The 215th Conference of Rulers, held at Istana Maziah, Kuala Terengganu, issued a special press statement on several matters enshrined in the Federal Constitution.
Following is the press statement in full.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"Press statement isued by Penyimpan Mohor Raja-Raja (Keeper of the Rulers' Seal) on the role of the Yang di-Pertuan Agong (the Supreme Ruler) and Raja-Raja Melayu (the Malay Rulers) regarding the special privileges, position, eminence or greatness of Raja-Raja Melayu (the Malay Rulers), Islam, Malay as the national language, the special position of the Malays, n genuine interests of the communities in accordance with the Constitution."
"The Raja-Raja Melayu (the Malay Rulers) who attended the meeting of the Conference of Rulers conferred on the issuing of this special joint press statement."
"The Raja-Raja Melayu hold the Constitutional role to safeguard the special privileges, position, eminence and greatness of the Raja-Raja Melayu, Islam as the official religion, Bahasa Melayu as the national language, n the genune interests of the other communities in Malaysia."
"The actions of certain quarters in disputing n questioning these matters, which formed the primary basis for the formation of Malaysia n are enshrined in the federal Constitution, had caused provocation n uneasiness among the people."
'In retaliation, several quarters particularly Malay leaders whether in the government or in NGOs, as well as individuals, had expressed their dissatisfaction n anger against those who had made the statements n reports n organised the forums."
"Among the reasons identified for these to hv occurred is the cursory (i.e. limited) knowledge of those concerned regarding the historical background as to why these provisions were enshrined in the Federal Constitution n the influence of their attempts to implicate the principles of impartiality n justice without regard for the historical background n social conditions of this country. Narrow political interests r also at cause."
"Unless this phenomenon is arrested immediately, it can lead to disunity n racial strife that can undermine the peace n harmony which has all this while brought progress, development n success to this nation."
"As such, it is necessary for the Majlis Raja-Raja to emphasise n remind all quarters of these constituional provisions besides giving emphasis to the assurance of safeguarding the genuine rights of other communities."
"It has to be emphasised that each provision in the Federal Constitution has undergone the process of discussion, consideration, consultation, sacrifice n compromise of the highest degree for what has been championed, discussed, considered, benefited from as well as agreed to by all quarters concerned, until the realisation of the provisions in the Federal Constitution which are known as the Social Contract."
"It is NOT proper to dispute n question this Social Contract n more so to subject it to a review or change because it is the PRIMARY BASIS of the formation of Malaysia. Therefore it is appropriate for the Raja-Raja Melayu to remind that there should NEVER be any attempt EVER to test n challenge isues related to the Social Contract."
"Truly, the leaders of the pre-independenc era were insightful, far-sighted. They brought along with them the Raja-Raja Melayu for the negotiations to claim independence. The Institution of the Rulers were retained legally enshrined in the Constitution of an independent Malaysia."
"The Institution of the Rulers was accorded eminence, was positioned at the APEX of government, as the head of the country n the states, as a protective umbrella, ensuring impartiality among the citizens. The Institution of the Rulers takes on the role of being a check-n-balance to untangle complications, if any."
"The Institution of the Rulers also call on Malays to be united to safeguard the privileges, position, eminence n greatness of the Raja-Raja Melayu, safeguard Islam, Bahasa Melayu as the national language, n the genuine interests of the other communities in Malaysia as enshrined in the Federal Constitution. It has to be EMPHASISED that THIS agenda is MORE IMPORTANT n FOREMOST than political or factional interests."
'Non-Malays should not harbour any apprehension or worry over their genuine rights because these rights r guaranteed under the Federal Constitution n provisions of the state constitutions of Malaysia contained in Article 153 of the Federal Constitution."
"It is hoped that with this emphasis, all confusion among the people regarding these matters can be contained n an atmosphere of peace, harmony n mutual respect can continue to exist among the people for the maintenance of ORDER in the country."
Hahahaha ..... after 51 years, do you feel this is fair comment to be raised?
The time has come for Malaysians to realise that there is no superior class and every Malaysian need to be treated fairly and equally.
The time has come for Malaysians to realise that there is no superior class and every Malaysian need to be treated fairly and equally.
This is the full transcript http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...&sec=nation
And this is just some information about the "Social Contract" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract_(Malaysia)
As you can see UMNO has taken the so called definition pf the "Social Contract" further then it was supposed to go. Furthermore seeing what the joint statement from the conference of rulers have said, it seems they themselves don't fully understand the origin of the "Social Contract". What they are saying is in direct contradiction to what is in Wikipedia, which to be honest, in my opinion has been verified by other sources I have read. Even TAR who helped draw up the "Social Contract" stated that it should never last forever and that when non Bumis showed loyalty to Malaysia they should be entitiled to full rights and prevelidges as being a Malaysian.
Choose whichever you want to believe, I'm tired of arguing about this. Its obvious that Malays won't be happy unless they have "special rights" as "guarenteed" under the constitution, and they want to be the decider of what those rights are, without input from any other race. Its also obvious that the Indians and Chinese are not happy about their lot and their anger and frustration is growing. What is clear though is that unless the races come to some sort of compromise, Malaysia will implode from the inside and go down the $hithole. In that evantuality, who is right and who is wrong won't matter a rats arse.
And this is just some information about the "Social Contract" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract_(Malaysia)
As you can see UMNO has taken the so called definition pf the "Social Contract" further then it was supposed to go. Furthermore seeing what the joint statement from the conference of rulers have said, it seems they themselves don't fully understand the origin of the "Social Contract". What they are saying is in direct contradiction to what is in Wikipedia, which to be honest, in my opinion has been verified by other sources I have read. Even TAR who helped draw up the "Social Contract" stated that it should never last forever and that when non Bumis showed loyalty to Malaysia they should be entitiled to full rights and prevelidges as being a Malaysian.
Choose whichever you want to believe, I'm tired of arguing about this. Its obvious that Malays won't be happy unless they have "special rights" as "guarenteed" under the constitution, and they want to be the decider of what those rights are, without input from any other race. Its also obvious that the Indians and Chinese are not happy about their lot and their anger and frustration is growing. What is clear though is that unless the races come to some sort of compromise, Malaysia will implode from the inside and go down the $hithole. In that evantuality, who is right and who is wrong won't matter a rats arse.
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Oct 17 2008, 07:04 AM) [snapback]3970187[/snapback]
This is the full transcript http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=...&sec=nation
And this is just some information about the "Social Contract" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract_(Malaysia)
As you can see UMNO has taken the so called definition pf the "Social Contract" further then it was supposed to go. Furthermore seeing what the joint statement from the conference of rulers have said, it seems they themselves don't fully understand the origin of the "Social Contract". What they are saying is in direct contradiction to what is in Wikipedia, which to be honest, in my opinion has been verified by other sources I have read. Even TAR who helped draw up the "Social Contract" stated that it should never last forever and that when non Bumis showed loyalty to Malaysia they should be entitiled to full rights and prevelidges as being a Malaysian.
Choose whichever you want to believe, I'm tired of arguing about this. Its obvious that Malays won't be happy unless they have "special rights" as "guarenteed" under the constitution, and they want to be the decider of what those rights are, without input from any other race. Its also obvious that the Indians and Chinese are not happy about their lot and their anger and frustration is growing. What is clear though is that unless the races come to some sort of compromise, Malaysia will implode from the inside and go down the $hithole. In that evantuality, who is right and who is wrong won't matter a rats arse.
And this is just some information about the "Social Contract" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract_(Malaysia)
As you can see UMNO has taken the so called definition pf the "Social Contract" further then it was supposed to go. Furthermore seeing what the joint statement from the conference of rulers have said, it seems they themselves don't fully understand the origin of the "Social Contract". What they are saying is in direct contradiction to what is in Wikipedia, which to be honest, in my opinion has been verified by other sources I have read. Even TAR who helped draw up the "Social Contract" stated that it should never last forever and that when non Bumis showed loyalty to Malaysia they should be entitiled to full rights and prevelidges as being a Malaysian.
Choose whichever you want to believe, I'm tired of arguing about this. Its obvious that Malays won't be happy unless they have "special rights" as "guarenteed" under the constitution, and they want to be the decider of what those rights are, without input from any other race. Its also obvious that the Indians and Chinese are not happy about their lot and their anger and frustration is growing. What is clear though is that unless the races come to some sort of compromise, Malaysia will implode from the inside and go down the $hithole. In that evantuality, who is right and who is wrong won't matter a rats arse.
The Indians and the Chinese can go ahead and be unhappy about the Social Contract for the rest of their life or till kingdom comes, but Malays don't really care! I don't really care!
Go ahead and be unhappy all you goddamn life if you want! But the Social Contract is here to stay permanently and forever or until the Malays themselves decide to do away with it. The Sultans and the Yang Di Pertuan Agong (the King of Malaysia) have themselves said that the Social Contract is not up for review, meaning that it is permanent the way it was designed. Rarely would a King of Malaysia and the Kings of the Malay Kingdoms that comprise Malaysia speak out so boldly and publicly about the Social Contract. War-mongering Chinese should take this as a warning from the Paramount Ruler of the Malay Kingdom of Malaysia; Malaysia is a Malay Kingdom, that's why it has a Malay King.
Some Chinese want to seize Malaysia from the Malays so that they replace the Malays as Malaysia's rulers, it has nothing to do with preserving non-Malay rights because the non-Malays already have all those rights that they pretend they don't have. They have their Chinese vernacular schools over which Malays could be arrested under ISA for just questioning the very existence of these schools while they (the Chinese) openly question Islam and Social Contract without having to worry about ISA. Have you ever wondered why no Malays and Bumiputras have ever questioned publicly the existence of Chinese vernacular schools? Because Malaysia's ISA (Internal Security Act) doesn not permit Malaysians to question it. Sabah's Mark Koding was arrested in the 1980s and jailed under ISA merely for suggesting that the government abolish the Chinese vernacular school system. Mark Koding wasn't even a Malay or Muslim. Since then no Malay or Bumiputra ever dare to question Chinese school system in Malaysia. This is just one right the Chinese in Malaysia get when no Chinese elsewhere outside the Chinese world could ever dream of.
And Chinese vernacular school is just one right the Chinese have forced Malaysia's Malays to grant them. Their Chinese language, their Chinese-language media and their Chinese culture are everywhere in Malaysia. The Malaysian TV is full of Chinese-language programs, from Channel 1 to Channel 7. Chinese language news is now aired at prime time (8:00 pm) over two TV Channels (RTM 2 and TV 7)along side with the so-called "national language" which also is given 2 Channels to air news at prime time (RTM 1 and TV 3). The Malay language, though called Bahasa Malaysia, is national only to Malays in every sense of the word. The Chinese are the also the wealthiest in Malaysia, just as they are in other SE Asian countries that they migrate to, always bragging that they are rich because they're more hardworking.
The Chinese of Malaysia have got so much rights that it just whets their appetite even more. They want nothing less until they completely control Malaysia and wrest it from the Malays.
And that's why Chinese like you Mr Swing are always demanding for an end to the Social Contract and for an end to all Malay privileges in Malaysia, these things are hindering your plans to wrest Malaysia from the Malays. And when you control Malaysia, you'll make sure that the Chinese will always be in a "special position" although you will not call it "special rights". The Chinese of Singapore have already ensured that they will always be in a "special position" in Singapore though their Constitution doesn't say it but we can obviously see it. Now some Chinese will want to ask why Malays like me keep harping about Singapore. Don't worry, I'll soon open up a thread on that issue.
