Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, arrived in the city of Vladikavkaz, close to Russia's border with Georgia, and said Russia had been right to launch its offensive.
"From a legal point of view our actions are absolutely well-founded and legitimate and moreover necessary," Putin said, blasting Georgia's "criminal" leadership.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080809/worl...a_russia_unrest
And the reason why the U.S.A are backing Georgia is because they are allys, and Georgia has the 2nd most militia support in Iraq backing the U.S.
Some of the Pro-Western politicians has to stop thinking that everybody in the world is dumb, because i Bulldogg won't be fooled.
Georgia broke away from Russia former U.S.S.R.
South Ossetia wants to break away from Georgia, and they get punished.
Georgia = hypocrits.
Full Version: Prime Minister Vladimir Putin
QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Aug 9 2008, 04:04 PM) 
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, arrived in the city of Vladikavkaz, close to Russia's border with Georgia, and said Russia had been right to launch its offensive.
"From a legal point of view our actions are absolutely well-founded and legitimate and moreover necessary," Putin said, blasting Georgia's "criminal" leadership.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080809/worl...a_russia_unrest
And the reason why the U.S.A are backing Georgia is because they are allys, and Georgia has the 2nd most militia support in Iraq backing the U.S.
Some of the Pro-Western politicians has to stop thinking that everybody in the world is dumb, because i Bulldogg won't be fooled.
Georgia broke away from Russia former U.S.S.R.
South Ossetia wants to break away from Georgia, and they get punished.
Georgia = hypocrits.
"From a legal point of view our actions are absolutely well-founded and legitimate and moreover necessary," Putin said, blasting Georgia's "criminal" leadership.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080809/worl...a_russia_unrest
And the reason why the U.S.A are backing Georgia is because they are allys, and Georgia has the 2nd most militia support in Iraq backing the U.S.
Some of the Pro-Western politicians has to stop thinking that everybody in the world is dumb, because i Bulldogg won't be fooled.
Georgia broke away from Russia former U.S.S.R.
South Ossetia wants to break away from Georgia, and they get punished.
Georgia = hypocrits.
Russia made the right choice to send its tanks into Georgia to supress the surprise offensive purposely launched the day before the Olympics which was planeed by US, UK, and NATO. Russia had tried to resolve this issue through the UN Security Council by peaceful methods but the US and UK purposely slowed things down. And the thnic Russia civilians were relentlyessly being murdered in South Ossetia and Medvedev had no other choice in terms of protecting the lives of his people.
QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Aug 9 2008, 04:04 PM)
And the reason why the U.S.A are backing Georgia is because they are allys, and Georgia has the 2nd most militia support in Iraq backing the U.S.
Some of the Pro-Western politicians has to stop thinking that everybody in the world is dumb, because i Bulldogg won't be fooled.
Some of the Pro-Western politicians has to stop thinking that everybody in the world is dumb, because i Bulldogg won't be fooled.
This incident is the key reason why Georgia had so many troops in Iraq in the first place. Georgia has been planning to wage war on Russia to take S.Ossetia for a long time and they used the Iraq-War as theater to gain combat experience for when they take on the Russians.
Russia agreed to return some land back to China. Was this part of Russia plan to get the support from China?
Russia's now in control!!! Georgian troops just pulled the hell out of South Ossetia:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm
Georgia says its forces have withdrawn from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, and that Russian troops are now in control of the regional capital.
An interior ministry spokesman told the BBC it was not a military defeat but a necessary step to protect civilians from a "humanitarian catastrophe".
Georgia says Russia has brought an additional 10,000 soldiers across its frontiers, readying for a raid.
Earlier, Russian jets bombed a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.
There was no independent confirmation of the attack, although the BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, who was in Tbilisi, said he had heard a loud explosion about the same time.
Georgian troops have pulled back to positions at or south of those held on 6 August, when the current hostilities began, said Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili.
He told the BBC that the withdrawal was necessary because of the mass casualties both within Georgia and South Ossetia, at the hands of the Russians.
Mr Utiashvili said 100 Georgian soldiers had been killed and many more injured.
Earlier, Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili called for an immediate ceasefire to stop what he described as an "annihilation" of his country's democracy.
In the absence of independent verification, there are conflicting figures about the casualties suffered on both sides but the numbers appeared to rise sharply on Saturday.
Based on Russian and South Ossetian estimates, the death toll on the South Ossetian side was at least 1,500. According to Moscow, all but a few of the dead were civilians.
'Fatal blow'
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused Georgia of genocide against the South Ossetian people and defended Moscow's military action to intervene directly.
See a map of the region
On Saturday, he flew to the Russian city of Vladikavkaz, close to the border with South Ossetia, where he met those who had fled the violence.
He said the territorial integrity of Georgia had "suffered a fatal blow", suggesting that it was unlikely that South Ossetia would re-integrate with the rest of Georgia after the conflict.
He said the conflict had created at least 34,000 refugees.
This figure wildly conflicts with that cited by the UN refugee agency, which it says is based on information supplied by both sides.
The UN estimates that about 2,400 people have fled South Ossetia to other parts of Georgia while between 4,000 and 5,000 have crossed the border into Russia.
Redrawing the map
Meanwhile, a joint delegation of the US, EU and the Organisation of Security and Co-operation in Europe is heading to Georgia in the hope of brokering a truce.
It comes as a third emergency session of the UN Security Council ended without an agreement on the wording of a statement calling for a ceasefire.
But emissaries from the US and Europe who are Nato members may not be seen as honest brokers by the Kremlin when it comes to Georgia, BBC's diplomatic correspondent Bridget Kendall says.
The danger now is that Russia will not only use this crisis to demonstrate its military power in the region, but argue it is time to redraw the map, she adds.
Moscow has said there can be no "consultations" with Georgia unless Georgian forces withdraw to the positions they held outside South Ossetia before Thursday.
