i saw this article on muay lao, this article is really interesting. especially the bit where they talk about pradal saray. this is from the head of the muay lao association. i don't think we will ever hear the thai say something like that.haha. i always believe in a sovannah phoum boxing federation that incorporated khmer, thai, lao & burma. where kickboxing is a major spectator sport. the idea of this federation is to create a competition where these four countries could compete with out any politics involve, just friendly competitions. there would be rules, regulations & a sovannah phoum belt that fighters can go for. just like in western boxing with it federations & association. just gotta get those burmese boxers wearing boxing gloves. they're use to fighting with out gloves.

i think this would be great for all countries involve especially financialy, & the fight fans will have great fights to watch. the money from this competition will greatly help fighters in all the countries. i mean they are risking life & limb stepping in to that ring, so they should be rewarded accordingly. before 1975 khmer & thai fighters use to fight each other all the time, but then the war happen & that stop for a while. but now it's just not the same, we'll be lucky to see fights like that any more. but hey it's just a dream for me, but i hope to see something like that soon. I don't see why a sovannah phoum boxing federation can't happen.

Muay Lao, The Forgotten Art of Kickboxing

Antonio Graceffo

“You can gain extra power on your kicks by throwing your kicking arm down, but you need to protect your face with a cross arm defense.” Explained Adjarn Ngern, at the national kick boxing stadium in Vientiane, Lao.

In Tae Kwan Do and a lot of other kicking arts, the right hand comes down when you kick. This is the moment when a good boxer should step in and punch the kicker in the face. Adjarn Ngern was the first person ever to show me the cross arm defense, basically wrapping your free arm across your face to cover up when you kick. This gives you safety and power.

It was my first day of learning Muay Lao and I wondered what else they had to offer.

For years I had been training off and on in Thailand and Cambodia. I had heard that the national sport in Lao was called Muay Lao, but I didn’t know anyone who had actually gone there for training.

Lao is a sleepy country. The population is less than six million and nearly all of the development is in the capitol, Vientiane, which is a cute, peaceful city which feels like a small town in the US from the 1950s. Apart from the docile feeling in the air, Lao is surprisingly good for training. There is a weight lifting gym located in a tenement block, beside the national sports stadium, where you can do your strength training for a small donation of fifty cents per day. You can get a bed in a dormitory for $3 a day or stay in a hotel, as I do, private room, TV, cable, hot water, private bath, and air-conditioning, for $12 per night. Food is excellent in Lao, French, Thai, Chinese, Indian, Lao or western, and most meals in a restaurant will cost you about $2.50. You could probably live even cheaper if you wanted to eat the street food which would probably run you less than a dollar per meal. In Lao, they accept US dollars, Thai Baht, or their local currency, Kip. Muay Lao training costs 200 thai Baht, about $6 USD per session, for private training.

The travel guides were all dead wrong about the Muay Lao training. Most books said it was held at the national sports stadium in Vientiane. Actually, the Muay Lao training is held at the National Muay Lao stadium, which is located about fifteen or twenty minutes outside of the city. The stadium boasts a full size ring, a row of kick bags, and a row of uppercut bags mounted on the wall. The coaches are excellent in the ring working the pads with you.

Adjarn Ngern, the head coach of the Lao National Muay Lao Team, told me that Muay Lao is a much smaller sport in Lao than is Muay Thai in Thailand. Professional fights are only held in the National Stadium twice per month. There are only a handful of registered professional fighters in the whole country.

“How is Muay Lao different than Muay Thai?” I asked.

“It’s exactly the same.” Said the Adjarn.

“Cambodians are angry abut the name Muay Thai. They feel they invented kickboxing and it should be called by the Cambodian name, Bradal Serey, not Muay Thai. What do you think of that?”

Without a second’s hesitation he answered, “Muay Thai was invented in Cambodia, but Thailand has the money and got famous.”

The Adjarn had me start with warm up exercise, a very complete stretching routine which covered all parts of the body, especially the neck and shoulders where injuries can occur in kick boxing.

He watched me shadow boxing for a few minutes then asked, confused “Do you also kick?” I think your fist martial art stays with you forever. You can take the boy out of Brooklyn, but you can’t take the Brooklyn out of the boy. No matter how long I train in Asia, I will always look like a boxer or street fighter.

We readjusted my stance. He didn’t want me to hold my hands next to my face like I do in boxing. Instead, he wanted the lead hand out in front and a bit lower than what I do for boxing. He also didn’t want the hands touching my face in case I was punched or kicked and it would force me to hit myself.

Next, we worked combinations on the uppercut bag one, two, and upper cut switching off left hand upper cut and right hand upper cut. He was excellent about correcting my form while I trained. Adjarn made me turn out my back foot on straight punches, and go up on my toes at impact. On the Upper cut, he also had me up on my toes, and made me turn my heel in.

We transitioned to kicks, on the bag. The important point which he kept stressing here was to get up on the toes of your base foot, and rotate the foot with the kick. Next, you must be careful to twist your hip and butt into the kick. The leg must travel parallel to the ground, and strike at an almost ninety degree angle, kicking IN not UP like in a Tae Kwan Do kick. Of course, in Muay Lao, like in Muay Thai, the roundhouse strikes with the shin.

