When will Vietnam apologize to the Cambodians? I mean the Vietnamese government continuously requested an official apology from the Chinese government for its invasion of Vietnam before the normalization of relations between the two countries. What about the Vietnamese invasion and occupation of Cambodia and the Vietnamese illegal use of Cambodian territory to fight the Americans and the Vietnamese support of the Khmer Rouge takeover of Cambodia in 1975?
□ Vietnam illegally used Cambodia to fight the Americans.
□ Vietnam created the Khmer Rouge (In 1954, over one thousand Khmer Rouge members stayed in exile in North Vietnam), supported the Khmer Rouge, and helped the Khmer Rouge take over Cambodia in 1975. In 1965 Pol Pot made a visit of several months duration to North Vietnam.
□ Vietnam chose not to eliminate the fighting capability of the Khmer Rouge forces and even allowed a considerable number to retreat to their traditional strongholds in the Cardamom Mountains (mountain hideout).
□ Vietnamese foreign minister Nguyen Co Thach said that the goal of the Vietnamese forces was not to liberate the Cambodians from the Khmer Rouge regime but to stop the Chinese presence in Cambodia.
□ Vietnam used the Soviet help to invade Cambodia.
□Vietnam illegally occupied Cambodia for 10 long years.
□Vietnam invaded Cambodia only to expand its colonialism and to materialize the concept of the Indochina Union and to install a replacement regime in Cambodia and to assume control over Hun Sens government and the communist party.
□If Vietnams act was to liberate the Cambodians from the jaw of death, then why was Vietnam opposed by the United States, the free world faction, China, and ASEAN?
□Vietnam only withdrew from Cambodia after the collapse of its main backer which was the Soviet Union.
□Vietnam exploited Cambodias timber and fish resources worth hundreds of millions of dollars in eastern Cambodia and the great lake.
□Vietnam allowed illegal Vietnamese immigrants to settle in key economic areas in Cambodia.
□The Vietnamese communists reneged on the border agreements they had made with Cambodia in 1970.
□Vietnamese troops made Cambodias hunger problem worse, and more Cambodians died as a result of a famine across the whole country.
□ Vietnamese troops systematically pillaged Cambodian shops, homes, and Buddhist temples. They took back to Hanoi machines, household appliances, furniture, Buddha heads, and donated rice intended for Cambodian refugees.
□ Vietnamese troops outnumbered the Khmer Rouge 7 to 1, so how come the Khmer Rouge always managed to swoop down at night and attacked the defenseless Cambodian village inhabitants under the protection of the mighty Vietnamese?
□ Vietnam did not allowed the international large-scale relief efforts of food into Cambodia to help the starving Cambodians. One Western diplomat said, “The Vietnamese simply don't give a damn about what happens to the Cambodians."
□Vietnamese troops laid hundreds of thousands of landmines in Cambodia.
□Under the Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia, torture and arbitrary executions remained a feature of life for many Cambodians. The worst abuse of human rights was perpetrated by the colossal “K-5 Plan”, the intention of which was to seal the border to Thailand by a combination of deforestation, dykes, canals, strategic fences, and minefields. This ambition caused thousands of deaths: out of the labour force of some 120.000 used for the realization of this plan, over 50.000 died because of working in some of the worst terrain in Cambodia, containing not only dangerous minefields (laid by the Khmer Rouge), but also thick forests, full of malaria.
Reference Sources:
A Country Study: Cambodia
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/khtoc.html
The Great Powers and the Tragedy of Cambodia
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Ch...handa-con3.html
Cambodia: A burden of the past
http://www.asiasociety.org/publications/cambodia/burden.html
Deathwatch: Cambodia
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...46349-8,00.html
Indochina Database: Cambodia
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_411.shtml
Full Version: Should Vietnam apologize to the Cambodians?
no. you not worthy enough.
Just Apologize? should pay back. By the way, I just want all VN leave Cambodia. But absolutely hard.
QUOTE(preahvihear @ Aug 7 2008, 01:05 PM) 
When will Vietnam apologize to the Cambodians? I mean the Vietnamese government continuously requested an official apology from the Chinese government for its invasion of Vietnam before the normalization of relations between the two countries. What about the Vietnamese invasion and occupation of Cambodia and the Vietnamese illegal use of Cambodian territory to fight the Americans and the Vietnamese support of the Khmer Rouge takeover of Cambodia in 1975?
□ Vietnam illegally used Cambodia to fight the Americans.
□ Vietnam created the Khmer Rouge (In 1954, over one thousand Khmer Rouge members stayed in exile in North Vietnam), supported the Khmer Rouge, and helped the Khmer Rouge take over Cambodia in 1975. In 1965 Pol Pot made a visit of several months duration to North Vietnam.
□ Vietnam chose not to eliminate the fighting capability of the Khmer Rouge forces and even allowed a considerable number to retreat to their traditional strongholds in the Cardamom Mountains (mountain hideout).
□ Vietnamese foreign minister Nguyen Co Thach said that the goal of the Vietnamese forces was not to liberate the Cambodians from the Khmer Rouge regime but to stop the Chinese presence in Cambodia.
□ Vietnam used the Soviet help to invade Cambodia.
□Vietnam illegally occupied Cambodia for 10 long years.
□Vietnam invaded Cambodia only to expand its colonialism and to materialize the concept of the Indochina Union and to install a replacement regime in Cambodia and to assume control over Hun Sens government and the communist party.
□If Vietnams act was to liberate the Cambodians from the jaw of death, then why was Vietnam opposed by the United States, the free world faction, China, and ASEAN?
□Vietnam only withdrew from Cambodia after the collapse of its main backer which was the Soviet Union.
□Vietnam exploited Cambodias timber and fish resources worth hundreds of millions of dollars in eastern Cambodia and the great lake.
□Vietnam allowed illegal Vietnamese immigrants to settle in key economic areas in Cambodia.
□The Vietnamese communists reneged on the border agreements they had made with Cambodia in 1970.
□Vietnamese troops made Cambodias hunger problem worse, and more Cambodians died as a result of a famine across the whole country.
□ Vietnamese troops systematically pillaged Cambodian shops, homes, and Buddhist temples. They took back to Hanoi machines, household appliances, furniture, Buddha heads, and donated rice intended for Cambodian refugees.
□ Vietnamese troops outnumbered the Khmer Rouge 7 to 1, so how come the Khmer Rouge always managed to swoop down at night and attacked the defenseless Cambodian village inhabitants under the protection of the mighty Vietnamese?
□ Vietnam did not allowed the international large-scale relief efforts of food into Cambodia to help the starving Cambodians. One Western diplomat said, “The Vietnamese simply don't give a damn about what happens to the Cambodians."
□Vietnamese troops laid hundreds of thousands of landmines in Cambodia.
□Under the Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia, torture and arbitrary executions remained a feature of life for many Cambodians. The worst abuse of human rights was perpetrated by the colossal “K-5 Plan”, the intention of which was to seal the border to Thailand by a combination of deforestation, dykes, canals, strategic fences, and minefields. This ambition caused thousands of deaths: out of the labour force of some 120.000 used for the realization of this plan, over 50.000 died because of working in some of the worst terrain in Cambodia, containing not only dangerous minefields (laid by the Khmer Rouge), but also thick forests, full of malaria.
Reference Sources:
A Country Study: Cambodia
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/khtoc.html
The Great Powers and the Tragedy of Cambodia
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Ch...handa-con3.html
Cambodia: A burden of the past
http://www.asiasociety.org/publications/cambodia/burden.html
Deathwatch: Cambodia
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...46349-8,00.html
Indochina Database: Cambodia
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_411.shtml
□ Vietnam illegally used Cambodia to fight the Americans.
□ Vietnam created the Khmer Rouge (In 1954, over one thousand Khmer Rouge members stayed in exile in North Vietnam), supported the Khmer Rouge, and helped the Khmer Rouge take over Cambodia in 1975. In 1965 Pol Pot made a visit of several months duration to North Vietnam.
□ Vietnam chose not to eliminate the fighting capability of the Khmer Rouge forces and even allowed a considerable number to retreat to their traditional strongholds in the Cardamom Mountains (mountain hideout).
□ Vietnamese foreign minister Nguyen Co Thach said that the goal of the Vietnamese forces was not to liberate the Cambodians from the Khmer Rouge regime but to stop the Chinese presence in Cambodia.