Meanwhile Russian jets have bombed several towns, including the central Georgian city of Gori, where Georgian troops had been massing to support forces engaged in South Ossetia.
Georgian TV has also shown pictures of damage to the Black Sea port of Poti, the site of a major oil shipment facility, after a reported Russian air strike.
President Saakashvili told the BBC on Saturday that Moscow wanted to take control of energy routes to Europe and accused it of "war crimes" against civilians.
His parliament has approved a presidential decree declaring that the country is in a state of war for 15 days.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm
QUOTE
Georgia 'pulls out of S Ossetia'
Georgia says its forces have withdrawn from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, and that Russian troops are now in control of the regional capital.
An interior ministry spokesman told the BBC it was not a military defeat but a necessary step to protect civilians from a "humanitarian catastrophe".
Georgia says Russia has brought an additional 10,000 soldiers across its frontiers, readying for a raid.
Earlier, Russian jets bombed a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.
There was no independent confirmation of the attack, although the BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, who was in Tbilisi, said he had heard a loud explosion about the same time.
Georgian troops have pulled back to positions at or south of those held on 6 August, when the current hostilities began, said Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili.
He told the BBC that the withdrawal was necessary because of the mass casualties both within Georgia and South Ossetia, at the hands of the Russians.
Mr Utiashvili said 100 Georgian soldiers had been killed and many more injured.
Earlier, Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili called for an immediate ceasefire to stop what he described as an "annihilation" of his country's democracy.
In the absence of independent verification, there are conflicting figures about the casualties suffered on both sides but the numbers appeared to rise sharply on Saturday.
Based on Russian and South Ossetian estimates, the death toll on the South Ossetian side was at least 1,500. According to Moscow, all but a few of the dead were civilians.
'Fatal blow'
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has accused Georgia of genocide against the South Ossetian people and defended Moscow's military action to intervene directly.
See a map of the region
On Saturday, he flew to the Russian city of Vladikavkaz, close to the border with South Ossetia, where he met those who had fled the violence.
He said the territorial integrity of Georgia had "suffered a fatal blow", suggesting that it was unlikely that South Ossetia would re-integrate with the rest of Georgia after the conflict.
He said the conflict had created at least 34,000 refugees.
This figure wildly conflicts with that cited by the UN refugee agency, which it says is based on information supplied by both sides.
The UN estimates that about 2,400 people have fled South Ossetia to other parts of Georgia while between 4,000 and 5,000 have crossed the border into Russia.
Redrawing the map
Meanwhile, a joint delegation of the US, EU and the Organisation of Security and Co-operation in Europe is heading to Georgia in the hope of brokering a truce.
It comes as a third emergency session of the UN Security Council ended without an agreement on the wording of a statement calling for a ceasefire.
But emissaries from the US and Europe who are Nato members may not be seen as honest brokers by the Kremlin when it comes to Georgia, BBC's diplomatic correspondent Bridget Kendall says.
The danger now is that Russia will not only use this crisis to demonstrate its military power in the region, but argue it is time to redraw the map, she adds.
Moscow has said there can be no "consultations" with Georgia unless Georgian forces withdraw to the positions they held outside South Ossetia before Thursday.
Meanwhile Russian jets have bombed several towns, including the central Georgian city of Gori, where Georgian troops had been massing to support forces engaged in South Ossetia.
Georgian TV has also shown pictures of damage to the Black Sea port of Poti, the site of a major oil shipment facility, after a reported Russian air strike.
President Saakashvili told the BBC on Saturday that Moscow wanted to take control of energy routes to Europe and accused it of "war crimes" against civilians.
His parliament has approved a presidential decree declaring that the country is in a state of war for 15 days.
It also sickens me how the BBC could write such a biased article that's anti-Russian and pro-Georgian despite the fact that Georgia's the agressor who launched this conflict killing ~1,500 people most of whom were civilians and Russia was the one who has been dragged into this whole ordeal.
Russia's now in control!!! Georgian troops just pulled the hell out of South Ossetia:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm
Yea, my @$$. Georgia has proven that it really doesn't give a $hit for humanity when it launched an unprovoked attack killing around 1,500. How laughable that a Georgian guy would even think about pretending to be the victim.
Russia had every right to do so as Georgian Su-25 fighterjets unprovokedly bombed Tskhinvali, the Capital of South Ossetia.
WTF!!! Trying to paint Russians as the "Bad Guys" is just pathetic.
BTW, why are the other two threads on this closed?
Russia's now in control!!! Georgian troops just pulled the hell out of South Ossetia:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm
QUOTE
An interior ministry spokesman told the BBC it was not a military defeat but a necessary step to protect civilians from a "humanitarian catastrophe".
Yea, my @$$. Georgia has proven that it really doesn't give a $hit for humanity when it launched an unprovoked attack killing around 1,500. How laughable that a Georgian guy would even think about pretending to be the victim.
QUOTE
Earlier, Russian jets bombed a military airfield close to the Georgian capital.
Russia had every right to do so as Georgian Su-25 fighterjets unprovokedly bombed Tskhinvali, the Capital of South Ossetia.
QUOTE
He told the BBC that the withdrawal was necessary because of the mass casualties both within Georgia and South Ossetia, at the hands of the Russians.
Mr Utiashvili said 100 Georgian soldiers had been killed and many more injured.
Mr Utiashvili said 100 Georgian soldiers had been killed and many more injured.
WTF!!! Trying to paint Russians as the "Bad Guys" is just pathetic.
BTW, why are the other two threads on this closed?
QUOTE(B.ZhangMidshipman @ Aug 9 2008, 10:52 PM)
It also sickens me how the BBC could write such a biased article that's anti-Russian and pro-Georgian despite the fact that Georgia's the agressor who launched this conflict killing ~1,500 people most of whom were civilians and Russia was the one who has been dragged into this whole ordeal.
