QUOTE (擅曲調之 @ Dec 28 2004, 09:20 AM)
unregistered user is a good example of someone who knows how to read but can't think at all
Yet you can neither read nor think. In fact, your replies suggest that you lack a brain for that matter.
QUOTE (擅曲調之 @ Dec 28 2004, 09:20 AM)
1. rape and pillage as a means of spreading genes? lets see the unlikeline3ss of that affecting a population already 50 million in size (Northern China at the time oif the Mongol invasions)
50 million for northern China? Were they all "Han"? Give me a primary or reliable secondary source that supports such a number.
QUOTE (擅曲調之 @ Dec 28 2004, 09:20 AM)
A. the brutality of the rape itself, especially in that era, might just kill the girl altogether
B. Mongols were known to kill the girl right after the rape. by the way, death means no chance of pregnancy
C. females can only become pregnant during a specific cycle during the month. the Mongols did not time their raids to coincide with this =P
D. so basically the only girls that would have Han/Mongol hybrids are the ones who survived the rape itself, were not killed by their rapist, and perfectly coincided with their particular cycle of the month
Oh really? You lived in the 13th century AD and was a direct eye-witness? Or did you just pull that out of your @$$? I think you fit the latter description more.
Do show me primary sources that back up your assumptions and also quote directly from them since it now appears to be unfounded bull$hit.
QUOTE (擅曲調之 @ Dec 28 2004, 09:20 AM)
E. furthermore, there are no identifiable "Mongol Genes", however there is an identifiable Sinid Y chromosome...which is actually found in some Mongols.
Source?
QUOTE (擅曲調之 @ Dec 28 2004, 09:20 AM)
other nomad groups
2. Qidan=first of all, they only controlled the 16 prefectures south of the great wall, they did not control a large chunk of northern China. and once again, they did not intermarry with Hans. Yes, its true that SOME Qidan sinicized and were then thrown into the general northern Population (which is due to the Mongol Yuan law of the second tier of society which included all Northern Han,all NuZhen in Huabei, and Sinicized QiDan but the overwhelming majority did not. in fact, history remembers the Qidan as fiercely resistant to Sinicization much like Mongols.
And I never contested the fact that the Liao Khitans controlled only parts of northern China.
QUOTE (擅曲調之 @ Dec 28 2004, 09:20 AM)
A. Anthropologists have found through genetic testing that the modern Daur 达斡尔 group of present day Inner Mongolia are the Qidan's closest relatives, so much for your idiotic claim that Northerners are Sinicized Qidan
Are you blind or unable to comprehend? When have I claimed that the "Northerners are Sinicized Qidan"?
This is what I had posted:
During the Song Dynasties, the Khitans (a proto-Mongol/Tungusic people) ruled northern China for a while, then came the Jurchens (Tungusic).
All I was suggesting was that there was certainly a possibility that at least some of the Khitans were sinicized and eventually mixed with the "Han" population in the 16 prefectures, meaning that some Han were at least mixed with the Khitans. There was nothing wrong in saying that many Hans (especially northern Han) contain partial blood from steppe nomads since I never indicated that "many" is necessarily proportional to the total population of Hans, given that the population of the PRC today is almost 2 billion. You must be fu-king retarded (which I don't doubt) to think that I proposed that all "Hans" contained Khitan blood, which I never claimed.
QUOTE (擅曲調之 @ Dec 28 2004, 09:20 AM)
3. NuZhen=yes, LOTs of NuZhen became Sinicized into the general Northern Population but not all of them as the claim goes. NuZhen are Manchu ancestors. if the majority of NuZhen assimilated into the general Northern Han population, then the 20 million member Manchu nation would not have arisen shortly thereafter.
It is generally agreed that the Jurchens were the ancestors of the Manchus but it is actually unknown as to what language the Jurchens actually spoke and some anthropological studies in Beijing have shown that they were largely assimilated during Yuan and Ming times (consult warhead for this). Furthermore, I never claimed that all Tungusic peoples moved out of Manchuria and mixed with the "Han" population and it is possible that the Manchus may have descended from other Tungusic peoples living in Manchuria at the time if the theory that they weren't the descendants of the Jurchens is true.
In addition, it was obvious some non-Han adopted Han names and called themselves Han. Many members of the Tang aristocracy were mixed with the Xianbei while Tang Tai Zong relocated 100,000 Tujue to serve for the Tang when he defeated them in 630 AD. You must be stupid if you think that all those 100,000 Tujue just died off or maintained some sort of homogenous caste since there isn't any record of such. Furthermore, it was quite likely that at least some would marry a Han since they served under the Tang and became sinicized themselves. That is not to say that all Han would contain Tujue blood but that some Han people would quite likely carry some of their genes. There are various cases of this sort in Chinese history.
As stated in 直隸總督's post, the 1206 census of the Jin had 48,490,000 people of which about 6 million were considered Jurchens. It is quite likely that the remaining 42,490,000 people that were classifed as "Han" could contain Jurchens as well as Khitans or maybe even some descendants of the Shatuo Tujue of the 5 Dynasties period since they would often call themselves Han on the basis that they adopted Han customs and dress, which indicates that they didn't necessarily have to contain Han blood to be considered Han. In fact, the Jin dynasty was quite supportive of sinicization. As for their numbers, we wouldn't know since the primary sources don't actually give any figure regarding the number of "Han converts".
QUOTE (擅曲調之 @ Dec 28 2004, 09:20 AM)
A. plus, despite what southern centric types say, the population of Northern China never dropped below 50 million during the Jin Dynsaty. therefore, 500,000 nuzhen versus 50 million Han, you do the math
Where did you get 500,000 Jurchens? Source? And just because the "Han" outnumbered the Jurchens, does that necessarily mean that no "Han" would contain Jurchen blood? You seem to be implying that. All I meant when I said that the genetic makeup of the Han population was mixed is that the Han population would contain descendants of the sinicized non-Han that either mixed or didn't mixed with some Han people, yet they still refer to themselves as Han perhaps being ignorant that there is a possibility that some of their ancestors could've been a non-Han. Since we aren't sure of the actual number of these descendants among the Han population since it is apparent that not every person that referred to himself/herself as a Han had DNA testing, it would be unsafe to assume that the entire northern Han population were homogenous and ethnically "pure Han". You seem to be propogating that unfounded assumption, and, if you do, all I can say is that you are indeed a fu-king idiotic extreme Chinese nationalist not worth debating with on a professional level.
And you are forgetting that the "Han" population at the time of the Jurchen Jin dynasty contained people that were descended from earlier non-Han peoples that would include groups from the Five Hu and Eastern Jin - North/South Dynasties Period and later peoples like some sinicized Ashina Tujue, Shatuo Tujue, and sinicized Khitan (again you can't just idiotically assume that they never mixed with some Han and all died off).
