Okay, so I was raised as a Buddhist right? Dao Phuc and all, but my family believes in God, aka Troi. However, when I read about Buddhism, there's no mention or God, and many sources consider it an atheist religion, meaning without God, so... can someone explain what type of Buddhism this is? I'm really confused as to what to say when someone asks me what my faith is, because when I say Buddhist, they assume I'm a heathen or something.

Thank you

Before the advent of Christianity in Vietnam,

Vietnamese thought of "Tro*`i" from Heaven and Earth,

like the Confucianism concept of the Emperor represents the Heaven and his subjects are the Earth.

Buddhism does not talk much about heaven.

Thank you for the fast reply, but I guess the main question is, what faith am I?

Buddhist... a lot of Buddhist families believe in "ong troi", which could be referring to the Jade Emperor in Daoist mythology (if you've noticed, Buddhism incorporates a lot of elements of Daoism and vice versa). That does not make your family any less Buddhist in any way though.

When I was young, my mom always scare me whenever I do something wrong. Saying ong troi danh chet...talking about he'll strike me with lightning if I be rude to other people such =/

since buddhist himself is not a god, he was a prince that came down to help poor people and gave out many moral lessons, buddhist families are sometimes considered atheist. We all know he was not almighty god

Hm yeah, I know that Buddha was just human, however, I'm wondering if Troi is the same as God or Allah?

IMHO, troi is not a religious image. It is mythical image in some old stories. And now, people use it in context as Zeus or simply an unknown god, like when you say "oh My God"
probably = Allah

God is full of $hit.........

Hail Fable,

There is a big difference between the "historical Buddha" (Siddhartha Gautama) and what later became the Buddist religion. What we see in Buddism (bodhisatvahs, asparas, the cycle of existences, etc.) are the result of hundreds of years of people adding on to the kernel of Siddhartha's thought. None of those subjects (or many related ones) were ever part of his sermons or rudimentary theology. Much of what is included in today's Buddhism are collected bits of other cultures that have been added, forced, or absorbed over hundreds of years. The historical Siddartha would probably not recognize modern Buddhism as having anything to do with his thoughts.

Siddartha Guatama never claimed to be (a) God, never desired to be worshipped as (a) God, and never expressed a personal belief in the existence of (a) God. The result of his "enlightenment" was the Eightfold Path (the 8 'Rights'), but he never defined what 'right' IS or what makes something 'right'. The historical Buddha, left us a few good intentions, but nothing that one would call a 'religion'.

On Troi being the same as God or Allah: I would venture that Duc Chua Troi in Vietnam comes from the same cultural memory transmission as Shang Di (The Lord on High) of China. I'm not saying one was derived from the other, but linguistically and culturally, they seem to come from the same place/time/religon/idea. The earliest written records in China (from the Shang Dynasty) describe Shang Di AND specific types of worship of him as remarkably similar to the way the God of the Old Testament of the Bible was described and worshipped (both, again, possibly coming from the same cultural memory through migrations of people from one land to another). A number of good historians would agree that the God of the Bible could very well be "original" Shang Di/ Duc Chua Troi. (Just like the religion of Buddhism, both Duc Chua Troi and Shang Di have had stories and attributes given to them over the centuries that were not there earlier).

The God of the Bible and Islam's Allah are mutually exclusive. They are totally different in their character, attributes and their intent. Additionally, Islam asserts that salvation comes only through the words of Muhammed (the only author of the Koran). The Bible, by contrast, gives the words of Jesus in John 14:6: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father (God) except through me." Additionally the Bible consists of 66 books written by over 40 authors over thousands of years and is remarkably internally consistant. The Koran cannot make this claim even with only one author.

Anyway, I think the more central question is not what "religion" are you, but what is the Truth. Find the Truth and follow that.

...and to the relativists that I know are out there: "If everything is relative, and nothing absolute, then why don't I just take this gun and blow your head off. But if SOME things are ALWAYS wrong, then SOMEthing MUST be Right."

Religion is just a belief. It does not have to have a GOD for it to be a religion.

@rage
Well put.

The person we know as Buddha simply said: "I have been lucky enough to discover a discipline which enables me to see past the suffering of everyday life. I will share that discipline with anybody who cares to listen."