Russia's now in control!!! Georgian troops just pulled the hell out of South Ossetia:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm
Yea, my @$$. Georgia has proven that it really doesn't give a $hit for humanity when it launched an unprovoked attack killing around 1,500. How laughable that a Georgian guy would even think about pretending to be the victim.
Russia had every right to do so as Georgian Su-25 fighterjets unprovokedly bombed Tskhinvali, the Capital of South Ossetia.
WTF!!! Trying to paint Russians as the "Bad Guys" is just pathetic.
BTW, why are the other two threads on this closed?
Russia's now in control!!! Georgian troops just pulled the hell out of South Ossetia:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm
Yea, my @$$. Georgia has proven that it really doesn't give a $hit for humanity when it launched an unprovoked attack killing around 1,500. How laughable that a Georgian guy would even think about pretending to be the victim.
Russia had every right to do so as Georgian Su-25 fighterjets unprovokedly bombed Tskhinvali, the Capital of South Ossetia.
WTF!!! Trying to paint Russians as the "Bad Guys" is just pathetic.
BTW, why are the other two threads on this closed?
Aren't you an officer in the US Navy?
QUOTE(baal @ Aug 9 2008, 11:00 PM)
Aren't you an officer in the US Navy?
I need to change my username FOREVER!
i like the name "vladimir" ^^ it's very latino-ish and sexy ^^ more of a bad boys name XD
QUOTE(BrooklynCarter @ Aug 9 2008, 11:02 PM)
i like the name "vladimir" ^^ it's very latino-ish and sexy ^^ more of a bad boys name XD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OFOPd6pgjI
QUOTE(B.ZhangMidshipman @ Aug 9 2008, 11:02 PM)
I need to change my username FOREVER!
If you're thinking about a new name how about Vladimir?
QUOTE(Bulldogg @ Aug 10 2008, 01:04 AM)
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, arrived in the city of Vladikavkaz, close to Russia's border with Georgia, and said Russia had been right to launch its offensive.
"From a legal point of view our actions are absolutely well-founded and legitimate and moreover necessary," Putin said, blasting Georgia's "criminal" leadership.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080809/worl...a_russia_unrest
And the reason why the U.S.A are backing Georgia is because they are allys, and Georgia has the 2nd most militia support in Iraq backing the U.S.
Some of the Pro-Western politicians has to stop thinking that everybody in the world is dumb, because i Bulldogg won't be fooled.
Georgia broke away from Russia former U.S.S.R.
South Ossetia wants to break away from Georgia, and they get punished.
Georgia = hypocrits.
"From a legal point of view our actions are absolutely well-founded and legitimate and moreover necessary," Putin said, blasting Georgia's "criminal" leadership.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080809/worl...a_russia_unrest
And the reason why the U.S.A are backing Georgia is because they are allys, and Georgia has the 2nd most militia support in Iraq backing the U.S.
Some of the Pro-Western politicians has to stop thinking that everybody in the world is dumb, because i Bulldogg won't be fooled.
Georgia broke away from Russia former U.S.S.R.
South Ossetia wants to break away from Georgia, and they get punished.
Georgia = hypocrits.
not quite
When georgia broke away from russia was it with millitary suport from lets say America who bombed russia? NO!
Russia has no bussines there.
QUOTE(B.ZhangMidshipman @ Aug 10 2008, 06:23 PM)
oh.. it's that fat guy? ^^
The hypocritical attitude of so many nations is brought into spotlight with this incident.
Russia, who always support the territorial integrity of states now supports South Ossetia, the BREAKAWAY province of Georgia.
USA and Europe, aka the West, who always talk about the sacrosanctity of human rights and right to self-determination is supporting Georgia, the state that attacked South Ossetia.
Just face it. None of them really care about the people living in South Ossetia or Georgia. All they are concerned about is geopolitics. Masked under the facade of "human rights".
And WHY are the threads on this topic keeps getting closed???
Russia, who always support the territorial integrity of states now supports South Ossetia, the BREAKAWAY province of Georgia.
USA and Europe, aka the West, who always talk about the sacrosanctity of human rights and right to self-determination is supporting Georgia, the state that attacked South Ossetia.
Just face it. None of them really care about the people living in South Ossetia or Georgia. All they are concerned about is geopolitics. Masked under the facade of "human rights".
And WHY are the threads on this topic keeps getting closed???
QUOTE(wadthehell2 @ Aug 10 2008, 01:34 AM)
The hypocritical attitude of so many nations is brought into spotlight with this incident.
Russia, who always support the territorial integrity of states now supports South Ossetia, the BREAKAWAY province of Georgia.
USA and Europe, aka the West, who always talk about the sacrosanctity of human rights and right to self-determination is supporting Georgia, the state that attacked South Ossetia.
Just face it. None of them really care about the people living in South Ossetia or Georgia. All they are concerned about is geopolitics. Masked under the facade of "human rights".
And WHY are the threads on this topic keeps getting closed???
Russia, who always support the territorial integrity of states now supports South Ossetia, the BREAKAWAY province of Georgia.
USA and Europe, aka the West, who always talk about the sacrosanctity of human rights and right to self-determination is supporting Georgia, the state that attacked South Ossetia.
Just face it. None of them really care about the people living in South Ossetia or Georgia. All they are concerned about is geopolitics. Masked under the facade of "human rights".
And WHY are the threads on this topic keeps getting closed???
Good analysis. The threads keep getting closed because many of the North American based Chinese nationalists on AF discussing this subject haven't realized that their positions on the Georgian-Russian hostilities are in direct conflict with the official policy of the PRC. The potential for embarrassment is significant. Admin seeks to avoid their embarrassment.
I don't think this war is justifiable. Let it end now.
Plus I bet a lot of people here in the US think it's the state of U.S Georgia, not the country Georgia.
Plus I bet a lot of people here in the US think it's the state of U.S Georgia, not the country Georgia.