Chinese in Gerakan and DAP and other Chinese keep harping a Malaysian Malaysia where all Malaysians are equal regardless of race. But look at their parties! Gerakan and DAP started out as so-called "multiracial" parties, in fact one of the founders of Gerakan was a Malay himself (Syed Hussein Al Attas)! But these parties have degenerated into nothing else but purely Chinese parties due to unbridled Chinese control over them; Malays and Indians shun them. Syed Hussein must be tossing in his grave now. Out of hundreds of candidates standing up for all posts in Gerakan at its convention, there was only 1 Malay and a couple of Indians or so.
Malaysia will turn into a DAP or a Gerakan if Chinese are allowed to have their ways. That's why the King of Malaysia and the Kings of the Malay Kingdoms in Malaysia have spoke out.
No, Malaysia will not go into the $hit hole! Some of these chauvinist Chinese who crap around about Malaysia being a $hithole would simply pack and leave...may be migratre to Australia where they can't insist on a Chinese vernacular school system or things Chinese, they just melt and become Australians. In Malaysia, they refuse to melt, they keep insisting on being Chinese first and Malaysian second, and then pretending that they don't understand why Malays want to be Malays first...and the Social Contract issue is not about UMNO alone, so don't mislead yourself. Malays of PAS and Keadilan too will not give up the Social Contract. Go read all the transcripts by PAS leaders about this. UMNO has gone from bad to worse, and worse to worst, Malays would agree with that. But all Malays will not give up the Social Contract, so get used to this fact and try to live with it.
My suggestion to Chinese of Malaysia: integrate with the Malays! One way you do that is by sending your kids to the national schools at age 7 where they can fully mix with Malay kids at a tender age. Unfortunately, 90% of Malaysian Chinese send their kids to Chinese schools, and by the time they get to secondary schools, they can't mix with Malay kids. I've seen it with my own eyes; Chinese kids sit in one half of the class mumbling in Chinese among themselves, and Malay kids sit in the other half of the class, mumbling in Malay among themselves. .By the time the Chinese kids enter secondary schools, they are like oil and Malay kids are like water, the two don't mix.
And when you have fully integrated and the Malays still discriminate against you, I'll be on your side, if I live long enough to see that!
sori, esfandari but part of ur comment shounded A BIT like the Hitler years " We can only save Germany by removing jews" that is part of the pretext though 
QUOTE(abarai1992 @ Oct 17 2008, 09:21 AM) [snapback]3970299[/snapback]
sori, esfandari but part of ur comment shounded A BIT like the Hitler years " We can only save Germany by removing jews" that is part of the pretext though
That's OK by me abarai! There's diversity of opinions here! You have your opinions, I have mine! Your thumb-down won't change anything...
Yes, you are right, Hitler wanted to remove Jews from Germany and Europe! But did I ask to remove Chinese from Malaysia? Nope, I didn't! I only ask Chinese to integrate with Malays. But many Chinese in Malaysia are behaving like Jews. I am afraid some Malays (not me) would want to reciprocate and behave like Hitler, one of them already did that famous (infamous?) kris-waving act!!
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ Oct 17 2008, 08:30 AM) [snapback]3970244[/snapback]
The Indians and the Chinese can go ahead and be unhappy about the Social Contract for the rest of their life or till kingdom comes, but Malays don't really care! I don't really care!
Go ahead and be unhappy all you goddamn life if you want! But the Social Contract is here to stay permanently and forever or until the Malays themselves decide to do away with it. The Sultans and the Yang Di Pertuan Agong (the King of Malaysia) have themselves said that the Social Contract is not up for review, meaning that it is permanent the way it was designed. Rarely would a King of Malaysia and the Kings of the Malay Kingdoms that comprise Malaysia speak out so boldly and publicly about the Social Contract. War-mongering Chinese should take this as a warning from the Paramount Ruler of the Malay Kingdom of Malaysia; Malaysia is a Malay Kingdom, that's why it has a Malay King.
Some Chinese want to seize Malaysia from the Malays so that they replace the Malays as Malaysia's rulers, it has nothing to do with preserving non-Malay rights because the non-Malays already have all those rights that they pretend they don't have. They have their Chinese vernacular schools over which Malays could be arrested under ISA for just questioning the very existence of these schools while they (the Chinese) openly question Islam and Social Contract without having to worry about ISA. Have you ever wondered why no Malays and Bumiputras have ever questioned publicly the existence of Chinese vernacular schools? Because Malaysia's ISA (Internal Security Act) doesn not permit Malaysians to question it. Sabah's Mark Koding was arrested in the 1980s and jailed under ISA merely for suggesting that the government abolish the Chinese vernacular school system. Mark Koding wasn't even a Malay or Muslim. Since then no Malay or Bumiputra ever dare to question Chinese school system in Malaysia. This is just one right the Chinese in Malaysia get when no Chinese elsewhere outside the Chinese world could ever dream of.
And Chinese vernacular school is just one right the Chinese have forced Malaysia's Malays to grant them. Their Chinese language, their Chinese-language media and their Chinese culture are everywhere in Malaysia. The Malaysian TV is full of Chinese-language programs, from Channel 1 to Channel 7. Chinese language news is now aired at prime time (8:00 pm) over two TV Channels (RTM 2 and TV 7)along side with the so-called "national language" which also is given 2 Channels to air news at prime time (RTM 1 and TV 3). The Malay language, though called Bahasa Malaysia, is national only to Malays in every sense of the word. The Chinese are the also the wealthiest in Malaysia, just as they are in other SE Asian countries that they migrate to, always bragging that they are rich because they're more hardworking.
The Chinese of Malaysia have got so much rights that it just whets their appetite even more. They want nothing less until they completely control Malaysia and wrest it from the Malays.
And that's why Chinese like you Mr Swing are always demanding for an end to the Social Contract and for an end to all Malay privileges in Malaysia, these things are hindering your plans to wrest Malaysia from the Malays. And when you control Malaysia, you'll make sure that the Chinese will always be in a "special position" although you will not call it "special rights". The Chinese of Singapore have already ensured that they will always be in a "special position" in Singapore though their Constitution doesn't say it but we can obviously see it. Now some Chinese will want to ask why Malays like me keep harping about Singapore. Don't worry, I'll soon open up a thread on that issue.
Chinese in Gerakan and DAP and other Chinese keep harping a Malaysian Malaysia where all Malaysians are equal regardless of race. But look at their parties! Gerakan and DAP started out as so-called "multiracial" parties, in fact one of the founders of Gerakan was a Malay himself (Syed Hussein Al Attas)! But these parties have degenerated into nothing else but purely Chinese parties due to unbridled Chinese control over them; Malays and Indians shun them. Syed Hussein must be tossing in his grave now. Out of hundreds of candidates standing up for all posts in Gerakan at its convention, there was only 1 Malay and a couple of Indians or so.
Malaysia will turn into a DAP or a Gerakan if Chinese are allowed to have their ways. That's why the King of Malaysia and the Kings of the Malay Kingdoms in Malaysia have spoke out.
No, Malaysia will not go into the $hit hole! Some of these chauvinist Chinese who crap around about Malaysia being a $hithole would simply pack and leave...may be migratre to Australia where they can't insist on a Chinese vernacular school system or things Chinese, they just melt and become Australians. In Malaysia, they refuse to melt, they keep insisting on being Chinese first and Malaysian second, and then pretending that they don't understand why Malays want to be Malays first...and the Social Contract issue is not about UMNO alone, so don't mislead yourself. Malays of PAS and Keadilan too will not give up the Social Contract. Go read all the transcripts by PAS leaders about this. UMNO has gone from bad to worse, and worse to worst, Malays would agree with that. But all Malays will not give up the Social Contract, so get used to this fact and try to live with it.
My suggestion to Chinese of Malaysia: integrate with the Malays! One way you do that is by sending your kids to the national schools at age 7 where they can fully mix with Malay kids at a tender age. Unfortunately, 90% of Malaysian Chinese send their kids to Chinese schools, and by the time they get to secondary schools, they can't mix with Malay kids. I've seen it with my own eyes; Chinese kids sit in one half of the class mumbling in Chinese among themselves, and Malay kids sit in the other half of the class, mumbling in Malay among themselves. .By the time the Chinese kids enter secondary schools, they are like oil and Malay kids are like water, the two don't mix.
And when you have fully integrated and the Malays still discriminate against you, I'll be on your side, if I live long enough to see that!
Go ahead and be unhappy all you goddamn life if you want! But the Social Contract is here to stay permanently and forever or until the Malays themselves decide to do away with it. The Sultans and the Yang Di Pertuan Agong (the King of Malaysia) have themselves said that the Social Contract is not up for review, meaning that it is permanent the way it was designed. Rarely would a King of Malaysia and the Kings of the Malay Kingdoms that comprise Malaysia speak out so boldly and publicly about the Social Contract. War-mongering Chinese should take this as a warning from the Paramount Ruler of the Malay Kingdom of Malaysia; Malaysia is a Malay Kingdom, that's why it has a Malay King.
Some Chinese want to seize Malaysia from the Malays so that they replace the Malays as Malaysia's rulers, it has nothing to do with preserving non-Malay rights because the non-Malays already have all those rights that they pretend they don't have. They have their Chinese vernacular schools over which Malays could be arrested under ISA for just questioning the very existence of these schools while they (the Chinese) openly question Islam and Social Contract without having to worry about ISA. Have you ever wondered why no Malays and Bumiputras have ever questioned publicly the existence of Chinese vernacular schools? Because Malaysia's ISA (Internal Security Act) doesn not permit Malaysians to question it. Sabah's Mark Koding was arrested in the 1980s and jailed under ISA merely for suggesting that the government abolish the Chinese vernacular school system. Mark Koding wasn't even a Malay or Muslim. Since then no Malay or Bumiputra ever dare to question Chinese school system in Malaysia. This is just one right the Chinese in Malaysia get when no Chinese elsewhere outside the Chinese world could ever dream of.
And Chinese vernacular school is just one right the Chinese have forced Malaysia's Malays to grant them. Their Chinese language, their Chinese-language media and their Chinese culture are everywhere in Malaysia. The Malaysian TV is full of Chinese-language programs, from Channel 1 to Channel 7. Chinese language news is now aired at prime time (8:00 pm) over two TV Channels (RTM 2 and TV 7)along side with the so-called "national language" which also is given 2 Channels to air news at prime time (RTM 1 and TV 3). The Malay language, though called Bahasa Malaysia, is national only to Malays in every sense of the word. The Chinese are the also the wealthiest in Malaysia, just as they are in other SE Asian countries that they migrate to, always bragging that they are rich because they're more hardworking.
The Chinese of Malaysia have got so much rights that it just whets their appetite even more. They want nothing less until they completely control Malaysia and wrest it from the Malays.
And that's why Chinese like you Mr Swing are always demanding for an end to the Social Contract and for an end to all Malay privileges in Malaysia, these things are hindering your plans to wrest Malaysia from the Malays. And when you control Malaysia, you'll make sure that the Chinese will always be in a "special position" although you will not call it "special rights". The Chinese of Singapore have already ensured that they will always be in a "special position" in Singapore though their Constitution doesn't say it but we can obviously see it. Now some Chinese will want to ask why Malays like me keep harping about Singapore. Don't worry, I'll soon open up a thread on that issue.