Other combinations we worked on required me to kick off the front leg. A lot of teachers tell you to hop, scoot the front leg back, then kick with the front leg. Adjarn Ngern wanted me to minimize this hopping and leg shuffling. He told me to only to slide my left leg back slightly, then kick off of it. The right leg didn’t really move at all. It felt awkward at first, but it was a good technique. It was faster and less exhausting than the more common hop and shuffle. It just took a lot of practice for me to get it. To save even more time, he showed me that when the left leg hit, instead of bringing it back, just bring it straight down to the ground. Now you are in close so immediately throw an overhand elbow with the right arm.

With the knee kick, Adjarn Ngern always wanted to lead hand straight out. You could use this hand to measure distance, and time your strike. When your left hand just about makes contact with the opponent, step in and decimate him with your right knee. The extended arm is also a good defensive tactic. This way if your opponent takes this opportunity to throw an elbow or a punch, you could catch it with your lead hand, long before it hits you. In fact, you could catch/deflect his elbow with your floating lead hand, and still complete your knee strike. In that instance, the power would be multiplied by the fact that your opponent would be coming forward with his own strike. This would be one of those knees to the solar plexus which could end a fight.

Once again, when reaching out with your left/lead hand, you could either use your right hand to do the cross face defense, as you did in the kick, or you could throw the right hand down and back to add extra power to the knee. The lead hand can be used to grab the back of the opponent’s head and pull him into the knee strike. And remember to go up on the toes of the base leg to get those last few extra inches of extension and power.

After you have thrown the knee, you can step trough with an elbow because you have already closed the distance.

To help me get up on my toes and swing my hips, the coach and one of the fighters stood behind me, twisting my legs and hips and trying to get my position right. It was a lot to remember, and there was nothing natural about having two men twisting and prodding my body while I practiced. It was like a dance lesson gone wrong.

Adjarn had me hold the bag and do left right knee combinations, fast. But, he kept stressing that each of the knees had to be a real technique, a solid knee strike. Most people who practice the fast alternating knees on the bag just barely touch the bag with each knee, then shuffle and throw the next one. But this type of exercise has nothing to do with real fighting. It’s not just aerobics. In a fight every technique must be right. Every knee strike must count.

Blocking, the knee can be used several different ways. One common option is to block a kick by brining the knee straight up, and allowing your shin to hit the opponent’s shin as he kicks. A more offensive block is to quickly raise your knee higher than the attacker’s kicking leg, and bring you knee straight down into his leg, hitting him with your knee on his thing, just above his knee. This could render his leg useless for the rest of the fight. Once, again, after you have blocked, you have already closed distance, so the quickest follow up is to bring your leg straight back to the floor and step in with a close elbow.

Some coaches tell you to knee strike with your foot at a 90 degree angle. Other coaches tell you to point your foot at the floor. Both camps claim that they get more power. I don’t think there is a clear answer on which is better. This coach wanted the foot pointed at the ground.

With both a knee and a kick one more thing to remember is to arch your back to get the extra extension and power.

The coach taught me a fake. He did a shuffle, as if getting ready to kick with his left, lead foot, but instead, he threw a punch to the face.

“If you see the punch coming you can use Teep to protect yourself because your leg is longer than his arm.” Explained Adjarn Ngern, teaching the push kick.

When executing a push kick, the toes must be curled back and you strike with the ball of the foot. It is really hard to do because you have to develop the muscles in your feet. I can’t curl my toes back at will. Teep can also be done with the heel of the foot, but Adjarn Ngern claimed that it wasn’t as powerful. Muay Thai Boran practitioners find that the heel of the foot works just fine, however.

Very few people in Lao speak any English at all. Most people in Vientiane, including Adjarn Ngern, speak excellent Thai. So I was able to communicate with him in Thai. Thus far, I was impressed with Adjarn Ngern and how modern his training and thinking was. He was one of the few coaches I had worked with in Asia who could really analyze and discuss the sport of fighting. But his old-school training suddenly showed when he did the thing where he put rope in his mouth and used his neck to lift a heavy bucket full of cement.

He invited me to try it next, but one look at his used saliva dripping off the rope made me think twice about it.

“Aren’t you going to boil that rope?” I asked.

We opted to move on to the next phase of training instead.

In Muay Lao, as in Muay Thai the fighters often lock up, grappling. They grab each other behind the back of the neck and struggle to get dominance over the opponent. It is amazing how many throws a good fighter can do from this position. A significant component in learning Muay Lao is practicing grappling from the neck.

The goal in Muay grappling is to achieve the dominant position, which means, getting your two hands on the inside. The two fighters start with one in and one out, then they compete to get both hands inside. Once you have both hands inside, you can plant your elbows in your opponent’s chest, leverage his head and take him. In any type of fighting, if you want to control a man, grabbing the back of his neck is good because then you are pulling against muscle, not bone. Grabbing higher on the head gives you extended leverage, multiplying your power. Post your hips back, bend at the knees and bring your entire body weight to bear on his neck muscles.

Adjarn Ngern showed me how you could grab the back of the head with one hand and slide your hand down under the elbow for leverage. Then in one quick, jerking motion, you could pull down on the head and push up on the elbows at the same time and throw the man. In wrestling never let your legs stand square, one foot beside the other or you have no base no balance and can easily be knocked down.