QUOTE(iMumble @ Aug 10 2008, 08:46 PM)
I don't think this war is justifiable. Let it end now.
Plus I bet a lot of people here in the US think it's the state of U.S Georgia, not the country Georgia.
Plus I bet a lot of people here in the US think it's the state of U.S Georgia, not the country Georgia.
roflmao
I say Goergia had it coming. the region of South Ossetia has long eager to break away from Georgia because it has no cultural ties to the Georgians. The Ossetians are linguistically a different people, and they wanted their independence.
However, there are many people in Russia still wanting independence. The Russians are also hypocritical.
However, there are many people in Russia still wanting independence. The Russians are also hypocritical.
QUOTE(P. Bredahl @ Aug 10 2008, 02:08 PM)
roflmao
Proof: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qi...09170204AACQlD9
QUOTE
Russia vs. Georgia...WHO WILL WIN? I know...sounds easy. Remember the United States was defeated by North Vietnam and was stalemated with the superpower North Korea. Who knows what will happen with Iraq? So my question is real. Georgia is a much smaller state but I am sure they have a national guard already assembled in either Macon or Atlanta and I am sure those boys up in the Smoky Mountains are a force to be reckoned with.
Bold = Epic Fail.
Did you hear on the news. They said the Capital City of South Ossentia was devastated.
If the Georgians had not been in South Ossentia like they stated , then how did the Capital City of South Ossentia get devastated. There would not have been heavy fighting there if no Georgians there. The Russians would just have walked in. So there must have been a big Georgian force there for the entire city to get devastated in a fight.
If the Georgians had not been in South Ossentia like they stated , then how did the Capital City of South Ossentia get devastated. There would not have been heavy fighting there if no Georgians there. The Russians would just have walked in. So there must have been a big Georgian force there for the entire city to get devastated in a fight.
Russia should go all the way and annex Georgia. 
China should do the same with, south China.
^ You don't have to worry Russia/Georgia today is Thailand/Cambodia tomorrow. Just imagine Georgia is like Cambodia, and Thailand is like Russia. Pretty fun to watch.
Apparently Abkhazia is now trying to seperate from Georgia as well.
QUOTE(baal @ Aug 10 2008, 11:05 AM)
Good analysis. The threads keep getting closed because many of the North American based Chinese nationalists on AF discussing this subject haven't realized that their positions on the Georgian-Russian hostilities are in direct conflict with the official policy of the PRC. The potential for embarrassment is significant. Admin seeks to avoid their embarrassment.
Are you suggesting that China is against Russia and supports Georgia on this? If so, then please take a look:
http://ruvr.ru/main.php?lng=eng&q=3073...mp;p=08.08.2008
QUOTE
MEDVEDEV: GEORGIA TRAMPLES INTERNATIONAL LAW
Russia believes the Georgian assault on South Ossetia represents a gross violation of agreements for Russian-led international peace-keeping in that independence-seeking territory.
President Medvedev has been speaking about this at an emergency sitting of his National Security Council:
The Russian military presence in South Ossetia complies with international law and is aimed at enforcing peace. As ever throughout its history, Russia guarantees security in the Caucasus. The action by Georgia flouts Russia’s mandate for peace-keeping and amounts to a blatant aggression. The victims are Russian peace-keepers and local people.
About a dozen Russian soldiers are killed. The attackers on them included members of what was supposed to act as a Georgian peace-keeping force. The civilian deaths are in the dozens and continue to mount. Most of these old folk, women and children were Russian passport holders.
Defending Russian nationals worldwide is a key part of my job as President. This is the line of action on the Russian side. The killers of Russian citizens anywhere in the world are facing inevitable retribution.
China is firm on the Russian side. President Hu Jintao told this to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin at a meeting with him in Beijing on Friday.
Mr Putin accused Georgia of violating the universal Olympic truce:
Ever since inception, the Olympic Games have been an occasion to hold fire in conflicts in all parts of the civilized world. Georgia has openly defied this accepted rule. Russia hopes the Commonwealth of Independent States will denounce the Georgian action and press for an immediate ceasefire in the conflict area. (end)
Russia believes the Georgian assault on South Ossetia represents a gross violation of agreements for Russian-led international peace-keeping in that independence-seeking territory.
President Medvedev has been speaking about this at an emergency sitting of his National Security Council:
The Russian military presence in South Ossetia complies with international law and is aimed at enforcing peace. As ever throughout its history, Russia guarantees security in the Caucasus. The action by Georgia flouts Russia’s mandate for peace-keeping and amounts to a blatant aggression. The victims are Russian peace-keepers and local people.
About a dozen Russian soldiers are killed. The attackers on them included members of what was supposed to act as a Georgian peace-keeping force. The civilian deaths are in the dozens and continue to mount. Most of these old folk, women and children were Russian passport holders.
Defending Russian nationals worldwide is a key part of my job as President. This is the line of action on the Russian side. The killers of Russian citizens anywhere in the world are facing inevitable retribution.
China is firm on the Russian side. President Hu Jintao told this to Prime Minister Vladimir Putin at a meeting with him in Beijing on Friday.
Mr Putin accused Georgia of violating the universal Olympic truce:
Ever since inception, the Olympic Games have been an occasion to hold fire in conflicts in all parts of the civilized world. Georgia has openly defied this accepted rule. Russia hopes the Commonwealth of Independent States will denounce the Georgian action and press for an immediate ceasefire in the conflict area. (end)
QUOTE(asean.asia @ Aug 10 2008, 04:03 PM)
^ You don't have to worry Russia/Georgia today is Thailand/Cambodia tomorrow. Just imagine Georgia is like Cambodia, and Thailand is like Russia. Pretty fun to watch.
Sure honey. But when the Olympics are done, south China south China.
China should be grateful that we don't invade them. Invade us eh.
QUOTE(applepannic @ Aug 10 2008, 04:26 PM)
Sure honey. But when the Olympics are done, south China south China.