□ Vietnam used the Soviet help to invade Cambodia.
□Vietnam illegally occupied Cambodia for 10 long years.
□Vietnam invaded Cambodia only to expand its colonialism and to materialize the concept of the Indochina Union and to install a replacement regime in Cambodia and to assume control over Hun Sens government and the communist party.
□If Vietnams act was to liberate the Cambodians from the jaw of death, then why was Vietnam opposed by the United States, the free world faction, China, and ASEAN?
□Vietnam only withdrew from Cambodia after the collapse of its main backer which was the Soviet Union.
□Vietnam exploited Cambodias timber and fish resources worth hundreds of millions of dollars in eastern Cambodia and the great lake.
□Vietnam allowed illegal Vietnamese immigrants to settle in key economic areas in Cambodia.
□The Vietnamese communists reneged on the border agreements they had made with Cambodia in 1970.
□Vietnamese troops made Cambodias hunger problem worse, and more Cambodians died as a result of a famine across the whole country.
□ Vietnamese troops systematically pillaged Cambodian shops, homes, and Buddhist temples. They took back to Hanoi machines, household appliances, furniture, Buddha heads, and donated rice intended for Cambodian refugees.
□ Vietnamese troops outnumbered the Khmer Rouge 7 to 1, so how come the Khmer Rouge always managed to swoop down at night and attacked the defenseless Cambodian village inhabitants under the protection of the mighty Vietnamese?
□ Vietnam did not allowed the international large-scale relief efforts of food into Cambodia to help the starving Cambodians. One Western diplomat said, “The Vietnamese simply don't give a damn about what happens to the Cambodians."
□Vietnamese troops laid hundreds of thousands of landmines in Cambodia.
□Under the Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia, torture and arbitrary executions remained a feature of life for many Cambodians. The worst abuse of human rights was perpetrated by the colossal “K-5 Plan”, the intention of which was to seal the border to Thailand by a combination of deforestation, dykes, canals, strategic fences, and minefields. This ambition caused thousands of deaths: out of the labour force of some 120.000 used for the realization of this plan, over 50.000 died because of working in some of the worst terrain in Cambodia, containing not only dangerous minefields (laid by the Khmer Rouge), but also thick forests, full of malaria.
Reference Sources:
A Country Study: Cambodia
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/khtoc.html
The Great Powers and the Tragedy of Cambodia
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Ch...handa-con3.html
Cambodia: A burden of the past
http://www.asiasociety.org/publications/cambodia/burden.html
Deathwatch: Cambodia
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...46349-8,00.html
Indochina Database: Cambodia
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_411.shtml
it is tragic. but it is too sad that khmers dont do anything about it. instead they want to fight thailand,the one who always help them, over a rotten prasart.
i guess khmers are too scared of the vietnamese, huh?
the majority of accusations you posted are wrong, but anyway I'm not in the mood of arguing over this again, we're gonna go round and round in the same circle of argument again.
As I said in Viet Chat, Cambodia would be much better off if Cambodian focus on solving the problems that the country is having instead of blaming everything on neighboring countries like Vietnam and Thailand.
As I said in Viet Chat, Cambodia would be much better off if Cambodian focus on solving the problems that the country is having instead of blaming everything on neighboring countries like Vietnam and Thailand.
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Aug 7 2008, 01:58 PM)
the majority of accusations you posted are wrong, but anyway I'm not in the mood of arguing over this again, we're gonna go round and round in the same circle of argument again.
As I said in Viet Chat, Cambodia would be much better off if Cambodian focus on solving the problems that the country is having instead of blaming everything on neighboring countries like Vietnam and Thailand.
As I said in Viet Chat, Cambodia would be much better off if Cambodian focus on solving the problems that the country is having instead of blaming everything on neighboring countries like Vietnam and Thailand.
you damn right. khmers wont lift their fingers. they good at using tongues.
QUOTE(AnAttA @ Aug 7 2008, 01:12 AM)
no. you not worthy enough.
Actually, AnAtta, Vietnam was a real pest to your Thailand in the 1980's as well.
That was why Thailand formed an alliance with the Khmer Rouge. 
Here goes:Underclared war with Thailand
□After occupying Cambodia, Vietnam continued the politics of antagonizing Thailand. The Vietnamese then started supporting a communist opposition in Thailand, that was soon to grow to force of some 10.000 fighters. For the following 20 years Thailand therefore became engaged in a protracted anti-guerrilla campaign inside and outside its borders, the first serious incident occurring on 23 June 1980 when the Vietnamese attacked the Aranyaprathet area. Vietnamese troops in Cambodia crossed the border in Thailand and clashed with Thai troops, killing more than 30 Thai soldiers and wounding some 100 others. Vietnamese was reported to stay in Thai territory for about 10 hours.
□By 1982 the Vietnamese Air Force was sometimes operating near and even over the Thai border: especially the Vietnamese An-26 transports, equipped as ELINT/SIGINT-gatherers were used to track operations of the Thai Army activity.
□In April 1983 the Vietnamese attacked the Aranyaprathet area again.
□In late March 1984, the Vietnamese troops entered Thai territory of Sisaket province.
□In January 1985, the Vietnamese troops spilled over the Thai border and only withdrew a few days later.
□By January 1987, the Vietnamese decided to change their tactics and start engaging Thais in a conventional war. They decided to take and hold portions of Thai territory. By January 1988 they therefore occupied the Chong Bok mountain pass, south of Ubon.
□The Thais chose to form an alliance with the Khmer Rouge (based in Thailand), hoping to please China and destabilize the Vietnamese. Under Sino-Thai patronage, uncontested by the United States, the Khmer Rouge rebuilt its army, attracted international support (e.g., from the United Nations), and waged war against the Vietnamese.
Reference Sources:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_411.shtml
http://www.geocities.com/khmerchronology/1980.htm
http://www.asiasociety.org/publications/cambodia/burden.html
QUOTE(AnAttA @ Aug 7 2008, 02:05 PM)
you damn right. khmers wont lift their fingers. they good at using tongues.
They hate Vietnam but if the border conflict w Thailand go more serious they wish their ex master help them
On the other way around when they has conflict with Vietnam during late 70s they wish to get help from Thailand.
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Aug 7 2008, 01:58 AM)
the majority of accusations you posted are wrong, but anyway I'm not in the mood of arguing over this again, we're gonna go round and round in the same circle of argument again. As I said in Viet Chat, Cambodia would be much better off if Cambodian focus on solving the problems that the country is having instead of blaming everything on neighboring countries like Vietnam and Thailand.
You can speak your irresponsible opinion all you want, but the information in my post is obtained from these written sources below. So please don't say that it is mine. The information was already written by foreign authors. In addition, where do I blame Thailand in the post? It is only right that Vietnam needs to own up to its atrocities against the people and land of Cambodia. First Vietnam needs to apologize and then they need to come in and clear the landmines their troops laid in the 1980's. For crying out loud, Vietnam still continues to support the Khmer Rouge figures such as Chea Sim, Heng Samrin, and Hun Sen. These were the same commanders who led raids into Vietnam itself. Remember, Vietnam never wanted to "liberate" the Cambodians from their friends the Khmer Rouge at all. This fact is proven by the Vietnamese foreign minister Nguyen Co Thach's statement itself. So check it out! In addition, the mighty Vietnamese troops took over Cambodia in just 2 weeks. That was very impressive, but they did very little to destroy the Khmer Rouge troops. Why was that? I think you know the answer already.
Reference Sources:
A Country Study: Cambodia
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/khtoc.html
The Great Powers and the Tragedy of Cambodia
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Ch...handa-con3.html
Cambodia: A burden of the past
http://www.asiasociety.org/publications/cambodia/burden.html
Deathwatch: Cambodia
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...46349-8,00.html
Indochina Database: Cambodia
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_411.shtml
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Aug 7 2008, 10:58 AM)
the majority of accusations you posted are wrong, but anyway I'm not in the mood of arguing over this again, we're gonna go round and round in the same circle of argument again.
As I said in Viet Chat, Cambodia would be much better off if Cambodian focus on solving the problems that the country is having instead of blaming everything on neighboring countries like Vietnam and Thailand.
As I said in Viet Chat, Cambodia would be much better off if Cambodian focus on solving the problems that the country is having instead of blaming everything on neighboring countries like Vietnam and Thailand.
i'm quite interested hearing your rebuttals on those charges but i agree on you though that they should not blame everything on their neighbours although some of their problems might have an underlying causes on everything too.