Chinese in Gerakan and DAP and other Chinese keep harping a Malaysian Malaysia where all Malaysians are equal regardless of race. But look at their parties! Gerakan and DAP started out as so-called "multiracial" parties, in fact one of the founders of Gerakan was a Malay himself (Syed Hussein Al Attas)! But these parties have degenerated into nothing else but purely Chinese parties due to unbridled Chinese control over them; Malays and Indians shun them. Syed Hussein must be tossing in his grave now. Out of hundreds of candidates standing up for all posts in Gerakan at its convention, there was only 1 Malay and a couple of Indians or so.
Malaysia will turn into a DAP or a Gerakan if Chinese are allowed to have their ways. That's why the King of Malaysia and the Kings of the Malay Kingdoms in Malaysia have spoke out.
No, Malaysia will not go into the $hit hole! Some of these chauvinist Chinese who crap around about Malaysia being a $hithole would simply pack and leave...may be migratre to Australia where they can't insist on a Chinese vernacular school system or things Chinese, they just melt and become Australians. In Malaysia, they refuse to melt, they keep insisting on being Chinese first and Malaysian second, and then pretending that they don't understand why Malays want to be Malays first...and the Social Contract issue is not about UMNO alone, so don't mislead yourself. Malays of PAS and Keadilan too will not give up the Social Contract. Go read all the transcripts by PAS leaders about this. UMNO has gone from bad to worse, and worse to worst, Malays would agree with that. But all Malays will not give up the Social Contract, so get used to this fact and try to live with it.
My suggestion to Chinese of Malaysia: integrate with the Malays! One way you do that is by sending your kids to the national schools at age 7 where they can fully mix with Malay kids at a tender age. Unfortunately, 90% of Malaysian Chinese send their kids to Chinese schools, and by the time they get to secondary schools, they can't mix with Malay kids. I've seen it with my own eyes; Chinese kids sit in one half of the class mumbling in Chinese among themselves, and Malay kids sit in the other half of the class, mumbling in Malay among themselves. .By the time the Chinese kids enter secondary schools, they are like oil and Malay kids are like water, the two don't mix.
And when you have fully integrated and the Malays still discriminate against you, I'll be on your side, if I live long enough to see that!
Again you have no idea what you are talking about, did you even read the links I posted, but I guess to you it just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the spirit of the argument was, as long as you get your way isn't it, it doesn't matter what history is, what is good for Malaysia, how the other races are suffering, just as long as Estfandiari gets his way. Just like a spoilt child. Go back and read our previous arguments in the other thread, you know which one, which essentially cover all the points you cover here, your entire post is full of crap.
By the way there is nothing in Australian law that says we cannot have Chinese vernacular schools.
QUOTE(abarai1992 @ Oct 17 2008, 09:21 AM) [snapback]3970299[/snapback]
sori, esfandari but part of ur comment shounded A BIT like the Hitler years " We can only save Germany by removing jews" that is part of the pretext though
So whaaaatttttt.
Dude. Hv you heard of the expression "History is written by winners"? I'm sure you have.
Well, with Germany being a defeated nation in WWII, all history material regarding Europe as written post WWII would be pro-American n anti-German. We won't really know the absolute truth of what really, really happened immediately prior to n during WWII. Cos what we "know" today is based on material prepared by Americans.
Germans as well as Japanese, as defeated nations, are today not YET allowed to give their verion of the true story regarding WWII. It just wouldn't be politically correct, even if what Germans n Japanese say could also be true.
Hitler is of course still the superwicked superdemon in everyone's mind today. Do you think all Germans, all proper, patriotic Germans, would totally n genunely agree with that? Do you think the ENTIRE German nation was completely wrong n evil? Think harder, while also totally divorcing your brain n mind from all that Yankee brainwashing.
Just as Saddam Hussain was MADE OUT n MANUFACTURED into a supermonster in the months leading to the first US-Iraq War in 1991. Funny, but he was still a superhero when he was warring against the Iranian "demon" in 1980 - 1988.
About Germany, Hitler n WWII, maybe we'll know much better in another 100 years. When America is no more the #1 military superpower.
You know, if America, Britain n Russia had lost in WWII, n Germany had won n united Europe under Germany, Adolf would today hv been a European superhero in your history books. While Eisenhower n Churchill n would be the evil villains.
That's "history" for ya.
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Oct 18 2008, 03:25 PM) [snapback]3971476[/snapback]
Again you have no idea what you are talking about, did you even read the links I posted, but I guess to you it just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the spirit of the argument was, as long as you get your way isn't it, it doesn't matter what history is, what is good for Malaysia, how the other races are suffering, just as long as Estfandiari gets his way. Just like a spoilt child. Go back and read our previous arguments in the other thread, you know which one, which essentially cover all the points you cover here, your entire post is full of crap.
By the way there is nothing in Australian law that says we cannot have Chinese vernacular schools.
By the way there is nothing in Australian law that says we cannot have Chinese vernacular schools.
I would like to counter-question,sir.
Who is suffering ?Is 'The Richest Man' In malaysia suffered?Is the owner Of Genting Highlands suffered?
It is not getting the way of Esfan or what,but u have agreed to it long ago.Or u can ask why Tan Cheng Lock agreed to become a part of this agreement previously.Because he understand why the agreement should be done.He recognized the need to compromise.I quoted these two figures' statements when they are trying to DEFEND MALAY PRIVILeGES.
They,the non-bumis,defend the malay privileges.
• Tun Tan siew sin - I have no doubt in y mind That when the time comes,malays themselves will ask for the abolition.but this is a matter that we must obviously leave them to decide.
• Tun Sambanthan – We hear it spoken,1st and 2nd class citizenship.an unbalance existed for some reasons.It maybe that colonial rule with all its defects,its sin of omissions, has rendered these things so.
Dear my malaysian friend,It is important for all us to recognize the difficult balancing act made by the government.
Also,u can hold the words of Tunku - "...when we (the Malays) fought against the Malayan Union (which upset the position of the Malays' rights) the others took no part in it because they said this is purely a Malay concern, and not theirs. They also indicate that they owe their loyalty to their countries of origin, and for that reason they oppose the Barnes Report to make Malay the national language. If we were to hand over the Malays to these so-called Malayans when their nationality has not been defined there will be a lot of problems ahead of us.However,For those who love and feel they owe undivided loyalty to this country, we will welcome them as Malayans. They must truly be Malayans, and they will have the same rights and privileges as the Malays." [5]
It will happen one day-that there is no longer Privileges.But tell me,in this recent situation,the abolition of privileges is relevant.When malays are still the less competitive one.When Nep was not a total success due to cronyism and corruption.When the purpose of the privileges-to improve the competitiveness of malays had still far away to be achieved.Tell me it is relevant to do that!
i will not defend the culprits in malay community who intentionally misuse the privileges.I wont.Becoz it is useless.
We had to get rid of them first.That is why i was not totally against DaP or Anwar or Hindraf.Because i believes they will be the wake up call for those culprits.Stop betraying your own people,folks.
the one who defend privileges,like esfan is minority.we had so many to against the system,even our very own Malays!
So,dont worry.u are majority.keep arguing.
QUOTE(dreamhunter @ Oct 18 2008, 05:10 AM) [snapback]3971610[/snapback]
So whaaaatttttt.
Dude. Hv you heard of the expression "History is written by winners"? I'm sure you have.
Well, with Germany being a defeated nation in WWII, all history material regarding Europe as written post WWII would be pro-American n anti-German. We won't really know the absolute truth of what really, really happened immediately prior to n during WWII. Cos what we "know" today is based on material prepared by Americans.
Germans as well as Japanese, as defeated nations, are today not YET allowed to give their verion of the true story regarding WWII. It just wouldn't be politically correct, even if what Germans n Japanese say could also be true.
Hitler is of course still the superwicked superdemon in everyone's mind today. Do you think all Germans, all proper, patriotic Germans, would totally n genunely agree with that? Do you think the ENTIRE German nation was completely wrong n evil? Think harder, while also totally divorcing your brain n mind from all that Yankee brainwashing.
Just as Saddam Hussain was MADE OUT n MANUFACTURED into a supermonster in the months leading to the first US-Iraq War in 1991. Funny, but he was still a superhero when he was warring against the Iranian "demon" in 1980 - 1988.
About Germany, Hitler n WWII, maybe we'll know much better in another 100 years. When America is no more the #1 military superpower.
You know, if America, Britain n Russia had lost in WWII, n Germany had won n united Europe under Germany, Adolf would today hv been a European superhero in your history books. While Eisenhower n Churchill n would be the evil villains.
That's "history" for ya.
Dude. Hv you heard of the expression "History is written by winners"? I'm sure you have.
Well, with Germany being a defeated nation in WWII, all history material regarding Europe as written post WWII would be pro-American n anti-German. We won't really know the absolute truth of what really, really happened immediately prior to n during WWII. Cos what we "know" today is based on material prepared by Americans.
Germans as well as Japanese, as defeated nations, are today not YET allowed to give their verion of the true story regarding WWII. It just wouldn't be politically correct, even if what Germans n Japanese say could also be true.
Hitler is of course still the superwicked superdemon in everyone's mind today. Do you think all Germans, all proper, patriotic Germans, would totally n genunely agree with that? Do you think the ENTIRE German nation was completely wrong n evil? Think harder, while also totally divorcing your brain n mind from all that Yankee brainwashing.
Just as Saddam Hussain was MADE OUT n MANUFACTURED into a supermonster in the months leading to the first US-Iraq War in 1991. Funny, but he was still a superhero when he was warring against the Iranian "demon" in 1980 - 1988.
About Germany, Hitler n WWII, maybe we'll know much better in another 100 years. When America is no more the #1 military superpower.
You know, if America, Britain n Russia had lost in WWII, n Germany had won n united Europe under Germany, Adolf would today hv been a European superhero in your history books. While Eisenhower n Churchill n would be the evil villains.
That's "history" for ya.
Ok, lets assume that Hitler and Saddam did win their respective wars, so how would you portray them? Remember, if it wasn't for the Americans(and the British), you would in all likleyhood be speaking Japanese.
I'm still quite surprised that the Malay Royal Council has now spoken up regarding the issues.
The always neutral & apolitical Chief of Armed Forces had touched on the issue too, a few weeks ago.
Now atleast two apolitical but important MY highest institution & public organisation have voiced up their worries over current political & possible racial turmoil.
Malay Royal Council & Malaysian Armed Forces have now give us the hint, stop & desists anything to encourage anti KEDAULATAN MELAYU.
If not, we'll pay a heavy price ..... we cannot afford another 13th May 1969 (Malays vs Chinese), Memali Incident (Malays vs extremist Malays) & Kg. Medan Incident (Malays vs. Indians).
The always neutral & apolitical Chief of Armed Forces had touched on the issue too, a few weeks ago.
Now atleast two apolitical but important MY highest institution & public organisation have voiced up their worries over current political & possible racial turmoil.
Malay Royal Council & Malaysian Armed Forces have now give us the hint, stop & desists anything to encourage anti KEDAULATAN MELAYU.
If not, we'll pay a heavy price ..... we cannot afford another 13th May 1969 (Malays vs Chinese), Memali Incident (Malays vs extremist Malays) & Kg. Medan Incident (Malays vs. Indians).