Okies Dokies.
QUOTE(B.ZhangMidshipman @ Aug 10 2008, 02:10 PM)
Are you suggesting that China is against Russia and supports Georgia on this? If so, then please take a look:
http://ruvr.ru/main.php?lng=eng&q=3073...mp;p=08.08.2008
http://ruvr.ru/main.php?lng=eng&q=3073...mp;p=08.08.2008
Do you have a Chinese link saying the same thing as the Russian link you posted? Thanks.
This is the way I analyze this interesting conflict and the respective positions of the great powers. Georgia has internationally recognized borders. South Ossetia and Abkazia are Georgian provinces lying within those internationally recognized borders. The principal ethnicity of the residents of those provinces is not Georgian, but that is a common situation throughout the world. The ethnic Georgian residents of the two provinces were ethnically cleansed in the first round of this conflict in 1992. The war is being fought on Georgian, not Russian, soil. Georgia is an American ally that is situated in what the Russians refer to their "near abroad."
No significant portion of the residents of any American state or territory seek independence from America. This simply is not an issue.
Some significant portions of the residents of some Russian republics and territories do seek to break away from Russia and obtain independence. This is very much a concern of the Russian Federation.
Some significant portions of the residents of some PRC provinces/unincorporated territories do seek to break away from China and obtain independence. This is very much a matter of concern to Chinese authorities.
As a matter of logic America can hardly object to the residents of South Ossetia and Abkazia seeking independence from Georgia because America recognized the independence of the break away Serbian province of Kosovo in February of this year.
Russia strongly opposed Kosovan independence from Serbia, and the dismemberment of the territorial integrity of any and all internationally recognized nation-states. However, Russia's current actions in Georgia effectively undercut any logical argument it has against Kosovan independence, and legitimizes the aspirations of the Chechans and others for independence from Russia. It is simply a return to 19th century style coercive great power politics.
China has not recognized Kosovan independence from Serbia for to do so would in effect be to countenance the separatist claims of Tibetans, Uighurs and Taiwanese. If China sides with Russia in this matter the Chinese will have effectively legitimizes the principal of territorial dismemberment if that is what the residents of a province want. Such action by the PRC opens Pandora's Box.
Factually, I think the Georgians may have fallen into a Russian trap and now will suffer for it. Skirmishes and roadside bomb attacks have been going on for several weeks along the front lines of South Ossetian and Georgian forces. The Georgians acted unwisely. The ability of Russian armored units to cross into South Ossetia within hours after the inception of hostilities is suspicious because no military power on this planet can act that quickly to mobilize and concentrate forces unless they are acting according to a premeditated scheme.
What I find particularly interesting is the question of where the Russian forces stop, and the effect Russian actions will have on Nato, the EU, Ukraine, Polish and Czech participation in American national/European missile defense, the Baltic Republics, other nation-states in the Russian near abroad, the Great Game being played out among Russia, America and China in Central Asia, and the oil pipeline from Baku to the Turkish port. There must be plenty of unforseeable consequences that will only become obvious in the years ahead. Miscalculation is the handmaiden of war.
what alot of posters on here don't seem to realise is that this could be the begginings of WW3.
oh and while all of this is going on, the US is building up a MASSIVE naval fleet thats ready to approach the Persian Gulf along with Europe and France.
so this wasn't just Georgia playing into Russia's hand, this was also Russia playing into US hands.
get ready people.
so this wasn't just Georgia playing into Russia's hand, this was also Russia playing into US hands.
get ready people.
The simmering conflict between Russia and its small, former Soviet neighbor Georgia erupted late on Thursday when Georgia sent forces into South Ossetia, a small pro-Russian province which threw off Georgian rule in the 1990s.
Russia, which had provided support to the separatists and had peacekeepers stationed in the province, responded by pouring troops and heavy amour south through the Caucasus mountains into South Ossetia to drive back the Georgians.
The conflict alarmed the West, which views Georgia as a valuable, if volatile, ally because of its strategic location on an energy transit route carrying oil from the Caspian to Europe.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/080810/...rgia_ossetia_dc
I find this to be very interesting, it's all about power and Georgia is willing to give or join the other side of powers, and this does not bod well with Russia.
Russia, which had provided support to the separatists and had peacekeepers stationed in the province, responded by pouring troops and heavy amour south through the Caucasus mountains into South Ossetia to drive back the Georgians.
The conflict alarmed the West, which views Georgia as a valuable, if volatile, ally because of its strategic location on an energy transit route carrying oil from the Caspian to Europe.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/080810/...rgia_ossetia_dc
I find this to be very interesting, it's all about power and Georgia is willing to give or join the other side of powers, and this does not bod well with Russia.
QUOTE(tristan215 @ Aug 10 2008, 08:39 PM)
what alot of posters on here don't seem to realise is that this could be the begginings of WW3.
Yup.
QUOTE(tristan215 @ Aug 10 2008, 08:39 PM)
what alot of posters on here don't seem to realise is that this could be the begginings of WW3.
Anytime something war related happens, its automatically a sign of WW3..
sorry but I don't buy it this time
Russia warns Turkey:
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/home/96...244&sz=3441
Views expressed by one of Senator Obama's foreign policy advisors:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-garde...i_b_118029.html
This isn't the start of WWIII even remotely. Imo, we're seeing the end of one historical era and the beginning of a new era.
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/home/96...244&sz=3441
Views expressed by one of Senator Obama's foreign policy advisors:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-garde...i_b_118029.html
This isn't the start of WWIII even remotely. Imo, we're seeing the end of one historical era and the beginning of a new era.
Its best to leave it to Russia and Georgia to settle there differences. The more nations that get involved the worse things will get.
And Russias fighting in Georgia will make there own Russian Republics think twice before trying to leave the Russian Federation.