Another exercise we worked on, one man held his hands behind his back and the other man tried to throw him. It is a simple technique, step out on the right, throw on the left. Step out on the left, throw on the right.

Training in Lao was just one more piece of the puzzle. The art of kickboxing is widely practiced in Lao, Cambodia, Thailand, and Burma. Only by training in all four countries could I get a good overview of the art. So, Burma was next.

Antonio Graceffo is an adventure and martial arts author living in Asia. He is the Host of the web TV show, “Martial Arts Odyssey,” The latest episode, shot inside of Burma with the Shan State Army rebels, is running on youtube, click here. http://youtube.com/watch?v=rCjNaHnk7Jw Antonio is the author of four books available on amazon.com Contact him Antonio@speakingadventure.com see his website www.speakingadventure.com

You should be carefull when posting an article like that. The truth can hurt some people here.

im just stating the facts, i mean when the muay thai people utterly dismiss any connection between muay thai & pradal saray. i just gotta throw in my 2 cents. does any other country have to fight for recognition for there native martial art. every body know's kung fu from china, karate from japan, silat from malay/indonesia. people know where these martial arts come from.
but because the muay thai people have told the whole world that muay thai is native to thailand & thai people & is not connected to pradal saray. im just like what the fudge. open your eyes man. give us some recognition. take roman-greco wrestling for example, it was greek who introduce it to the romans. thats why today it's called roman-greco. nobody lied about nothing, people know whats what. but the muay thai-pradal saray is rediculouse. credit is due where credit is deserved.

dont forget pradal saray been in thailand long before thai people settled in thailand.

Pradal Serey and Bokator are engraved on the walls of Angkor Wat, it's something we would never dismiss since it's part of our culture. This is something you must let alone because we cannot change the way how Siam people think and I truly believe there's no possibility of change for MOST of them.

If we cannot change Thai, then let our voice be heard instead. People will learn the truth in due time. I'm glad Laos are nothing like Thailand.

I just want to say thank u for sharing, I have repect toward Laos people because they never deny their history and they willing to tell the truth to public. Thais should not make fault claim toward something that they didn't create or build.

funny thing is some of thailand's top fighters are ethnic khmer like bukauw & jomhod. these days muay thai & pradal saray is seperated by borders & politics. that sad since it's the same thing, same sport. essan is the heart of muay thai, that where the thai top fighters are from. ethnic khmer people in thailand are among the top fighters in thailand like bukauw & jomhot. would'nt it be great to see the fights they use to have before 1975 between top fighters from thailand & khmer. those were the shizzle my nizzle.

check out this fight between buakaw vs jomhod, both ethnic khmer fighters from thailand. good fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY-TwOsiRl0

After all they have khmer blood in them, warrior blood.

so muay lao, srey pradal and muay thai are the same?

Quote: "Muay Thai was invented in Cambodia, but Thailand has the money and got famous," Adjarn Ngern, the head coach of the Lao National Muay Lao Team, answered without a second's hesitation.

This is priceless, folks. This is a precious support by the truthful speaking Lao head coach.

I honestly don't care what they are anymore... they are Thai nationals to me whether they are from Khmer Surin or whatsoever... I still see them sporting some shorts with Thai words on there along with them using the Thai style for kickboxing. The same goes for Tony Jaa why claim him as our own when he supports his nationality more. Until these guys can actually tell the world of what they truly are then maybe I would support these guys, but for the moment the answer is NO.

haha srey pradal. - . if buakaw was fighting eh putong, i 'll support khmer all the way. the fight be like kambo vs thailand. hehe

Please stop accusing us with false info... the history of Muaythai is not rely on the word of a Lao coach. The key word here is" Muay Lao is exactly like MuayThai".How could that be?

Even before the 1920s the art of muay thai was not the same as what you see today.During the Kaard Chueag Era their were various form of Muaythai from different regions.We still have prooves of all those styles.They're all differ in guards, footworks and striking techniques even the way they bind their fists were differ from each other.

"Gong Tanai Learg"(กอง ทนายเลือก) picked the best fighters to join them. The combination of all this regional styles; like muay Chaiya(South), muay Korat(Issan), muay Tasao(lower North), muay Jerng(North) and etc. combined to created today Muaythai.

And dude! can you find any art of fists binding called "kaard chuerg"(คาดเชือก)crafted on the wall of Angkor wat. Or the "art of two hand swords" which were commonly used during the war in Ayuttaya era.And also the weapon called "Mai Sork". these combat arts and weapons were tightly binded with the art of muythai.

Please check out the bass relief Bayon,ext.gal.,S side wing, lower level.Dufour 26. of Angkorian soldiers practiced their weapons and unarm combat arts. none of them look similar to muaythai, but more like khmer wrestling.