The Buddha emphasised personal practice. He never mentioned gods, heavens, and never suggested worshipping invisible mythic deities. In short, he said that "God" is in each person's head, you just have to find it.

As 'rage' said, Buddhism has grown to become something different. Some of the "Buddhist" practices I have seen in Vietnam, like giving money to a monk in return for a prayer that you will become wealthy, are 180 degrees opposite of what the Buddha was suggesting.

All the Ong Troi stuff, and the shrines with Ong Dia and Ong Than Tai may be mythic religion of some kind (animism, perhaps), but they sure aren't Buddhism.

there's no god in Buddhism ~ and Buddhism came to Vietnam from India through China.

I read that the ancient Vietnamese before influenced by the Chinese worshiped their ancestors and the Sun God. The image of the sun in the center of the Đông Sơn drums reflects this religious belief. So does the "khăn đống" hat worn by Vietnamese ladies of noble families. The hat is supposed to symbolize the sun which represented power in Viet society.

BTW the layers of circles in khăn đống also make it similar to the layers of circles in the Đông Sơn drum.

Well, what we know historically and linguistically points to much Vietnamese and Chinese local religion likely coming from the same cultural memory - but neither appears to have ever worshipped a "sun god". The earliest Chinese written written records show a clear organizational hierarchy for their worship: ancestors (the lowest level - these were honored and revered but not worshipped in the classical sense), nature deities called SHEN (various spirits who seem to have been given responsibility over aspects of the natural world), and SHANG DI ('The Lord on High' - omniscient, omnipotent Creator God who rules over all others (shen, ancestors, nations, etc.)). The earliest characters do not associate Shang Di with any particular celestial body (He is not a 'sun god'), but rather the Master of all Creation (God of all including the sun).

Linguistically, Shang Di and Duc Chua Troi are similar in that they are not (or were not) intended to represent a 'sky' god. The "tro+`i" part of Duc Chua Troi is the idiomatic linguistic equivalent of "on High"...not "the sky" literally, but the positional relationship of God to His creation (above it and over it all). There seems to be a long-standing cultural understanding of a strong kind of monotheism running through the histories of both countries.

The Dong San drums are fantastic, but the inscriptions on them are almost completely without context. You could just as easily create a case for crane-gods and frog-gods from them as you can sun-gods. These images may represent Shen or may just be pictures from nature. Either way, it seems that the pattern of cultures has been a degeneration from monotheism into polytheism (reflecting the natural world where, in physics, things always degenerate from a high level of order into a more chaotic state). Egypt is a perfect example originally having Khepera (Neb-er-tcher) as a single, self-existent, all powerful Creator God. The other Egyptian 'gods' seem to be the ancient Egyptian equivalent of Shen who, over time, were collected into a pantheon of 'gods' that we know today. We see a similar transition in ancient India. The Greeks (according to Herodotus) took all their gods from Egypt. Prior to that, they had a Titan named Ieptos who was a 'go-between' of sorts between God (singular) and Mankind.

Anyway, my point with all that is that it seems that, if you go back far enough, most advanced cultures seem to share a primary core monotheistic belief before degenerating into animism or polytheism. Vietnam and China look to have followed this same pattern.

^ first of all please don't incorporate the Catholic language into our original Vietnamese tradition The phrase "Duc Chua Troi" is a recent term made up by Vietnamese Catholic to call the God in their religion. The phrase Duc Chua Troi never existed in Vietnamese language before.

Secondly the culture of the ancient Viet go back many thousand years ago, long before the Chinese had any influence on Vietnamese. Long period of Chinese domination had swept out many aspects of the original Viet culture that no Vietnamese today remembers.

Yes no one knows for sure what the images on đông sơn drums are supposed to represent, everything is just "theories" or "hypothesis" ~ but yes there is some basis for the theory that ancient Viet used to worship the sun god based on these images.

Thanks for the sale pitch buddy save it for your Sunday sermon.
Everyone to his own belief. It's no point to be biased in religion.
Just because one believes in one way does not immediately undermine the other way.
Only a brain-washed religious fool places his religion above other's.