The Russians are using the Roki tunnel which connects South Ossetia in Georgia with North Ossetia in Russia. Georgia says it was destroyed. Russia says no. Seems there are only three passes from Russia into Georgia.
Roki pass during winter:
Roki tunnel: 
And Russias fighting in Georgia will make there own Russian Republics think twice before trying to leave the Russian Federation.
The Russians are using the Roki tunnel which connects South Ossetia in Georgia with North Ossetia in Russia. Georgia says it was destroyed. Russia says no. Seems there are only three passes from Russia into Georgia.
Roki pass during winter:
Roki tunnel:
QUOTE(asean.asia @ Aug 10 2008, 01:43 PM)
Russia should go all the way and annex Georgia.
Seems to me that's the next step. Since Boris Yetsin stepped down, Russia has been inching back toward old Soviet mentality. As president, Putin surrounded himself with former KGB associates and hand-picked his successor, then was appointed Prime Minister. Don't forget the poisonings of politcal enemies and other tactics that harken back to the good old days.
It's would be like the alcoholic son of a former CIA boss being "elected" president of the United States...crap.
QUOTE(asean.asia @ Aug 10 2008, 01:43 PM)
Russia should go all the way and annex Georgia.
Why?
QUOTE(baal @ Aug 10 2008, 08:31 PM)
... The ethnic Georgian residents of the two provinces were ethnically cleansed in the first round of this conflict in 1992.
I'll be curious from what sources you got this from. Thanks.
QUOTE(Henry123 @ Aug 11 2008, 05:03 AM)
I'll be curious from what sources you got this from. Thanks.
There are claims of ethnic cleansing on both sides. But from what I've read the 1991 population of South Ossetia was about 30% ethnic Gerogian. Today it seems that only around 2000 Georgians live in South Ossetia. The Georgian population of South Ossetia dwindled between the 1992 and current rounds of this conflict during which time the region was under the physical control of the Russian Army and the rump South Ossetian government.
http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/publi...UNPAN019224.pdf
http://www.caucasus.dk/chapter4.htm
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/farlio/67...83540/?src=hsrs
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/russia/art...s/20080810.aspx
Of course china is at russia's side, what happens in the past in that region is irrelevant to china, what important is that the US has been making trouble around the world using small countries like Georgia, under the name of of democracy, whatever they do is OK. By giving them military and political support, there small countries sometimes lose their head and take huge risks, I was always afraid that the taiwanese president would be the first one to make such mistakes and cause a large war, now it's only lucky that it happened in Georgia. But this kind of thing was bound to happen is for sure.
After Russia killed this Georgia chicken, other monkeys would think twice before doing stupid things.
After Russia killed this Georgia chicken, other monkeys would think twice before doing stupid things.
QUOTE(xuanzang @ Aug 11 2008, 10:24 AM)
Of course china is at russia's side,...
Sources?
The Russians have expanding out of the autonomous regions into Georgia proper. They are probably going
to capture has much of Georgia proper so to have a better position during the talks. They will probaby leave Georgia proper
after South Ossetia and Abkhazia get a good deal from Georgia. Note: They say the Russians might have taken or near the
City of Gori. Stalin was from Gori. He was Georgian not Russian.
to capture has much of Georgia proper so to have a better position during the talks. They will probaby leave Georgia proper
after South Ossetia and Abkhazia get a good deal from Georgia. Note: They say the Russians might have taken or near the
City of Gori. Stalin was from Gori. He was Georgian not Russian.
QUOTE(baal @ Aug 11 2008, 10:56 AM)
There are claims of ethnic cleansing on both sides. But from what I've read the 1991 population of South Ossetia was about 30% ethnic Gerogian. Today it seems that only around 2000 Georgians live in South Ossetia. The Georgian population of South Ossetia dwindled between the 1992 and current rounds of this conflict during which time the region was under the physical control of the Russian Army and the rump South Ossetian government.
http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/publi...UNPAN019224.pdf
http://www.caucasus.dk/chapter4.htm
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/farlio/67...83540/?src=hsrs
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/russia/art...s/20080810.aspx
http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/publi...UNPAN019224.pdf
http://www.caucasus.dk/chapter4.htm
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/farlio/67...83540/?src=hsrs
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/russia/art...s/20080810.aspx
Thanks for the links.
I dont know if that it means there was actually "ethnic cleansing" of Georgians in Ossetia. (I take "ethnic cleansing" to be a rather strong term.) It seems many Georgians has left due to war conflict and not necessarily because of actual ethnic cleansing from what I'm reading.
(my 2 cents here)
QUOTE(baal @ Aug 10 2008, 08:31 PM)
As a matter of logic America can hardly object to the residents of South Ossetia and Abkazia seeking independence from Georgia because America recognized the independence of the break away Serbian province of Kosovo in February of this year.
True.
Infact I dont think they even publicly acknowledge their existence. They certainly are not publicly defending their independence from Georgia thats for sure.
QUOTE(baal @ Aug 10 2008, 08:31 PM)
Russia strongly opposed Kosovan independence from Serbia, and the dismemberment of the territorial integrity of any and all internationally recognized nation-states. However, Russia's current actions in Georgia effectively undercut any logical argument it has against Kosovan independence, and legitimizes the aspirations of the Chechans and others for independence from Russia. It is simply a return to 19th century style coercive great power politics.
I think Russia is following America's footstep (regarding America's support of Kosovo independence) in Ossentia & Abkazia as a way to mock and point out America's own hypocrasy.
"If America can support Kosovo independence we too can also support Ossentia & Abkazia independence"
QUOTE(Henry123 @ Aug 11 2008, 02:31 PM)
Thanks for the links.
I dont know if that it means there was actually "ethnic cleansing" of Georgians in Ossetia. (I take "ethnic cleansing" to be a rather strong term.) It seems many Georgians has left due to war conflict and not necessarily because of actual ethnic cleansing from what I'm reading.
(my 2 cents here)
True.