At list Malay gave Siamese credit called it as Tomoi , coz Siamese called the fight as "Tdee Muay' or "Toi Muay" before the word MuayThai ever exist., Toi Tdee(ต่อยตี) mean strike or hit. The act of rolled up the hair into a" rounded form "called "Muay" Pom (มวยผม)( "Pom" meaning "hair" in Thai.)

peace man, i just want to say again, all human beings fight the same you know. when we got to fight we punch, kick, elbow, knee etc... but it's the custom & tradition that make a martial art unique to a people or country. fist binding is done around the world it's not unique to any body. no body wants to get their hand broken haha, & yes pradal saray have always used bound fist it was the french that introduce the boxing glove & ring. oh the malay call it tomoi, have they been in contact with pradal saray khmer? if the malay respect it enough to call it tomoi, why don't the thai respect pradal saray enough to say it was a major part of their muay thai. pradal saray fighting were a major spectator sport in the khmer empire long before thai migrated in to the area.

why do muay thai have the same customs & tradition as khmer pradal saray. like the twai bong guem kru (wai kru in m.t) the pleing pradal (fight music) it's played using the same khmer instruments. did thai people have those customs & traditions in their muay thai before they migrated south in to the khmer empire. me personaly i don't think so, because none of those things is original thai culture, those things were adopted later on by the thai. if muay thai were native to thai people why must it have the same customs & traditions of the khmer pradal saray. my explanation is thai people adopted the fighting sport of pradal saray when they lived among khmer people in the empire. just like they adopted other aspects of khmer culture. pradal saray was popular among khmer people, i don't see why the thai did'nt like it as well.

1 more thing why is it that muay thai "appeared". when they were in thailand, after generations of living amongst khmer people. why was it not around in their homeland in southern china. peace man, can you honestly say there is no connection between muay thai & pradal saray. to me they are only separated by border & politics.

take burmese boxing, pretty much same fighting techniques as modern pradal saray but different customs & traditions. there was never much contact & influence between the 2 countries. but muay thai-pradal saray same customs, traditions. & thai people have always adopted khmer culture. join the dotted lines & see where it leads.

it's great what muay thai have done to make s.e.a fighting sport popular to the world. but don't go around saying false things about the sport. if khmer had nothing to say about muay thai, then we keep our mouth shut. but there is a link between the two sports that must be recognised & respected. would'nt anybody else do the same thing. americans would fight for their baseball & the english for their football. japanese their sumo.

First of all martial arts are not differentiated or catagolize by the ritual dace, but by the way they gaurd, stances, footwork and how they deliver their strikes. You must separate the ritual or religion believe from the art itself. As you can see many Farang learn Muaythai without the wai kru and the art still very effective. When my friend Kaoklai fought in K-1 he didn't do the wai kru neither.(I'm not gonna argue with U the origin of this ritual dace for now coz I don't have valid info.)

Second the "Tai" were the people from the Southern China, While Simese/ Thai are the hybrid of Tai Mon/Khmer Malay. Siamese of "Krugthep Dwaravati Sri Ayuttaya" were not just "Tai", but Tai,Mon/Khmer,Malay mixed as one. Siamese combat art happen when all this people group up together they inter-married and exchange their arts and cultures to form their own regional combats arts.
Unlike "Ikido" or "Judo" or "Taichi" each of this art were believe to be created by a master,muaythai was created by our hybrid ancestors thousand of years ago and keep on evolving through the battle fields and fighting arenas.

We never expect our combat art to be the same as a thousand of years ago.Our combat arts keep on evolving since then 'till now. Pls remember Ayuttaya was never once under Khmer Empire.

As I mention earlier:

Even before the 1920s the art of muay thai was not the same as what you see today.During the "Kaard Chueag Era"( fist binding) their were various forms of Muaythai from different regions.We still have prooves of all those styles.

They're all differ in guards, footworks and striking techniques even the way they bind their fists were differ from each other.

"Gong Tanai Learg"(กอง ทนายเลือก) picked the best fighters to join them. The combination of all this regional styles; like muay Chaiya(South), muay Korat(Issan), muay Tasao(lower North), muay Jerng(North) and etc. combined to created today Muaythai.

And how in the world does the art of Pradal serey,Muay Lao, Tomoi, Karate Kyukoshin, Sanshou Sanda,Burmese lethwae look exactly the same as muaythai.

Does it ever surprise you that Burma were not under the influence of Khmer,but how the hack their fighting arts look exactly like muaythai? How come recently every country around Thailand boarder have the art that look exactly like muaythai.Why Malaysia called this art as Tomoi. Seriously who's the victim here?

BTW when you're talking about the fist binding that was done all around the world, that proof to me , you don't have a clue about our combat art...

Well said.

Now you are just bull$hitting. Your country isn't that old but it seems like you reach down to the bottom pit of who made it, the Mon/Khmer while they still respectively had their own Kingdoms and use their history to justify the actual age of Siam.

Anyway don't preach to me about Muay Thai/Pradal Serey I could care less about the two arts. However, if you want to say Bokator is Thai (jokingly or not), we're going to have problems.

Bull $hitting?

I just striaghted out the fact of Siamese people.And gave credit to all ethnics that united together to created this art ;not only Mon/Khmer ,the Tai were here thousand of years ago and they do have their combat arts called Jerng and latter Sue Laarg heang along with them. Muay Jerng involved alots of elbow strikes and knee kicks. All of this elements binded and blended together to created our combat art.This art kept on evolving and developing for more than 700 years. If I didn't mention them,then I'm bull $hitting .