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Oct 19 2008, 09:25 PM) [snapback]3973850[/snapback]
I'm still quite surprised that the Malay Royal Council has now spoken up regarding the issues.
The always neutral & apolitical Chief of Armed Forces had touched on the issue too, a few weeks ago.
Now atleast two apolitical but important MY highest institution & public organisation have voiced up their worries over current political & possible racial turmoil.
Malay Royal Council & Malaysian Armed Forces have now give us the hint, stop & desists anything to encourage anti KEDAULATAN MELAYU.
If not, we'll pay a heavy price ..... we cannot afford another 13th May 1969 (Malays vs Chinese), Memali Incident (Malays vs extremist Malays) & Kg. Medan Incident (Malays vs. Indians).
The always neutral & apolitical Chief of Armed Forces had touched on the issue too, a few weeks ago.
Now atleast two apolitical but important MY highest institution & public organisation have voiced up their worries over current political & possible racial turmoil.
Malay Royal Council & Malaysian Armed Forces have now give us the hint, stop & desists anything to encourage anti KEDAULATAN MELAYU.
If not, we'll pay a heavy price ..... we cannot afford another 13th May 1969 (Malays vs Chinese), Memali Incident (Malays vs extremist Malays) & Kg. Medan Incident (Malays vs. Indians).
Good and timely advice protoculture!
In fact, I put up this warning earlier in one of my posts: that the Armed Forces Chief of Malaysia (Panglima Angkatan Tentera Malaysia) has joined in the fray to warn Malaysians not to escalate racial tensions which is not a very normal thing for a Panglima to do, it's about time that overexcited non-Malays to de-escalate and not push the line drawn in the sand. I was accused of being a racist by non-Malay forummers for giving them this advice...
And now we see the Majlis Raja-Raja Melayu (Council of Malay Rulers) issuing similar warning which is also not a very normal thing for the Majlis to do. The Malay Rulers go further to spelll out in name the concepts and things that MUST BE DEFENDED WITHOUT QUESTION: the "Social Contract", the "Malay privileges", "Islam", "Bahasa Melayu" and the "genuine rights of non-Malays"...
Yes, their Royal Highnesses did mention the "GENUINE rights of the non-Malays" as one of the things that must also be defended. But notice that their Royal Highnesses inserted the word "GENUINE" when they mention rights of the non-Malays of Malaysia! The King of Malaysia and the Kings of the Malay Kingdoms of Malaysia are subtly warning that the so-called "rights" that non-Malays are pushing for today are NOT GENUINE and have gone beyond what have been agreed upon during the formulation of the Social Contract prior and at time of independence and that the Social Contract itself is PERMANENT and not up for reviews...
Are the King and Sultans Malay Supremacists or simply Preservers of the Malay Privileges?
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Oct 18 2008, 02:25 AM) [snapback]3971476[/snapback]
Again you have no idea what you are talking about, did you even read the links I posted, but I guess to you it just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what the spirit of the argument was, as long as you get your way isn't it, it doesn't matter what history is, what is good for Malaysia, how the other races are suffering, just as long as Estfandiari gets his way. Just like a spoilt child. Go back and read our previous arguments in the other thread, you know which one, which essentially cover all the points you cover here, your entire post is full of crap.
By the way there is nothing in Australian law that says we cannot have Chinese vernacular schools.
By the way there is nothing in Australian law that says we cannot have Chinese vernacular schools.
Me having no idea of what I'm talking about? As usual, you're arsing through your craps again! Oops, sorry...as usual you're definitely crapping through your arse again, and you're branding these craps as facts!
This isn't about what Esfandiari gets or doesn't get. I'm here to tell stubborn chauvinists like you that Malays, including the King and Sultans of Malaysia, will forever and ever defend all that have been accorded to them under the Social Contract; we're not asking for extra rights but are defending existing rights guaranteed under the Social Contract.
But Chinese extremists like you keep arsing and farting around that the Social Contract is temporary and must be dismantled. You want to completely destroy, dismantle and do away with the Social Contract, and in the process doing away with all constitutionally guarnteed Malay rights, knowing fully well that if you achieve this, Malays would completely be disfranchised of all their rights, and you the Chinese extremists will be the new rulers of Malaysia, still keeping your rights constitutionally guaranteed! And now you're conveniently riding on the coattails of the Orang Asli, the liberal secular Malays and the misguided Pakatan Malays to achieve your goal of destroying the Social Contract and disfranchising Malays..
Other races are suffering? Suffering for what? For being the wealthiest people in Malaysia as the Chinese are and controlling its economy and having the power to manipulate prices and make every Malaysian suffer? For having been given the power to invoke the ISA (Internal Security Act) against any Malaysian who dares question the existence of Chinese vernacular school system? For having been CONSTITUTIONALLY guaranteed a Chinese vernacular school system that even Australian Chinese can't dream off? For having been guaranteed the political representation in Malaysia like no other overseas Chinese anywhere on planet Earth could ever dream off? For having been allowed to be politicaly vocal that even Singaporean Malays can't dream off? Should I continue?
If all these you call "suffering", then other foreigners are more than willing to come to Malaysia just to "suffer", they even risk their lives on rickety overcrowded boats to come to Malaysia, they risked being jailed, etc, didn't they? Ask the Indonesian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Burmese, Nigerian, Cameroonians, Vietnamese, and Filipino legal and illegal migrants who come here! It's no sweat for these foreigners to come to Malaysia to "suffer". It's Malaysian Chinese ingrates like you who can't see the light!! (Or, should I say 'ex-Malaysian'??)
Yes, there is no law in Australia that says Chinese can't have vernacular schools in Australia. But here in Malaysia, we also don't stop people from opening schools that teach Temuan, Tetum, Hiligaynon, Tongan, Mendriq, Kartvelian, Khmer, Indonesian, French, Tulu, Chamorro, etc so long as these language proponents do not force us to constitutionally guarantee the teaching of their language in our country.
Sure, you can open up a Chinese-language school in Australia but you can't force the Australian government to CONSTITUTIONALLY guarantee your Chinese language, your Chinese culture, your Chinese political representation, etc into the Constitution of Australia, all in the name of Chineseness. But here in Malaysia, the Chinese and Chineseness have successfully forced the Malays, practically at gunpoint, to constitutionally guarantee them so many Chinese things that it will be a war if Malays try to rescind all these constitutional rights guaranteed to them..
Why don't you go try to force the Australian government to amend the Australian Constituion and give special rights to the Chinese?
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ Oct 20 2008, 08:57 AM) [snapback]3974556[/snapback]
Me having no idea of what I'm talking about? As usual, you're arsing through your craps again! Oops, sorry...as usual you're definitely crapping through your arse again, and you're branding these craps as facts!
If what I'm saying is crap, then tell me which part of what I posted is wrong.
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ Oct 20 2008, 08:57 AM) [snapback]3974556[/snapback]
This isn't about what Esfandiari gets or doesn't get. I'm here to tell stubborn chauvinists like you that Malays, including the King and Sultans of Malaysia, will forever and ever defend all that have been accorded to them under the Social Contract; we're not asking for extra rights but are defending existing rights guaranteed under the Social Contract.
But Chinese extremists like you keep arsing and farting around that the Social Contract is temporary and must be dismantled. You want to completely destroy, dismantle and do away with the Social Contract, and in the process doing away with all constitutionally guarnteed Malay rights, knowing fully well that if you achieve this, Malays would completely be disfranchised of all their rights, and you the Chinese extremists will be the new rulers of Malaysia, still keeping your rights constitutionally guaranteed! And now you're conveniently riding on the coattails of the Orang Asli, the liberal secular Malays and the misguided Pakatan Malays to achieve your goal of destroying the Social Contract and disfranchising Malays..
Other races are suffering? Suffering for what? For being the wealthiest people in Malaysia as the Chinese are and controlling its economy and having the power to manipulate prices and make every Malaysian suffer? For having been given the power to invoke the ISA (Internal Security Act) against any Malaysian who dares question the existence of Chinese vernacular school system? For having been CONSTITUTIONALLY guaranteed a Chinese vernacular school system that even Australian Chinese can't dream off? For having been guaranteed the political representation in Malaysia like no other overseas Chinese anywhere on planet Earth could ever dream off? For having been allowed to be politicaly vocal that even Singaporean Malays can't dream off? Should I continue?
If all these you call "suffering", then other foreigners are more than willing to come to Malaysia just to "suffer", they even risk their lives on rickety overcrowded boats to come to Malaysia, they risked being jailed, etc, didn't they? Ask the Indonesian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Burmese, Nigerian, Cameroonians, Vietnamese, and Filipino legal and illegal migrants who come here! It's no sweat for these foreigners to come to Malaysia to "suffer". It's Malaysian Chinese ingrates like you who can't see the light!! (Or, should I say 'ex-Malaysian'??)
Yes, there is no law in Australia that says Chinese can't have vernacular schools in Australia. But here in Malaysia, we also don't stop people from opening schools that teach Temuan, Tetum, Hiligaynon, Tongan, Mendriq, Kartvelian, Khmer, Indonesian, French, Tulu, Chamorro, etc so long as these language proponents do not force us to constitutionally guarantee the teaching of their language in our country.
Sure, you can open up a Chinese-language school in Australia but you can't force the Australian government to CONSTITUTIONALLY guarantee your Chinese language, your Chinese culture, your Chinese political representation, etc into the Constitution of Australia, all in the name of Chineseness. But here in Malaysia, the Chinese and Chineseness have successfully forced the Malays, practically at gunpoint, to constitutionally guarantee them so many Chinese things that it will be a war if Malays try to rescind all these constitutional rights guaranteed to them..
Why don't you go try to force the Australian government to amend the Australian Constituion and give special rights to the Chinese?
But Chinese extremists like you keep arsing and farting around that the Social Contract is temporary and must be dismantled. You want to completely destroy, dismantle and do away with the Social Contract, and in the process doing away with all constitutionally guarnteed Malay rights, knowing fully well that if you achieve this, Malays would completely be disfranchised of all their rights, and you the Chinese extremists will be the new rulers of Malaysia, still keeping your rights constitutionally guaranteed! And now you're conveniently riding on the coattails of the Orang Asli, the liberal secular Malays and the misguided Pakatan Malays to achieve your goal of destroying the Social Contract and disfranchising Malays..
Other races are suffering? Suffering for what? For being the wealthiest people in Malaysia as the Chinese are and controlling its economy and having the power to manipulate prices and make every Malaysian suffer? For having been given the power to invoke the ISA (Internal Security Act) against any Malaysian who dares question the existence of Chinese vernacular school system? For having been CONSTITUTIONALLY guaranteed a Chinese vernacular school system that even Australian Chinese can't dream off? For having been guaranteed the political representation in Malaysia like no other overseas Chinese anywhere on planet Earth could ever dream off? For having been allowed to be politicaly vocal that even Singaporean Malays can't dream off? Should I continue?
If all these you call "suffering", then other foreigners are more than willing to come to Malaysia just to "suffer", they even risk their lives on rickety overcrowded boats to come to Malaysia, they risked being jailed, etc, didn't they? Ask the Indonesian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Burmese, Nigerian, Cameroonians, Vietnamese, and Filipino legal and illegal migrants who come here! It's no sweat for these foreigners to come to Malaysia to "suffer". It's Malaysian Chinese ingrates like you who can't see the light!! (Or, should I say 'ex-Malaysian'??)