Infact I dont think they even publicly acknowledge their existence. They certainly are not publicly defending their independence from Georgia thats for sure.
I think Russia is following America's footstep (regarding America's support of Kosovo independence) in Ossentia & Abkazia as a way to mock and point out America's own hypocrasy.
"If America can support Kosovo independence we too can also support Ossentia & Abkazia independence"
I dont know if that it means there was actually "ethnic cleansing" of Georgians in Ossetia. (I take "ethnic cleansing" to be a rather strong term.) It seems many Georgians has left due to war conflict and not necessarily because of actual ethnic cleansing from what I'm reading.
(my 2 cents here)
True.
Infact I dont think they even publicly acknowledge their existence. They certainly are not publicly defending their independence from Georgia thats for sure.
I think Russia is following America's footstep (regarding America's support of Kosovo independence) in Ossentia & Abkazia as a way to mock and point out America's own hypocrasy.
"If America can support Kosovo independence we too can also support Ossentia & Abkazia independence"
America and Russia are each caught in contradictions. But America has no seccessionist movement. If South Ossetia and Abkhazia should be able to escape Georgian sovereignty what legal grounds do the Russians have to argue that Chechnya should not be entitled to escape Russian sovereignty?
Those who contend that China is on Russia's side may be right, but they have yet to post an official Chinese Govt. link that substantiates their contention. If the PRC does openly take Russia's side in this conflict the Chinese will be accepting the legal principle that a separate ethnic group in a designated territory under Chinese sovereignty or claim of sovereignty should be entitled to seccession if it so chooses. Such a position might legally undercut China's claims to Xinjiang, Tibet, Aksai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh. It's also my understanding that Taiwan has a substantial indigenous population which may not consider itself Chinese. The potential for policy contradictions abounds.
It is within the realm of possibility that the world is on the verge of a return to an earlier era of history. That's what makes this entire matter so interesting.
Its hard for me to feel sorry for Georgia right now because they were the ones that instigated this whole mess. And whats more Im watching CNN and CBC and NBC right now and not one of these newstations has acknowledged that fact. All they care about showing is the part where russia is rolling into south ossetia with their tanks. I do believe that russia should immediately ceasefire but for god sakes if the west is really the fair and just nation they make themselves out to be then they should be reporting this from a neutral standpoint with ALL the facts presented and not just the ones there interested in promoting. Absolute BS
QUOTE(education @ Aug 11 2008, 04:30 PM)
Its hard for me to feel sorry for Georgia right now because they were the ones that instigated this whole mess. And whats more Im watching CNN and CBC and NBC right now and not one of these newstations has acknowledged that fact. All they care about showing is the part where russia is rolling into south ossetia with their tanks. I do believe that russia should immediately ceasefire but for god sakes if the west is really the fair and just nation they make themselves out to be then they should be reporting this from a neutral standpoint with ALL the facts presented and not just the ones there interested in promoting. Absolute BS
How is the Canadian media reporting the inception of hostilities?
lol
Surprisingly enough the same way CNN is reporting it. They show clips of just the georgian forces being devasted and how there quote on quote invading Tbilisi and trying to station enough troops there to occupy it. They had an audio clip in which the georgian president said that he sent a cease fire to russia while the whole time neglecting to mention that they were the ones that attacked south ossetia first.
QUOTE(baal @ Aug 11 2008, 07:50 PM)
How is the Canadian media reporting the inception of hostilities?
QUOTE(education @ Aug 11 2008, 05:03 PM)
Surprisingly enough the same way CNN is reporting it. They show clips of just the georgian forces being devasted and how there quote on quote invading Tbilisi and trying to station enough troops there to occupy it. They had an audio clip in which the georgian president said that he sent a cease fire to russia while the whole time neglecting to mention that they were the ones that attacked south ossetia first.
Ceasefire my @$$. That guy signed a ceasefire with Russia just hours before his military forces started bombarding innocent civilians in S.Ossetia. It's quite unpredictable wether he is trying to surrender or just playing another trick; but either way, Russian Spetsnaz and FSB Operatives are justified in pursueing him for commiting unprovoked crimes killing ~2,000 civilians in South Ossetia.
Screw the BBC, they suck: http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9783
QUOTE
Media Disinformation: BBC distorts the News from the Georgia Region
As usual, the BBC is twisting and distorting the news coming out of the Georgia region. We keep being told that around 1500 have been killed in Georgia, the inference being that this has resulted from Russian bombing.
Not so, the casualties are in Ossetia.
While the Ossetians claimed over 1000 dead the BBC neither reported this or any newsreel coming out of Ossetia showing the destruction caused by the Georgian shelling of the breakaway republic.
All we are getting is one-sided reports of the destruction being caused by the Russians.
Unlike News 24 which is its international news carrier, the BBC website does make some mention of Ossetian casualties:
"We left our town because the situation there is worse than anything I've seen in 18 years of conflict. Houses are being hit by rockets and heavy artillery, aircraft are bombing the roads."
Since yesterday, Russia Today was reporting the complete destruction of Ossetia's capital by Georgian shelling. Again, the destruction of the Ossetian capital was never reported by the BBC.
Last Friday, RIA Novosti reported that Ossetia was claiming over 1000 dead:
"Over 1,000 civilians have been killed as the result of an attack by Georgia on the capital of its breakaway republic of South Ossetia, the North Ossetian nationalities minister said Friday.
According to the South Ossetian information and press committee, the number of fatalities is estimated, according to preliminary information, at over 1,000," Teimuraz Kasayev said."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...va&aid=9773
Sometime after mid-day today I tried unsuccessfully to access the Russia Today website for further information. Whether this is because of heavy traffic or because the website is being blocked by someone it is difficult to tell. I experienced the very same problem trying to access the RIA Novosti website.