Bokator? You mean the art with an ancient name,but created by a Chinese Cambodian Hapkido master who said Tony Jaa use the "Bokator" in his movies?(sure sure since Jaa mixed MuayThai with Hapkido,Ikido, Jujitsu, Taekwondo,gymnastic and etc.)

Don't worry , just like you could careless of Muaythai,I could care less of that,too....

Hi PeaceMan. Please know that I have never "ACCUSE" any Thais of "Muy Thai" at all. I was just using the words of the Lao expert to support the Khmer assertion. That was all. Werent the Lao people the first ones to establish the Sukhothai and Ayuthaya? So I am sure the Lao people are knowledgeable about the Khmer military history and self-defense customs.



OK, PeaceMan, but for me I have never heard of it. You see I am a Ninja by trade. Muy Thai fighters can't never beat me, but a Khmer Bokator fighter can simply defeat me in an instance. Hahahha. By the way, "The Kaard Chueag" sounds like the Khmer word. Hhaha.



Wow. You do know a lot, PeaceMan. Lots of Khmer terms you are using there. Hhaha.



Yes Duuuude, I know that no such martial arts techniques described by you above, Dude, were ever found in Nanchao at all. Hahhaa.



Actually, everything you ever need to know was carved on the walls of Angkor Wat. Hahha.



Please enjoy your Thai martial arts, but don't forget its origin. Hhahah. By the way, I am a Ninja Tamo.

I'm not talking about who you gave credit to, but the actual age of Siam, since you say its 1000s years old .

Anyway I don't know where you got your information from but L'bokator is as ancient as Angkor. The legend behind the origin of the name started because a brave warrior defeated a lion (tao) from threatning a village by pounding it (bok). The village in where my mother was raised had a Bokator master. My uncle, my mother's younger brother wanted to be diciplined in the arts but was refused by the master. "Only those with the right heart can be taught this deadly fight art form". Not just anyone can learn Bokator becuase its an art mainly developed to kill, the same art used by the Angkorian soliders who waged war near barefisted (only armed with a Krama-Khmer scarf or Tombong-staff). I'd rather trust what the History Channel has to say than what any Thai person say about Khmer/Khom/Cambodia, including you.

Note, both Muay Thai and Pradal Serey are standardized sports. Meaning they differ from their traditional styles. Its interesting to note that although acharn seems to be much more common in Thai to refer to teacher, the ceremony of wai kru uses the word kru. Kru is not a Thai word nor is it even Khmer, its a Sanskrit word that has been Khmerized so the pronunciation becomes kru and not guru. In Khmer, the ceromony of thanking the teacher (thwai kru) uses kru and not achar or acharn. Don't you think if we borrowed the ceremony from the Thais, it would be called wai acharn instead of the thwai kru? This is simply because we can pronounce words that would dizzy your head.

I don't know claim to know all the points or methods in Pradal Serey, but Khmer wrestling is not the same as Bokator. Khmer wrestling is an entirely different sport, with different techniques. Pradal Serey is a striking sport. If you bothered to search all the bas-reliefs in the Bayon temple like I've have, you encounter very similar poses that you see in modern Khmer Khmer art of Bokator.







These looks like wrestling.







He was making a point why the ritual in which initiates the combat is so Khmer influenced.



Peaceman, unless your language is a creole don't try to claim anything mixed.



Are you serious? Ayutthaya was in fact part of the Khmer empire.



There are also various forms of khun Khmer.



Oh dear, you do know that Khmer influence permeates in places that was formerly part of or adjacent to the Khmer empire. Can you tell me why that all regions formerly under the Khmers have Khmer influence? Isn't it ironic that nearly all facets of central Thai culture is Khmer based? Isn't ironic that your dance, your writing, your architecture all derived from Khmer? Isn't also ironic that there are actually Khmer influence in the northern Tai tribes, like how they used the word suasdei is used by the Tai lues to mean welcome? Isn't it ironic that even the Burmese uses Khmer style gong circles?

I just striaghted out the fact of Siamese people.And gave credit to all ethnics that united together to created this art ;not only Mon/Khmer ,the Tai were here thousand of years ago and they do have their combat arts called Jerng and latter Sue Laarg heang along with them. Muay Jerng involved alots of elbow strikes and knee kicks. All of this elements binded and blended together to created our combat art.This art kept on evolving and developing for more than 700 years. If I didn't mention them,then I'm bull $hitting .

so basically peace man, what you saying is that muay thai in no way connected to modern pradal saray khmer. if thai were in thailand thousands of years ago, how come they only migrated south in to the khmer empire when the mongols were giving them trouble. the siam fought for the khmer imperial army, & i guess those troops were trained & armed by the khmer soldiers as well. they learned khmer weapons & tactics when they joined the khmer imperial army. would'nt this have influence thai martail arts in any way?. atleast you acknowledge that muay thai was creadted by other ethnic groups that were later adopted by the thai. but muay thai is the closest to pradal saray than any other art in the region. so would'nt that make pradal saray the biggest influence on muay thai "creation".

before 1975 fights between thai & khmer fighters happened all the time & they were big spectacles. back then clubs & promoters organised fights. with ethnic khmer in thailand having a major part in muay thai, it was easy to organised fights between the 2 countries. but from 1975 to 1979 there were no pradal saray. then from 1980 the vietnamese banned pradal saray fights. things had to go under ground. it was only when they left in the late 80's that it came back on the scene. but by then the muay thai coucil formed & muay thai spread to the world, with their own take on the histroy of muay thai. they kind of left out any connection to pradal saray khmer. but now khmer people are trying to speak our bit, shed some light on the whole thing. if people care or don't care about it, it's all good. atleast the word is out & people can make their own asumptions.