Yes, there is no law in Australia that says Chinese can't have vernacular schools in Australia. But here in Malaysia, we also don't stop people from opening schools that teach Temuan, Tetum, Hiligaynon, Tongan, Mendriq, Kartvelian, Khmer, Indonesian, French, Tulu, Chamorro, etc so long as these language proponents do not force us to constitutionally guarantee the teaching of their language in our country.
Sure, you can open up a Chinese-language school in Australia but you can't force the Australian government to CONSTITUTIONALLY guarantee your Chinese language, your Chinese culture, your Chinese political representation, etc into the Constitution of Australia, all in the name of Chineseness. But here in Malaysia, the Chinese and Chineseness have successfully forced the Malays, practically at gunpoint, to constitutionally guarantee them so many Chinese things that it will be a war if Malays try to rescind all these constitutional rights guaranteed to them..
Why don't you go try to force the Australian government to amend the Australian Constituion and give special rights to the Chinese?
Everything that you claim is "Constitutionally Guarenteed" in Malaysia, Chinese can do in Australia. The Chinese and every other race, can practice their culture, language and religion without fear of persecution. They can also open up their own schools in whatever language they want as long as they meet certain basic requirements that all all schools in Australia meet. There are many Jewish schools and some Islamic schools, if the Chinese or any other race wants to set up these schools, they are welcome to do so. Infact even if you are a private school you also get public funding, something that is not available as I understand to vernacular schools in Malaysia. So the question that needs to be asked is, why is there a need to "constitutinally Guarentee" basic rights in Malaysia when most other countries do it without any constitutional guarentees. In fact even without the "Constitutional Guarentee", Chinese and Indians are still treated better in Australia then they are in Malaysia.
I've said this to you before non Malay does not equal Chinese so when you make comments about non Malays you need to include other races as well. I've also said help where help is due, rich people of any race don't need help, but why help rich Malays get richer, when you don't help the poor non Malays? Can you state categorically, yes or no weather you believe that it is right to help rich Malays get richer when poor non Malays don't recieve any help. It is also bull$hit to say that any one race has the power to manipulate prices and make evey other Malaysian suffer. Can you give me one example of this. Otherwise stop making such ludicrous comments like Dreamhunter.
About the Social Contract, the first question I would ask is where does it say that Malays are guarenteed the Social Contract. I ask you this because I'm interested in the reasoning you have used to come to the conclusions that you have come to.
Achhhh, the 'perfect, rosy' Oz.
Ain't that perfect, it seems. Some White Ozzies still resents Asians for taking away their jobs & educations.
Swing, just because Oz has insignificant, privately funded Chinese schools (too few anyway), most Ozzie Chinese kids most often opted for Oz national schools.
Overseas Chinese minorities in Western world have to assimilate into Western culture, becoming Westernised in all their outlooks except their Chinese surname & their Chinese faces.
In Singapore, they have a quote for those Overseas Westernised Chinese, which aptly described that species. They called 'em BANANA, "Yellow on the outside, White on the inside". In short, Anglo-wannabees. Of course, that gotta be, Anglo-Asians.
Ain't that perfect, it seems. Some White Ozzies still resents Asians for taking away their jobs & educations.
Swing, just because Oz has insignificant, privately funded Chinese schools (too few anyway), most Ozzie Chinese kids most often opted for Oz national schools.
Overseas Chinese minorities in Western world have to assimilate into Western culture, becoming Westernised in all their outlooks except their Chinese surname & their Chinese faces.
In Singapore, they have a quote for those Overseas Westernised Chinese, which aptly described that species. They called 'em BANANA, "Yellow on the outside, White on the inside". In short, Anglo-wannabees. Of course, that gotta be, Anglo-Asians.
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Oct 20 2008, 11:11 PM) [snapback]3975720[/snapback]
Achhhh, the 'perfect, rosy' Oz.
Ain't that perfect, it seems. Some White Ozzies still resents Asians for taking away their jobs & educations.
Swing, just because Oz has insignificant, privately funded Chinese schools (too few anyway), most Ozzie Chinese kids most often opted for Oz national schools.
Overseas Chinese minorities in Western world have to assimilate into Western culture, becoming Westernised in all their outlooks except their Chinese surname & their Chinese faces.
In Singapore, they have a quote for those Overseas Westernised Chinese, which aptly described that species. They called 'em BANANA, "Yellow on the outside, White on the inside". In short, Anglo-wannabees. Of course, that gotta be, Anglo-Asians.
Ain't that perfect, it seems. Some White Ozzies still resents Asians for taking away their jobs & educations.
Swing, just because Oz has insignificant, privately funded Chinese schools (too few anyway), most Ozzie Chinese kids most often opted for Oz national schools.
Overseas Chinese minorities in Western world have to assimilate into Western culture, becoming Westernised in all their outlooks except their Chinese surname & their Chinese faces.
In Singapore, they have a quote for those Overseas Westernised Chinese, which aptly described that species. They called 'em BANANA, "Yellow on the outside, White on the inside". In short, Anglo-wannabees. Of course, that gotta be, Anglo-Asians.
I never said Australia was perfect. Why, do you think Australia is perfect? Other wise why make such a claim.
Show me an example of "white Ozzies still resents Asians for taking away their jobs and education". I'll show you an example of non Malays being discriminated against in Malaysia every day if you like.
Yes, the majority of Chinese in Australia choose to send their kids to "local" schools, thats because the best local schools are available to Chinese as they are to everybody else. Tell me are the best publically funded schools in Malaysia freely open to Chinese or any other minority groups? The percentage of non Malay children in "Sekolah Kebangsaan" is reducing each year, have you consided why.
Yes, most Chinese children as well as other children assimilate to "Western" Culture, as "Western" Culture in Australia also assimilated with Chinese and other cultures. Tell me are Malays willing to assimilate with Chinese culture, if you are not, then you cannot expect other cultures to assimilate with you. The laws in Malaysia are prohibitive to the races assimilating. To assimilate, Chinese and other minority groups are expected to give up their identity, nobody wants to do that. My "white" brother in law, eats Malaysian food, even enjoys sambal kangkong, he celebrates Chinese New Year with us. If my sister were to marry a Malay, could she or her children celebrate CNY or Christmas. Could she or her children eat pork. Can she even choose the religion of her children. Why do you think the races in Singapore have assimilated better then in Malaysia? Why do you think there is less racial tension in Singapore. Do you think Malaysia is an example of races assimilating, that the rest of the world should use as a gold standard.
None of the Chinese in Australia I know are Western wanna be's, we're not that jakun. Yes, I have seen Chinese in Singapore who are Western wannabe's as you call them, as I have seen Malays in Malaysia do the same. In this forum I have also seen a Malay man brag about having had a "white" girlfriend, as though that somehow makes him a "better" man. Most of the Westen wanna bes and white worshippers live in Asian countries and have never been to Western countries. Personally I am proud that in Australia, we are all assimilating, and I don't give a rats arse what other people call us. I wouldn't want to come to this country where people choose to live seperate lives, we came to this country prepare to assimilate and not with an attitude that we weren't, as when the people here who accepted us into "their" country, they also were prepared to assimilate themselves with us. Assimilation works both ways and both groups were prepared to assimilate. We have not given up our identity but we have been changed by the people around us as we have changed the people around us as well. Malays here have also assimilated but you probably refer to them as COCONUTs ya, and probably also mean it in a degratory term. One thing is for sure though, we have differing opinions on what is important in life.
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Oct 21 2008, 07:05 AM) [snapback]3976219[/snapback]
I never said Australia was perfect. Why, do you think Australia is perfect? Other wise why make such a claim.
Show me an example of "white Ozzies still resents Asians for taking away their jobs and education". I'll show you an example of non Malays being discriminated against in Malaysia every day if you like.
Yes, the majority of Chinese in Australia choose to send their kids to "local" schools, thats because the best local schools are available to Chinese as they are to everybody else. Tell me are the best publically funded schools in Malaysia freely open to Chinese or any other minority groups? The percentage of non Malay children in "Sekolah Kebangsaan" is reducing each year, have you consided why.
Yes, most Chinese children as well as other children assimilate to "Western" Culture, as "Western" Culture in Australia also assimilated with Chinese and other cultures. Tell me are Malays willing to assimilate with Chinese culture, if you are not, then you cannot expect other cultures to assimilate with you. The laws in Malaysia are prohibitive to the races assimilating. To assimilate, Chinese and other minority groups are expected to give up their identity, nobody wants to do that. My "white" brother in law, eats Malaysian food, even enjoys sambal kangkong, he celebrates Chinese New Year with us. If my sister were to marry a Malay, could she or her children celebrate CNY or Christmas. Could she or her children eat pork. Can she even choose the religion of her children. Why do you think the races in Singapore have assimilated better then in Malaysia? Why do you think there is less racial tension in Singapore. Do you think Malaysia is an example of races assimilating, that the rest of the world should use as a gold standard.
None of the Chinese in Australia I know are Western wanna be's, we're not that jakun. Yes, I have seen Chinese in Singapore who are Western wannabe's as you call them, as I have seen Malays in Malaysia do the same. In this forum I have also seen a Malay man brag about having had a "white" girlfriend, as though that somehow makes him a "better" man. Most of the Westen wanna bes and white worshippers live in Asian countries and have never been to Western countries. Personally I am proud that in Australia, we are all assimilating, and I don't give a rats arse what other people call us. I wouldn't want to come to this country where people choose to live seperate lives, we came to this country prepare to assimilate and not with an attitude that we weren't, as when the people here who accepted us into "their" country, they also were prepared to assimilate themselves with us. Assimilation works both ways and both groups were prepared to assimilate. We have not given up our identity but we have been changed by the people around us as we have changed the people around us as well. Malays here have also assimilated but you probably refer to them as COCONUTs ya, and probably also mean it in a degratory term. One thing is for sure though, we have differing opinions on what is important in life.
Show me an example of "white Ozzies still resents Asians for taking away their jobs and education". I'll show you an example of non Malays being discriminated against in Malaysia every day if you like.
Yes, the majority of Chinese in Australia choose to send their kids to "local" schools, thats because the best local schools are available to Chinese as they are to everybody else. Tell me are the best publically funded schools in Malaysia freely open to Chinese or any other minority groups? The percentage of non Malay children in "Sekolah Kebangsaan" is reducing each year, have you consided why.
Yes, most Chinese children as well as other children assimilate to "Western" Culture, as "Western" Culture in Australia also assimilated with Chinese and other cultures. Tell me are Malays willing to assimilate with Chinese culture, if you are not, then you cannot expect other cultures to assimilate with you. The laws in Malaysia are prohibitive to the races assimilating. To assimilate, Chinese and other minority groups are expected to give up their identity, nobody wants to do that. My "white" brother in law, eats Malaysian food, even enjoys sambal kangkong, he celebrates Chinese New Year with us. If my sister were to marry a Malay, could she or her children celebrate CNY or Christmas. Could she or her children eat pork. Can she even choose the religion of her children. Why do you think the races in Singapore have assimilated better then in Malaysia? Why do you think there is less racial tension in Singapore. Do you think Malaysia is an example of races assimilating, that the rest of the world should use as a gold standard.