QUOTE(Pogpog @ Aug 7 2008, 12:17 AM)
i'm quite interested hearing your rebuttals on those charges but i agree on you though that they should not blame everything on their neighbours although some of their problems might have an underlying causes on everything too.
I've been here long enough to understand the mentality of some people here. At first I argued with them a lot over issues similar to this, but later I got tired because very few of them seem to listen to me.
I'm sorry I'm not in the mood to battle these people again
everything would not have happened if khmer people put their country's interest in front . they got nobody to blame.
they should look into future. i believe that khmens are smart and working hard people.
they can become an industralized nation like south korea in less than 20 years.
but first, they need to get rid of hun sen.
he feed you national pride, while he taking all the money.
they should look into future. i believe that khmens are smart and working hard people.
they can become an industralized nation like south korea in less than 20 years.
but first, they need to get rid of hun sen.
he feed you national pride, while he taking all the money.
QUOTE(AnAttA @ Aug 7 2008, 02:24 AM)
everything would not have happened if khmer people put their country's interest in front . they got nobody to blame.
they should look into future. i believe that khmens are smart and working hard people.
they can become an industralized nation like south korea in less than 20 years.
but first, they need to get rid of hun sen.
he feed you national pride, while he taking all the money.
they should look into future. i believe that khmens are smart and working hard people.
they can become an industralized nation like south korea in less than 20 years.
but first, they need to get rid of hun sen.
he feed you national pride, while he taking all the money.
Wow, AnAtta, very impressive comment.
Thank you for giving Cambodia a chance to grow and develop. Tell your mighty invincible Thai troops to not cross any further into the Cambodia territority illegally ever again. Tell the Thai troopers to return home and practice their ancient Muy Thai fighting skills in their homeland. They don't need to show it off to the Cambodians. 
QUOTE(preahvihear @ Aug 7 2008, 02:30 PM)
Wow, AnAtta, very impressive comment. Thank you for giving Cambodia a chance to grow and develop. Tell your mighty invincible Thai troops to not cross any further into the Cambodia territority illegally ever again. Tell the Thai troopers to return home and practice their ancient Muy Thai fighting skills in their homeland. They don't need to show it off to the Cambodians.
Thank you for giving Cambodia a chance to grow and develop. Tell your mighty invincible Thai troops to not cross any further into the Cambodia territority illegally ever again. Tell the Thai troopers to return home and practice their ancient Muy Thai fighting skills in their homeland. They don't need to show it off to the Cambodians. too bad. i have no control over the troops. if i did, i would wipe cambodia out of the world map.
i kid. i kid.
Sometime, I don actually know what political game that the leaders of Khmer, Thai and Vietnam are playing. The victims are the innocent people. fu-king bad leaders. 
QUOTE(KhmerLove @ Aug 7 2008, 11:56 AM)
Sometime, I don actually know what political game that the leaders of Khmer, Thai and Vietnam are playing. The victims are the innocent people. fu-king bad leaders.
in the game of chess, they usually call them as pawns...
QUOTE(Pogpog @ Aug 7 2008, 02:17 AM)
i'm quite interested hearing your rebuttals on those charges but i agree on you though that they should not blame everything on their neighbours although some of their problems might have an underlying causes on everything too.
Pogpog, all you need to do is read. A good reference source is Cambodia: A country study. Starting from square one, it was Vietnam that dragged the newly independent Cambodia into the war after World War II.
Here a little timeline for you: (1) In 1953, Cambodia became an independent state. (2) In 1954, Vietnam invaded Cambodia. (3) When North Vietnam and South Vietnam were fighting each other, both troops crossed into Cambodia to use its territory. The Americans also bombed Cambodia because of the North Vietnamese usage of the Cambodian territory. The ones who died and got their lives uprooted and disrupted were the innocent Cambodians. (4) The Khmer Rouge faction was trained, equipped, and supported by the Vietnamese. The North Vietnamese were the ones who helped the Khmer Rouge defeat the pro-American Lon Nol's government. (5) After that, the North Vietnamese fought with the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. (6) The North Vietnamese claimed liberation but they occupied Cambodia for 10 years and they also invaded Thailand as well. So that is the linear story liine.
Urr... for me, I think I had enough of what Thailand did to Cambodia.
I am not saying that Vietnamese does not do anything bad to us, its just that rite now, I'm trying to concentrate on the Thai-Khmer issue.
I am not saying that Vietnamese does not do anything bad to us, its just that rite now, I'm trying to concentrate on the Thai-Khmer issue.
QUOTE(Nikkie_nid @ Aug 7 2008, 03:40 PM)
Urr... for me, I think I had enough of what Thailand did to Cambodia.
I am not saying that Vietnamese does not do anything bad to us, its just that rite now, I'm trying to concentrate on the Thai-Khmer issue.
I am not saying that Vietnamese does not do anything bad to us, its just that rite now, I'm trying to concentrate on the Thai-Khmer issue.
good on you. focus on a rotten prasart instead of yourwhole country. smart move.
now if you have to fight vietnam again, dont come crawling to us.
if the current tones between SEA nations here on AF reflects the real world or majority of the populace, ASEAN will soon disintegrate thereby leaving each individual country to each his own.
aren't you all curious if there's something more sinister manipulating the situation now? pit all of you and eventually the whole South East Asian countries to go against each other throats and the spoils to be picked up by some giant panda?
i know there are still several of you who is actually in each of their own country now and those who aren't still have some connection with the mother country. like me, even if i'm not currently in the Philippines, i'm still aware of what was happening daily in my place (thanks to the internet), ranging from on how my kids were doing to what some of my countrymen is doing.
so maybe if we could all just thresh out this problems like adults and disregards the trolls, then it doesn't need to escalate as i've noticed some of the calmer forumers like nikkie_nid are getting affected already.
there is no need to save face here as this is the internet, we are all faceless here anyway.
aren't you all curious if there's something more sinister manipulating the situation now? pit all of you and eventually the whole South East Asian countries to go against each other throats and the spoils to be picked up by some giant panda?
i know there are still several of you who is actually in each of their own country now and those who aren't still have some connection with the mother country. like me, even if i'm not currently in the Philippines, i'm still aware of what was happening daily in my place (thanks to the internet), ranging from on how my kids were doing to what some of my countrymen is doing.
so maybe if we could all just thresh out this problems like adults and disregards the trolls, then it doesn't need to escalate as i've noticed some of the calmer forumers like nikkie_nid are getting affected already.
there is no need to save face here as this is the internet, we are all faceless here anyway.
QUOTE(AnAttA @ Aug 7 2008, 08:47 PM)
good on you. focus on a rotten prasart instead of yourwhole country. smart move.
now if you have to fight vietnam again, dont come crawling to us.
now if you have to fight vietnam again, dont come crawling to us.
If it's only "a rotten prasart", why doesn't Thailand let it go?
Everything will go back to normal.
Why should Vietnam apologize to Cambodia. Before you guys start flaming and be pissed off at me read the whole post first. I know most of you "EMO" kids don't really do that.
Why should Vietnam, apologize to Cambodia, when Cambodian(POL POT and the Khmer Rouge) who were the aggressor who invade Vietnam in 1977-1978, to take back the land lost to Vietnam. In respond, Vietnam invaded Cambodia. Also people never mention the Khmer Rouge invasion into Thailand in 1978 also. As a Khmer person, I will hold principle over politics. When we are the ruler of the SEA area, we rule it with an iron fist. And when we lose, be a graceful loser.
When Khmer people win back our land in the future, we will not be very merciful to our enemies either. Take the principle to your heart.
When two opponent goes into a ring to fight. What would be the outcome, with the rules that are laid out? Only one person come out of that ring.
The winner keep all and maybe let the loser keep some. Well Khmer people have been losing for a very long time, now. What was our enemie's job, both Siem and Youn? They take our land as trophies.
You should know the answers by now. They win they keep and we lose, we will ask for mercy.
So stop b!tching and moaning and fight for what you think is right. Take actions, not just b!tching about it. Start your own army, then you will know how it feels to fight a disadvantage war. Its not the Thai or the Viet you have to worry about. Its the fellow Khmer. Hun Sen and his soldiers will take you out. Thats how reality work.
