assimulated into VN, and plenty of chinamen immigrated to VN. I don't think anyone could deny, or even want to deny, the Vietnamese are a diverse people. So if some chinamen decided to find an ugly picture of a Vietnamese, whether the guy in the picture is Kinh, Cham, or even chinese, if he lives in VN, then he's a Vietnamese - nothing to get mad over.

But the chinese have fiercely resisted the notion that they may not be of a pure "master" han race after all. embarassedlaugh.gif We Viet know we're diverse and may not have pure Vietnamese blood, and we're fine with it...now it's the chinaman's turn to finally realize, oh my god, they may not be all han after all, and actually were negritos somewhere down along the line. I wonder how hard it is to be living in denial all their lives.
hsinchi
QUOTE
Nero874 Posted on Sep 4 2004, 10:50 PM
  QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Sep 4 2004, 11:35 PM)
QUOTE (hsinchi @ Sep 4 2004, 10:32 PM)
Ok then. Just let it be. A person keeps one's own opinion.
I hope there will be no Chinese members coming in here, start posting pictures of ugly ancient Vietnamese and trying that hard to prove they look like this and like that. 


We will kick the crap out of them if they'd ever dare to do that. 


Why? If they're Vietnamese, then they're Vietnamese. VN has 54 ethnic minorities, the first inhabitors of SE Asia were negritos, the Chams were conquered and were assimulated into VN, and plenty of chinamen immigrated to VN. I don't think anyone could deny, or even want to deny, the Vietnamese are a diverse people. So if some chinamen decided to find an ugly picture of a Vietnamese, whether the guy in the picture is Kinh, Cham, or even chinese, if he lives in VN, then he's a Vietnamese - nothing to get mad over.

But the chinese have fiercely resisted the notion that they may not be of a pure "master" han race after all.  We Viet know we're diverse and may not have pure Vietnamese blood, and we're fine with it...now it's the chinaman's turn to finally realize, oh my god, they may not be all han after all, and actually were negritos somewhere down along the line. I wonder how hard it is to be living in denial all their lives. 


Ok then. I think you have said enough. If they don't believe it, you can't convince them anyway. If it is a fact, you don't have to try that hard to prove it. If it is not, regardless of how hard you try, it doesn't make any sense. Thanks for sharing the info. Now let's people judge it themselves.
tam_ca
we are getting KINDA.... off topic.
herosword
In the end does it matter who invented what? What's important is who smart enough to adapt the utilize the technology to their advantage. The Roman Empire didn't invent anything notable except cement and good roads, but they sure are good adapting other people's ideas to benefit themselves.

Yeah but good luck on getting the mainland Chinese to acknowledge anything other people did. They have been brainwashed in school to be extreme nationalist.
DAI_VIET
QUOTE (herosword @ Sep 5 2004, 01:35 AM)
In the end does it matter who invented what? What's important is who smart enough to adapt the utilize the technology to their advantage. The Roman Empire didn't invent anything notable except cement and good roads, but they sure are good adapting other people's ideas to benefit themselves.

Aquaducts and arches.
VietNamDNCongHoa
As i said, there are many ethnics in China. They have different skin color and speak different languages. Black Chinese are mentioned in literature too. Like the guy name Quan Cong. Some Montagnards in Central Highland look like real black people.

Vietnamese and Chinese believed in feng shui, or Phong Thuy. It's an art and a science that aims to ensure that all things are in harmony with their surroundings. Hue and Beijing, I believe, was built according to feng shui.
MING-LOYALIST
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 4 2004, 10:50 PM)
QUOTE (Nam Quoc Son Ha @ Sep 4 2004, 11:35 PM)
QUOTE (hsinchi @ Sep 4 2004, 10:32 PM)
 


Why? If they're Vietnamese, then they're Vietnamese. VN has 54 ethnic minorities, the first inhabitors of SE Asia were negritos, the Chams were conquered and were assimulated into VN, and plenty of chinamen immigrated to VN. I don't think anyone could deny, or even want to deny, the Vietnamese are a diverse people. So if some chinamen decided to find an ugly picture of a Vietnamese, whether the guy in the picture is Kinh, Cham, or even chinese, if he lives in VN, then he's a Vietnamese - nothing to get mad over.

But the chinese have fiercely resisted the notion that they may not be of a pure "master" han race after all. embarassedlaugh.gif We Viet know we're diverse and may not have pure Vietnamese blood, and we're fine with it...now it's the chinaman's turn to finally realize, oh my god, they may not be all han after all, and actually were negritos somewhere down along the line. I wonder how hard it is to be living in denial all their lives.

Nero did you get kicked in the balls by a Chinaman at school or something? cause your Chinese bashing is amazing!
Johannjs
QUOTE (tam_ca @ Sep 5 2004, 06:01 AM)
we are getting KINDA.... off topic.

I agree on that. Whether the 3 people in the pictures are Vietnamese or Chinese, I think they look beautiful healthy individuals.