None of the Chinese in Australia I know are Western wanna be's, we're not that jakun. Yes, I have seen Chinese in Singapore who are Western wannabe's as you call them, as I have seen Malays in Malaysia do the same. In this forum I have also seen a Malay man brag about having had a "white" girlfriend, as though that somehow makes him a "better" man. Most of the Westen wanna bes and white worshippers live in Asian countries and have never been to Western countries. Personally I am proud that in Australia, we are all assimilating, and I don't give a rats arse what other people call us. I wouldn't want to come to this country where people choose to live seperate lives, we came to this country prepare to assimilate and not with an attitude that we weren't, as when the people here who accepted us into "their" country, they also were prepared to assimilate themselves with us. Assimilation works both ways and both groups were prepared to assimilate. We have not given up our identity but we have been changed by the people around us as we have changed the people around us as well. Malays here have also assimilated but you probably refer to them as COCONUTs ya, and probably also mean it in a degratory term. One thing is for sure though, we have differing opinions on what is important in life.
Wow! What a great idea about "national integration" coming from your arse again!
Now, Malays must integrate into Chinese culture although Malays are natives while Chinese are immigrant descendants who come to live in the midst of Malays! I come to your house, you are the host, I am the guest, but you the host must integrate into my ways of the guest.
And now you want people married to Malay Muslims to be allowed to eat pork too for national integration! Despite having lived in Malaysia for years before migrating to Australia, you still can't figure out that pork is haram to Muslims, including to the spouse who converted to Islam to marry the Muslim. You still insist on Muslims and their children eating pork!
In Malaysia, no non-Muslim has ever been forced to marrry a Muslim. And the non-Muslim damn well knows that if he/she wants to marry a Muslim, he/she has to convert to Islam, otherwise he/she is free not to enter into the marriage. And if the marriage takes place, pork is definitely forbidden as it is haram in Islam.
But all Chinese, Indian, Western, Iban, Kadazan or Dayak cuisines are halal and allowed for consumption by Muslims as long as these cuisines are halal and do not contain pork or any "unhalal" product. Malays themselves these days enjoy eating Chinese foods like yong tau foo, char kue tiaw, Hainan chicken rice, etc. Why, Malays even serve and sell these food themselves! All as long as these fods are halal.
We Muslims eat all foods that originate from non-Muslims...hamburgers, hotdogs, pizza, yong tau foo, char kue tiaw, putu mayam, masalode, etc for as long as they are halal.
But extremists like swingdoctor wants Malays to eat pork in order to achieve national integration without even caring for the sensitivities of the Muslims. That's why I call you an extremist and a chauvinist.
And no, we Malays are not asking Chinese to give up their Chinese identity in order to assimilate: we expect them to integrate in Malaysia just the way they integrate in Australia. Do they have to give up their Chinese identity in Australia? We expect them to keep their Chinese names, we expect them to keep their Buddhist or whatever religions they have (except if they want to voluntarily marry Muslims), we expect them to keep celebrating Chinese New Year and Chap Go Meh, we expect them to continue eating using chopsticks if they like it, we expect them to continue eating pork, etc, etc. All we ask is that they integrate. Sending their kids to national schools to mingle with Malay kids is one good way to integrate.
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ Oct 22 2008, 12:29 AM) [snapback]3976409[/snapback]
In Malaysia, no non-Muslim has ever been forced to marrry a Muslim. And the non-Muslim damn well knows that if he/she wants to marry a Muslim, he/she has to convert to Islam, otherwise he/she is free not to enter into the marriage.
think i read somewhere in forum few mths back that this rule only applied in malaysia. there is never such a rule in muslim right? correct me if i am wrong.
let me ask you again, why this rule there in the first place? feeling so insecure abt yourself? why force another party to commit to islam when he already have their own religion? y other religion never have such a rule?
QUOTE
think i read somewhere in forum few mths back that this rule only applied in malaysia. there is never such a rule in muslim right? correct me if i am wrong.
let me ask you again, why this rule there in the first place? feeling so insecure abt yourself? why force another party to commit to islam when he already have their own religion? y other religion never have such a rule?
let me ask you again, why this rule there in the first place? feeling so insecure abt yourself? why force another party to commit to islam when he already have their own religion? y other religion never have such a rule?
Its important for such rulings, to keep the preservation of Islam. The non-Muslims need to convert to Islam before marrying their Muslim partners, & thereby keeping Islamic status quo within the Islamic communities. By becoming Muslims, they're accorded rights which applicable to Muslims only in cases of inheritance amongst other things. Their children with their Muslims spouses are indeed Muslims too.
However, interpretations of that ruling may vary from one Islamic nation with the other, because of the different Sunni sects (Hanafi, Shafie, Hanbali, Maliki). MY is quite strict as we're practising the most conservative Sunni sect, the Shafie madhab (try equate that to conservative Catholics).
In other Arab nations though, some justify that Muslim males may marry Christian / Jewish women (categorised as People of the Book) who do not need to convert to Islam, but the kids from that mixed marriages MUST BE MUSLIMS. However, given current political climate, the Arab countries begin to adopt the strict ruling of Muslim weeding union only (just like MY).
QUOTE(Esfandiari @ Oct 21 2008, 11:29 AM) [snapback]3976409[/snapback]
Wow! What a great idea about "national integration" coming from your arse again!
Now, Malays must integrate into Chinese culture although Malays are natives while Chinese are immigrant descendants who come to live in the midst of Malays! I come to your house, you are the host, I am the guest, but you the host must integrate into my ways of the guest.
And now you want people married to Malay Muslims to be allowed to eat pork too for national integration! Despite having lived in Malaysia for years before migrating to Australia, you still can't figure out that pork is haram to Muslims, including to the spouse who converted to Islam to marry the Muslim. You still insist on Muslims and their children eating pork!
In Malaysia, no non-Muslim has ever been forced to marrry a Muslim. And the non-Muslim damn well knows that if he/she wants to marry a Muslim, he/she has to convert to Islam, otherwise he/she is free not to enter into the marriage. And if the marriage takes place, pork is definitely forbidden as it is haram in Islam.
But all Chinese, Indian, Western, Iban, Kadazan or Dayak cuisines are halal and allowed for consumption by Muslims as long as these cuisines are halal and do not contain pork or any "unhalal" product. Malays themselves these days enjoy eating Chinese foods like yong tau foo, char kue tiaw, Hainan chicken rice, etc. Why, Malays even serve and sell these food themselves! All as long as these fods are halal.
We Muslims eat all foods that originate from non-Muslims...hamburgers, hotdogs, pizza, yong tau foo, char kue tiaw, putu mayam, masalode, etc for as long as they are halal.
But extremists like swingdoctor wants Malays to eat pork in order to achieve national integration without even caring for the sensitivities of the Muslims. That's why I call you an extremist and a chauvinist.
And no, we Malays are not asking Chinese to give up their Chinese identity in order to assimilate: we expect them to integrate in Malaysia just the way they integrate in Australia. Do they have to give up their Chinese identity in Australia? We expect them to keep their Chinese names, we expect them to keep their Buddhist or whatever religions they have (except if they want to voluntarily marry Muslims), we expect them to keep celebrating Chinese New Year and Chap Go Meh, we expect them to continue eating using chopsticks if they like it, we expect them to continue eating pork, etc, etc. All we ask is that they integrate. Sending their kids to national schools to mingle with Malay kids is one good way to integrate.
Now, Malays must integrate into Chinese culture although Malays are natives while Chinese are immigrant descendants who come to live in the midst of Malays! I come to your house, you are the host, I am the guest, but you the host must integrate into my ways of the guest.
And now you want people married to Malay Muslims to be allowed to eat pork too for national integration! Despite having lived in Malaysia for years before migrating to Australia, you still can't figure out that pork is haram to Muslims, including to the spouse who converted to Islam to marry the Muslim. You still insist on Muslims and their children eating pork!
In Malaysia, no non-Muslim has ever been forced to marrry a Muslim. And the non-Muslim damn well knows that if he/she wants to marry a Muslim, he/she has to convert to Islam, otherwise he/she is free not to enter into the marriage. And if the marriage takes place, pork is definitely forbidden as it is haram in Islam.
But all Chinese, Indian, Western, Iban, Kadazan or Dayak cuisines are halal and allowed for consumption by Muslims as long as these cuisines are halal and do not contain pork or any "unhalal" product. Malays themselves these days enjoy eating Chinese foods like yong tau foo, char kue tiaw, Hainan chicken rice, etc. Why, Malays even serve and sell these food themselves! All as long as these fods are halal.
We Muslims eat all foods that originate from non-Muslims...hamburgers, hotdogs, pizza, yong tau foo, char kue tiaw, putu mayam, masalode, etc for as long as they are halal.
But extremists like swingdoctor wants Malays to eat pork in order to achieve national integration without even caring for the sensitivities of the Muslims. That's why I call you an extremist and a chauvinist.
And no, we Malays are not asking Chinese to give up their Chinese identity in order to assimilate: we expect them to integrate in Malaysia just the way they integrate in Australia. Do they have to give up their Chinese identity in Australia? We expect them to keep their Chinese names, we expect them to keep their Buddhist or whatever religions they have (except if they want to voluntarily marry Muslims), we expect them to keep celebrating Chinese New Year and Chap Go Meh, we expect them to continue eating using chopsticks if they like it, we expect them to continue eating pork, etc, etc. All we ask is that they integrate. Sending their kids to national schools to mingle with Malay kids is one good way to integrate.
You see this is the point I was making, in Malaysia many Malays see non Malays as "foreignesrs" so they think well, why should I change when I was here first. Integration works both ways, if you want people to integrate, you have to be prepared to integrate yourself. Why should non Malays change when you don't want to? I'm sorry I forgot, in your opinion its because of "Ketuan Melayu", You wanted to know the difference between preseving Malay culture and Malay Supramecy, well this is an example of Malay supremacy. The silly thing is that culture changes, you think what, Malay culture today is the same as Malay culture 100 yrs ago? The simple fact that you want other people to change to suit you but you have made a concious decision that you don't have to change becasue you are "Malay" is the perfect example of Malay Supremacy. And this is the difference in Austalia and Malaysia, the "white" Australians so many of you have spoken about and criticised, actually open themselves up to the possibility of change, and therefor it has happened gradually, and "Australian Culture" will continue to evolve as long as new migrants come to this country.
I'm not calling for Muslims to eat pork, I defy you to show me where I have said that. What I am saying is that there are laws in Malaysia which prohibit integration and the primary one is non Malays having to change religions and essentially become Malays were they to marry a Malay. Marriage is one of the primary ways that people of different races integrate, the other is at school and I will get to that later. In Malaysia if a non Malay were to marry a Malay, they would have to essentially give up their idnetity and if they were to have children, it could eventuate that other Muslims have more rights over their children then they do. This would prohibit alot of inter racial marriages.
Coming back to schools, I have agreed with you in the past that children should all go to sekolah kebangsaan. You on the other hand want vernacular schools to go but you defend Islamic Schools staying. So in otherwords you feel that non Malays need to learn to live with Malays, but Malays don't have to reciprocate it. If you wan tto argue that there is nothing stopping non Malays attending an Islamic school, I would also argue there is nothing stopping Malays attending vernacular schools. To argue that for national unity vernacular schools need to go but Islamic Schools can stay is hypocritical. AND I CHALLANGE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG. Another point is that when a parent makes the decision to bring a child into this world, they are accepting the responsibility to provide for them the best that they can, including the best education. This is a parents responsibility, we all know that vernacular schools provide a better education for students such that the number of Malay enrolements to these schools as far as I understand are also increasing. So for vernacualr schools to go, the govnt 1) needs to improve the standard of teachings in public schools and 2) open up the best public schools to everyone. You cannot say to a parent I want you to send your kids to a Sekolah Kebangsaan but, I am reserving the best pubilc schools for myself and my children. Because if you say this, in effect you are saying that "Ketuan Melayu" is more important then Malaysian Unity, is this an example of preserving Malay rights or Malay Supremecy? I have my view what is yours?