If you don't think Thailand have any problem as such, just watch the news and you will understand what humanity is all about. Thailand have the same internal problem too.
However, if you find that what I have to say is very revile and you attack me, then I know that you are not worthy of my respond.
Remember, I am Khmer. We fight like men and we lose like warriors. Stop the b!tching.
Why should Vietnam, apologize to Cambodia, when Cambodian(POL POT and the Khmer Rouge) who were the aggressor who invade Vietnam in 1977-1978, to take back the land lost to Vietnam. In respond, Vietnam invaded Cambodia. Also people never mention the Khmer Rouge invasion into Thailand in 1978 also. As a Khmer person, I will hold principle over politics. When we are the ruler of the SEA area, we rule it with an iron fist. And when we lose, be a graceful loser.
When Khmer people win back our land in the future, we will not be very merciful to our enemies either. Take the principle to your heart.
When two opponent goes into a ring to fight. What would be the outcome, with the rules that are laid out? Only one person come out of that ring.
The winner keep all and maybe let the loser keep some. Well Khmer people have been losing for a very long time, now. What was our enemie's job, both Siem and Youn? They take our land as trophies.
You should know the answers by now. They win they keep and we lose, we will ask for mercy.
So stop b!tching and moaning and fight for what you think is right. Take actions, not just b!tching about it. Start your own army, then you will know how it feels to fight a disadvantage war. Its not the Thai or the Viet you have to worry about. Its the fellow Khmer. Hun Sen and his soldiers will take you out. Thats how reality work.
If you don't think Thailand have any problem as such, just watch the news and you will understand what humanity is all about. Thailand have the same internal problem too.
However, if you find that what I have to say is very revile and you attack me, then I know that you are not worthy of my respond.
Remember, I am Khmer. We fight like men and we lose like warriors. Stop the b!tching.
QUOTE(lemongrass @ Aug 7 2008, 07:24 AM)
Why should Vietnam apologize to Cambodia. Before you guys start flaming and be pissed off at me read the whole post first. I know most of you "EMO" kids don't really do that.
Why should Vietnam, apologize to Cambodia, when Cambodian(POL POT and the Khmer Rouge) who were the aggressor who invade Vietnam in 1977-1978, to take back the land lost to Vietnam. In respond, Vietnam invaded Cambodia. Also people never mention the Khmer Rouge invasion into Thailand in 1978 also. As a Khmer person, I will hold principle over politics. When we are the ruler of the SEA area, we rule it with an iron fist. And when we lose, be a graceful loser.
When Khmer people win back our land in the future, we will not be very merciful to our enemies either. Take the principle to your heart.
When two opponent goes into a ring to fight. What would be the outcome, with the rules that are laid out? Only one person come out of that ring.
The winner keep all and maybe let the loser keep some. Well Khmer people have been losing for a very long time, now. What was our enemie's job, both Siem and Youn? They take our land as trophies.
You should know the answers by now. They win they keep and we lose, we will ask for mercy.
So stop b!tching and moaning and fight for what you think is right. Take actions, not just b!tching about it. Start your own army, then you will know how it feels to fight a disadvantage war. Its not the Thai or the Viet you have to worry about. Its the fellow Khmer. Hun Sen and his soldiers will take you out. Thats how reality work.
If you don't think Thailand have any problem as such, just watch the news and you will understand what humanity is all about. Thailand have the same internal problem too.
However, if you find that what I have to say is very revile and you attack me, then I know that you are not worthy of my respond.
Remember, I am Khmer. We fight like men and we lose like warriors. Stop the b!tching.
Why should Vietnam, apologize to Cambodia, when Cambodian(POL POT and the Khmer Rouge) who were the aggressor who invade Vietnam in 1977-1978, to take back the land lost to Vietnam. In respond, Vietnam invaded Cambodia. Also people never mention the Khmer Rouge invasion into Thailand in 1978 also. As a Khmer person, I will hold principle over politics. When we are the ruler of the SEA area, we rule it with an iron fist. And when we lose, be a graceful loser.
When Khmer people win back our land in the future, we will not be very merciful to our enemies either. Take the principle to your heart.
When two opponent goes into a ring to fight. What would be the outcome, with the rules that are laid out? Only one person come out of that ring.
The winner keep all and maybe let the loser keep some. Well Khmer people have been losing for a very long time, now. What was our enemie's job, both Siem and Youn? They take our land as trophies.
You should know the answers by now. They win they keep and we lose, we will ask for mercy.
So stop b!tching and moaning and fight for what you think is right. Take actions, not just b!tching about it. Start your own army, then you will know how it feels to fight a disadvantage war. Its not the Thai or the Viet you have to worry about. Its the fellow Khmer. Hun Sen and his soldiers will take you out. Thats how reality work.
If you don't think Thailand have any problem as such, just watch the news and you will understand what humanity is all about. Thailand have the same internal problem too.
However, if you find that what I have to say is very revile and you attack me, then I know that you are not worthy of my respond.
Remember, I am Khmer. We fight like men and we lose like warriors. Stop the b!tching.
you just geting old
QUOTE(chakra1 @ Aug 7 2008, 07:44 AM)
you just geting old
How about you? Aren't you going start b!tching too! Wait, you will start your own Khmer army and will reclaim our Empire back. Thank you and good luck. I will be watching.
I like to see you, a Chinese looking person who speak Khmer with an American-Chinese accent issue out orders to your soldiers. They will say "you smell like noodles and have never seen hardships" giving them orders. You need to go and live there and belong to the people. To say that I am old you are incorrect. Ask your parents, why they left Cambodia? Why didn't your father stay back and fight like the rest of the Khmer people did.
Its OK, just keep on b!tching.
QUOTE(lemongrass @ Aug 7 2008, 07:55 AM)
How about you? Aren't you going start b!tching too! Wait, you will start your own Khmer army and will reclaim our Empire back. Thank you and good luck. I will be watching.
I like to see you, a Chinese looking person who speak Khmer with an American-Chinese accent issue out orders to your soldiers. They will say "you smell like noodles and have never seen hardships" giving them orders. You need to go and live there and belong to the people. To say that I am old you are incorrect. Ask your parents, why they left Cambodia? Why didn't your father stay back and fight like the rest of the Khmer people did.
Its OK, just keep on b!tching.
I like to see you, a Chinese looking person who speak Khmer with an American-Chinese accent issue out orders to your soldiers. They will say "you smell like noodles and have never seen hardships" giving them orders. You need to go and live there and belong to the people. To say that I am old you are incorrect. Ask your parents, why they left Cambodia? Why didn't your father stay back and fight like the rest of the Khmer people did.
Its OK, just keep on b!tching.
calm down... my father lose his llife battle the vietkong .....tomorrow is another day
QUOTE(chakra1 @ Aug 7 2008, 08:10 AM)
calm down... my father lose his llife battle the vietkong .....tomorrow is another day
Now we can talk. However, we cannot b!tch about Vietnam apologize to Khmer people or Thai give back Khmer land. It bull $hit. Like I said, warriors do not b!tch and when you lose, take it like a man.
My respect to your late father. My father died in Cambodia too, in 1975. Lots and lots of my Khmer people from Thailand died in Cambodia also. Just in case you don't know.
Why Vietnamese have to apologize Cambodian when Cambodian army invaded Vietnam first and killed lots of Vietnamese ? Vietnam gave troops to Cambodia to ensure that the Khmer Rouge couldn't invade Vn one more time !
But anyway,history is history.The most important is that two countries are in peace and having a good relationship nowadays.Let's split the feud out of your mind !
But anyway,history is history.The most important is that two countries are in peace and having a good relationship nowadays.Let's split the feud out of your mind !
QUOTE(benny123 @ Aug 7 2008, 09:30 AM)
Why Vietnamese have to apologize Cambodian when Cambodian army invaded Vietnam first and killed lots of Vietnamese ? Vietnam gave troops to Cambodia to ensure that the Khmer Rouge couldn't invade Vn one more time !
But anyway,history is history.The most important is that two countries are in peace and having a good relationship nowadays.Let's split the feud out of your mind !