Learn the fact before you make anymore comment about us. Siamese and Thai use the word "Kru" for every teacher not just for muay. Ajarn is more formal or more higher respect than kru.Every teachers in school since kindergarten till highschool are normallt called Kru in Thai. While Ajarn is for the professor in university.

Our language is not mixed? Please...It's is so mixed just like us.



I don't know about you ,but for me this doesn't look like a kick boxing bout, it's more like a ritual dance or something. The evidence is the guy who kick his leg up in the air is holding a piece of instrument or something in both of his hands.



This is Bayon,ext.gal.,S side wing, lower level.Dufour 26., I talked about. This wall show the Ankorian praticing their combat arts both weapon and unarms combat.Which is more like Khmer wrestling.


The kingdom of "Krungthep Dwaravati Sri Ayuttaya" use to be part of Khmer Kingdom?!? LOLZ Since the Siamese established the Kingdom of "Ayuttaya".Not even once this Kingdom was under Khmer. Ayuttaya might lost the war with Burmese twice, but we definitely won back our victories within one life time in both incidents! Let me stop just here,about our expansion.


Anyway,I already point out the fact that each region of Thailand have different style and when they fought in the pass each of them use their own style.The style you see today is just the combination of all those styles merged together as one,but pradal serey look axactly like muaythai.Please...

And if the other country got this art from khmer, why did they called it the same way as Siamese,but not as Khmer. Why Lao called it "Muay".They also said "Tdee Muay or Toi Muay " and Malaysian called it "ToMoi" which came from the word "Toi Muay" or "Tdee Muay", too.









This are some of many guards and stances from the past ,which combined and developed to become today Muaythai.

The first group of "Tai"(not Thai) migrated into southeast Asia before any Mongol attacked.They were here thousand of years ago. This people mixed with the inhabitant for centuries and became Siamese people. Not just Tai nor Mon nor Khmer, but the hybrid Siamese. And by the middle of 13 century they established the kingdom of "Ayuttaya." That's why Laos keep on calling us "Siamese" not Tai, in general we are not white like the pure Tai or northern Laos and not as dark as Khmer, but the mixed of two.

They believe there're Siamese mercenary chief crafted on the Angkor wall; just like the Chinese mercenary, both have their own combat arts. And they should be good in combat,but I'm not closing the door that they could have influence each others Siamese and Angkorian.

Do you have any clips or photo of those matches in the 70s, I would love to see. Thanks in advance.

Its strange to see that acharn is the Thai pronunciation of achar and not achara.



Is it a creole? Does it borrow grammar from any other languages? Or just the words come from foreign languages? Ridiculous, if people went by your values than I guess Indonesia is heir to India, Arabia and so on and so forth.



Khmer wrestling is a wrestling sport, it involves getting down to the ground and actually wrestling. Please tell me how do Khmer wrestlers use weapons? That goes against the rules of Khmer wrestling itself.

Weapon fighting for war


Training, including the kick-stance and the grappling.




The kicking stance, he is apparently holding a club in battle with Rahu, a giant.





Ayyuthaya, like Sukhothai was a Khmer outpost until they broke away. I already told you that pradal serey has been standardized that is why they wear gloves on their hands. Maybe you don't realize that muay thai and pradal serey may be the same because they follow the same restrictions, but that muay boran and lbokator differ? Their movements are based on the old art of bokator, and the fact that Thailand has an art just like it isn't shocking.

Tell if the following is true or not

Thai script derives from Khmer
Thai dance derives from Khmer
Thai costumes derive from Khmer
Thai royal language derives from Khmer
Thai architecture derives from Khmer

How hard is it to believe what came from what?



The Lao call it muay because their language is related to yours. I remember hearing a Lao member saying that the Thai language is based of an old dialect of Lao, right? The Malaysian already acknowledge this a s Thai sport, that's hardly surprising given the fact that many northern Malays near the border with Thailand has historical interactions with them. However, doesn't it surprise you just the slightest that nearly everything in Thai culture came from Khmer?



Please top claiming mix ancestry because you're not mixed. You're a Tai speaking people speaking a tonal language. Khmer is not tonal. I'm sorry, but there are no Siamese influence in the Angkorian languages whatsoever. You know this if you dig deep enough into linguistics, and then you realize how high Khmer rank compared to the Siem language.

You did not expected the Siamese to suddenly appear around 700 years ago and right away established the Kingdom of Ayuttaya, which powerful enough to sacked Angkor, right?

You believe everything on Human weapon?

What ta heck! believe whatever you want , I already told you... same as you, I could careless of bokator.

Actually I didn't even want to argue anything, if you don't start a thread like this.

I think this should be my last post on this topic.