You want Chinese to integrate into Malaysia the way they have integrated here, guess wha,t I want that to happen to but for them to integrate its more then just sending them to the same schools, its also creating a national environment where people can integrate, and the first step to that is everybody being treated equally.
Finally since I have never called for Muslims to eat pork, I guess I have neither "hurt Muslim sensitivities" nor an I an extremist or a chauvinist. You interpreted my words wrongly. You on the otherhand, despite what you may want to believe are a Malay Supremist.
Zaid says racialist social contract a 1980s Umno creation
KUALA LUMPUR, Oct 31 — If at all there was a social contract between the Malays and non-Malays before independence, it was the guarantee of equality and the promise of the rule of law, said former de facto Law Minister Datuk Zaid Ibrahim.
Offering his take on an issue that has been at the core of a roiling debate in the country, he said that the more racialist social contract — which places more emphasis on Malay primacy — was a product of Umno ideologues in the 1980s.
He believed that on the eve of independence, one of the elements which gave Alliance leaders and all Malayans confidence was the knowledge that "a constitutional arrangement that accorded full respect and dignity for each and every Malayan, entrenched the rule of law and established a democratic framework for government had been put in place.''
The Federal Constitution, he noted, was crafted by brilliant jurists who understood the hearts of minds of those who would call this nation their home and whose children would call it their motherland.
"Hundreds of hours of meetings with representatives of all quarters resulted in a unique written constitution that cemented a compact between nine sultanates and former crown territories, '' he said.
This compact honoured the Malay Rulers, Islam, the special status of the Malays, and created an environment for the harmonious and equal coexistence of all communities through the guarantee of freedoms, he noted in a speech at the Lawasia conference today.
This social contract was unilaterally restructured in the 1980s by "a certain segment of the BN leadership that allowed for developments that have resulted in our current state of affairs,'' said Zaid.
"The non-Malay BN component parties were perceived by Umno to be weak and in no position to exert influence. Bandied about by Umno ideologues, the social contract took on a different, more racialist tone. The essence of its reconstructed meaning was this: that Malaya is primarily the home of the Malays, and that the non-Malays should acknowledge that primacy by showing deference to the Malays and Malay issues. Also, Malay interest and consent must be allowed to set the terms for the definition and exercise of non-Malay citizenship and political rights. This marked the advent of Ketuanan Melayu or, in English, Malay Supremacy.
"Affirmative action and special status became a matter of privilege by reference to race rather than of need and questioning of this new status quo was not to be tolerated.
"The new political philosophy in which the primacy of Malay interests was for all purposes and intents the raison d'ętre of government naturally led to interference with key institutions, '' he said.
He urged the Barisan Nasional government to abandon the reworked concept of the social contract and embrace "a fresh perspective borne out of discussions and agreements made in good faith with all the communities in this country.''
In his speech, Zaid also touched on:
• Democracy, the rule of law and Umno
"Mukhriz Mahathir will probably be the new Umno Youth leader. In saying as he did recently that there is no need for law and judicial reforms as it will not benefit the Malays, he typifies what is perceived as the kind of Umno leader who appeals to the right wing of Malay polity.
"That he may be right is sad as it leads to the ossification of values that will only work against the interests of the party and the nation. This type of thinking may pave the way to a suggestion in the future that we may as well do away with general elections altogether as they may not be good for the Malays. We are a deeply divided nation, adrift for our having abandoned democratic traditions and the rule of law in favour of a political ideology that serves no one save those who rule.''
• The transition to democracy in Indonesia
"The majority of Indonesians have embraced democracy, religious tolerance, and religious pluralism. In addition, a vibrant civil society has initiated public discussions on the nature of democracy, the separation of religion and state, women's rights, and human rights more generally. These developments have contributed to a gradual improvement in conditions for human rights, including religious freedom, over the past few years. Since 2003, Indonesia has also overtaken Malaysia on the Reporters sans Fronteres Press Freedom Index, moving up from 110th place to 100th out of 169 countries covered. Malaysia on the other hand has dropped from 104th place to 124th place in the same period. I am not surprised. In 1999, Indonesia passed a new press law that, in repealing two previous Suharto administration laws, guaranteed free press through the introduction of crucial measures. Progress has not stopped there. On April 3 this year, Indonesia passed its Freedom of Information Act. This latest law allows Indonesia's bureaucracy to be open to public scrutiny and compels government bodies to disclose information.''
• Nation building
"We have failed miserably in dealing with complex issues of society by resorting to a political culture of promoting fear and division amongst the people. The Ketuanan Melayu model has failed. It has resulted in waste of crucial resources, energy and time and has distracted from the real issues confronting the country. The obsession with the Ketuanan Melayu doctrine has in fact destroyed something precious in us. It makes us lose our sense of balance and fairness.”
• Malays and modernity
"Dr Mahathir was right to ask that Malays embrace modernity. He fell short of what we needed by focusing on the physical aspects of modernity. He was mistaken to think all that was needed to change the Malay mindset was science and technology. He should have also promoted the values of freedom, human rights and the respect of the law.”
• The Judiciary
"The courts must act with courage to protect the constitutionally-guaranteed rights of all citizens, even if to do so were to invoke the wrath of the government of the day. In PP vs Koh Wah Kuan (2007), a majority bench of the Federal Court chose to discard the doctrine of separation of powers as underlying the Federal Constitution apparently because the doctrine is not expressly provided for in the Constitution. This conclusion is mystifying as surely the court recognises that power corrupts absolutely and can thus be abused. If the courts are not about to intervene against such excesses who is? Checks and balance are what the separation of powers is about. Surely the apex court is not saying that the courts do not play a vital role in that regard?
"The rule of law has no meaning if judges, especially apex court judges, are not prepared to enter the fray in the struggle for the preservation of human rights and the fundamental liberties. To all our judges I say discard your political leanings and philosophy. Stick to justice in accordance with the law.
- The Malaysian Insider
KUALA LUMPUR, Oct 31 — If at all there was a social contract between the Malays and non-Malays before independence, it was the guarantee of equality and the promise of the rule of law, said former de facto Law Minister Datuk Zaid Ibrahim.
Offering his take on an issue that has been at the core of a roiling debate in the country, he said that the more racialist social contract — which places more emphasis on Malay primacy — was a product of Umno ideologues in the 1980s.
He believed that on the eve of independence, one of the elements which gave Alliance leaders and all Malayans confidence was the knowledge that "a constitutional arrangement that accorded full respect and dignity for each and every Malayan, entrenched the rule of law and established a democratic framework for government had been put in place.''
The Federal Constitution, he noted, was crafted by brilliant jurists who understood the hearts of minds of those who would call this nation their home and whose children would call it their motherland.
"Hundreds of hours of meetings with representatives of all quarters resulted in a unique written constitution that cemented a compact between nine sultanates and former crown territories, '' he said.
This compact honoured the Malay Rulers, Islam, the special status of the Malays, and created an environment for the harmonious and equal coexistence of all communities through the guarantee of freedoms, he noted in a speech at the Lawasia conference today.
This social contract was unilaterally restructured in the 1980s by "a certain segment of the BN leadership that allowed for developments that have resulted in our current state of affairs,'' said Zaid.
"The non-Malay BN component parties were perceived by Umno to be weak and in no position to exert influence. Bandied about by Umno ideologues, the social contract took on a different, more racialist tone. The essence of its reconstructed meaning was this: that Malaya is primarily the home of the Malays, and that the non-Malays should acknowledge that primacy by showing deference to the Malays and Malay issues. Also, Malay interest and consent must be allowed to set the terms for the definition and exercise of non-Malay citizenship and political rights. This marked the advent of Ketuanan Melayu or, in English, Malay Supremacy.
"Affirmative action and special status became a matter of privilege by reference to race rather than of need and questioning of this new status quo was not to be tolerated.
"The new political philosophy in which the primacy of Malay interests was for all purposes and intents the raison d'ętre of government naturally led to interference with key institutions, '' he said.
He urged the Barisan Nasional government to abandon the reworked concept of the social contract and embrace "a fresh perspective borne out of discussions and agreements made in good faith with all the communities in this country.''
In his speech, Zaid also touched on:
• Democracy, the rule of law and Umno
"Mukhriz Mahathir will probably be the new Umno Youth leader. In saying as he did recently that there is no need for law and judicial reforms as it will not benefit the Malays, he typifies what is perceived as the kind of Umno leader who appeals to the right wing of Malay polity.
"That he may be right is sad as it leads to the ossification of values that will only work against the interests of the party and the nation. This type of thinking may pave the way to a suggestion in the future that we may as well do away with general elections altogether as they may not be good for the Malays. We are a deeply divided nation, adrift for our having abandoned democratic traditions and the rule of law in favour of a political ideology that serves no one save those who rule.''
• The transition to democracy in Indonesia
"The majority of Indonesians have embraced democracy, religious tolerance, and religious pluralism. In addition, a vibrant civil society has initiated public discussions on the nature of democracy, the separation of religion and state, women's rights, and human rights more generally. These developments have contributed to a gradual improvement in conditions for human rights, including religious freedom, over the past few years. Since 2003, Indonesia has also overtaken Malaysia on the Reporters sans Fronteres Press Freedom Index, moving up from 110th place to 100th out of 169 countries covered. Malaysia on the other hand has dropped from 104th place to 124th place in the same period. I am not surprised. In 1999, Indonesia passed a new press law that, in repealing two previous Suharto administration laws, guaranteed free press through the introduction of crucial measures. Progress has not stopped there. On April 3 this year, Indonesia passed its Freedom of Information Act. This latest law allows Indonesia's bureaucracy to be open to public scrutiny and compels government bodies to disclose information.''
• Nation building
"We have failed miserably in dealing with complex issues of society by resorting to a political culture of promoting fear and division amongst the people. The Ketuanan Melayu model has failed. It has resulted in waste of crucial resources, energy and time and has distracted from the real issues confronting the country. The obsession with the Ketuanan Melayu doctrine has in fact destroyed something precious in us. It makes us lose our sense of balance and fairness.”
• Malays and modernity
"Dr Mahathir was right to ask that Malays embrace modernity. He fell short of what we needed by focusing on the physical aspects of modernity. He was mistaken to think all that was needed to change the Malay mindset was science and technology. He should have also promoted the values of freedom, human rights and the respect of the law.”
• The Judiciary
"The courts must act with courage to protect the constitutionally-guaranteed rights of all citizens, even if to do so were to invoke the wrath of the government of the day. In PP vs Koh Wah Kuan (2007), a majority bench of the Federal Court chose to discard the doctrine of separation of powers as underlying the Federal Constitution apparently because the doctrine is not expressly provided for in the Constitution. This conclusion is mystifying as surely the court recognises that power corrupts absolutely and can thus be abused. If the courts are not about to intervene against such excesses who is? Checks and balance are what the separation of powers is about. Surely the apex court is not saying that the courts do not play a vital role in that regard?
"The rule of law has no meaning if judges, especially apex court judges, are not prepared to enter the fray in the struggle for the preservation of human rights and the fundamental liberties. To all our judges I say discard your political leanings and philosophy. Stick to justice in accordance with the law.