Meanwhile, a BBC News 24 reporter, Lyse Doucet, tried to suggest that Russia had attacked Abkhazia by sending troops into that breakaway republic! That was soon put into doubt by another BBC reporter from Moscow who speculated that the sending of Russian troops into Abkhazia was not an attack but intended to protect its citizens and holiday-makers there.
On Saturday, China's Xinhua news service reported, "Abkhazia launches operation to force Georgian troops out" and "Georgia defeats Abkhazia's attacks". And previous news from Russia Today had announced Abkhazia's attack on Georgia. So was the BBC's Doucet confused or deliberately confusing the facts?
What is clear, however, is that the BBC is giving carte blanche to the Georgian point-of-view to be aired on its services while nothing whatsoever is being heard from the Ossetian side. The BBC's repetitive playing of a statement by George Bush, given several days ago, without balancing these against statements from the Russian side indicates where the BBC is coming from.
The contrast between the brazenly pro-US, pro-Georgian views being put out on BBC News 24 and the BBC website is to be noted whilst a more balanced assessment has been published by Richard Seymour of Lenin's Tomb. He, like me, believes that the BBC is deliberately confusing the issue. I'm sure we'll get much more of that from the BBC:
"Incidentally, just so that this point isn't lost in the deliberately confusing reportage. Yes, Russian jets are attacking Georgian targets and killing civilians. Yes, the reported civilian casualties "on both sides" is reported to be over 2,000. What is quite often not stated or just gently skated over in the reporting, so laden with images of Georgian dead and wounded, is that the estimate of 2,000 civilian deaths comes from the Russian government and it applies overwhelmingly to the Georgian attacks on South Ossetia on Friday.
In fact, this is the basis for Vladimir Putin's claims of a "genocide" against South Osettians by the Georgians (is he deliberately referencing the ICTY judgment about Srebrenica here?). The Georgian side, by contrast, claims 129 deaths of both soldiers and civilians. So, if Russian figures are good enough to reference, why is the source of the figures and their context obscured? Why is being made to look as if Russian forces are behind most of those alleged deaths? Doesn't this just amount to a whitewash of the actions of the Georgian army in South Ossetia? And why not mention 30,000 refugees too?" http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/08/put...s-probably.html
As usual, the BBC is twisting and distorting the news coming out of the Georgia region. We keep being told that around 1500 have been killed in Georgia, the inference being that this has resulted from Russian bombing.
Not so, the casualties are in Ossetia.
While the Ossetians claimed over 1000 dead the BBC neither reported this or any newsreel coming out of Ossetia showing the destruction caused by the Georgian shelling of the breakaway republic.
All we are getting is one-sided reports of the destruction being caused by the Russians.
Unlike News 24 which is its international news carrier, the BBC website does make some mention of Ossetian casualties:
"We left our town because the situation there is worse than anything I've seen in 18 years of conflict. Houses are being hit by rockets and heavy artillery, aircraft are bombing the roads."
Since yesterday, Russia Today was reporting the complete destruction of Ossetia's capital by Georgian shelling. Again, the destruction of the Ossetian capital was never reported by the BBC.
Last Friday, RIA Novosti reported that Ossetia was claiming over 1000 dead:
"Over 1,000 civilians have been killed as the result of an attack by Georgia on the capital of its breakaway republic of South Ossetia, the North Ossetian nationalities minister said Friday.
According to the South Ossetian information and press committee, the number of fatalities is estimated, according to preliminary information, at over 1,000," Teimuraz Kasayev said."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...va&aid=9773
Sometime after mid-day today I tried unsuccessfully to access the Russia Today website for further information. Whether this is because of heavy traffic or because the website is being blocked by someone it is difficult to tell. I experienced the very same problem trying to access the RIA Novosti website.
Meanwhile, a BBC News 24 reporter, Lyse Doucet, tried to suggest that Russia had attacked Abkhazia by sending troops into that breakaway republic! That was soon put into doubt by another BBC reporter from Moscow who speculated that the sending of Russian troops into Abkhazia was not an attack but intended to protect its citizens and holiday-makers there.
On Saturday, China's Xinhua news service reported, "Abkhazia launches operation to force Georgian troops out" and "Georgia defeats Abkhazia's attacks". And previous news from Russia Today had announced Abkhazia's attack on Georgia. So was the BBC's Doucet confused or deliberately confusing the facts?
What is clear, however, is that the BBC is giving carte blanche to the Georgian point-of-view to be aired on its services while nothing whatsoever is being heard from the Ossetian side. The BBC's repetitive playing of a statement by George Bush, given several days ago, without balancing these against statements from the Russian side indicates where the BBC is coming from.
The contrast between the brazenly pro-US, pro-Georgian views being put out on BBC News 24 and the BBC website is to be noted whilst a more balanced assessment has been published by Richard Seymour of Lenin's Tomb. He, like me, believes that the BBC is deliberately confusing the issue. I'm sure we'll get much more of that from the BBC:
"Incidentally, just so that this point isn't lost in the deliberately confusing reportage. Yes, Russian jets are attacking Georgian targets and killing civilians. Yes, the reported civilian casualties "on both sides" is reported to be over 2,000. What is quite often not stated or just gently skated over in the reporting, so laden with images of Georgian dead and wounded, is that the estimate of 2,000 civilian deaths comes from the Russian government and it applies overwhelmingly to the Georgian attacks on South Ossetia on Friday.
In fact, this is the basis for Vladimir Putin's claims of a "genocide" against South Osettians by the Georgians (is he deliberately referencing the ICTY judgment about Srebrenica here?). The Georgian side, by contrast, claims 129 deaths of both soldiers and civilians. So, if Russian figures are good enough to reference, why is the source of the figures and their context obscured? Why is being made to look as if Russian forces are behind most of those alleged deaths? Doesn't this just amount to a whitewash of the actions of the Georgian army in South Ossetia? And why not mention 30,000 refugees too?" http://leninology.blogspot.com/2008/08/put...s-probably.html
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