You do know that the system of governing in Ayyuthaya is basically a rip of the Khmer style government right? The king, or god king is the head of the empire. He has blah blah and blah blah blah.

If I go by your logic everything Khmer belong to Indian.blah blah blah blah blah.


PS. damn! you sound like a little boy. this is almost the same as when you show me those animals's head crowns and tried to make me believe they look similar as the Thai's head crown.(I'm talking about the Ganork head crown ) and the sabai of the holyman ( actually the crafted imitated of Bhuda meditated) and tried to tell me the Angkorian ladies wore those costume.

Dude, I can't argue with you anymore, good bye.

It took a long time to prove to you for you to accept that the Thai script is a simplified version of Khmer. Guess must be that Thai education you have.

The crowns served as the prototype for modern Thai crowns. Their main difference? Modern crowns doesn't connect at the back and the center spire is taller. That's why you fail time and time again to prove that the Sabai is Thai, since it is polysyllabic and the Khmer uses the suffixes ro & so.

Find me one post where I said that. LOL, Peaceman you're pathetic. That's why we always have over your head that we can rid ourselves of any Thai influence we want, but if your rid Thai or Khmer influence you would be living in tribes on mountains.

Siamese mercenaries's head crown


Siamese/Thai head crown.



Without Khmer art there were D'varavadhi and Srivijai art.LOL

too bad the top of the crown might be broken on this on.LOL J/K

Why you coming at me like that for? The Burmese were powerful enough to swallow Ayuttaya, had it not been for Khmer to help their lovely brother who was in danger, you wouldn't exist, right?

Human Weapon added more details to what my mom talked about. I believe what my mom taught me about Bokator. Antonio Grefficio has more sense than what you claim and he is an educated guy.

i was fortunate enough to study the original/ancient pradal saray that was use by ancient khmer warriors. the original pradal saray was a complete fighting system. it had striking(punches,elbows,knees & kicks) grappling/wrestling & ground fighting, it was basically doing what you had yo do to win a fight on the battle field. if u lost u died, if u win u lived. khmer are the only martail art in south east asia to have grappling/wrestling ground fighting as far as i can see.. when i was training 70% of what i learned was grappling/wrestling & ground fighting. modern pradal saray lost elements of the grappling/wrestling & ground fighting. wat was left was just the stand up techniques. it became more of a sport.

khmer martial art can be known by many names. but most commonly KUN KHMER BORAN is used. my kru just called it pradal saray (freestyle fighting) a new school of khmer martial art was started by kru san kim sean & he decided to call it BOKATAO. bokatao is the stick fighting in kun khmer, i do'nt know where kru san got this fighting lion crap for bokatao . aint no lion in kambo brother haha. bokatao is kru san kim sean version of kun khmer boran. i respect the guy for trying to spread & preserve kun khmer, even though he does it in his own special way.

peace man, at least you acknowledge that pradal saray khmer "mite" of have had an influence on muay thai. but dam i don't why anybody should have to fight for recognition of their native martial art. especially khmer with the great civilisation we had, you would think we would have a great martial art tradition as well.

dude kun khmer is thousands of years old, older than any angkor period. khmer civilisation is over 2 thousand yeras old. having well trained & well armed warriors was an important fact for any civilisation to survive that long. why is it that actual evidence of muay thai is less than a than 700 year old. there some nice black & white photoes of muay thai but nothing older like carvings on ancient temples . modern pradal saray only came about when the french introduce boxing gloves & boxing ring. it became more of a sport, seperate from from the pure combat art of ancient pradal saray boran. this is what i believe the thai adopted & called it muay thai. it's normal for people to adopt sports they liked. the whole world adopted soccer from the english & basketball from the u.s.a. is it hard to believe that the thai could of liked pradal saray khmer & wanted to get in to it as well. i got old news papers clipping from french indo-china magazines about pradal saray matches, & also old news paper clippings from when a chinese kung fu team came to kambo in 1962 & got their @$$ kick . yeah boy. you should read an article on kru imry ban (the atomic knee) former khmer champion. his story was what it was like before 1975 in the fight game. he opened a pradal saray gym in long beach in 1986.

You know I now wonder too, how is there a native Khmer word for lion if lions don't exist in SEA? Bokator mentions referrence to a Lion, but so does "Bort songha tao leng kantoy" which is a style/variety of Khmer poetry classified by the bort បទ. Anyway are you saying I've been lied to ? What kru Sean does (as you mentioned with bokator) is what I do with Khmer cooking. I change up the cooking style and cooking method (but leaving the ingredients authentic) in my favor and call it Khmer food. Does this mean what Kim Sean and I do are less Khmer? Because I use western (French style) training and methods of cooking to cook "Khmer food" I learn from my mom.

Its take people with balls to admitted the truth, thai don't have balls , a matter of facts some of the men and boy are transforming themselves into lady boys. I recently saw a news about thai boys are identifying themselves as a female gender at an early age. They even have seperated washroom for the non straight too. Its very weird i find.

But would it be the same? If you haven't realized, the style of crowns on the Borobudur dates back nearly five hundred years before the Thais were a nation. If also didn't realize, the Srivijayan style of art and architecture is not fall off southern/eastern Indian styles. It is also isn't helpful to rely on a Khmer carved sculpture. Plus, the skirts, shirts and belts of these merchants reak of Khmer influence. The belt has a center with some sort of four point flower and along it goes out what is like overlapping petals. These motifs are also used on Khmer apsaras.