So these were the Asian Iroquois!? icon_smile.gif I can understand now why today's Viet girls are so cute! biggrin.gif

We shouldn't judge people on their appearences. If some racists don't like their neighbours, whatever the reasons, I would suggest that they move house elsewhere (but it's not sure at all, that they, in turn, would be accepted elsewhere). sure.gif

Let's go back to topic!

QUOTE (Doan Du @ Sep 3 2004, 04:48 PM)
That's not the only contribution that Vietnamese gave to China.  Here is what Chinese history says.

There were also 20,000 Annamese highly skilled craftsmen who were forcibly brought to Beijing to do construction work after the Ming defeated the Vietnamese dynasty of Ho quy Ly.  Timber from Northern Vietnam were imported for construction material.

That caused an Annamese landowner named Le Loi to revolt.  The struggle against the Ming lasted for twenty years and Le Loi finally routed the last Ming fortress at Xuong Giang in 1427.  (Jung-Pan Lo, "Intervention in Vietnam: A case study of the Foreign Policy of the Early Ming government," Tsing Hua Journal of Chinese Studies, new series 7, 2 (1969))

...

I'm quite sure there will be more findings on how the Vietnamese art craftmanships had influenced the cultural and artistic achievements specifically in the Chinese Ming's era. I am also quite sure there already were many, even before that!

I would quote only the 3 last paragraphs of this very interesting link from Vietnamtourism.com.vn (The history of Vietnam in English for those of us who don't read Vietnamese; here, we've got some of our technologies, together with Ho Nguyen Trung's cannons, which were exported to China)

QUOTE ( [url="http://www.vietnamtourism.com/e_pages/vietnam/introduction/history/eih_lyandtran.htm")
http://www.vietnamtourism.com/e_pages/viet...h_lyandtran.htm[/url] ] Among the great monuments from the Tran period are the Tay Do citadel, built by Ho Quy Ly in Thanh Hoa province in 1397, and which served as a capital for a short time. Rectangular in shape, 900 meters long and 700 metres wide, with 6 metre-high ramparts, it was built of large stone blocks, some of them 6 metres long, 1.7 metres wide and 1.2 metres high and weighing 16 tons. Of the ancient palaces, only a few traces have survived,such as stone dragons decorating flights of steps. The arched porticoes were built from huge stone blocks.

Architecture had thus reached a high level. Among other forms of technology was the casting of cannon. Ho Nguyen Trung, taken prisoner by the Ming, was entrusted by the Chinese emperor to make cannons for the Chinese army. Astronomy also developed to some extent. It is recorded in the annals that the mandarin Dang Lo, in charge of astrology under the Tran, invented an instrument used to observe celestial phenomena.

During the reign of Tran Due Ton (1341-69), lived the famous physician Tue Tinh who made a special study of the healing properties of local plants and herbs. In 1352, he was invited to China to attend the Chinese empress. He left several medical treatises, the most famous of which is the Nam Duoc Than Hieu (About the Marvelous Effects of National Medicines).
Emperor
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 5 2004, 04:22 AM)
Yup, that's the typical chinese response when you give them facts. Regarding the Vietnamese building beijing, kulong's response is "Vietnamese proganda!" And says nothing else to refute the evidence. Likewise, your typical chinese argument "african propaganda!" and says nothing to refute the sources. Seems like all chinamen argue like this.

Really, where are you evidences that refutes the articles that said the first chinese weren't negritos? And it's funny you call it "afrocentrist" when negritos aren't Africans. So Africans wouldn't benefit from anything by saying the first chinese were negritos. Very pathetic, you little chinese/self-hating negrito.

Oh, and where are your reputables sources that says china invented the compass? Like I said, websites aren't as dependable as books.

My patience when debating with you chinese is growing very thin. I would appreciate you backing your statement next time instead of claiming everything you don't like to hear is propaganda.. embarassedlaugh.gif

No, you're the one that's unable to debate.
I'll quote something you said earlier: "Websites. Anyone can make a website...and websites do not have to go through the same rigorous validation as books do".

ROFL, first you say that the websites I presented weren't valid because "everyone can make a website", and thus aren't facts. Look what you are doing now, saying the first Chinese were negritos only because some afrocentrist website says so - pathetic is you ask me.

Secondly, who says thick lips and broad noses are negrito/Negro features?
I know a lot of Vietnamese and other SE-Asians that have these features, it doesn't necessarily mean they have negrito ancestry. Thick lips and broad noses seem to be quite common among SE-Asians. You would've known if you did some more research, but I guess you're too dumb to do such a thing.

QUOTE
But the Chinese have fiercely resisted the notion that they may not be of a pure "master" Han race after all.


OMG, I can't believe this... are you really this dumb, or are you just trolling?
WHEN did I say the "HAN race" (Han isn't a race, but an ethnicity...) was pure?
All I ever said about the Han ethnicity was that mixed with a lot of other ethnicities (Mongols, Manchu and other northern tribes in the north and Viet/Thai/Hmong in the South - mixing is almost inevitable when different ethnicities meet). I NEVER claimed the Han Chinese are pure. If you're thinking otherwise, I'd like you to proof it by quoting my post where I say the Han-Chinese are pure "Hans", otherwise you're just a loser that's putting words in other's mouths.