But anyway,history is history.The most important is that two countries are in peace and having a good relationship nowadays.Let's split the feud out of your mind !
ka lon que
QUOTE(lemongrass @ Aug 7 2008, 07:24 AM)
Why should Vietnam, apologize to Cambodia, when Cambodian(POL POT and the Khmer Rouge) who were the aggressor who invade Vietnam in 1977-1978, to take back the land lost to Vietnam. In respond, Vietnam invaded Cambodia. Also people never mention the Khmer Rouge invasion into Thailand in 1978 also. As a Khmer person, I will hold principle over politics. When we are the ruler of the SEA area, we rule it with an iron fist. And when we lose, be a graceful loser. When Khmer people win back our land in the future, we will not be very merciful to our enemies either. Take the principle to your heart. When two opponent goes into a ring to fight. What would be the outcome, with the rules that are laid out? Only one person come out of that ring. The winner keep all and maybe let the loser keep some. Well Khmer people have been losing for a very long time, now. What was our enemie's job, both Siem and Youn? They take our land as trophies. You should know the answers by now. They win they keep and we lose, we will ask for mercy. So stop b!tching and moaning and fight for what you think is right. Take actions, not just b!tching about it. Start your own army, then you will know how it feels to fight a disadvantage war. Its not the Thai or the Viet you have to worry about. Its the fellow Khmer. Hun Sen and his soldiers will take you out. Thats how reality work. However, if you find that what I have to say is very revile and you attack me, then I know that you are not worthy of my respond. Remember, I am Khmer. We fight like men and we lose like warriors. Stop the b!tching.
Hello, Mr. Lemongrass. Please don't worry that we don't understand your point of view. I understand you. Actually, the Khmer don't ever "b!tch" for anything that is not legally and rightfully belonged to them. So according to you, Vietnam should not apologize to Cambodia, because Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge INVADED Vietnam FIRST. So accordingly from your point of view, Vietnam invaded Cambodia in retaliation. This is what I want the world to understand. If your view is correct, then there should not be any threads in the Vietnamese Chat asking Cambodia to "formally thank" Vietnam for the so-called mislabelling of "LIBERATION" or the "Vietnamese sarcrifices" for the Cambodians. And if you want to talk about the first attacks and invasions of Cambodia, then you should talk about the truth that soon after gaining its independence, North Vietnam invaded Cambodia right away. The Thais also invaded Cambodia in the area of Preah Vihear. In addition, it is not legal and all right for the North Vietnamese to invade and use Cambodian territory in the 1960's to fight against the Americans and dragged Cambodia into the fire of war. The point of my post is simply and direct: Vietnam did not come to liberate the Cambodians from the Khmer Rouge government, and the ones who should owe Cambodians the apology is the Vietnamese instigators themselves because they were the original causes.
Regarding the Khmer Rouge's first attack on Vietnam, I would appreciate your source and reasons. Thank you.
QUOTE(preahvihear @ Aug 7 2008, 01:02 PM)
Hello, Mr. Lemongrass. Please don't worry that we don't understand your point of view. I understand you. Actually, the Khmer don't ever "b!tch" for anything that is not legally and rightfully belonged to them. So according to you, Vietnam should not apologize to Cambodia, because Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge INVADED Vietnam FIRST. So accordingly from your point of view, Vietnam invaded Cambodia in retaliation. This is what I want the world to understand. If your view is correct, then there should not be any threads in the Vietnamese Chat asking Cambodia to "formally thank" Vietnam for the so-called mislabelling of "LIBERATION" or the "Vietnamese sarcrifices" for the Cambodians. And if you want to talk about the first attacks and invasions of Cambodia, then you should talk about the truth that soon after gaining its independence, North Vietnam invaded Cambodia right away. The Thais also invaded Cambodia in the area of Preah Vihear. In addition, it is not legal and all right for the North Vietnamese to invade and use Cambodian territory in the 1960's to fight against the Americans and dragged Cambodia into the fire of war. The point of my post is simply and direct: Vietnam did not come to liberate the Cambodians from the Khmer Rouge government, and the ones who should owe Cambodians the apology is the Vietnamese instigators themselves because they were the original causes.
Regarding the Khmer Rouge's first attack on Vietnam, I would appreciate your source and reasons. Thank you.
Regarding the Khmer Rouge's first attack on Vietnam, I would appreciate your source and reasons. Thank you.
You are exactly right, preahvihear. Vietnam didn't give two cents about Cambodians regardless of the knowledge that they knew about the mass genocide. In fact, they were antcipating a "skirmish attack" along the "borders" so that they can take the opportunity to masked the invasion with the word liberation on it. Their actual intention was to take any advantage that they can while Cambodia was weakening and they couldn't pass that oppurtunity up so easily. They tried so hard and long to occupy (colonized) Cambodia at that time but they couldn't because not only was the ousted Khmer Rouge kept figthing back but other Khmer civilians as well took up arms to drive the invaders out of Cambodia. Of course, Khmers were already celebrating with the Viets when they drove the Khmer Rouge to the border of Thailand, but then they went ahead and spoiled it all when they didn't want to leave years after years.
Now some Viets in here wants Cambodia to apologize for what? Viets had a part to do with the Khmer Rouge as much as the Chinese and Americans did. They had even trained some of Pol Pot's soldiers in NV right before the Khmer Rouge came into power. But I'm going to leave that to preahvihear because he can better explain that to you. So no apology, and don't get us Khmer started on demanding an apology or thank you from Vietnamese for letting their ancestor settle in Prey Nokor (Siagon) when they needed us the most when they were being attacked and killed by mongols and Chinese at the time.
QUOTE(Pogpog @ Aug 7 2008, 04:03 AM)
if the current tones between SEA nations here on AF reflects the real world or majority of the populace, ASEAN will soon disintegrate thereby leaving each individual country to each his own. aren't you all curious if there's something more sinister manipulating the situation now? pit all of you and eventually the whole South East Asian countries to go against each other throats and the spoils to be picked up by some giant panda? i know there are still several of you who is actually in each of their own country now and those who aren't still have some connection with the mother country. like me, even if i'm not currently in the Philippines, i'm still aware of what was happening daily in my place (thanks to the internet), ranging from on how my kids were doing to what some of my countrymen is doing. so maybe if we could all just thresh out this problems like adults and disregards the trolls[size="4"][/size], then it doesn't need to escalate as i've noticed some of the calmer forumers like nikkie_nid are getting affected already. there is no need to save face here as this is the internet, we are all faceless here anyway.
Hello again Pogpog. First let me deal with the "troll" issue. If you visit Vietnamese Chat, you will see a thread asking for Cambodians to formally thank the Vietnamese for the Vietnamese "sacrifices" to liberate the Cambodians from the jaw of death. In truth, it is no so. Vietnam only invaded Cambodia to install their own henchmen in power of the country. In addition, how do you plan to "thresh out" the problems like adults? Can you lead by example please because talk is cheap.
QUOTE(Kdaw_Tmaw @ Aug 7 2008, 12:55 PM)
You are exactly right, preahvihear. Vietnam didn't give two cents about Cambodians regardless of the knowledge that they knew about the mass genocide. In fact, they were antcipating a "skirmish attack" along the "borders" so that they can take the opportunity to masked the invasion with the word liberation on it. Their actual intention was to take any advantage that they can while Cambodia was weakening and they couldn't pass that oppurtunity up so easily. They tried so hard and long to occupy (colonized) Cambodia at that time but they couldn't because not only was the ousted Khmer Rouge kept figthing back but other Khmer civilians as well took up arms to drive the invaders out of Cambodia. Of course, Khmers were already celebrating with the Viets when they drove the Khmer Rouge to the border of Thailand, but then they went ahead and spoiled it all when they didn't want to leave years after years. Now some Viets in here wants Cambodia to apologize for what? Viets had a part to do with the Khmer Rouge as much as the Chinese and Americans did. They had even trained some of Pol Pot's soldiers in NV right before the Khmer Rouge came into power. ... So no apology, and don't get us Khmer started on demanding an apology or thank you from Vietnamese for letting their ancestor settle in Prey Nokor (Siagon) when they needed us the most when they were being attacked and killed by mongols and Chinese at the time.