Ancient Khmer style. They served the basis of modern Khmer styles.

Thank you very much for showing everyone the different between the Thai head crown and Khmers one.

All the photos of the Khmer crown you've shown fit with this illustration.



As I've show you before; this is Siamese/Thai crown:













Here the D'varavadhi and Srivijai's crowns.










This types of crowns were/are not obligate only to Khmer arts, but D'varavadhi ,Srivijai and etc.

The ancient style shirts and patterns ,also those water vessels(or barge) were wore and used by the Cham,too. Actulally you should learn to respect others, 'Coz Khmer also got influenced by many other kingdoms in the past, that's how khmer arts evolves through to become their own art in each periods.You arrogrant and irnorant U.

edited: add picts

Siamese mercenaries's head crown

goombaking, you have'nt been lied to. kun khmer boran has armed & un-armed combat. in armed combat, there is sword, spear, long staff, short staff(stick fighting), dagger & bow & arrow. every khmer warrior trained in these. the stick fighting is called bok(hit) katao(name of fighting sticks). when kru san kim sean decided to start up his own kun khmer school. he decided to use the name bokatao to represent his brand of kun khmer. it's all good what he does, but he gotta tell every one that this is his version of kun khmer. but he trying to promote his bokatao as the one & true, original kun khmer. when it's not. it's his own school of kun khmer.

i respect him for what he trying to do. making kun khmer accessible to any one by forming his bokatao school. coz back in the days, if you wanted to study kun khmer, you had to find a kru that would accept you. but then the war happenned & many kru were lost. a school had to be formed that brought all of the kun khmer style under 1 roof, to keep it alive & that is what kru san is trying to do. at his bokatao school they teach pradal saray, grappling/wrestling, ground fighting & weapons. atleast now if you want to learn kun khmer there is kun khmer school like bokatao where you can join a club to learned kun khmer.

i would'nt mind taking on fighters from the bokatao school. from what i've seen they look flash with their showie kun khmer. but how will they go in a real freestyle fight.

peaceman, khmer respect cultures that have influence ours. we pay respect to the hindu & buddhist influences. unlike thai who respect every one elses influences on their culture except the khmer even though khmer is the major influence on thai culture . what is up wit that gee. who is being dis-respectful by trying to claim the khom is different to the khmer haha. i never understood this animosity the thai has towards us khmer.

Khom and Khamen...

Just look at my signature and you will find out what Khmer is along with that big looking thing there... Oh wait a minute it's even on Cambodia's flag too.

P.S. Another thing is that Preah Vihear dates back way before Angkor Wat and it's engraved with Khmer Scripts... sorry to say but Khom and Khamen are the same people until this day.

Back to the topic... I don't know about the fighting styles and such for both countries for me to have much say in this, but if Thailand can provide the most oldest carved inscriptions to prove they created the fighting style first then I will believe Thailand.

O.K. i do respect your sincerely reply...And I believe you do pratice the combat art. So you could see through those moves of bokators. I did sport muaythai for more than 8 years now(not for professional career,just a personal interest) and 2 years on traditional Chiaya style and abit of Korats 'coz I met Kru Aumnart the last student of Kru Bua(the last kru of the true Korat style).

That's how I see and understand the evolvement of today muaythai from the elements of each regional styles in the past.(Well my kru also keep alots of photo, article from the past.)That's why I'm certain that muaythai is definitely not a copy of praday serey.

P.S. OH! I forgot to reply on those Khom and Khmer issue.

The reason Thai use the word "Khom".

First of all, both Siamese and Lao called the acient Khmer as Khom.

Second:They believe Khom people are the people from India with Indian Bhramin king, not the inhabitant. They believe that all the technology,scripts and architecture are of the Khom. (I didn't say it's right or wrong just informing you the info.)

As a matter of fact; in general, modern history book and articles in thailand today, we now use the word "Khmean Boran" instead of Khom now.(not in an insulting way but that just how we pronounce ancient Khmer in Thai ).

Also in Thai dictionary If the word were modified from khmer or Pali or Sansakrit , they did gave the credits to them.

Don't rely your info online too much,man. As you can see ;if you did practice combat art in real life you could see through those propaganda .

Khom is used by Khmers too strangely enough. We refer to one old style of writing as Aksar Khom, but also use Aksar Mul.

Thank you for your info.

Peaceman:
Do you have any books on Muaythai history that states your claim about evolving and mixing of regional arts that formed modern Muaythai?

Nice Pics AppleP! Imma save some! And yes Bokatao which originated during the Angkor Empire was passed down for many generations also giving birth to the art of Pradal Serey which was also passed down for generations and influenced in to "MANY AREAS" Pradal Serey today is a ferocious and brutal art that has many alias lol, aka MT! So if you seen this art or have any tips please call 1-800-ARTORIGINS. This Art is dangerous and is equipped with elbows, knees, shins, Fist, and many more. This art is the child of Bokator, so looks young. This art has been running around Khmer, Thailand, Laos, and many more places. We need your help to find this art! And