In my own family my father is Buddhist but my mother is Catholic.
I see this A LOT in Vietnamese culture what I CANNOT understand is how they come together like that.
I'm not going to sit here and debate one or the other or try and persuade anyone of anything because everyone has their own presuppositions.

BUT if you sit and just think for a second and look at the world, look at the universe ..... think about it! Look at how small we are compared to the entire WHOLE of the world. Wouldn't that mean something much GREATER than us created it? Not to mention if you just take a look at us, aren't we special compared to other creatures on this earth? We can think, our organs/bodies...just everything about us works in sync all together. One can not survive without the other. If something or someone created something SO BEAUTIFUL like us and this earth that we live on doesn't it mean that there is a wonderful creator that made it ALL?

To Buddhism: I've watched tons of Chinese movies/dramas while growing up. I mean TONS but if there is really reincarnation where do all the NEW souls come from if there are more and more ppl everyday? (i've always wondered that)

To Catholicism: Why do I have to tell my sins to a mortal man when all I need to do is tell my sins to the ONE and HOLY God? I don't believe that I need to tell my sins to anyone but Him.

Another small thing.......my friend told me once....
1. If God does exist and you believe in Him then you go to Heaven.
2. If God doesn't exist and you believe in Him then nothing happens.
3. If God doesn't exist and you don't believe in Him then nothing happens.
4. BUT If God does exist and you don't believe in Him then you spend an eternity in hell.
just thought it was semi-funny....

A few resources or books I ENCOURAGE and CHALLENGE everyone to read:
Lee Strobel - The Case for Faith
Lee Strobel - The Case for Christ

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a God out there and that He is an amazing creator!
I believe that Vietnam is in need of Him and that more people need to know that He is there.

NOTE: I am sorry if I offended anyone, I did not mean to offend anyone but I felt as if I needed to speak my mind.
FYI: For me, Christianity is not a religion it is a way of life.

Buddha is not a god, he is a teacher of buddhism...remind you

I wanna join this religion! I am wondering what's on the altar to be worshipped

right on brother

I don't believe in any kind of God. To me God is just a fictional character made up by ancient people to teach mankind morals. It kinda annoys me when many people around me try to get me to believe in some kind of imaginary God. My whole family is Buddhist but I'm not even sure if Buddha is real. I don't believe in reincarnation ~ to me when you die, you die, that's it.

to the OP, Buddha (phật) and "ông trời" are characters of different religions. Buddha is from Buddhism which originated in India. Ông trời is from a religion (or should I say just a "belief") of Viet people in the olden time. Ông trời is similar to Ngọc Hoàng Thượng Đế in Taoism. Historically Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism are the three most influential religions in Viet society. The three religions co-exist without conflicting each other. It is no surprise to see Viet folks combine Buddha with ông trời or ngọc hoàng thượng đế.

to kittiee: Trust me, You can't really learn about Buddhism from watching Chinese Kung Fu movies The God you're talking about is from the Western society. It is a belief from the Western society. You can believe in him if you want, but keep in mind that we Vietnamese have OUR OWN belief also. I don't see why the Viet folks should give up their belief to adopt a Western one. I don't see why Vietnamese should stop worshiping our ancestors and start to worship a God whom we never knew of, never did anything for us. Our people, our nation have existed for 4000 years without that "God" from Christianity, and we've been fine. I don't like religions that force mankind to believe in one sole Superior Being, one sole Creator, and if you don't believe in that sole Superior Being, you go to Hell. How does that make any sense? Buddhism could flourish in Vietnamese society for 2000 years because it doesn't force mankind to believe in one sole Superior Being. It allows people freedom to worship gods from other religions, and no one is going to Hell unless that person did something really bad. No offense but Christianity is a selfish religion in my opinion because it doesn't recognize the existence of other religions in the world, it doesn't recognize the diversity of mankind's belief.

I agree.

That's why you have to make the most of life and enjoy the present time with friends and family because heaven is a place on Earth.

Xixon is my GOD. She's an angel from the sky.

From my understanding, Buddhism doesn't encourage the existence nor does it denies the existence of a god. Buddha himself isn't a god but of devine entity because he is the enlightened one. In a way, it all really depends on what you assume to be a god. Use your own referrences to create yourself a god, or if you don't need to don't worry about what others think.