Well said, Tmaw. This kind of information can't be made up at all. For example here is one I found:
Indochina Databse: Cambodia, 1954-1999
By June 1978 Vietnam created a buffer zone to Cambodia, in turn causing furious engagements with the Khmer Rouge, which were to last until December 1978. The Vietnamese used these liberated areas to reorganize and reinforce NUFSK. That was still not all: the regime in Hanoi then decided to expand the buffer zone and destroy the backbone of the Khmer Rouge units deployed along the border. The Vietnamese regime were actually not concerned by the genocidal policy of the Khmer Rouge, but rather with fulfilling their historical ambition of regional domination, as well as stopping the spread of the Chinese influence in Cambodia. Nguyen Co Thach, the then Vietnamese Foreign Minister, later said that, Human rights were not a question; That was THEIR problem we were concerned only with security. China is a historical enemy of Vietnam; at the time China was also a bitter enemy of the Soviet Union. Consequently, Hanoi was to act in accordance with own but also Soviet interests the last was highly important because the USSR was to finance the following adventure.
The history of the communist movement in Cambodia can be divided into six phases: the emergence of the Indochinese Communist Party, whose members were almost exclusively Vietnamese, before World War II; the ten-year struggle for independence from the French, when a separate Cambodian communist party, the Kampuchean (or Khmer) People's Revolutionary Party (KPR), was established under Vietnamese auspices; the period following the Second Party Congress of the KPRP in 1960, when Saloth Sar (Pol Pot after 1976) and other future Khmer Rouge leaders gained control of its apparatus; the revolutionary struggle from the initiation of the Khmer Rouge insurgency in 1967-68 to the fall of the Lon Nol government in April 1975; the Democratic Kampuchea regime, from April 1975 to January 1979; and the period following the Third Party Congress of the KPRP in January 1979, when Hanoi effectively assumed control over Cambodia's government and communist party.
Sources:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_411.shtml
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/khtoc.html
QUOTE(preahvihear @ Aug 7 2008, 12:02 PM)
Hello, Mr. Lemongrass. Please don't worry that we don't understand your point of view. I understand you. Actually, the Khmer don't ever "b!tch" for anything that is not legally and rightfully belonged to them. So according to you, Vietnam should not apologize to Cambodia, because Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge INVADED Vietnam FIRST. So accordingly from your point of view, Vietnam invaded Cambodia in retaliation. This is what I want the world to understand. If your view is correct, then there should not be any threads in the Vietnamese Chat asking Cambodia to "formally thank" Vietnam for the so-called mislabelling of "LIBERATION" or the "Vietnamese sarcrifices" for the Cambodians. And if you want to talk about the first attacks and invasions of Cambodia, then you should talk about the truth that soon after gaining its independence, North Vietnam invaded Cambodia right away. The Thais also invaded Cambodia in the area of Preah Vihear. In addition, it is not legal and all right for the North Vietnamese to invade and use Cambodian territory in the 1960's to fight against the Americans and dragged Cambodia into the fire of war. The point of my post is simply and direct: Vietnam did not come to liberate the Cambodians from the Khmer Rouge government, and the ones who should owe Cambodians the apology is the Vietnamese instigators themselves because they were the original causes.
Regarding the Khmer Rouge's first attack on Vietnam, I would appreciate your source and reasons. Thank you.
Regarding the Khmer Rouge's first attack on Vietnam, I would appreciate your source and reasons. Thank you.
my point is, Cambodia and Khmer people do not owe Vietnam any graditude and Vietnam do not owe Khmer people any apology. The Viets and the Thais are enemies of Cambodia, what do enemies do? They do their job of taking over the weaker state like Cambodia. I agreed, Vietnam did not invade Cambodia for the benefit of Khmer people but for their national territorial gains. This just my opinion, regardless of who start what first. When you lose, take it like a man, and keep the struggle going. When you win, you give vengeful wrath to your enemies.
You sound very patriotic, did you or your parents fought during the war?
Too long to read every post here, and if Vietnam wants a thank you, they should be willing to apologize. See how that comes and go?
Your studies are miguided, and the people who wrote the guides you refered to must have been watching too many films..
The history of this is:
Vietnam invaded Cambodia 1979 in response to attacks by the Khmer Rouge forces into Vietnam.
The Khmer Rouge though itself so great, it could claim territory once held by the ancient khmer civilisation.
Vietnam liberated Cambodia from the Khmer Rouge, and ended the famine and genocidal regime.
Note that the rest of the world left Cambodia to die. The US refused to accept that genocide was taking place.
Vietnam would have allowed food to Cambodia - The UN vetoed food AID to Cambodia, thanks to the US and China.
The United States and the Chinese supported the Khmer Rouge from 1980, and
fed weapons and land mines to Khmer Rouge forces, which kept a civil war raging from 1979 to 1998.
Reagan and Thatcher sent special forces to train the Khmer Rouge, and the Thai military
gave them a phone network, and bases on the Thai border - in exchange for emeralds.
Singapore's prime minister Lee Kwan Yew told the world, khmer rouge genocide was simply 'bad press'
as his ports transhipped weapons to make sure Cambodia is full of land mines to this day.
If you go back further to Vietnam war days, North Vietnam used allies in Cambodia and Laos to attack
America in Vietnam. In return, America dropped more bombs on Cambodia than were dropped throughout the whole of World War II. America killed 600,000 Cambodians, mostly in the countryside. Turning the villagers
into haters of American back Lon Nol Phnom Penh, and joiners to the Khmer Rouge.
On Pol Pot - he was a middle classed intellectual, who worked in Paris, and learned his Communism there.
He went on to take Maoist idealism as his basis - agrigultural planning. Year zero. He never befriended the Soviets, or the Vietnamese. The communist forces of Cambodia that supported the Vietnamese during the Vietnam war were pre Khmer Rouge, and were taken over by the Khmer Rouge when it took power over communist forces in Vietnam post 1975.
The Rouge purged these forces to kill 'soft' elements and threats.
Just as women, children, intellectuals, and anyone who the regime saw as threat, were sent to Tuol Seng to be tortured, confess, and name 50 people who aided and abetted treason to the regime, before being killed and buried at Chong song ek. Just as those 50 people were taken to Tuol Seng to name 50 more people each, and so it went on..
1. Should Vietnam apologise to Cambodia for invading it in self defence? No.
2. Should the Khmer Rouge apologise for taking over the country, turning it into a failed agrigultural state that sold rice to China in exchange for weapons while people were starving or being murdered. That's a better question.
Will the Rouge ever be taken to justice in Cambodia?
3. Should Vietnam apologise for staying in Cambodia until 1989, propping up pro Vietnam government, and fighting the US/China backed Khmer Rouge in civil war until 1999, NO. Would you prefer Pol Pot to still be there, with his 'clear conscience' about all the murder the regime did.
4. Should Vietnam apolgise for taking Cambodia resources illegally. Sure it should. But then, so should British and American oil companies who currently plunder Iraq FOR FREE. Is it any coincidence that peace and stability have been messed up by rubbish management and foreign policy all this time, so that US and UK forces can sit there and get killed and injured, whilst Exxon and BP profit. The Coalition forces became the toilet paper of the oil industry which sickens me.
5. Should Vietnam apolgise for using Laos and Cambodia to fight America. Yes. Just as America should apologies to the Thai, Philipinos, Koreans, Australians and everyone else they dragged in to fight the Vietnam war for them.
The Lao Hmong, who were left behind in Laos. The ARVNs they built up to be left behind in South Vietnam.
Should communist leaders apologise for uniting Vietnam under their rule, against the will of many people.
Maybe.. but the leaders who set that up died decades ago.
5. Will America admit to its part in supporting the Khmer Rouge, bombing Laos and Cambodia, and vetoing food to a starving nation - the only time a starving nation has had UN Food Aid vetoed! I doubt it.
6. Will China apologise to the world for supporting the Khmer Rouge, invading Vietnam to 'teach it a lesson' (and getting beaten back!), invading Tibet and Kashgar because 2000 years ago it may have been part of an empire, human rights violations to its own people - particularly Tianemen Square 1989.. Will they be brought to account for sending millions of tons of weapons to wars in Africa, feeding the Sudanese forces and rebels who murder in Darfur, and murdered in Zaire, Congo, Sierra Leone - and soon in Zimbabwe. I very much doubt it. Chinese leaders are unable to accept self criticism, or apologise for anything they do to anyone.
To the author of this read, you need to read books and articles by Nayan Chanda of the Far East Economic Review. He was in both Vietnam and Cambodia over this period in History, and charted it all, in the most accute detail in a book called BROTHER ENEMY. Far more than any American university journal will give you.
As for China, read current affairs. Behind every murdering regime in the world, you wont find condemnation from China. You are more likely to find cheap weapons on their way to kill and mame.