BTW. the usage of all those insults in your posts already show that you're a immature little Namkid that's in no way able to discuss a matter.
I suggest you just quit it, you're just making yourself look like an idiotic @$$.
Nam Quoc Son Ha
QUOTE (Emperor @ Sep 5 2004, 09:14 AM)
QUOTE (Nero874 @ Sep 5 2004, 04:22 AM)
Yup, that's the typical chinese response when you give them facts.  Regarding the Vietnamese building beijing, kulong's response is "Vietnamese proganda!" And says nothing else to refute the evidence.  Likewise, your typical chinese argument "african propaganda!" and says nothing to refute the sources.  Seems like all chinamen argue like this. 

Really, where are you evidences that refutes the articles that said the first chinese weren't negritos?  And it's funny you call it "afrocentrist" when negritos aren't Africans. So Africans wouldn't benefit from anything by saying the first chinese were negritos. Very pathetic, you little chinese/self-hating negrito.

Oh, and where are your reputables sources that says china invented the compass? Like I said, websites aren't as dependable as books.

My patience when debating with you chinese is growing very thin.  I would appreciate you backing your statement next time instead of claiming everything you don't like to hear is propaganda..  embarassedlaugh.gif

No, you're the one that's unable to debate.
I'll quote something you said earlier: "Websites. Anyone can make a website...and websites do not have to go through the same rigorous validation as books do".

ROFL, first you say that the websites I presented weren't valid because "everyone can make a website", and thus aren't facts. Look what you are doing now, saying the first Chinese were negritos only because some afrocentrist website says so - pathetic is you ask me.

Secondly, who says thick lips and broad noses are negrito/Negro features?
I know a lot of Vietnamese and other SE-Asians that have these features, it doesn't necessarily mean they have negrito ancestry. Thick lips and broad noses seem to be quite common among SE-Asians. You would've known if you did some more research, but I guess you're too dumb to do such a thing.

QUOTE
But the Chinese have fiercely resisted the notion that they may not be of a pure "master" Han race after all.


OMG, I can't believe this... are you really this dumb, or are you just trolling?
WHEN did I say the "HAN race" (Han isn't a race, but an ethnicity...) was pure?
All I ever said about the Han ethnicity was that mixed with a lot of other ethnicities (Mongols, Manchu and other northern tribes in the north and Viet/Thai/Hmong in the South - mixing is almost inevitable when different ethnicities meet). I NEVER claimed the Han Chinese are pure. If you're thinking otherwise, I'd like you to proof it by quoting my post where I say the Han-Chinese are pure "Hans", otherwise you're just a loser that's putting words in other's mouths.

BTW. the usage of all those insults in your posts already show that you're a immature little Namkid that's in no way able to discuss a matter.
I suggest you just quit it, you're just making yourself look like an idiotic @$$.

The only idiot I see around here is you.
DaiNamViet


Here's a light skinned Negrito embarassedlaugh.gif --- beerchug.gif
Emperor
QUOTE (DaiNamViet @ Sep 5 2004, 04:36 PM)


Here's a light skinned Negrito embarassedlaugh.gif --- beerchug.gif

Is that you? icon_smile.gif
DaiNamViet
QUOTE (Emperor @ Sep 5 2004, 10:37 AM)
QUOTE (DaiNamViet @ Sep 5 2004, 04:36 PM)


Here's a light skinned Negrito  embarassedlaugh.gif --- beerchug.gif

Is that you? icon_smile.gif

Hhahaha yea I guess, not all Negroids are black you know icon_wink.gif
Emperor
QUOTE (DaiNamViet @ Sep 5 2004, 04:39 PM)
QUOTE (Emperor @ Sep 5 2004, 10:37 AM)
QUOTE (DaiNamViet @ Sep 5 2004, 04:36 PM)


Here's a light skinned Negrito  embarassedlaugh.gif --- beerchug.gif

Is that you? icon_smile.gif

Hhahaha yea I guess, not all Negroids are black you know icon_wink.gif

lol.

nah, i don't think you look negrito. icon_neutral.gif
DaiNamViet
QUOTE (Emperor @ Sep 5 2004, 10:42 AM)
QUOTE (DaiNamViet @ Sep 5 2004, 04:39 PM)
QUOTE (Emperor @ Sep 5 2004, 10:37 AM)
QUOTE (DaiNamViet @ Sep 5 2004, 04:36 PM)


Here's a light skinned Negrito  embarassedlaugh.gif --- beerchug.gif

Is that you? icon_smile.gif

Hhahaha yea I guess, not all Negroids are black you know icon_wink.gif

lol.

nah, i don't think you look negrito. icon_neutral.gif

Yea, I think just the nose and lips embarassedlaugh.gif embarassedlaugh.gif
IYIiDWeSt_T.S.I3
This is getting off-topic, Closed.
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