^ In addition. If you cannot use your own references to create yourself a god, you can always borrow the Roman Cathloic God.

Vietnamese God:



We all should learn from his teachings. Greatest man in Vietnamese history.

When one is godless it is sad. When one thinks his god is the only god, seeking to impose upon others his faith, it is really sad. Religious fanatics do more harm than good on this earth.

is Troi related to Mongolian Tengri, Turkish Tenri, Chinese Tian, Cantonese Teng, and Sumerian Dingir?

MandingJinZhanShi, Troi means "sky or heaven" in Vietnamese language, so yes it'd be equivalent to Chinese Tian, Cantonese Teng, Sumerian Dingir etc. I believe that in every culture people believe in some kind of supreme being from the above world and call "sky" or "heaven".

Only if you need to rely on a self-created god to begin with.

Can you please ellaborate on why?

Those who are disappointed with life will pray, hope and await for a better after-life in heaven, while those who are content will continue their heavenly existence here on Earth.

Can't agree with you more on this.

To me there is nothing wrong with being atheist. It's part of your belief. Some people believe there is a God. Some people don't. It's your right to believe that there is no God.

I respectfully disagree w/ you, mr. Tinman. There are people out there who thanks their god every day for their good lives and good fortune on earth. I am not a Christian, and seldom go to the Buddist temple here in America.

@ Xigon
There is nothing wrong w/ being an atheist. Faith is something one feels in one's heart. It seems like when talking about god, you always gear it toward the Roman god as if the Catholics get patent on the word. God is somebeing out there greater than you, regardless what religious denominations one is in. Each religion created its god according to its interpretations of its own culture where the religion originated from. Different culture calls him by different name. Do you practice ancestor worshipping? or ever burn incenses at any temple? or even go for fortune telling (ddi xin xam)? Done any of that mean that you are not an atheist. You believe in something.

@ Goombaking
Have you ever lost a loved one after a long illness during which time modern medicine has failed you again and again?! Those dark moments in life is when one most need a being like god. Money can't buy everything, you know.

You can reject religion and creationism but still can believe in evolution and God in general.

If HCM is Vietnamese god then who Vladimir Lenin and Karl Marx will be? God of Vietnamese God?

HCM and Mao's God(s)/Savior(s):

"The Gods of my God"!!! Sad, isn't it?!

I have no problem with people believing in God and religion. Some people need God and religion in their lives while some don't, which is perfectly ok too.

Do I believe in a supreme being or force that created the original universe? Sure I do....mother nature.

Do I believe in divine intervention or God's involvement in answering prayers, worships, or performing miracles? Nope.

Do I believe in creationism? Nope.

Do I believe in evolution? Yes.

Basically, I'd assume that God is the same in every monotheist religion, it's just the particular way you approach him, i.e. through Jesus, Muhammad, the Pope, or yourself.

My God is the VNCH duo Ngo Dinh Diem and Nguyen Van Thieu, they were the most superior of all human beings

If we really had God (God) in our culture then we wouldn't be in this $hitty mess.

Buddhism/Buddha sees the inherent danger of pointing to some God or some representative of God as the absolute ruler, as absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Life is like an onion there are many layers of truth. Buddha himself is not a simple human being. If you research further, he is ancient as time immemorial.

The basic thing is God is like Love. You can not simply let someone tell you about. You have to experience it to know. Buddhism encourages you to be the light unto thyself. If you don't, you will be insecure and can be led astray by someone calling themselves God's representative or God. History has thousands of examples where people calling their God to do many many bad things. Therefore, Buddhism says you must take the responsibility for yourselves and not blaming God or anyone else. Thus, Buddha removes the mention of God and God's representatives altogether. But he does mention it.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

In short, Buddha makes you responsible for yourselves by removing the blames, the excuses of God and his representatives altogether. Be the light unto oneself, then you will know God and love.

The question is what is God and where is God; not is there a God/Gods?

Um... If he's God. How come he's dead? Did you photoshop his pic? In the one I saw he came with a tail, horns and a pitch fork!