- The Malaysian Insider
QUOTE(MsiaLove @ Oct 18 2008, 09:37 AM) [snapback]3971899[/snapback]
i will not defend the culprits in malay community who intentionally misuse the privileges.I wont.Becoz it is useless.
We had to get rid of them first.That is why i was not totally against DaP or Anwar or Hindraf.Because i believes they will be the wake up call for those culprits.Stop betraying your own people,folks.
the one who defend privileges,like esfan is minority.we had so many to against the system,even our very own Malays!
So,dont worry.u are majority.keep arguing.
We had to get rid of them first.That is why i was not totally against DaP or Anwar or Hindraf.Because i believes they will be the wake up call for those culprits.Stop betraying your own people,folks.
the one who defend privileges,like esfan is minority.we had so many to against the system,even our very own Malays!
So,dont worry.u are majority.keep arguing.
You sound like a reasonable guy. If we agree to go after the culprits regardless of race and fight to get rid of them whether they be Chinese billionaires, political bigshots or "Raja-raja Melayu", then all arguments end. In that harmony, there is no need for man-made social contracts other than our contract with God to love one another and not to argue and fight.
Do you agree?
QUOTE(kumanddie @ Oct 31 2008, 09:20 PM) [snapback]3990504[/snapback]
Siapa jadi Raja , tengok nie :-
http://www.apfn.org/APFN/illuminati.htm
http://www.apfn.org/APFN/illuminati.htm
What's your point?
QUOTE(yiming2000 @ Nov 1 2008, 10:32 AM) [snapback]3990518[/snapback]
What's your point?
fu-ker, don't be stupid. You need 2 hours to watch this video. Now you response only in 2 min.
The point is open your mind and analyse. Don't simply talk without using your damned brain. watch the video, fu-ker.
QUOTE(kumanddie @ Oct 31 2008, 09:43 PM) [snapback]3990523[/snapback]
fu-ker, don't be stupid. You need 2 hours to watch this video. Now you response only in 2 min.
The point is open your mind and analyse. Don't simply talk without using your damned brain. watch the video, fu-ker.
The point is open your mind and analyse. Don't simply talk without using your damned brain. watch the video, fu-ker.
You want me to watch the video? I opened your link and have seen this kind of claptrap before on the internet. Do you have a point of view of your own? I want to see how you defend it. Why so angry and defensive? Are you scared of me?
QUOTE(kumanddie @ Oct 31 2008, 09:20 PM) [snapback]3990504[/snapback]
Siapa jadi Raja , tengok nie :-
http://www.apfn.org/APFN/illuminati.htm
http://www.apfn.org/APFN/illuminati.htm
I agree with yiming2000, who is going to waste time and download space by downloading such a large file, just tell us what you see the point of this video, if we distrust you then we will endeavour to watch the whole video. Besides it looks like a political website.
Zain, the ex-Minister of Justice at Prime Minister Office, is a turd. He was once convicted involved in money politics (aka BRIBERY) during UMNO election, heck, he even loses in previous GE.
Only by grace of Pak Lah, that misbegotten turd become Senator, & appointed as Minister. Of course, that turd now become non-Malay stooge for now.
Guess who's being paying him top dollars for criticising Malays, eh?
His words are not worth any salt nowadays, from his own track record.
Only by grace of Pak Lah, that misbegotten turd become Senator, & appointed as Minister. Of course, that turd now become non-Malay stooge for now.
Guess who's being paying him top dollars for criticising Malays, eh?
His words are not worth any salt nowadays, from his own track record.
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Nov 1 2008, 04:25 PM) [snapback]3991349[/snapback]
I agree with yiming2000, who is going to waste time and download space by downloading such a large file, just tell us what you see the point of this video, if we distrust you then we will endeavour to watch the whole video. Besides it looks like a political website.
You are damn right. Kumanddie's behavior is a frightening depiction of what the Malay mentality is like. Only a Malay could react the way he did simply because his wish was not complied with. Does he realize what a heavy demand he is making of me? Two hours of my time? Obviously he doesn't. And he doesn't care. As long as I so much as balk at his imposition, he gets angry and wants to bathe his kris in my blood. That's the way he runs Malaysia. The likes of him have no idea why the non-Malays - who have been suffering his kind for 50 years - are b!tching about this infamous Social Contract of his. That Contract was drawn up with the intent of enabling Kumanddie to get off his @$$ and pull along with the rest of the nation. It is not to give him a set of "Prince of the Earth" privileges to use other people to do his thinking for him so that he can remain a retard.
This is an international forum. No special privileges enshrined in the Constitution here. Any Malay who wants a discussion without doing his own thinking in Malaysia Chat is going to get his head splattered on the wall by me.
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Nov 2 2008, 08:29 AM) [snapback]3992083[/snapback]
Zain, the ex-Minister of Justice at Prime Minister Office, is a turd. He was once convicted involved in money politics (aka BRIBERY) during UMNO election, heck, he even loses in previous GE.
Only by grace of Pak Lah, that misbegotten turd become Senator, & appointed as Minister. Of course, that turd now become non-Malay stooge for now.
Guess who's being paying him top dollars for criticising Malays, eh?
His words are not worth any salt nowadays, from his own track record.
Only by grace of Pak Lah, that misbegotten turd become Senator, & appointed as Minister. Of course, that turd now become non-Malay stooge for now.
Guess who's being paying him top dollars for criticising Malays, eh?
His words are not worth any salt nowadays, from his own track record.
I googled him and couldn't find any reference to any bribery case.
All I've found is that he believes that there should be reform in the judiciary system in Malaysia and resigned in protest at the use of the ISA recently, which tells me he is a man who is prepared to stand by his principles.
Contrary to what you've said above, reading more about this man has led me to respect him more.
Beisdes he is correct about the Social Contract, if you think his comments are wrong, tell us in what way.
QUOTE(swingdoctor @ Nov 4 2008, 08:13 AM) [snapback]3994614[/snapback]
All I've found is that he believes that there should be reform in the judiciary system in Malaysia and resigned in protest at the use of the ISA recently, which tells me he is a man who is prepared to stand by his principles.
Contrary to what you've said above, reading more about this man has led me to respect him more.
Beisdes he is correct about the Social Contract, if you think his comments are wrong, tell us in what way.
Contrary to what you've said above, reading more about this man has led me to respect him more.
Beisdes he is correct about the Social Contract, if you think his comments are wrong, tell us in what way.
Yes, we would like to know in what way Zaid was wrong about the so-called Social Contract. From my research, the British knew that after they relinquished government control, a free-for-all, survival-of-the-fittest meritocratic Malaysia would mean the end of the Malays because they were weaker. To allay Malay fears, the British, presided over the framing of Article 153 of the Malaysian Constitution to protect the Malays from being rubbed out by the more capable non-Malays. That protection, in the form of political privileges, was meant to be effective for only 15 years to enable the Malays to catch up. At the end of that period, in 1972, the Malay-controlled Alliance government, ignored the deadline and disregarded the original intent of Article 153 of the Constitution. They re-interpreted the Constitution in the way that Zaid clarified, and assume the position of "Tuans" of Malaysia . The British used to be the Tuans under whom the Malays served in the goverment service. So, now the Malays are the colonial masters. Monkey see monkey do. And they will bathe their kerises in your blood if you take a peek at Article 153 and ask questions.
QUOTE
All I've found is that he believes that there should be reform in the judiciary system in Malaysia and resigned in protest at the use of the ISA recently, which tells me he is a man who is prepared to stand by his principles.
You think UMNO would dirtied their laundry online. Hullloooooooo, once upon a time, UMNO controlled all forms of media. Besides, an UMNO branch leader found guilty of money politics within UMNO internal election is hardly big news.
If you understand a speck of Malay, try go through past news regarding UMNO in major Malay newspapers. You bound to stumbled upon juicier stories, like Zaid's case.
QUOTE
Beisdes he is correct about the Social Contract, if you think his comments are wrong, tell us in what way.
Liberalising NEP, well, I'll go for that. But touching or even questioning on Malay political strangehold, Malay & Islamic priviledges as enshrined in MY Constitution, I vehemently opposed.
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Nov 4 2008, 10:10 PM) [snapback]3995327[/snapback]
You think UMNO would dirtied their laundry online. Hullloooooooo, once upon a time, UMNO controlled all forms of media. Besides, an UMNO branch leader found guilty of money politics within UMNO internal election is hardly big news.
If you understand a speck of Malay, try go through past news regarding UMNO in major Malay newspapers. You bound to stumbled upon juicier stories, like Zaid's case.
Liberalising NEP, well, I'll go for that. But touching or even questioning on Malay political strangehold, Malay & Islamic priviledges as enshrined in MY Constitution, I vehemently opposed.
If you understand a speck of Malay, try go through past news regarding UMNO in major Malay newspapers. You bound to stumbled upon juicier stories, like Zaid's case.
Liberalising NEP, well, I'll go for that. But touching or even questioning on Malay political strangehold, Malay & Islamic priviledges as enshrined in MY Constitution, I vehemently opposed.
Could you at least give me a hint on when it occured because to be honest I spent the greater part of an hour looking for cases of bribery against him.
I don't think that any one race should have a birthright on Malaysian politics, I hope that politics would not be so racially alligned. Having said that, in Malaysia politics are racially aligned and since Malays make up 60% of the population, they can never be marginalised. The problem though is that in the quest to protect themselves, Malays are marginalising non Malays. As Malays(I really should say UMNO) demand that non Malays respect their sensitivities, I would hope that Malays would also consider the impact of the decisions that they make, have on non Malays. Remember though the reason Malaysian politics is so racially aligned is because of UMNO, the question that needs to be asked is that is this good for Malaysia.
WRT Islam, I feel that Islam should be the official religion but not the state and like racial issues I don't believe that Islam should be able to do whatever it wants irrespective of the impact it has on other religions.
The character of a person is reflected in the decisions they make when in power. Do they do the right thing and consider everybody's needs when making a decision or simply themselves and their needs.
To me stepping down in protest at the obvious misuse of the ISA, speaks volumes of this mans character.
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Nov 4 2008, 11:10 PM) [snapback]3995327[/snapback]
You think UMNO would dirtied their laundry online. Hullloooooooo, once upon a time, UMNO controlled all forms of media. Besides, an UMNO branch leader found guilty of money politics within UMNO internal election is hardly big news.
All forms of media in Malaysia is still supressed in the same way it was once upon a time.
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Nov 4 2008, 11:10 PM) [snapback]3995327[/snapback]
If you understand a speck of Malay, try go through past news regarding UMNO in major Malay newspapers. You bound to stumbled upon juicier stories, like Zaid's case.
Zaid is a good man. Malay newspapers have no credibility. They are all UMNO mouthpieces.
QUOTE(Protoculture @ Nov 4 2008, 11:10 PM) [snapback]3995327[/snapback]
Liberalising NEP, well, I'll go for that. But touching or even questioning on Malay political strangehold, Malay & Islamic priviledges as enshrined in MY Constitution, I vehemently opposed.
Your opposition has no weight. As long as your Malay politicians stay corrupt and incapable of uplifting the Malays, their social problems such as poverty, drug-addiction and crime will get worse. Illegal immigrants will swarm in to increase the more than a million now in Malaysia. And the more people excluded from your privileges, the more dangerous it will be for you.
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