Happy reading, and learning
When will Vietnam apologize to the Cambodians? I mean the Vietnamese government continuously requested an official apology from the Chinese government for its invasion of Vietnam before the normalization of relations between the two countries. What about the Vietnamese invasion and occupation of Cambodia and the Vietnamese illegal use of Cambodian territory to fight the Americans and the Vietnamese support of the Khmer Rouge takeover of Cambodia in 1975?
□ Vietnam illegally used Cambodia to fight the Americans.
□ Vietnam created the Khmer Rouge (In 1954, over one thousand Khmer Rouge members stayed in exile in North Vietnam), supported the Khmer Rouge, and helped the Khmer Rouge take over Cambodia in 1975. In 1965 Pol Pot made a visit of several months duration to North Vietnam.
□ Vietnam chose not to eliminate the fighting capability of the Khmer Rouge forces and even allowed a considerable number to retreat to their traditional strongholds in the Cardamom Mountains (mountain hideout).
□ Vietnamese foreign minister Nguyen Co Thach said that the goal of the Vietnamese forces was not to liberate the Cambodians from the Khmer Rouge regime but to stop the Chinese presence in Cambodia.
□ Vietnam used the Soviet help to invade Cambodia.
□Vietnam illegally occupied Cambodia for 10 long years.
□Vietnam invaded Cambodia only to expand its colonialism and to materialize the concept of the Indochina Union and to install a replacement regime in Cambodia and to assume control over Hun Sens government and the communist party.
□If Vietnams act was to liberate the Cambodians from the jaw of death, then why was Vietnam opposed by the United States, the free world faction, China, and ASEAN?
□Vietnam only withdrew from Cambodia after the collapse of its main backer which was the Soviet Union.
□Vietnam exploited Cambodias timber and fish resources worth hundreds of millions of dollars in eastern Cambodia and the great lake.
□Vietnam allowed illegal Vietnamese immigrants to settle in key economic areas in Cambodia.
□The Vietnamese communists reneged on the border agreements they had made with Cambodia in 1970.
□Vietnamese troops made Cambodias hunger problem worse, and more Cambodians died as a result of a famine across the whole country.
□ Vietnamese troops systematically pillaged Cambodian shops, homes, and Buddhist temples. They took back to Hanoi machines, household appliances, furniture, Buddha heads, and donated rice intended for Cambodian refugees.
□ Vietnamese troops outnumbered the Khmer Rouge 7 to 1, so how come the Khmer Rouge always managed to swoop down at night and attacked the defenseless Cambodian village inhabitants under the protection of the mighty Vietnamese?
□ Vietnam did not allowed the international large-scale relief efforts of food into Cambodia to help the starving Cambodians. One Western diplomat said, “The Vietnamese simply don't give a damn about what happens to the Cambodians."
□Vietnamese troops laid hundreds of thousands of landmines in Cambodia.
□Under the Vietnamese occupation of Cambodia, torture and arbitrary executions remained a feature of life for many Cambodians. The worst abuse of human rights was perpetrated by the colossal “K-5 Plan”, the intention of which was to seal the border to Thailand by a combination of deforestation, dykes, canals, strategic fences, and minefields. This ambition caused thousands of deaths: out of the labour force of some 120.000 used for the realization of this plan, over 50.000 died because of working in some of the worst terrain in Cambodia, containing not only dangerous minefields (laid by the Khmer Rouge), but also thick forests, full of malaria.
Reference Sources:
A Country Study: Cambodia
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/khtoc.html
The Great Powers and the Tragedy of Cambodia
http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Ch...handa-con3.html
Cambodia: A burden of the past
http://www.asiasociety.org/publications/cambodia/burden.html
Deathwatch: Cambodia
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/...46349-8,00.html
Indochina Database: Cambodia
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_411.shtml
[/quote]
Personally I don't care for an apology. What they should do is just teach their people the right history.
QUOTE(thaitim @ Aug 7 2008, 06:23 PM)
Your studies are miguided, and the people who wrote the guides you refered to must have been watching too many films..
You don't even the reference sources for me, and yet you mock them?
In addition, I also used the statements of Nayan Chanda of the Far East Economic Review in my post. Now since you already group his views as misguided, why do you want me to read his book for? Actually, I put up this post in response to a Vietnamese thread demanding the Cambodian gratitude for the Vietnamese "sacrificies and liberation" for the Cambodian people from the jaw of death.
QUOTE
"Has Cambodia ever formally thank Vietnam?, for liberating them? Has Cambodia ever formally thank Vietnam for liberating them? we sacrificed ourselves and yet what have they done for us?" post starter qwe123 <a href="http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=169589" target="_blank">
Here is the history at its purest form: At the beginning, the bad guys were the Vietnamese, and the end the bad guys were still the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese started the games from square one and ended the game in the last round. You are in agreement with me that Vietnam chose to invade Cambodia in self defense, not to LIBERATE the Cambodians from the Khmer Rouge. However, I wonder why you only begin with the 1979? What about the Vietnamese invasion of NEUTRAL Cambodia in 1954 and in 1970?
Vietnam I tell you, it was the source of all the various calamities in Cambodia. By the way, if you like Nayan Chanda that much, check out this link below. I use his information in my post. The Great Powers and the Tragedy of Cambodia
[url=http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Chanda/chanda-con3.html]http://globetrotter.berkeley.edu/people/Ch...handa-con3.html</a>
Please be a good sport. We are here to establish the truth and nothing but the truth, so please supply your reference sources.
double post
QUOTE(AnAttA @ Aug 7 2008, 03:47 PM)
good on you. focus on a rotten prasart instead of yourwhole country. smart move.
now if you have to fight vietnam again, dont come crawling to us.
now if you have to fight vietnam again, dont come crawling to us.
I dont know អ្នកស្នេហាជាតិ loves to wage ware on neighbors, are you thinking about destruction?
Hey guys, I think I should tell you guys this. My father came to Cambodia as a civil engineer to rebuild the roads in Cambodia after Vietnam topple the Pol Pot regime. From what he told me, we wouldn't have been there if the Pol Pot didn't cross our border and massacre our civilians. He said the Vietnamese soldiers were there to ensure the safety of Vietnamese civilians and Vietnam's border by preventing the Pol Pot from getting back to power.
I think humans are just a product of Nature. In order to survive, species must compete for food and territory. The "fitter" ones got to survive and "non-fit" ones died out gradually. The same thing apply to humans. This world is full of competitions. Every nation looks out for the interests and benefits of their own people. No, Vietnam is not evil for conquering Champa and Khmer kingdom. China is not evil for conquering Tibet. The U.S. is not evil for invading Iraq to get access to oil sources. They were doing these things for the interests of their own nations, but sometimes their nations' interests come into conflicts with other nations' interest, and that is when war breaks out. In the past, the Khmers conquered land of other people too. There is no clear line between right and wrong. The only thing that matters is whether you have the capability to fight against your enemies, offensive or defensive. In the past century, Vietnam itself has suffered a lot from the wars with French, Japanese, American, and Chinese, but you don't see Viet folks complaining about it nor demanding apology from anyone. They rather faced their problems and put their heart in rebuilding their country from ruins. I think Cambodia would get much better if Cambodians do the same thing.
I think humans are just a product of Nature. In order to survive, species must compete for food and territory. The "fitter" ones got to survive and "non-fit" ones died out gradually. The same thing apply to humans. This world is full of competitions. Every nation looks out for the interests and benefits of their own people. No, Vietnam is not evil for conquering Champa and Khmer kingdom. China is not evil for conquering Tibet. The U.S. is not evil for invading Iraq to get access to oil sources. They were doing these things for the interests of their own nations, but sometimes their nations' interests come into conflicts with other nations' interest, and that is when war breaks out. In the past, the Khmers conquered land of other people too. There is no clear line between right and wrong. The only thing that matters is whether you have the capability to fight against your enemies, offensive or defensive. In the past century, Vietnam itself has suffered a lot from the wars with French, Japanese, American, and Chinese, but you don't see Viet folks complaining about it nor demanding apology from anyone. They rather faced their problems and put their heart in rebuilding their country from ruins. I think Cambodia would get much better if Cambodians do the same thing.
QUOTE(XigonCongchua @ Aug 8 2008, 12:27 AM)
Hey guys, I think I should tell you guys this. My father came to Cambodia as a civil engineer to rebuild the roads in Cambodia after Vietnam topple the Pol Pot regime. From what he told me, we wouldn't have been there if the Pol Pot didn't cross our border and massacre our civilians. He said the Vietnamese soldiers were there to ensure the safety of Vietnamese civilians and Vietnam's border by preventing the Pol Pot from getting back to power.
I think humans are just a product of Nature. In order to survive, species must compete for food and territory. The "fitter" ones got to survive and "non-fit" ones died out gradually. The same thing apply to humans. This world is full of competitions. Every nation looks out for the interests and benefits of their own people. No, Vietnam is not evil for conquering Champa and Khmer kingdom. China is not evil for conquering Tibet. The U.S. is not evil for invading Iraq to get access to oil sources. They were doing these things for the interests of their own nations, but sometimes their nations' interests come into conflicts with other nations' interest, and that is when war breaks out. In the past, the Khmers conquered land of other people too. There is no clear line between right and wrong. The only thing that matters is whether you have the capability to fight against your enemies, offensive or defensive. In the past century, Vietnam itself has suffered a lot from the wars with French, Japanese, American, and Chinese, but you don't see Viet folks complaining about it nor demanding apology from anyone. They rather faced their problems and put their heart in rebuilding their country from ruins. I think Cambodia would get much better if Cambodians do the same thing.
I think humans are just a product of Nature. In order to survive, species must compete for food and territory. The "fitter" ones got to survive and "non-fit" ones died out gradually. The same thing apply to humans. This world is full of competitions. Every nation looks out for the interests and benefits of their own people. No, Vietnam is not evil for conquering Champa and Khmer kingdom. China is not evil for conquering Tibet. The U.S. is not evil for invading Iraq to get access to oil sources. They were doing these things for the interests of their own nations, but sometimes their nations' interests come into conflicts with other nations' interest, and that is when war breaks out. In the past, the Khmers conquered land of other people too. There is no clear line between right and wrong. The only thing that matters is whether you have the capability to fight against your enemies, offensive or defensive. In the past century, Vietnam itself has suffered a lot from the wars with French, Japanese, American, and Chinese, but you don't see Viet folks complaining about it nor demanding apology from anyone. They rather faced their problems and put their heart in rebuilding their country from ruins. I think Cambodia would get much better if Cambodians do the same thing.
No Khmer in here is demanding anything from Viets. This thread was made in respond to a Viet person that posted this same topic first in the Viet chat, when that person should of had the balls and posted in here instead. Furthermore, stop being dilusional. Khmers are rebuilding faster than you can say Uncle Ho.
QUOTE(preahvihear @ Aug 7 2008, 10:08 PM)
Hello again Pogpog. First let me deal with the "troll" issue. If you visit Vietnamese Chat, you will see a thread asking for Cambodians to formally thank the Vietnamese for the Vietnamese "sacrifices" to liberate the Cambodians from the jaw of death. In truth, it is no so. Vietnam only invaded Cambodia to install their own henchmen in power of the country. In addition, how do you plan to "thresh out" the problems like adults? Can you lead by example please because talk is cheap.
indeed talk is cheap, sorry for the late reply.
right now, i really have no idea how you should deal with it as we ourselves have our own incoming problem now in my own country. maybe i should just left you for the moment to your own devices and focus my energy more on my own backyard before i dive in here again...
QUOTE(Pogpog @ Aug 8 2008, 05:19 AM)
indeed talk is cheap, sorry for the late reply. right now, i really have no idea how you should deal with it as we ourselves have our own incoming problem now in my own country. maybe i should just left you for the moment to your own devices and focus my energy more on my own backyard before i dive in here again...
Thanks for responding, Pogpog. Actually the only way to counter a claim or a demand is to present the truth. And the truth is that the Vietnamese did not come to liberate the Cambodians from the jaw of death, but they came to take an advantage of the situation of the time. In fact, the Vietnamese action was simply a repeat of their past action. They refused to give up. In the 1800s, the Vietnamese tried to annex the whole Cambodia as a part of their territory. They also imposed their Chinese-based world view and culture on the Hindu-Buddhist Cambodians. Cambodians were required to do work for the benefits of the Vietnamese. Naturally the Cambodians said, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
The Cambodians were never meant to be like the Vietnamese. As a result, the Cambodians kicked the unwanted unwelcomed Vietnamese out of Cambodia for good. One of the Vietnamese generals got very upset and even commit suicide. The Hindu-Buddhist Cambodians back in the 1800s got so disgusted of the Vietnamese aggressiveness and one-track closemindedness, that the view of the Vietnamese in general became so low to the point that the Vietnamese were no longer considered members of the humanity. This led to the countrywide uprising and slaughter of the Vietnamese troops stationed in Cambodia.
The fact of the matter is right now both countries are rebuilding faster than Siagon is being renamed to Ho Chi Minh City. Thats what really matters.
I just want peace for both countries since we both went through a lot. However, qwe123's request for a thank you is idiotic. The Vietnamese threw Pol Pot out for their own benefits.
oh what have we done?
"Preahvihear" Hey brotha, you have alot of insights of our history. Because you go in details and basically reply with paragraphs after paragraphs I just stroll forward and read and agree just about everything you typed, therefore; I really don't have anything to type. Great Job son!!! Although, All I have to say is, It's hard enough fighting our 2 main neighbors, but when our khmer killing khmer..i.e "khmer rouge" its just impossible'. For me, I don't want any apology, I just want our neighbors to respect us and stop interfering with our sovereignty then everything will take care of itself externally. Maybe, its just wishful thinking because the bickering have been going on for centuries.
What is an apology going to fix? I ask this out of seriousness.
Well, I do believe the thread in Vietnamese chat about asking Cambodia say THANKS is irrelevant subject because Cambodian Father King Norodom Sihanouk, current King Sihamoni, and "long live" prime minister Hunsen officially did everytime when visitting Vietnam or when Vietnamese leaders visit Cambodia...!!! Of course, I doubt if they seriously meant it or not (?!)
From the same scenerio, did China, France, America, or Khmer Rouge ever apologize for what they did to Vietnam? NO!!! Luckily, Vietnamese people can forgive and forget... Right or wrong, everyone in the world knows...Vietnamese never deny the fact we erased kingdom of Champa out of the world map, moved (took, immigrated, stole...whatever words..) to the land of ancient Khmer kingdom...but so what? If the Vietnamese couldn't defeat Chinese empires ivasion several times, and became a part of China nowadays...I'm very sure there would be neither Laos, Cambodia, nor Thailand still exist at present times!!! Think about it...
Sorry to say, please do not take things seriously and get offended. From my personal points of view, it was a bizzare mistake of Khmer Empire to invest her country human resources, financial, and times to build huge Angkor Wat... Despite the fact it was so impressive, breathtaking wonder of human being, but it didn't bring any benefit for the empire and was abandoned for hundreds of years later. Without building it, I really sure the Khmer kingdom could build strong brave army. It definitely would be the most powerful country in SE Asia, and who knows maybe only Khmer Empire dominated SE Asia today together with the giant China in the north?
Again, it's just my personal thoughts...
From the same scenerio, did China, France, America, or Khmer Rouge ever apologize for what they did to Vietnam? NO!!! Luckily, Vietnamese people can forgive and forget... Right or wrong, everyone in the world knows...Vietnamese never deny the fact we erased kingdom of Champa out of the world map, moved (took, immigrated, stole...whatever words..) to the land of ancient Khmer kingdom...but so what? If the Vietnamese couldn't defeat Chinese empires ivasion several times, and became a part of China nowadays...I'm very sure there would be neither Laos, Cambodia, nor Thailand still exist at present times!!! Think about it...
Sorry to say, please do not take things seriously and get offended. From my personal points of view, it was a bizzare mistake of Khmer Empire to invest her country human resources, financial, and times to build huge Angkor Wat... Despite the fact it was so impressive, breathtaking wonder of human being, but it didn't bring any benefit for the empire and was abandoned for hundreds of years later. Without building it, I really sure the Khmer kingdom could build strong brave army. It definitely would be the most powerful country in SE Asia, and who knows maybe only Khmer Empire dominated SE Asia today together with the giant China in the north?
Again, it's just my personal thoughts...
yes i do believe vietnam needs to apologize to the cambodian people.
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